Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fired!

[ericad]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Bee, AGAIN, there will be no government plan under The Affordable Care Act. There will be no government administration because there is NO UNIVERSAL PLAN. Where in the bill are you getting this information?

You can repeat the lies till you're blue in the face, but they are still lies. There is no government takeover of healthcare, no universal plan, no evil database for use by death panels, no Santa Claus and no Easter Bunny.

No, you're not obligated to point to the part of the plan that supports your claims, but if you want your claims to carry a shred of credibility, you'll point us to the text of the bill. Just because you believe something and are really good at repeating yourself, doesn't make it true.

I've actually read the bill and it and understand it. Have you?

Wow. Impressive considering the men and women that actually passed the bill never read it!

Since you have obviously spent an enormous amount of time getting through it, have extensive actuarial experience enough to comprehend it, and possess encyclopedic knowledge of exactly what's NOT in the bill I would assume you'd have some interest in enlightening all of us about what's IN the bill !

As you scream "LIES!" I can't help but notice that not a single "opinion" of yours is attached to a "fact"...you know, that little thing you seem to demand but are unwilling to part with yourself.

So please, feel free to educate us as to the intricacies of this bill. No problem that it's now way off topic and certainly no problem for me since my name won't be attached to it.

I have one other thing to add as an aside. As a "vendor" here on PS, it would probably behoove you to treat each and every member/poster as a potential customer. But that's just my opinion. I run my business differently.

1. I didn't scream at you.
2. I'm a business owner, yes, but that doesn't preclude me from becoming engaged in issues that are important to me. I thought we we're having a spirited debate, but if you're taking it so personally we can drop it.
3. You're correct that I didn't read the actual bill, I should have been more specific. I've read quite a lot of available information about the bill from multiple sources. I've read what's contained in the bill many many times.
4. Can you please point me to the component of the plan that specifies government takeover and Universal care? Because I've not come across it in all my research. A bullet point, a link to a summary of that item in the plan, something?

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

[quote="beebrisk|1332006118|3150878....."The greater good". Ah, there's the rub. Who decides that??
See, in my view the "greater good" would be served if everyone except those who must benefit from Title X would pay for their own damn Ortho Novom.[/quote]


bee, you've been asked questions that you have not answered re not understanding what is and is not covered under the new health care program and how it is run.

i have a few of my own:

do you believe there will be less children born if there is not health insurance that covers it?
do you really think people...married and unmarried...will have lesss sex?
are you willing to have more of your tax dollar go to care for the children born as a result of unprotected sex?
what do you propose to keep people from participating in sex?
short of forced sterilization of everyone [and i'm sure you wouldn't want your tax $ paying for that as well as people aren't going to pay for that out of their own pocket], i'm not sure what you think would work.

there are couples that would like to eventually have children.
there are men and women currently single and having sex that don't want children now but would like them later.
do you advocate that their health insurance should not pay for their BC even if they have a co-pay?

at no time in history has the "they can't afford it so they should be doing it" form of BC worked.
what do you suggest?
sex is the cheapest form of entertainment and bonding one can participate in....until one gets pregnant, of course. do you really think people will stop because they can't get BC? remember the blackout in NYC many years ago? remember the 9-month later spike in births in NYC?

i'm beginning to think that BC is a scapegoat for other underlying issues.

 

[Matata]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

And for those who may be interested in seeing how the AZ bill was amended (warning: may be frightening to some) http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/50leg/2r/bills/hb2625h.htm&Session_ID=107

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

[quote="beebrisk|1332006118|3150878....."The greater good". Ah, there's the rub. Who decides that??
See, in my view the "greater good" would be served if everyone except those who must benefit from Title X would pay for their own damn Ortho Novom.

bee, you've been asked questions that you have not answered re not understanding what is and is not covered under the new health care program and how it is run.

i have a few of my own:

do you believe there will be less children born if there is not health insurance that covers it?
do you really think people...married and unmarried...will have lesss sex?
are you willing to have more of your tax dollar go to care for the children born as a result of unprotected sex?
what do you propose to keep people from participating in sex?
short of forced sterilization of everyone [and i'm sure you wouldn't want your tax $ paying for that as well as people aren't going to pay for that out of their own pocket], i'm not sure what you think would work.

there are couples that would like to eventually have children.
there are men and women currently single and having sex that don't want children now but would like them later.
do you advocate that their health insurance should not pay for their BC even if they have a co-pay?

at no time in history has the "they can't afford it so they should be doing it" form of BC worked.
what do you suggest?
sex is the cheapest form of entertainment and bonding one can participate in....until one gets pregnant, of course. do you really think people will stop because they can't get BC? remember the blackout in NYC many years ago? remember the 9-month later spike in births in NYC?

i'm beginning to think that BC is a scapegoat for other underlying issues.[/quote]

 

[Circe]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I guess what I find intriguing is that nobody among us, not even the most gung-ho pro-choice activist out there, actually thinks abortions are a good way to go. Making birth control more accessible helps to prevent them.

