The reason we can't have honest dialogue about education

[ksinger]

The blogging teacher is apparently not backing down, and is still blogging. Good on her. I'm glad she has other means and doesn't need the job (apparently). Will she start a conversation? I hope so, but I doubt it will make much difference. Still, she is my hero of the week...maybe the year.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/28/2011/february/15/blogging-teacher-blogging-again-1.html

excerpt:

"There are serious problems with our education system today - with the way that schools and school district and students and parents take teachers who enter the education field full of life and hope and a desire to change the world and positively impact kids, and beat the life out of them and villainize them and blame them for everything - and those need to be brought to light. If this 'scandal' opens the door for that conversation, so be it. Let that conversation begin. Stay tuned here."

 

[Circe]

I genuinely cannot understand what all the fuss is about here. A teacher who ... blogs. I may be living in a glass house here, but that's me ... and all my friends. I'm not even vaguely anonymous!

There have been instances in the community of people blogging so that their students could be recognized, and that's a big no-no (like, you can either mention where you work, or you can openly complain about your plagiarism case: not both, people), but as far as I can tell, this woman didn't do that. Her journal was anonymous, and she spoke in generalities.

Is it the kid thing? I teach 18 and up, so (aside from their actual parents), I don't think they're quite as generally romanticized. Is it ringing people's chimes that somebody who worked with children acknowledged that some of them are kinda obsequious/ratty/whatever? 'Cause, in all honesty, on the basis of having been a kid and having seen kids, truth.

What am I missing here? Because right now, this is coming off a lot like,

A) Teachers are supposed to be selfless. Selfless, damnit! Low salaries for the love of the kids, yeah.

B) Employees are supposed to be faceless drones. No opinions, no individuality, and if you complain in this economy, you get what you deserve.

C) Women! Shrewish harpies! (Seriously, read the comments-thread on the article ... some of them are calling an 8.5 month pregnant lady post-menopausal, which, hey, makes me think it's less about the reading comprehension, and more about a chance to exercise some misogyny; then again, that's every newspaper comment thread, and the reason I prefer to filter my news).

So ... translate for a gal who might be too close to the issue to get it: what gives?

 

[megumic]

I want to read her blog. Do you have that link?? I tried to google it and imagine she took it down, but perhaps not. Any luck??

 

[iLander]

I think it is RIDICULOUS that they are riding rough shod over her freedom of speech this way!

It's time the parents of these children realize that their "little darlings" are lazy, arrogant and rude. I think that her blog, pointing that out, is a step in the right direction. We NEED more of her!

When exactly did the American attitude toward education go from "respect the teacher" to "my little darling is perfect, respect her"?

Here's a story:

My DH took a job as an adjunct professor at a University, strictly as a favor to a friend because the University was caught short when another professor walked. They couldn't find anybody else in the state with his credentials, and DH rearranged his work schedule to teach the class. He spent many hours every week preparing power points, worksheets, quizzes, tests, etc. He is a professional in his field, with clients all over the country, and makes Many times this pitiful adjunct salary. These kids were being offered a world-class opportunity.

Fast forward to class; first day there is a girl there and she comes in late, sits at the back, pulls her hoodie over her face and looks like she's asleep. In a class with only 20 kids, you can't miss her. She misses the next two classes and gets 0's on the assignments. The fourth class, DH calls the roll and she is, of course, not there. He says at the END of the roll call "It's always the students that need the most help that don't come in". A couple of other students were missing that day, BTW. The next week the girl is there and confronts him with "Why are you attacking me in front of the other students?" SAY WHAAT? My DH (who is a freaking saint) calmly says "I did not directly refer to you, but I'm wondering why you are paying for a class that you are not taking". The girl misses the next few classes and DH has to give her an incomplete.

Then all hell breaks loose. The administration says that he has to defend the incomplete, and has several meetings to discuss it. My DH calmly explains she missed 8 out of 10 assignments. The admin says he has to give her extra time to complete them, even though the class is done. He does, and she completes 2 of them. Admin pushes him to give her a C. Sick of it all, he does.

