Who is the middle class???

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/15/2008 3:30:03 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 10/15/2008 3:26:36 PM

Author: decodelighted

Date: 10/15/2008 3:10:22 PM

Author: Haven

What I don't understand is how consumers who make choices to live beyond their means could be considered upper middle class when in the long run they are not doing a thing to secure their lifestyle.

I see what you're saying but I still think they'd still generally be considered 'upper middle class' if their income was $200k, no matter the outflow -- they just, sadly, have a much higher likelihood of one day being at 'poverty level' due to the short-sighted/frivolous choices they are making with their CURRENT income.


It would be interesting to see how our current 'class' system would be shaken up if they were determined by NET WORTH.

Deco--You hit it spot on, I think I take issue with considering a family UMC when their 'status' as UMC is so fragile due to their choices. I also suppose that I would be more comfortable including net worth in the definition, as well.

However, that considered, I do see how they could be considered UMC for the time being.


Thanks for putting up with all of my long-winded responses. I'll process my thoughts before I post them next time.

I think at least my reasoning for calling them UMC is because they are ABLE to make choices to spend their money in the manner they are. If they aren't UMC, what are they? Working "poor"? And by that definition should they be helped because they can't sustain their current lifestyle on their own? When you think about it that way I think it's quite clear that they are still UMC, they are just making different (and often poor long run choices) choices about how to spend their $...


I don't think it's fair to call them less than UMC because then we aren't differentiating between people who are making $200k from people making $50k, and their choice sets are VERY different at those levels. And IMO one of those groups is deserving of more help if they need it than the other.

And don't apologize silly!

 

[katamari]

Looking at net worth is when the crazy inequality starts becoming evident. The median net worth is 0. The top 5% here have more than the bottom 95%. So, to answer your earlier question, Haven, there are people who earn incredible salaries or have massive amounts of wealth, but it certainly isn''t the common American experience.

I also don''t think this is a product of individual decisions alone, but structural factors, too like the labor market and the banking industry (but I am the sociologist, after all).

I wholeheartedly recommend reading "Falling Behind" by Robert Frank, "Post Industrial Peasants" by Kevin Leicht, and "The Fragile Middle Class" by Theresa Sullivan for anyone who is really interested in changes in the middle class.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 10/15/2008 2:39:50 PM
Author: neatfreak


This is not directed at MC AT ALL, but there are MANY people who consider themselves ''just getting by'' and make lots of money. Why? Because they make choices about WHERE to live, WHAT to consume, and HOW BIG of a house to have. Just because you make those choices to extend yourself and therefore are ''just getting by'' doesn''t mean that you still aren''t upper middle class...

One of the biggest choices we can make is where we live. And by ''where'' I mean not only city and state but also neighborhood. Those choices then impact what else we can purchase with our money.

It''s all about our personal choices and perspective on it.

We''ve changed our choice in where to live in that now we live in a condo/townhome so we''re not ones over-extending ourselves. My idea of "getting ahead" may be different from others. We''re not living month-to-month, but we do not have as much saving as I would like to have. I''m looking for a PT job now and ALL of that money will go into savings! That is MY view on moving on up in the world.

I realize this thread has gone way beyond the original post I made, but I wanted to point that out as there is always a slight need to defend ones self when their name is brought up in subsequent posts.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/15/2008 7:55:42 PM
Author: MC

Date: 10/15/2008 2:39:50 PM

Author: neatfreak



This is not directed at MC AT ALL, but there are MANY people who consider themselves ''just getting by'' and make lots of money. Why? Because they make choices about WHERE to live, WHAT to consume, and HOW BIG of a house to have. Just because you make those choices to extend yourself and therefore are ''just getting by'' doesn''t mean that you still aren''t upper middle class...


One of the biggest choices we can make is where we live. And by ''where'' I mean not only city and state but also neighborhood. Those choices then impact what else we can purchase with our money.


It''s all about our personal choices and perspective on it.

We''ve changed our choice in where to live in that now we live in a condo/townhome so we''re not ones over-extending ourselves. My idea of ''getting ahead'' may be different from others. We''re not living month-to-month, but we do not have as much saving as I would like to have. I''m looking for a PT job now and ALL of that money will go into savings! That is MY view on moving on up in the world.

I realize this thread has gone way beyond the original post I made, but I wanted to point that out as there is always a slight need to defend ones self when their name is brought up in subsequent posts.

As I said, it wasn''t directed at you, I wanted to make sure you knew that since your quote had gotten tangled up in my post.

 

[Haven]

Neatfreak--Your illustration that people with 200K+ income have different choices than those with 50K income is perfect. I totally understand that distinction, and have to amend my earlier conception of what it means to be upper middle class in America.

katamari--Your insight into all of this has been incredibly interesting. Thank you for the book references, I will certainly look into them.

MC--I remember your previous threads about changing your lifestyle and home so you could live even more comfortably within your means. I was most definitely not referring to you in my earlier posts. I really admire the way you''re raising your children (from what I have read in your posts) and I certainly hope I didn''t offend. That was not my intent at all.

I''m so interested in this thread, thanks all for your contributions.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Neatfreak and Haven - all is cool. I just wanted to be clear to anyone reading these posts that my family made our own personal decisions to make life more manageable and we''re working to have a future rather than be stuck like so many others in the cycle of debt and crazy monster mortgages. I''m proud of our decision, but I have to say socially, it''s difficult to have moved "down" in lifestyle to move "up" in security if you know what I mean? We struggled to sell our expensive house and traded it for a small pmt on a condo townhome, yet most don''t see that as a stepping stone toward a future with a nice retirement. They just see that we don''t have it all, like they do

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 10/15/2008 11:29:00 PM
Author: MC
We struggled to sell our expensive house and traded it for a small pmt on a condo townhome, yet most don't see that as a stepping stone toward a future with a nice retirement. They just see that we don't have it all, like they do

Give 'em time. They'll catch up to you!

You're just an early adopter! And .... pssst .... I doubt they really "have it all" unless by "all" you mean crushing debt/little savings/compulsion to be showy.

 

[jewelerman]

Date: 10/15/2008 11:46:07 AM
Author: MC

Date: 10/12/2008 10:12:23 PM
Author: jewelerman
It varies from state to state....according to university of Utah data ...if you make $35,000 you are middle class...at 45,000 you are starting the climb to upper middle class...

See, I do not see $35,000 as middle class, but still in the working class category. In the school district my kids are in, that yearly salary qualifies a family with two kids for free/reduced school lunches! I would think a middle class family can afford to buy or provide sack lunches for their kids.

My dh and I are in the upper middle class, yet, I''m not sporting new diamonds and we are getting by, but not getting ahead.

Things are simply too expensive these days and we''re trying to stick to a budget so we can have savings. We don''t eat out anymore and our main ''treat'' when we go out is a few microbrews and a movie.

I agree that 35,000 should be below middle class but the great state of utah has put that figure in place...so many companies can come into the area and under pay its employees...and so state benifits are harder to come by.