So ... why aren't we joining forces on this?

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Good questions Circe.

And Beebrisk, maybe your insurance premiums also went up because you're getting older.

 

[MissStepcut]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I guess what I find intriguing is that nobody among us, not even the most gung-ho pro-choice activist out there, actually thinks abortions are a good way to go. Making birth control more accessible helps to prevent them.

So ... why aren't we joining forces on this?

Exactly this. As someone who is something closer to "reluctantly pro-choice," or maybe in the "safe and legal but rare" camp, and even a person who generally doesn't balk too much about things like 24 hour waiting periods... How could I NOT be a person who also supports birth control access?

The funny thing to me is, in college, everyone I knew went to planned parenthood for BC and morning after pills, because it was cheaper, easier and had more options than student health. So in my opinion, planned parenthood is doing the most to prevent abortion. Way more than a billboard on the side of the highway with a misleading picture of a 18 week fetus and the text "At 18 days baby has a heartbeat!"


Like I have already said, the whole "personal responsibility" line sounds great in theory, but how many generations of evidence do we need to show us that when it comes to pregnancy prevention, demanding personal responsibility alone just leads to more unwanted pregnancies? Good thing PP keeps covering our butts, since we can't seem to summon the political will to adopt sensible, practical, science driven public policy.

 

[kenny]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Good thing PP keeps covering our butts ...

Prevent pregnancy is not about covering that part.











Sorry, MSC, but you set that one up.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

lol

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I guess what I find intriguing is that nobody among us, not even the most gung-ho pro-choice activist out there, actually thinks abortions are a good way to go. Making birth control more accessible helps to prevent them.

So ... why aren't we joining forces on this?

Very true. I'm very pro-choice in terms of policy. But VERY little (child abuse and rape) makes me as ANGRY as hearing of someone using abortion in place of birth control.

Here's one of the things I don't understand about people who are anti- birthcontrol and pro-abstinence and "personal responsibility":

In a world where people DO, unfortunately, use abortion-- a surgical procedure that involves blood and PAIN-- as birthcontrol because they can't practice safe sex long enough to buy and put on a freaking condom, god forbid, WHY do you think ANYONE is going to be 'personally responsible" enough to abstain!?! If they can't practice safe sex, what makes you think they can practice "no sex"?

 

[ericad]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I guess what I find intriguing is that nobody among us, not even the most gung-ho pro-choice activist out there, actually thinks abortions are a good way to go. Making birth control more accessible helps to prevent them.

So ... why aren't we joining forces on this?

Very true. I'm very pro-choice in terms of policy. But VERY little (child abuse and rape) makes me as ANGRY as hearing of someone using abortion in place of birth control.

Here's one of the things I don't understand about people who are anti- birthcontrol and pro-abstinence and "personal responsibility":

In a world where people DO, unfortunately, use abortion-- a surgical procedure that involves blood and PAIN-- as birthcontrol because they can't practice safe sex long enough to buy and put on a freaking condom, god forbid, WHY do you think ANYONE is going to be 'personally responsible" enough to abstain!?! If they can't practice safe sex, what makes you think they can practice "no sex"?

Does abortion as birth control actually happen that frequently? It's so difficult to imagine. I've heard of people having multiple abortions, but I've always considered it rare, though I don't know that stats. I know women who have had one abortion. I don't know a single person who has had more than one. I would think that one abortion in a lifetime would be more than enough, but I guess I don't know. People talk about using abortion as birth control but I do wonder what the actual stats are for multiple abortions.

 

[sonnyjane]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I guess what I find intriguing is that nobody among us, not even the most gung-ho pro-choice activist out there, actually thinks abortions are a good way to go. Making birth control more accessible helps to prevent them.

So ... why aren't we joining forces on this?