So this girl was admitted to college, probably taking the slot of a more deserving student, and allowed to slide through by an admin that doesn't want to rock the boat. And the kicker? She was on 100% financial aid. So taxpayers were footing the bill for this slacking little twit.

My DH was amazed at the overall poor quality of the students, even at a college (juniors and seniors) level. He gave homework and expected it to be done at home. They would come in and more than half hadn't even started it, and spent class time working on it. He had to shelve many lectures. The admin was lazy, and couldn't be bothered to stop fighting amongst themselves long enough to actually do anything useful. The teachers were more concerned about fighting for sabbaticals than they were about teaching. The class needed some printers, and he was told it would take 2 years to get a printer, IT would need to be consulted, grants provided, etc. He said screw it and bought 2 $50 printers out of his own pocket and installed them. IT still felt the need to come in and waste 20 minutes of class time "inspecting" the installation. The other professors were amazed at his "audacity".

So, all the problem students of elementary and high school teachers do not get better. They just get older and go to college.

 

[iheartscience]

I want to read her blog. Do you have that link?? I tried to google it and imagine she took it down, but perhaps not. Any luck??

She didn't take the blog down-the link is at the end of the article. I'd link it for you but for some reason there is a rule on Pricescope against linking to blogs. Not sure if that applies here-who knows.

 

[Circe]

I will say, though, students like that are the exception and not the rule. I'd say that maybe 2% of my students over a decade of teaching have been like that (or worse - plagiarists, boo, hiss). Another 10% slack, fail or scrape a C and just ... don't care (I have no idea what they're thinking). The main 85% fall along an average bell curve of distribution, trying and doing relatively well and being functional members of society who are witty, or kind, or hard workers, somewhere on the scale. And about 3% are good as gold, wonderful students who make me so very happy I'm in this profession because I know they're going to take the nuggets of what they learn in my class, aggregate them with what they learn in their other classes, and go on to make a huge difference in the world.

My good students way outnumber my bad students. Heck, my exemplary students still outnumber my bad ones! But if society is suddenly expecting teachers to pretend that there's nothing wrong, nope, no sirree, Bob, they're all darling little angels (even on my off time and in the privacy of my own anonymous internet identity), well ....

Do we have a smiley who's developing a twitch?

 

[lliang_chi]

Circe, I'm really interested to hear what teachers say about the educational system. I feel that there are some great teachers, and/or young teachers that could be great. It seems like maybe this teacher is a little bit of the young and could be great.

I would love to hear what other teachers say about this.

And just like there's bad students, there's also BAD teachers. I was in high school and there were two teachers in my grade that had relations with students But also there were teachers that just didn't care either. We'd sit through two WHOLE hours and they wouldn't teach a thing, just wanna hang out, be a "cool" teacher, and flirt with the girls. So my sis and I cut their class. A lot actually. We lived in Miami so we'd go to the beach. BUT the teachers that were actually teaching something, we went to their classes ALL the time. Even on "Senior Skip Day." Yes we had one of those. We were SO cool in highschool ( )

 

[NovemberBride]

I have to say, I am all for freedom of speech, but freedom of speech means that you are free to say what you think, not that there are not consequences for what you say. I believe this woman crossed the line and now has to deal with the repercussions of her actions. If you read the blog, some of the postings are, imho, terrible. In one post, she gives a list of things she wishes she could write on her student's report cards, including "I hate your kid" "your kid is ratty" and a litany of other insults. If I wrote those things on the internet about my boss or co-workers, I have to believe that I might be fired as well and I would deserve it. It shows a complete lack of professionalism and poor judgement.

I happen live in the area where this is going on. I in no way believe that my DD is perfect or does no wrong. I would be happy to receive constructive advice from her teachers - however, I hate your kid or your kid looks like a rat, is hardly constructive criticism. However, I would still not want her in a classroom taught by someone who not only has such obvious dislike for her students, but has poor enough judgment to write about it on the internet. Now that it is out, how on earth can the school keep her on staff? What parent would allow their child to be in her class knowing how she feels? I for one would not.

I do believe teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there and I have the most respect for teachers. I believe they do not get enough support from parents or enough respect from students as a general matter. But writing rude blog posts about your students is not the way to get more support or respect, at least not from this parent.

