What To Do With A Liar???

[iLander]

So I'm not sure to make of this from DS and DIL. It's kind of a long story.

When DS moved out, he took a couple of paintings from our home. We're fine with that, but he didn't mention it, and we were a little surprised to see them on his wall of his apartment. We pointed them out, and we all briefly chatted about them with DS.

Fast forward a couple of years, DS moves in with DIL (then girlfriend). There are no paintings on the wall when we visit. A couple of days later, DH and I ask DS about them, DS claims he never had any paintings. Nope, he has no idea what we're talking about. How strange that we would think that, he has no idea where they are. We are mystified by this response, we all (including DD) saw them on the wall.

Fast forward again, to this past Thanksgiving. As DS and DIL are leaving, they ask me to come to the car with them. There are the paintings! I take them out of the trunk, carry them into the garage. They drive off without saying a word. We are all floored by this.

A few days later, we meet up with them. I ask them what the deal is, that they previously said they didn't have them. Pleasant tone, just curious, not accusatory. Both DS and DIL deny that they ever said that. Of course they had them, why would they say they didn't have them? Maybe I remembered incorrectly? DH told me later that my mouth was just hanging open in disbelief. I just changed the subject and let it go.

The only thing I can conclude is that they are both just plain lying to us, and don't seem to have any problem with that. This wouldn't be the first time, they seem to do it a lot. One weekend we invited them over, but they said they had 3 weddings to attend. Three? Really? On the same weekend? But we didn't say anything, just let it go. They are both loners, and I'm not sure they actually know 3 people. When we met DIL she said she had a Master's degree, which turned out to not be true. There's a TON of little things like this, and they never seem to flinch when they are lying.

It hurts me that he is this way now, he didn't lie before he met DIL. I guess I shouldn't care, he's a grown up. I guess this is just how he is now? Should I just ignore it, or call him on the lies as they come up?

 

[amc80]

Should I just ignore it, or call him on the lies as they come up?

I'd be tempted to call them out every single time, but chance are they'd just turn it back on you and say you're mistaken and/or crazy. The best would be if you could get hard proof...like a text or voice mail or email. Then you could whip it out the next time there's an inconsistency. Sounds like a rough situation.

 

[SB621]

This one is hard for me as I have a soft spot for my son. But you bet your boot straps I would say something to him. I might not call him out for lying as I woudln't want to create more drama. But I would say I was disappointed with how he handled it and leave it at that. If he wants to address it more perhaps you can. I would do it when I had him alone for a bit of time so we could sit down and have an adult conversation about it if he wanted.

 

[JewelFreak]

Oh gosh, iLander; this has been such a hard thing for you all along. I can empathize because, as I told you earlier, my brother became really hostile to our parents after marrying SIL, who is a b***h; even their kids have little good to say for her. Gave Mom profound grief. You too, I'm sure.

I think SB's suggestion is about the best path. Does his wife let him see you without her? If so, that's the time to mention it -- and SB's wording is great, that you're disappointed. In a perhaps sad tone but not accusatory, so as to keep drama & self-defenses down. Maybe ask why he doesn't feel he can tell you the truth, when you always had an honest relationship, what changed? If she's always along with him & you can't get him into another room, it would be a judgment call as to whether to speak up or not.

Of course you should care; you can't not. He's your kid. Other than this, I don't know what there is to do about it, though. We all have our roads to travel, but when you watch your child choose the wrong one, it's a heartbreaker. Hugs & dust.

--- Laurie

 

[ame]

I have little or no tolerance for it, and I call it out all the time, especially stupid little stuff like that.

 

[House Cat]

I wouldn't say a word.

iLander, you have shared before how strained your relationship is with your son now that he is married. IF DIL is as crafty as you say she is, this could be bait.

Don't take it.

You know what went down with the paintings. Do you want to be right and have your son further estranged and fuel the fire that DIL has set or do you want to rise above this and begin to put this fire out?




There is a strong possibility that she won't be around forever. You have described her as controlling, lying, isolating, etc. But you need to preserve your relationship with your son for when it all falls apart. If he begins feels estranged from you too, he will cling to her more because he will feel that she is all that he has.

Just my thoughts from someone who was once there....

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Ilander,

Yes, your son lied about the paintings on the wall. I'm pretty sure she didn't like them or want them and so took them down. He was afraid to tell you that--mother vs wife. The easiest thing is to deny- or lie. My understanding is that men do this type of lying, you know the affair lie. He just couldn't tell you that his wife didn't want them. Stupid lie, but there it is. He hoped you had forgotten what he said.

At least he didn't throw them out. They were probably in a locker somewhere. No matter what, a child does care what their parents think. I think your DH should approach it , saying what SB suggested. Coming from a man it may mean more. Dad can say, 'We never thought you would lie over something like that" He may just continue with the lie. But you really knew that, You knew he took the paintings and had them but was not telling you what happened to them.