Very true. I'm very pro-choice in terms of policy. But VERY little (child abuse and rape) makes me as ANGRY as hearing of someone using abortion in place of birth control.

Here's one of the things I don't understand about people who are anti- birthcontrol and pro-abstinence and "personal responsibility":

In a world where people DO, unfortunately, use abortion-- a surgical procedure that involves blood and PAIN-- as birthcontrol because they can't practice safe sex long enough to buy and put on a freaking condom, god forbid, WHY do you think ANYONE is going to be 'personally responsible" enough to abstain!?! If they can't practice safe sex, what makes you think they can practice "no sex"?

Does abortion as birth control actually happen that frequently? It's so difficult to imagine. I've heard of people having multiple abortions, but I've always considered it rare, though I don't know that stats. I know women who have had one abortion. I don't know a single person who has had more than one. I would think that one abortion in a lifetime would be more than enough, but I guess I don't know. People talk about using abortion as birth control but I do wonder what the actual stats are for multiple abortions.

I won't attempt to speak for Gypsy, but when I hear "using abortions as birth control", I interpret that to mean that someone is having sex with the knowledge that they might get pregnant, but aren't worried if they do get pregnant because they'll just easily have an abortion. That's very different than someone who is trying to prevent pregnancy but then accidentally getting pregnant, so choosing to have an abortion.

 

[ericad]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

That makes a lot of sense, I just would think that people who engage in this attitude and behavior would inevitably wind up pregnant multiple times. Or perhaps they have this attitude once and then become more responsible, so multiple abortions don't happen. Or shoot, maybe there are women out there who have several. But with the morning after pill, I would think abortion numbers should be declining. Imagine how few abortions would take place if people had easy and free access to BC and morning after for when the condoms fail? Prevention is truly the key here. I wish the policy makers would understand this!

 

[sonnyjane]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

That makes a lot of sense, I just would think that people who engage in this attitude and behavior would inevitably wind up pregnant multiple times. Or perhaps they have this attitude once and then become more responsible, so multiple abortions don't happen. Or shoot, maybe there are women out there who have several. But with the morning after pill, I would think abortion numbers should be declining. Imagine how few abortions would take place if people had easy and free access to BC and morning after for when the condoms fail? Prevention is truly the key here. I wish the policy makers would understand this!

Your optimism about the human race is refreshing, but I have to say from personal experience (not getting abortions, but knowing people that have), you're giving people way too much credit

Yes, people who have that mentality DO get pregnant multiple times, and it does result in multiple abortions. I had a roommate in college that chose this "contraceptive" route. She had two abortions in one year. As far as the morning after pill, taking the morning after pill requires having the clarity of mind to realize within 72 hours of having unprotected sex that you need to go out and get the pill from a pharmacy. The truth is, in college (and before and afterward), people are having a LOT of unprotected sex (sorry to break it to you parents!) and while it's usually something that's followed up with an "oh man, I shouldn't have done that, I'm so bad, I know!" type response, if every person that had unprotected sex without birth control went out and got the morning after pill to prevent pregnancy the next day, there wouldn't be enough supply to meet demand! I was on birth control in college, but I do know many people that were not, and their reason was almost exclusively the cost. I'm not saying all people are dumb, but I'm also not trusting all people to be smart

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Sonny got my meaning when I refer to "abortion as birthcontrol". But I have known people that have had more than one, and not because of failed birthcontrol or bad luck. Because of sheer irresponsibility.

I went on ONE (very short) date with a guy once who had three kids from three different YOUNG (I was only 23 when I dated him) women, all his ex 'long term' girlfriends. Why? He didn't "like" condoms. No joke. He had a minimum wage job and no plans to pursue a decent education OR to support his children (two of the girls lived with their parents the other girl collected welfare). Yes, he was hot (only reason I said yes to the-- again, VERY SHORT-- date).

Also, some people have SEVERE reactions from the morning after pill. I have seen this in person. It's not a fool dependable thing. Neither is RU-486.

 

[justginger]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Sonny, when were you in college? I graduated in 2005, and I would be hard pressed to name a single woman I knew that WASN'T on birth control throughout those 4 years. I find the concept of college aged women not being on oral BC very strange.

 

[Amys Bling]

Sonny, when were you in college? I graduated in 2005, and I would be hard pressed to name a single woman I knew that WASN'T on birth control throughout those 4 years. I find the concept of college aged women not being on oral BC very strange.

same here. I graduated college in 2006.