 

[Circe]

I have to say, I am all for freedom of speech, but freedom of speech means that you are free to say what you think, not that there are not consequences for what you say. I believe this woman crossed the line and now has to deal with the repercussions of her actions. If you read the blog, some of the postings are, imho, terrible. In one post, she gives a list of things she wishes she could write on her student's report cards, including "I hate your kid" "your kid is ratty" and a litany of other insults. If I wrote those things on the internet about my boss or co-workers, I have to believe that I might be fired as well and I would deserve it. It shows a complete lack of professionalism and poor judgement.

I happen live in the area where this is going on. I in no way believe that my DD is perfect or does no wrong. I would be happy to receive constructive advice from her teachers - however, I hate your kid or your kid looks like a rat, is hardly constructive criticism. However, I would still not want her in a classroom taught by someone who not only has such obvious dislike for her students, but has poor enough judgment to write about it on the internet. Now that it is out, how on earth can the school keep her on staff? What parent would allow their child to be in her class knowing how she feels? I for one would not.

I do believe teaching is one of the hardest jobs out there and I have the most respect for teachers. I believe they do not get enough support from parents or enough respect from students as a general matter. But writing rude blog posts about your students is not the way to get more support or respect, at least not from this parent.

Here's the thing, though: it's anonymous! She was talking about the idiotic generic categories of comments which are pre-provided for teachers, which, yeah, deserve to be mocked, and which, additionally, adds another level of generalization; she wasn't talking about specific children at all. Like I said, I love my students for the most part, but there are days when I want the grading scale to go from "A" to "Seriously? Seriously?!?" a la "Grey's Anatomy. That doesn't mean I hate them all, or even that I hate some of them individually: more that the system can be ridiculous and cause frustration which might need to be vented.

And ... really? If you vent online anonymously, you think that's a fireable offense? Not about your specific boss or coworker by name, but about your industry. If, say, a jewelry store employee anonymously vents about, "Arrgh, don't tell me how to do my job if you can't distinguish between a karat and a carat and a carrot, silly wabbit" and somebody stumbles across it, they should be fired? I begin to feel very nervous about the distinctions between public life and private life there ....

I'm just wildly curious to know who came across the blog and recognized it (and how) and turned it in. I didn't get to read the original posts, just the recaps, so my opinions are just as subjective as anybody else's ... I just can't help but feel that there has to be more to the story, somehow.

 

[NovemberBride]

Circe, Yep, I think it is a fireable offense (and legally, it is, btw). I think teachers have a right to vent just as much as anyone else, but they must live with the consequences of their actions. It is one thing when it was an anonymous blog, but now that it has been made public, it is out there and all her students and their parents know what she said about them. When she posted it on the internet and shared it with others she took that risk. I am curious as to your answer to my question about whether you would want/allow your student to remain in a classroom with a teacher who said these things about your child and his/her friends.

I vent about my job all the time, but I would never do it in a way that could come back to bite me like this woman did. Again, to me it is a matter of poor judgment.

 

[Circe]

Actually, legally, it's a grey area insofar as I'm aware: it depends on the industry and the content of the statements. Teachers don't have any kind of client privilege in operation ... and, again, she was speaking in generalities.

Given the fact that it was an anonymous blog and now isn't, that would imply that now if she wrote anything out-of-line, it would be a firing offense. As it was ...? Not necessarily (and, glad to see she hired a lawyer).

As for me, personally, would I want my (hypothetical) child to stay in a classroom where the teacher said things like that? I honestly wouldn't care, because my baseline assumption is that every teacher says things like that. I also assume that my doctor has strong feelings on patients who are late, my bank manager rolls her eyes every time she's asked to cancel a bounced check fee, and my friendly local cashier stifles the urge to slam her head into a wall whenever people slowly and laboriously try to pay with out-of-state checks in the 10 items or less lane. If any of them vent online, so long as they do so anonymously? I actually don't take it personally and wouldn't want them fired for it so long as they were doing their jobs well ....