I have have some relatives who do that, but we all know it, and just accept it.


Annette

 

[lliang_chi]

This sounds like my father. It's "selective memory." He doesn't remember that he took the paintings, doesn't remember DIL said she had a masters' degree, doesn't remember x,y,z. You, iLander, *must* be mistaken/crazy/imagining things.

Best to just ignore it for small issues like these paintings etc. Figure out what your line in the sand is, E.g. they're watching your dog and your dog gets hurt etc.

 

[Enerchi]

oh iLander, I totally feel your pain - I'm living the same thing w my son. It is not easy and it hurts. Seeing this post gives me a little hope that I'm not the only one going thru this, so THANK YOU for posting this today.

My DS's GF has caught him in a few lies and he just lies further to get out of them! I know in our case (and I'm sure yours too) it wasn't how they were raised and its not something that we do (aside from the obligatory "no honey, your a$$ is *amazing* in those jeans...!! - LMAO!). We have called him out on somethings and we've let others just run their course.

I don't know what to say for advice because I don't think we are doing the right thing either... It *does* hurt because you love him and you look at him and still see the little boy in him - and it just tears you up inside. At least that's how I/we feel.

Maybe let the nuisance lies go but confront on the big ones? No matter what there will be fall out and you do have to pick which battle to fight. It could draw him more to DIL and end up driving a further wedge between you and him. I'm always so cautious of that when I get upset. I like the idea of trying to talk to him privately, if you can get him away from DIL, but sometimes, due to insecurities or whatever, its hard to see them one on one!

HUGS to you my friend, and I hope you get thru this as well as you can.... (((HUGS)))

 

[VRBeauty]

I'm just thinking out loud here...

I'm a big proponent of being honest and not keeping secrets within families, but I'm not sure forcing a discussion on the topic would be productive. Unless he's a lot more mature than his his actions would suggest, it would probably just make him defensive and widen the gap between you. On the other hand, I don't think it serves your relationship well if you play stupid either. So maybe a neutral comment that lets them know you're aware of the discrepancies without accusing him would be the way to go - something like "Thank you for returning these. I'm glad they turned up after all."

Looking at your situation from an optimist's perspective, it sounds to me like your not-so-dear DIL is very insecure and thus acting like a scared child who's afraid she'll be punished for her lies or looked down on for not being perfect (the master's degree and wedding invitations). Of course I could be way off base, and in any event I'm not sure what that suggests in terms of your reactions. I would say try to love her out of it, but I know from experience how difficult that can be.

 

[craighnt]

Hmmm, I have a sibling in my family that seems to have that same type of memory, all the valuable family stuff monetary or just sentimental value seem to end up in her house. I would not call her a liar because I think she truly believes her responses.

Of course the rest of us realize she have a very selective memory. We call her out on it but usually dose not good. Like "we gave you the box of photos the day of the wedding because you said you wanted to make copies" now you dont have them or renumber ever getting them? She will respond later by saying cant find anything to back up her story. She might even have tried looking.

Some people really have a selective memory. So that's why even though you saw the paintings on the wall, they cant remember you being there that day and looking at them in their house. This makes it easy for them to deny that they ever had them.

 

[movie zombie]

iLander, don't get too angry with me BUT scapegoating your DIL for behavioral changes your son has made is taking him off the hook for his own decisions and behaviors. and I'm betting there were some mistruths spoken prior to his relationship with her that you are not aware of.....people do not change their stripes that quickly. this is behavior he is comfortable with. if it he wasn't he would have said something [when returning the paintings] along the lines of, "I remembered you're thinking I had your paintings and while I don't remember having them I did look around and look what I found! I thought you'd appreciate getting them back." but he didn't.

either accept him as he is and as he is in this relationship or don't socialize with them.
you say they are loners.
perhaps they really want to be left alone.
do they initiate getting together?

my other thought is that you could just plain say, "I'm so glad you had a look around and found the paintings. I really do appreciate their return." and if he doesn't say anything, well, just let it be.

ps when he moved out and took the pictures w/o asking and not saying anything until you mentioned it: was this before he was dating your DIL? if so, well, I'm afraid you're overlooking his own character flaws.

 

[Circe]

You know, I have relatives with selective memory. They will forget anything that makes them look bad, and remember (and exaggerate) anything that makes other people look bad. (Curiously enough, this doesn't mean they remember the things that make them look good: it appears to be a purely negative filter.) They are exhausting.

But ... they're not thieves, and they're not ... stupid? ... for lack of a better word (I am sure your son and even your DIL are intelligent people). Maybe a better way to put it is that they don't think we are that stupid: they never do it with objectively investigated facts, i.e., they have your stuff, they "have" advanced degrees, etc. It's more a matter of spinning emotional narratives. I have no idea what is behind that.