 

[sonnyjane]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Sonny, when were you in college? I graduated in 2005, and I would be hard pressed to name a single woman I knew that WASN'T on birth control throughout those 4 years. I find the concept of college aged women not being on oral BC very strange.

same here. I graduated college in 2006.

Graduated in 2004. MOST of my friends were on it, but there were some that weren't. Our student health center offered birth control for $12-$15 for students that didn't have insurance, but my friends that chose not to be on bc were the ones that weren't in relationships or weren't having regular sex. They figured condoms for an occasional roll the the hay was way cheaper than a month's worth of bc. I happen to think $12 is cheap, and I have taken bc since my freshman year of college, but I really did know many girls that chose not to and still know several women that aren't in relationships so are not on bc. Does that make sense? Not really lol, but it's true. My insurance now is good, but before, my insurance co-pay for bc was $40. My bc is $60 without insurance per month. I can understand if you're not with a steady partner why you'd think that's too expensive.

ETA: I wanted to actually add my opinion. I don't necessarily think that women "deserve" free birth control. I do feel that I should either pay something small for it, or pay premiums to an insurance company to get it. It would be awesome if it was 100% free for everyone, but it's not a cross I'm willing to die on. I DO think I'd much rather have my tax dollars going toward prevention rather than caring for these children that someone can't afford. In the example above, I feel that $12 a month is personally reasonable, and that is actually what my current co-pay is per month, but some don't necessarily agree, and if you're not having a lot of sex, I'm guessing you're less willing to pay any amount for birth control.

 

[iheartscience]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

I would love to see some reliable statistics on the "abortion as birth control" claim. I don't doubt that some women have had multiple abortions, but I highly doubt there is a significant percentage of women who actually depend on abortions for birth control. Sure sounds like an anti-abortion talking point instead of factual information.

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

That makes a lot of sense, I just would think that people who engage in this attitude and behavior would inevitably wind up pregnant multiple times. Or perhaps they have this attitude once and then become more responsible, so multiple abortions don't happen. Or shoot, maybe there are women out there who have several. But with the morning after pill, I would think abortion numbers should be declining. Imagine how few abortions would take place if people had easy and free access to BC and morning after for when the condoms fail? Prevention is truly the key here. I wish the policy makers would understand this!

They DO understand this!

Back in the early 70's Richard Nixon, with the help of George HW (and I'll bet that shocks all of you who are convinced that Republican "misogynists" prefer their woman barefoot, pregnant and subjected to back-alley abortions) conceived and passed Title X, allowing federal funds to cover BC in clinics, PP, etc...

Title X made FREE and EASY access to BC in 75% of all US counties...wherever there is a federally funded clinic.

Has the rate of abortion slowed? I would venture to say "no" since Roe v Wade was signed three years after Title X.

Just because prevention is FREE and EASY doesn't mean people are going to take advantage of it. There's no such thing as pregnancy "prevention" unless the individual(s) involved are proactive about it.

If you do the math, you'll see that there's simply no correlation between free BC and lower abortion rates. Heck, you don't even have to do the math. It's pretty obvious based on the above facts.

 

[Matata]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Has the rate of abortion slowed? I would venture to say "no" since Roe v Wade was signed three years after Title X.

Just because prevention is FREE and EASY doesn't mean people are going to take advantage of it. There's no such thing as pregnancy "prevention" unless the individual(s) involved are proactive about it.

If you do the math, you'll see that there's simply no correlation between free BC and lower abortion rates. Heck, you don't even have to do the math. It's pretty obvious based on the above facts.

You're incorrect about the bolded above. CDC has conducted extensive studies that show abortion declined up until 2001 and then began to increase, particularly in 2005-06. Full text for 2006 is here http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5808a1.htm And anyone who wants to use data rather than supposition can find all the studies on the CDC site. Excerpt from 2006 abstract:
"Description of System: Each year, CDC requests abortion data from the central health agencies of 52 reporting areas (the 50 states, New York City, and the District of Columbia); these data are provided to CDC voluntarily. In 2006, data were received from 49 reporting areas. For the purpose of trend analysis, data were evaluated from the 46 areas that reported data every year during 1996--2006.