Honestly, I think the kinds of teacher Lliang Chi mentions are a much bigger problem. Having "relations" with students aside (!!!), apathy or incompetence are much bigger threats to student learning than the people who still care enough to be frustrated ....

 

[NovemberBride]

Circe, I did forget that most teachers have unions, so her job might be more protected than the average employee. The average employee in a non-union job could certainly be fired because in the US we have employment at will. My boss could fire me if I said I didn't like her sweater and I would have no recourse. It might be different in the case of a unionized employee.

I am not so naive as to believe that most teachers don't think the same things that this teacher wrote on her blog. But to actually know it as a fact changes things for me. I know, as a parent, that I would not want my child taught by someone who might go home after spending all day with my daughter and blog about hating her students. That's just insulting. Also, in this case since the students are old enough to know about it, it could be damaging to their self-esteem to know what their teacher said.

 

[kama_s]

I want to read her blog. Do you have that link?? I tried to google it and imagine she took it down, but perhaps not. Any luck??

She didn't take the blog down-the link is at the end of the article. I'd link it for you but for some reason there is a rule on Pricescope against linking to blogs. Not sure if that applies here-who knows.

I think her original blog was taken down. The link to the new blog only has that one post. Here's a news article about her original blog:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/new...bruary/10/blog-puts-teacher-in-hot-water.html

If you read the above article, it lists some of the comments from her original blog and I can absolutely see why the school officials would take issue to it:

* “Shy isn’t cute in 11th grade; it’s annoying. Must learn to advocate for himself instead of having Mommy do it.”
* “Dunderhead.”
* “Nowhere near as good as her sibling. Are you sure they’re related?”
* “Rat-like.”
* “Frightfully dim.”
* “Just as bad as his sibling. Don’t you know how to raise kids?”
* “Dresses like a streetwalker.”
* “Whiny, simpering grade-grubber with an unrealistically high perception of own ability level.”

I suppose one can't make a true judgement call without hearing (or reading, in this case) both sides. Her comments on her blog border on offensive, and in my personal opinion, are completely inappropriate when coming from a shcool teacher.

 

[ksinger]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

As a mom, I would be PISSED off if one of my son's teachers was talking crap about him on a blog. Even if there are canned comments on report cards, there still are parent/teacher conferences where communication can help out with problems kids are experiencing.

About 1/2 of my kids' teachers have said VERY inappropriate things to me about other kids. Telling me personal issues and going into detail about their lives. Wonder what was said to other parents about my kids!

Free speech - yeah, but come on. That doesn't mean gossiping on a public forum when it's a job as a teacher to keep personal issues between the kids and the parents (and the principal if necessary) to themselves. I don't need to know that one of the students can't read very well or that the kid is on ADHD meds!

 

[Circe]

I want to read her blog. Do you have that link?? I tried to google it and imagine she took it down, but perhaps not. Any luck??

She didn't take the blog down-the link is at the end of the article. I'd link it for you but for some reason there is a rule on Pricescope against linking to blogs. Not sure if that applies here-who knows.

I think her original blog was taken down. The link to the new blog only has that one post. Here's a news article about her original blog:

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/new...bruary/10/blog-puts-teacher-in-hot-water.html

If you read the above article, it lists some of the comments from her original blog and I can absolutely see why the school officials would take issue to it:

* “Shy isn’t cute in 11th grade; it’s annoying. Must learn to advocate for himself instead of having Mommy do it.”
* “Dunderhead.”
* “Nowhere near as good as her sibling. Are you sure they’re related?”
* “Rat-like.”
* “Frightfully dim.”
* “Just as bad as his sibling. Don’t you know how to raise kids?”
* “Dresses like a streetwalker.”
* “Whiny, simpering grade-grubber with an unrealistically high perception of own ability level.”

I suppose one can't make a true judgement call without hearing (or reading, in this case) both sides. Her comments on her blog border on offensive, and in my personal opinion, are completely inappropriate when coming from a shcool teacher.

Yeah, but ... again, context is important. As far as I can tell from her in-blog defense* (there's a link at the end of the Philly Burbs piece), all of those were satirical categories which she would have added to the tinned response grade categories encouraged by the school! She wasn't talking about actual students! The fact that this is being misquoted in so many articles is actually making me weep for reading comprehension ....