But, how I deal with them? Whenever they do anything sufficiently ridiculous, I - gently - call them on it, (i.e., "Dear crazy relative, don't be ridiculous, that's not how that went down ... now have some tea.") It doesn't get combative, it's just to make it clear that they have their version, and I have the truth ... it may be vice versa from their perspective, but they can't settle in to a sense of having snowed me. But I think these things vary - my relatives feel invested in talking to me. They're not going to stop because I tell them they're full of it. Given that you sound a little uncertain about your DIL's commitment to family harmony at the best of times ... do you think it's worth risking?

 

[Karl_K]

I would just let it go.

 

[aljdewey]

There is nothing to be gained right now from focusing on it further.

You handled it, and apparently you handled it well because it resulted in the ultimate return of the paintings. Mission accomplished, but there's no point in rubbing their faces in behavior that isn't likely to change.

 

[erinl]

I am vehemently opposed to lying but having deal with liars in my family I would just say I guess I would just be happy I got them back....

And truthfully, even if the DIL is "a liar" it seems like in this case he is the one who lied to you. He is an adult and that is his action. You cannot blame all his actions on her. He is an active participant as a partner in his marriage and as a son to you. Even if she is crazy as hell and manipulates him he is still responsible for what he does and how he acts.

 

[perry]

Just let it be. You have nothing to gain by bringing it up; and potentially more to loose.

I also believe this may just be a case of selective memory. I don't remember all kinds of things that I don't consider important (or important at the time).

It is entirely possible that he did not know what happened to the paintings - or even that he ever had them when you asked if they were not that important to him. When he found them something triggered him to return them - and it is entirely plausible that he did not remember the previous conversation.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[MichelleCarmen]

If I'm reading this right, the paintings have been returned to you? If so, I'd drop any further conversation with them regarding the paintings AND I'd be sure to hid anything of value from them. Based on so little of info, all we know is there is the mystery surrounding the relocation of the paintings, and they were returned to you for a reason (be it them realizing they made a mistake or felt guilty), so rather than dwell on what happened, take the stance that your prized processions could potentially never be safe under certain circumstances and having a bolted safe for items you would be worried could be taken can be stored in when they're around.

 

[LLJsmom]

I can't stand liars. I call my son out now, my mother-in-law, my husband or anyone else who means anything to me. Lying to me is not treating me or yourself with respect.

If I see that this is continuing to happen, I would call them out. Why are you lying? Do you think I'm stupid? If you do, it's insulting. If you don't think I'm stupid and you really think this happened (or didn't happen) you have mental issues and should look for help.

And if they don't matter to me, I don't care. People can be as delusional as they want to be, except people that I care about and love and mean something to me.

 

[swingirl]

People lie to cover up things they say or do that they don't want to answer for when confronted. It's a way to protect themselves. No point in confronting your son. He will try to protect himself with another lie. There is someone like that in my family and the conversation can go in circles and there will never be an explanation or apology because they hardly know what they've done.

 

[arkieb1]

Were they worth any money the paintings? Is it possible he took them, liked them, hung them up, she didn't and was pressuring him to sell them which is why the second lot of lies happened? Maybe he didn't like that idea and then eventually gave them back to you.

I also think you should let it go, tough I know, but it might be worth it to navigate to a better relationship with him and to not have him side with her.

 

[Meezermom]

You now "have their number". I would let it go, and totally concur with House Cat. This daughter-in-law at some point is going to be history.

 

[iLander]

amc80, SB621, ame, LLJsmom That's the thing, I called them on the paintings and they acted like I was crazy. It was really strange, I almost believed them! No point in doing that again.

Laurie: I'm sad that your mom and family have this kind of thing going on. I now believe that she is an actual sociopath, and my son is following her lead. Which will not go well for the two of them.

HouseCat, aljdewey, : Agree, this is some kind of game (again!) and I just won't play.

smitcompton, KarlK, perry, arkieb1, : I'm going to just accept it and move on

lliang chi, craighnt, Circe, swingirl: I''m sorry to hear you have similar relatives, I believe that those with "selective memory" is a convenient excuse for sociopaths. Sociopaths truly believe any lie they are telling at the time, and don't have conscience issues about lying. I believe DS and DIL are heading into that territory.

Enerchi: Thank you for the hugs. I'm sorry you're going through this, I hope your son finds his way out of it.

VRBeauty: Oh, I don't think she's scared, she's a tough little chick. I'm going to let it drop

Mozo, erini: Oh, I know this wouldn't be happening without his okay, he's not an innocent lamb. He took the pictures 4 months after he started dating her, but that's no excuse.