Results: For 2006, a total of 846,181 abortions were reported to CDC. Among the 46 areas that provided data consistently during 1996--2006, a total of 835,134 abortions (98.7% of the total) were reported; the abortion rate was 16.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years, and the abortion ratio was 236 abortions per 1,000 live births. During the previous decade (1997--2006), reported abortion numbers, rates, and ratios decreased 5.7%, 8.8%, and 14.8%, respectively; most of these declines occurred before 2001. During the previous year (2005--2006), the total number of abortions increased 3.1%, and the abortion rate increased 3.2%; the abortion ratio was stable.

In 2006, as during the previous decade (1997--2006), women aged 20--29 years accounted for the majority (56.8%) of abortions and had the highest abortion rates (29.9 abortions per 1,000 women aged 20--24 years and 22.2 abortions per 1,000 women aged 25--29 years); by contrast, abortion ratios were highest at the extremes of reproductive age. Adolescents aged 15--19 years accounted for 16.5% of all abortions in 2006 and had an abortion rate of 14.8 abortions per 1,000 adolescents aged 15--19 years; women aged ≥35 years accounted for a smaller percentage (12.1%) of abortions and had lower abortion rates (7.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 35--39 years and 2.6 abortions per 1,000 women aged ≥40 years). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions and the abortion rate increased among women aged ≥35 years but declined among adolescents aged ≤19 years and among women aged 20--29 years.

The majority (62.0%) of abortions in 2006 were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation; few abortions were performed at 16--20 weeks' gestation (3.7%) or at ≥21 weeks' gestation (1.3%). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation increased 11.7%; this increase largely was accounted for by procedures performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation, which increased 66.3%. In 2006, the greatest percentage (87.6%) of abortions were performed by curettage (including vacuum aspiration, sharp curettage, and dilation and evacuation procedures), followed by medical (nonsurgical) abortion (10.6%).

Deaths of women associated with complications from abortions for 2006 are being investigated under CDC's Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System. In 2005, the most recent year for which data were available, seven women were reported to have died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortions. No reported deaths were associated with known illegal induced abortions.

Interpretation: Among the 46 areas that reported data consistently during 1996--2006, decreases in the total reported number, rate, and ratio of abortions were attributable primarily to reductions before 2001. During 2005--2006, the total number and rate of abortions increased. In 2005, as in the previous years, reported deaths related to abortions occurred only rarely."

And a reminder to all of us that the primary issue is not who uses BC and who pays for it. As Kenny said pages ago -- it's about power and who wields it.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

And a reminder to all of us that the primary issue is not who uses BC and who pays for it. As Kenny said pages ago -- it's about power and who wields it.

Exactly, and I'd like to add when your employer "pays for" your health insurance, your employer is not giving you a gift. Health insurance is part of compensation (not wages per se). As such, you are the one who is compensated for your work in part with health insurance. The same is true about "government programs" the rules for which apply to everyone. You pay taxes from 18-65. That's 47 years of paying payroll taxes to get Medicare (for instance). Many people (not only on this forum) seem to feel that "someone else" is paying so if they "did something for you" (like "gave" you BC pills) they're doing you some favor. That's not how insurance works, whether it's private or government, whether it's employer provided insurance or a social insurance program.

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Has the rate of abortion slowed? I would venture to say "no" since Roe v Wade was signed three years after Title X.

Just because prevention is FREE and EASY doesn't mean people are going to take advantage of it. There's no such thing as pregnancy "prevention" unless the individual(s) involved are proactive about it.

If you do the math, you'll see that there's simply no correlation between free BC and lower abortion rates. Heck, you don't even have to do the math. It's pretty obvious based on the above facts.

You're incorrect about the bolded above. CDC has conducted extensive studies that show abortion declined up until 2001 and then began to increase, particularly in 2005-06. Full text for 2006 is here http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5808a1.htm And anyone who wants to use data rather than supposition can find all the studies on the CDC site. Excerpt from 2006 abstract:
"Description of System: Each year, CDC requests abortion data from the central health agencies of 52 reporting areas (the 50 states, New York City, and the District of Columbia); these data are provided to CDC voluntarily. In 2006, data were received from 49 reporting areas. For the purpose of trend analysis, data were evaluated from the 46 areas that reported data every year during 1996--2006.

Results: For 2006, a total of 846,181 abortions were reported to CDC. Among the 46 areas that provided data consistently during 1996--2006, a total of 835,134 abortions (98.7% of the total) were reported; the abortion rate was 16.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years, and the abortion ratio was 236 abortions per 1,000 live births. During the previous decade (1997--2006), reported abortion numbers, rates, and ratios decreased 5.7%, 8.8%, and 14.8%, respectively; most of these declines occurred before 2001. During the previous year (2005--2006), the total number of abortions increased 3.1%, and the abortion rate increased 3.2%; the abortion ratio was stable.