* Again, didn't have the chance to read the comments in the original, so if anybody has screen-caps that prove otherwise, I'll stand corrected.

 

[junebug17]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by honest discussion. People are just expressing their opinions. Not everyone is going to view this woman as a hero.

I don't know, sounds to me as if teen-agers really get on her nerves. Maybe another line of work would be a better fit for her.

 

[soocool]

My DD does not go to CB, but Central Bucks, New Hope/Solebury, and Council Rock school districts have the best reputations in Bucks County PA. These school districts are also in fairly affluent areas. My DD has friends who drive BMWs, Mercedes, etc to schools.

I am not sure but I think Natalie Munroe teaches Honors English (or not sure if it was AP English).Anyone with kids in high school who take advanced courses know there are high expectations when it comes to taking these courses. Parents often override teacher recommendations because Honors and AP look great on transcripts for entrance into college. Yet the kids do not belong in these classes. DD takes AP courses and even the friends who are in her classes don't think they belong there. Their parents do. Parents don't want to hear about their kid not being capable. The mentality is that the teachers work for the parents.

So I can understand Natalie's frustration in dealing with parents who don't what to hear the truth about their kids. Finally, parents and kids can go to a website called ratemyteachers.com and say whatever they want about the teacher. Is this also right?

Here is an excerpt from our local paper which talks about this:




As for the shocked, outraged and disgusted parents who called the school on behalf of their children, well, what goes around comes around.

See, for years teachers have been subjected by their students to name-calling and whining via the Web site RateMyTeachers.com.

I checked the page for CB East last week and found that students have no qualms anonymously insulting their teachers, or second guessing how they run their classrooms.

For example, a CB East English teacher named Hendrickson is criticized this way: "The SAT prep course was unnecessarily difficult with too many projects."

Imagine. A teacher who makes a kid work hard. The noive.

Should shocked parents and outraged students succeed having Natalie Munroe fired, let me suggest that teachers launch a Web site, "RateMy StudentsAndTheirParents.com."

As with RateMyTeachers.com, educators could post anonymous comments about students, such as, "Gossips," "Does not appear to own a comb," "Falls asleep in class," "Always bragging that his father is a lawyer with connections," "Thought there were 57 states."

Parents' names could be listed, too, so teachers can relay info like, "Never checks homework," "Pest," "Sends child to school in unwashed rags," "Nearly choked when she said her daughter is going to one of the Ivies," "His son isn't the only one who needs large amounts of Ritalin," "Bully."

Fair is fair.

 

[suchende]

I can definitely understand the frustration. Our school systems have plenty of faults, and teachers are expected to cope with a lot, and are limited in what they can do to change things in their own classrooms.

That said, people who try to make real change, like challenging the unions, replacing failing schools with charter school, etc., are met with resistance by many teachers. Blogging about the variable that aren't going to change (half of all your students are below-average in intelligence, not all parents are exemplary, teens are behavioral challenges) doesn't seem like a productive dialogue.

 

[kama_s]

Yeah, but ... again, context is important. As far as I can tell from her in-blog defense* (there's a link at the end of the Philly Burbs piece), all of those were satirical categories which she would have added to the tinned response grade categories encouraged by the school! She wasn't talking about actual students! The fact that this is being misquoted in so many articles is actually making me weep for reading comprehension ....

* Again, didn't have the chance to read the comments in the original, so if anybody has screen-caps that prove otherwise, I'll stand corrected.

Circe, I did read that. But that is precisely my point. I can't make an informed judgement call unless I've actually read her blog. When I read ksinger's link, I was wholeheartedly supporting the teacher. Then I read the link I posted and I had my doubts. Why? Because taking two lines out of context is just not telling the entire story.

And yes, I do agree with most of her comments - especially given my brother can fit perfectly into any one of the categories of kids that she has listed (just listening to my brother talk about school aggravates me to no end) and our new generation of helicopter parenting does not help. But to be fair, some of her comments are out of line and take away from her underlying message.