HouseCat, Meezermom: It's possible, but he would never drop her, she would have to drop him. Which I feel is a strong possibility, considering the way she stares at cute guys.

MC: This brings up a whole other recent incident. I'm hesitant to bring it up , but suffice is to say DS tried to get us to transfer $50,000 into his bank account. We laughed it off, and said "no way", but it bothers me. I'm wondering if he returned the paintings to try to soften us up, he asked for the transfer just before they were returned.

 

[minousbijoux]

First off, I am so sorry to hear this. Being able to trust people close to us, especially our kids, is extremely important and its so hard to get there, sometimes. I am definitely sending you my biggest hugs, Mama, cuz I know how hard this is, especially for you, given how intuitive you are. But as a representative of the group whose memory is not entirely intact any more, I have to ask is it possible that some of these circumstances can be attributed less to duplicity and more to not paying attention to what he's saying/not remembering precisely what he has said? I don't know if that makes it any better, but I know I am guilty of that one often...

Of course, I thought of Enerchi immediately upon reading this and hope you take solace in knowing you by no means are alone.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

[

MC: This brings up a whole other recent incident. I'm hesitant to bring it up , but suffice is to say DS tried to get us to transfer $50,000 into his bank account. We laughed it off, and said "no way", but it bothers me. I'm wondering if he returned the paintings to try to soften us up, he asked for the transfer just before they were returned.

Yikes, that's quite a chunk of change for you to wire to them! Any idea what the money is needed for? Do they have jobs or did they get themselves into some sort of bind (do they gamble or something)? I'd for sure hide anything of value when they visit!

 

[VRBeauty]

[

MC: This brings up a whole other recent incident. I'm hesitant to bring it up , but suffice is to say DS tried to get us to transfer $50,000 into his bank account. We laughed it off, and said "no way", but it bothers me. I'm wondering if he returned the paintings to try to soften us up, he asked for the transfer just before they were returned.

I'd for sure hide anything of value when they visit!

That really changes things. Ditto MC, and... as painful as this would be for you, if you truly think they might be headed to sociopath territory, you should consider reducing contact with them.

 

[movie zombie]

[

MC: This brings up a whole other recent incident. I'm hesitant to bring it up , but suffice is to say DS tried to get us to transfer $50,000 into his bank account. We laughed it off, and said "no way", but it bothers me. I'm wondering if he returned the paintings to try to soften us up, he asked for the transfer just before they were returned.

I'd for sure hide anything of value when they visit!

That really changes things. Ditto MC, and... as painful as this would be for you, if you truly think they might be headed to sociopath territory, you should consider reducing contact with them.

wow, that really does change everything: at a minimum reduce contact and make sure valuables are safely locked up!
perhaps meet them at their place for social interactions.
or at event locations: restaurants, theaters, etc.

some how and in some way what is yours is seen as theirs. unless you draw the line in the sand now and hold to it things are going to get a lot worse.

there is absolutely no way I'd want them in my home even if he is a DS............

and interacting with them in their home may give you an indication of what the problem might [or not] be............

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,


I am going to assume they were not trying to steal the 50,000, but, wanted to show that amount for some credit item, so that they would get the item.--perhaps a new car, a home etc. Sometimes you need to show cash.

Of course, if its not that, you need to be careful, as others have suggested. And I would not , as a general rule, cosign or loan them any money.

I believe you are successful in your business, and this has caused your son to be overly optimistic as to what he can get or take.
He has moved out of your home and you can make new rules that he is not to remove anything from your home without your consent.

My brother has had to make his son ring the front door bell to enter his home. No more key. You are not alone. When my son was a teen and a young man, the lies kept coming. Now he just shakes his head and says he doesn't know why he lied so much. He doesn't anymore, so there is hope.


Annette

 

[movie zombie]

well, we all know what assumptions make of the assumer but I would have thought that when they asked for the $50k transfer they would have said what it was for.........most would. and if they feel entitled to $50k w/o explanations they should try and get a bank loan! is there anyone that loans $50k or simple gives $50k when asked w/o expecting an explanation?!

 

[iLander]

Mozo, VR, MC, smit: He said he wanted the money (which in a retirement fund and locked up tight. I can't even imagine the tax issues!) to get a credit card that offers cash back. He said would have gotten cash back + a bonus with that balance, even if it was a short term balance. BUT, later I looked up the specific card, and it would have required the balance to be continuous, and that balance's only benefit would be to eliminate the $75 annual fee. No bonus, so what was that?

WHY would I give him all that money just to save him $75? I think the reality is that he's jealous that we are paying for DD to go to a private college, and he barely got into an inexpensive state college. I think Mozo is right, he feels like he wants to get "his share".

DH said if we gave him that money "temporarily" we'd hear nothing but excuses for many years and never see it again.

The paintings were returned shortly after this crazy idea was proposed by DS.