In 2006, as during the previous decade (1997--2006), women aged 20--29 years accounted for the majority (56.8%) of abortions and had the highest abortion rates (29.9 abortions per 1,000 women aged 20--24 years and 22.2 abortions per 1,000 women aged 25--29 years); by contrast, abortion ratios were highest at the extremes of reproductive age. Adolescents aged 15--19 years accounted for 16.5% of all abortions in 2006 and had an abortion rate of 14.8 abortions per 1,000 adolescents aged 15--19 years; women aged ≥35 years accounted for a smaller percentage (12.1%) of abortions and had lower abortion rates (7.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 35--39 years and 2.6 abortions per 1,000 women aged ≥40 years). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions and the abortion rate increased among women aged ≥35 years but declined among adolescents aged ≤19 years and among women aged 20--29 years.

The majority (62.0%) of abortions in 2006 were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation; few abortions were performed at 16--20 weeks' gestation (3.7%) or at ≥21 weeks' gestation (1.3%). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation increased 11.7%; this increase largely was accounted for by procedures performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation, which increased 66.3%. In 2006, the greatest percentage (87.6%) of abortions were performed by curettage (including vacuum aspiration, sharp curettage, and dilation and evacuation procedures), followed by medical (nonsurgical) abortion (10.6%).

Deaths of women associated with complications from abortions for 2006 are being investigated under CDC's Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System. In 2005, the most recent year for which data were available, seven women were reported to have died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortions. No reported deaths were associated with known illegal induced abortions.

Interpretation: Among the 46 areas that reported data consistently during 1996--2006, decreases in the total reported number, rate, and ratio of abortions were attributable primarily to reductions before 2001. During 2005--2006, the total number and rate of abortions increased. In 2005, as in the previous years, reported deaths related to abortions occurred only rarely."

And a reminder to all of us that the primary issue is not who uses BC and who pays for it. As Kenny said pages ago -- it's about power and who wields it.

Abortion wasn't legal until 1973, so there's no way the (legal) abortion rate has "declined" since then.

The figures you posted are all well and good but are taken out of context and are not relevant to the "access vs usage" point I was making.

If free and easy access to BC was responsible for lowering abortion rates, there wouldn't have been 40+ million performed since Rowe v Wade was signed into law. Free BC came first. Then came legalized abortion. After 40+ years of free BC, we are still performing about 3000 abortions a day.

Are you saying that year after year, for 30 years, a million abortions are performed because those women have no "access" to BC? The vast majority of abortions are performed on unmarried women (fact). So, according to your premise, unmarried women have less access to BC than married women. I think we all know that's not the case because as a demographic group, unmarried women are no more likely than married woman to be living in an area where BC isn't accessible.

 

[ksinger]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Well, I'd love to discuss this, but I may have mentioned that I post political stuff in a nearly-all-male political forum, and have discussed it nearly to death. And I can assure you, the views are night and day between men an women on this issue. With the exception of a few of the men there, especially one whose wife is an ob/gyn, the level of open misogyny and glaring ignorance of female anatomy and physiology is pretty stunning. And depressing. I've kinda bowed out of that topic there.

This pretty much sums up how I feel on the whole contraception on the defensive/Limbaugh slut-shaming/"It Takes a Family"/personhood/legislatively forced medical procedure .....flap....that just runs into one big attack on women in general....

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

And a reminder to all of us that the primary issue is not who uses BC and who pays for it. As Kenny said pages ago -- it's about power and who wields it.

Exactly, and I'd like to add when your employer "pays for" your health insurance, your employer is not giving you a gift. Health insurance is part of compensation (not wages per se). As such, you are the one who is compensated for your work in part with health insurance. The same is true about "government programs" the rules for which apply to everyone. You pay taxes from 18-65. That's 47 years of paying payroll taxes to get Medicare (for instance). Many people (not only on this forum) seem to feel that "someone else" is paying so if they "did something for you" (like "gave" you BC pills) they're doing you some favor. That's not how insurance works, whether it's private or government, whether it's employer provided insurance or a social insurance program.