 

[kama_s]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

ksinger, would you care to elaborate?

 

[Circe]

I can definitely understand the frustration. Our school systems have plenty of faults, and teachers are expected to cope with a lot, and are limited in what they can do to change things in their own classrooms.

That said, people who try to make real change, like challenging the unions, replacing failing schools with charter school, etc., are met with resistance by many teachers. Blogging about the variable that aren't going to change (half of all your students are below-average in intelligence, not all parents are exemplary, teens are behavioral challenges) doesn't seem like a productive dialogue.

I think the problem with a lot of the changes, or, at least the cause for a lot of the resistance on the part of the teachers, is that it's read less like "change for the better" and more like "abandoning a sinking ship." The unions, from the teachers perspective, are among the only entities who are on their side, helping them to fight against budget cuts, salary cuts, the push towards early retirement, ridiculous class sizes, and extended hours (personally, I think the unions can have issues of their own ... but they're still better than nothing). Charter schools? Don't tend to help teachers, either (they generally pay less, so they're not really viable career alternatives, and in some areas the practical result has been that the most privileged students are sucked away, leaving teachers with a mean of less qualified students).

The blogging isn't productive, no: ideally, instructors who feel this frustrated will pursue spots in union leadership themselves, lobby for more state funding, and pursue additional avenues for change. But it can be tough when they're seen as "the enemy" by the precise group they're trying to benefit: their students, and their students families.

 

[kama_s]

I just wanted to add, I don't usually participate in any of the teaching threads here on PS because I am just not informed enough to be able to positively contribute to the discussion.

I didn't go to secondary school in North America, only moved here for university. In Indian schools, the onus is on the student to do well. With that population, it's each man for himself. Teachers are paid nominally, and when I say nominally, I mean REALLY really low. So most of my teachers never cared much to teach. Some of the good ones would do NOTHING in class, and then hold private tutoring in their house charging an arm and a leg (and these private in home classes would be filled with 20-30 students, it wasn't even one-on-one). There is intense pressure to do well, because of the insane competition. For instance, we never had gym or sports or any other vocational activities because we were meant to spend each and ever second studying!

Which is why when I see my brother dicking around despite of abundant opportunities and amazing teachers, it just drives me up the wall. He routinely blames his teachers (which falls on deaf ears, I just have no patience for it), barely passes his classes, skips classes frequently, talks smack in class. So when he tells me his teacher kicked him out or failed him on a test, my response always is: "good, you must have had it coming".

I only commented on the blogger as a third party unbiased observer. I think many on this thread might be too emotionally vested to call it as it truly is.

 

[soocool]

I forgot that my friend's DD (she's a senior) goes to CB East. I will be contacting her to get the real scoop about what is going on and what the parents and school are saying. I am not sure if Natalie was tenured at CB or not (I believe you have to be teaching in the district for 3 years before you can become tenured).

We had an incidence here almost a year ago where an AP Math high school teacher was fired for having sex with one of his female students. They cannot fire him because he is tenured. It is such a shame that this happened because he was a great AP teacher according to his students and he was dismissed about a month before his students were to take their AP exams. He pleaded guilty in November to child endangerment and corruption of minors, but makes you think how can we protect our kids against these kinds of predators in school. Also, he is making big bucks staying home because the truth was revealed. How is this right?

Oh, and I forgot to add that there were other teachers who knew about this teachers antics and said nothing. One or 2 resigned at the others were fired only to be brought back because legally the school could not fire them for this (tenured teachers).

 

[suchende]

I can definitely understand the frustration. Our school systems have plenty of faults, and teachers are expected to cope with a lot, and are limited in what they can do to change things in their own classrooms.

That said, people who try to make real change, like challenging the unions, replacing failing schools with charter school, etc., are met with resistance by many teachers. Blogging about the variable that aren't going to change (half of all your students are below-average in intelligence, not all parents are exemplary, teens are behavioral challenges) doesn't seem like a productive dialogue.

I think the problem with a lot of the changes, or, at least the cause for a lot of the resistance on the part of the teachers, is that it's read less like "change for the better" and more like "abandoning a sinking ship." The unions, from the teachers perspective, are among the only entities who are on their side, helping them to fight against budget cuts, salary cuts, the push towards early retirement, ridiculous class sizes, and extended hours (personally, I think the unions can have issues of their own ... but they're still better than nothing). Charter schools? Don't tend to help teachers, either (they generally pay less, so they're not really viable career alternatives, and in some areas the practical result has been that the most privileged students are sucked away, leaving teachers with a mean of less qualified students).

The blogging isn't productive, no: ideally, instructors who feel this frustrated will pursue spots in union leadership themselves, lobby for more state funding, and pursue additional avenues for change. But it can be tough when they're seen as "the enemy" by the precise group they're trying to benefit: their students, and their students families.

I am a former AmeriCorps volunteer, and spent 2 years working in education in some capacity. In my LIMITED experience in two of our country's less privileged communities, I didn't get the sense that the teachers in my districts were trying to help their students. They were frustrated and fed up. Understandably. The administration treated them like they were children, and spent more time trying to placate than empower. Too many of the teachers I interacted with didn't want to help anyone but themselves, definitely not their students or their families. The sort of quotes that have been posted in this thread was definitely what you'd hear in the break room. In addition to racial stereotyping and other really unfair, negative attitudes about our students.

If the ship is sinking, abandon it.

 

[NovemberBride]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

Ksinger, I think this is an honest discussion. Honest does not mean one sided. As I said before, I have the utmost respect for teachers - I think they put up with a lot from both parents and students. That said, that does not mean that they are always in the right or that they can use that as an excuse for inappropriate behavior. I believe this woman used extremely poor judgment. I would say the same thing if she were a lawyer or a doctor.

Nothing is black and white, and like Kama said, sometimes it is hard to be objective when you are in the thick of an issue. Yes, there are parents out there who abuse teachers and students who don't respect their teachers. But there are also plenty of parents who have a lot of respect for teachers and teach their kids to do the same. Similarly, there are a lot of really good teachers that are doing their best with limited resources to teach our kids. But there are also some truly terrible teachers that know they can't be fired due to tenure and consequently don't care how they are viewed by parents and students.

I'd also like to point out that this issue is taking place in an extremely wealthy school district. The public schools in Bucks County, PA are as good as it gets. People pay a premium to buy homes in the district and some of the schools there are as good as any public school. The teachers are also paid handsomely - it is common for a tenured teacher there to make six figures. These teachers might be dealing with bratty kids and parents, but they aren't dealing with gangs,lack of parent involvement and many of the other issues that are cited as problems wit education today. My teacher friends would kill to get a job in that district - I am sure that is part of why they are so quick to fire her - parents here pay a lot of money for their kids to be in that school (through higher property taxes and home prices) and they have no tolerance for this. In addition, there is no lack of available teachers in this area. I have friends with masters degrees who had to substitute teach for years before getting a permanent teaching position in the Philadelphia suburbs.

 

[ksinger]

Absolutely fascinating. And predictable. The reason we can't have a honest discussion of education is playing out right in this thead.

ksinger, would you care to elaborate?

Yes, unfortunately I am at work and cannot "elaborate". In fact I probably shouldn't really even be posting this, although as you see, I DO from time to time.

Later.

And yes, my comment has been misinterpreted. Forced terseness will do that.

 

[House Cat]

I have kids in two very different positions in the school system. I have high school juniors and I have a child in kindergarten. I've seen a lot of things throughout my years in watching my older kids navigate through the school system. My 16 year old son is in AP classes right now and has some truly excellent teachers. Combined with his own personal desire to stay stimulated, he is doing well. My daughter, she's doing the same.

But, I have learned many new things this year. I'm no longer working, so I have the time and the opportunity to volunteer twice per week in my youngest son's kindergarten class. I am in California and we have been hit VERY hard with budget cuts this year. My son's school has four full kindergarten classes composed of at least 23 students. Kindergarten is a full day at his school.