Agreed. Insurance isn't a gift. It's a benefit. And one that's offered at an employers discretion. While some may have to offer membership into a group plan, there's no law (until 2014) that says they have to pay for it...at which point many businesses will be forced into bankruptcy or total failure...but that's a whole other story and one that will "benefit" very few.

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Well, I'd love to discuss this, but I may have mentioned that I post political stuff in a nearly-all-male political forum, and have discussed it nearly to death. And I can assure you, the views are night and day between men an women on this issue. With the exception of a few of the men there, especially one whose wife is an ob/gyn, the level of open misogyny and glaring ignorance of female anatomy and physiology is pretty stunning. And depressing. I've kinda bowed out of that topic there.

This pretty much sums up how I feel on the whole contraception on the defensive/Limbaugh slut-shaming/"It Takes a Family"/personhood/legislatively forced medical procedure .....flap....that just runs into one big attack on women in general....

Maybe I'm the first female "misogynist" in history if that's even possible, but why do we CARE what men..or anyone says about us? Have we no backbone?? Apparently we have no "balls" either. Literally AND figuratively.

Shouldn't girls learn from their mothers that being called a "prude" for not having sex shouldn't matter?

Shouldn't we turn off the TV or radio when dopes like Limbaugh or Maher denigrate women?

Shouldn't we also understand that some women who don't want to, but still become pregnant are in fact, idiots? No,not all. Accidents happen. But my un-PC opinion (and evidence from experience) is that many woman (from EVERY walk of life) become pregnant because they get lost in the moment and throw caution to the wind. If we were honest with ourselves, we'd all admit to that little, inconvenient fact.

C'mon...It's YEARS since the women's movement first rallied for freedom and autonomy. There's 3 or 4 generations now that should have grown up understanding that their bodies are theirs and learning how to stand up to men. The fact that so many women continue to whine about it says much more about women than it does men. But I guess it's just easier for some women to continuously play the "victim" and blame men for their problems than take any responsibility for themselves.

 

[Matata]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Beebrisk I'm not trying to prove any point other than opinions -- yours, mine, ours -- should be supported by some sort of information to help each side better understand the other. I find it interesting looking over the tables in the CDC report that impoverished areas in the south and east have higher rates of abortion than other areas. And what's going on in Michigan, Illinois, and New England?

And what do we think is the cause of the highest rates of abortion being among those in age group 13-14. Easy access to free BC isn't helping them. Why? Is it lack of maturity or a support system?

What of the race/ethnicity differences?

There are other studies that show correlation between multiple abortions and sexually abusive relationships. Some people are psychologically unable to remove themselves from danger.

There are many reasons (religious, cultural, et al) why people either choose not to or are unable to exercise the common sense and discipline that you highly value. Negative judgment of those behaviors doesn't stop them. I don't know what will.

My opinion about BC is that any method that requires a prescription should be covered by insurance.
My opinion about political, religious, cultural groups that attempt to limit my choice about what goes in and comes out of my body is that they can go _uck themselves.

Unless I'm under the influence of hallucinatory substances, I usually keep those opinions to myself and try to engage in reasoned discourse because that is the only effective way to get a point across -- again, not for the purpose of changing a mindset but for the chance that common ground could be established when opposing sides spend time listening to each other rather than defending against each other.

 

[kenny]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

There's 3 or 4 generations now that should have grown up understanding that their bodies are theirs and learning how to stand up to men.

Stand up to men?
In what context? . . . Saying no to sex, as if only men want it?

Or are you referring to something else?

 

[beebrisk]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

There's 3 or 4 generations now that should have grown up understanding that their bodies are theirs and learning how to stand up to men.

Stand up to men?
In what context? . . . Saying no to sex, as if only men want it?

Or are you referring to something else?

I was referring to that point in the little cartoon about girls being called names for not wanting to have sex.

 

[E B]

Re: Use birth control pills to prevent pregnancy? You're fir

Well, I'd love to discuss this, but I may have mentioned that I post political stuff in a nearly-all-male political forum, and have discussed it nearly to death. And I can assure you, the views are night and day between men an women on this issue. With the exception of a few of the men there, especially one whose wife is an ob/gyn, the level of open misogyny and glaring ignorance of female anatomy and physiology is pretty stunning. And depressing. I've kinda bowed out of that topic there.

I'm sorry to hear that. I too post on an almost all-male forum with a political 'tab' and have experienced the opposite. The vast majority are firmly in support of our 'side,' even more so with each ridiculous bill.