I have learned that my youngest son's teacher is a saint, an amazing, incredible saint. I didn't realize HOW incredible she was until I volunteered that first day. These little people are FULL of energy and keeping that energy focused on one thing is like herding cats! She does it though! She has this down to a science. She gives the students "must do's" and "may do's" and it keeps them busy and focused for a full hour! When the children are having trouble focusing, she doesn't yell or criticise, she sings a little song about having their hands by their sides and their eyes focused and magically, they sing with her!

When there was a substitute teacher trying to teach the class, I've learned that my son's teacher was even more amazing than I thought . That day was very difficult for the children. The children's faces were dirty and shoes untied. This made me realize that not only was their teacher teaching them in a positive way, but she was also caring for them in the ways that WE parents would. On the day of the substitute teacher, I tied shoes, wiped noses, washed hands, and hugged many crying children.

I've learned that it really shows when a child is cared for at home and it really shows when they aren't. I think this carries through a child's entire life.

The classroom is overcrowded. I think there should be at least one more teacher in there, full time. I'll bet there are days when the children learn very little. I'm trying to figure out if I have more time in my schedule to help. There are other parents who volunteer too.

My son is really far from a perfect angel in class. He has a difficult time focusing, acts out regularly, and thinks school is "boring" already. I hope that my presence will help, but to be honest with you, when I'm volunteering, I'm not focusing on my child. I'm busy. My hope for my son is that he finds interest in learning at some point. I will never blame a teacher for my son's lack of interest though. I can see from this very early point that he's got other things on his mind.

For parents who are really wondering what is going on in their child's classrooms, I think the most eye opening thing they can do is volunteer. They don't even have to do it on a regular basis. Do it once or twice and see how the classroom runs, see how their child behaves in the classroom environment, see how the teacher handles the children. It might very well change how they feel about certain educational issues. It might show them that they knew nothing at all about what goes on with their child all day long.

 

[Circe]

If the ship is sinking, abandon it.

If it's a great, big, pricey ship that it's more effective to bail and patch than abandon and replace, I'm going to vote for rescuing it (the noble alternative of going down with the sinking ship has always struck me as inexpressibly silly). I had varied educational experiences growing up, myself: miserable public schools, miserable private schools that sank my folks into debt, city colleges, Ivy universities (as a student and a professor)- I'm like the Goldilocks of the educational system.

And, going off of those experiences? The institution doesn't matter, past a certain point (like, you know, it's nice to be able to afford enough chairs for everybody, and a nice metal detector or two if you need them). The teachers do matter. If we want to save the educational system, we need to raise the hiring standards (which probably means raising the salaries), give our hires the benefit of the doubt (no more silly mockable paint-by-the-numbers grading "comments," and much less in the way of rubrics), and do what we can do to keep the good teachers going instead of letting them get frustrated (or suspending them for nonsense "violations" while predators like the one SoCool mentions stay in the system).

Your AmeriCorp experience sounds immensely frustrating. Did it put you off the profession? I get the sense that you've transitioned to another field, and if that's the reason, I hope it won't come off as presumptuous if I chalk that up as another screw-up on the part of the existing system, and a loss to the field. We need talented, ambitious teachers, damnit!

 

[monarch64]

I'm pretty unbiased except for having a few acquaintances who are teachers and having been a student myself. All I can think when I read the article and this thread is that when I was being educated, I knew which teachers genuinely gave a sh*t about their students an which ones were seething inside and completely unhappy whether they verbalized it (either way) or not. I gave 100% in classes that were taught by the educators who engaged us, who seemed to actually care whether we passed, failed, or "sat in the 'C' row." Venting, whether online or otherwise, and using such contemptuous terms as "rat-like" and "frightfully dim" really, REALLY disgusts me. It feels to me like an anonymous "Slam Book" a la "Mean Girls." It is little wonder to me that this teacher/blogger feels so hateful towards her students--they can very likely sense her disdain and contempt for them as well as her personal misery, so why in the world would they WANT to bother representing themselves well in the classroom?

Btw, where is Haven? I'd love to hear her thoughts on this. I would've loved to have her as an educator--she seems like one who is constantly and genuinely concerned that her students receive the best and most positive training she can give. Oh, and Swimmer...hope to hear her thoughts as well.