Sickened watching the Olympics

[galeteia]

Here is this gorgeous display of artistic brilliance, and all I can think of is the disgusting oppression and abuse suffered by Tibet.

All I see is a nation''s PR wheels in overdrive. These statements about China believing in the harmonious energy of all life, harmony between man and nature, fuzzy wuzzies abound! Etc, etc, and yet there are sellers on Ebay advertising ''heirloom jewelery from Tibet, passed down through generations of Tibetan families'' that has obviously been stolen from said families. Protesters are currently enjoying relative freedom from being beaten, arrested, and even killed thanks to the PR-conscious environment of the Olympics.

Ugh.

As a theatre designer, I should be jumping up and down on my couch but instead I just feel angry, depressed, and disgusted by the hypocrisy.

 

[pennquaker09]

I felt that we should have not participated.

 

[CrookedRock]

I Tivo''d it and only got halfway through... I have to say though... That was one hell of a show!
The drums that lit up were so cool. Do they think they will sell them?

 

[HollyS]

Date: 8/9/2008 3:58:56 AM
Author: pennquaker09
I felt that we should have not participated.

No country should have participated.

And I won't watch.

 

[diamondfan]

China is hypocritical and it is tough to watch, but I respect the athletes who trained so hard, as the mother of a runner I know the hard work that goes in. China should not have been chosen, that is my view. Besides having the worst air quality which is harmful to the athletes, I also heard they pushed people out of their homes in order to build facilities for the games. People were thrown out of their homes and China is presenting this lovely together front for the world.

Their human rights violations are horrific and to allow them to be on the world''s stage like this when they are so in violation of basic human rights is sad to me.

 

[jcrow]

Date: 8/9/2008 11:06:45 AM
Author: diamondfan
China is hypocritical and it is tough to watch, but I respect the athletes who trained so hard, as the mother of a runner I know the hard work that goes in. China should not have been chosen, that is my view. Besides having the worst air quality which is harmful to the athletes, I also heard they pushed people out of their homes in order to build facilities for the games. People were thrown out of their homes and China is presenting this lovely together front for the world.


Their human rights violations are horrific and to allow them to be on the world''s stage like this when they are so in violation of basic human rights is sad to me.

this is how i feel as well. shame on china for running for the right to host the olympics and shame on whoever chose china to be the host.

it''s not the athletes fault. all they want to do is compete.

 

[Blair138]

I have to agree with Diamond and jcrow-China should not have been chosen-but that is not the fault of the athletes. They have trained very hard. I am watching to root for America-but that does not mean that I agree with anything that China has done at all.

 

[Linda W]

I agree with Caroline. I watched the opening last night. It was a fantastic show. It is not the athletes fault and I cheered for the Americans, as well as for the other athletes. They have all worked so darn hard.

Linda

 

[galeteia]

Date: 8/9/2008 11:06:45 AM
Author: diamondfan
Their human rights violations are horrific and to allow them to be on the world''s stage like this when they are so in violation of basic human rights is sad to me.

Amen.

I came on the thread today with trepidation, afraid that perhaps I was going to get scolded. I am so relieved to hear that others feel the same way. I told my guy that I felt by holding the Olympics there we as a global entity were essentially condoning what they have done and offering a position of privilege to China, despite the atrocities that they are continuing to perpetrate.

And I agree with those who have expressed concern about the health of the athletes; did you read the news about the athletes who got into a PR kerfuffle because they wore face masks when they arrived to protect themselves from the air, and China was insulted? They had to issue an apology.

The reasons China should not have been chosen are not the athlete''s fault, true. But that opening show wasn''t about the athletes, it was about the glory of China.

What really bothers me is now that China is in the spotlight, they are sweeping horrible things under the rug and pretending they aren''t there, and then posturing and preening like their hands aren''t bloody.

 

[Linda W]

OMG they had to apologize??? Poor China was insulted??? What a joke. I have terrible asthma, I would have choked to death on that horrible air. I don''t know how those poor athletes can even participate in that god awful air.


Linda

 

[CrookedRock]

I really don''t think any country is free of controversy. Maybe New Zealand...

China has had and still does have problems... But so do we (USA).

Bottom line is... It''s all about the athletes.

 

[WishfulThinking]

You all took the words right out of my mouth. I commented on this in the thread about the Olympics in the family section of the site.

It makes me so sad and angry that the Olympics Committee thought it was appropriate to hold the Olympics in China. IMO it''s the worst mistake they''ve made since the Berlin Olympics in the 1930s. It''s the same display of nationalism and stupendous glory, great nations yeah yeah yeah, yadayadayada propaganda. In this context it horrifies me. That is why I opted out of the Opening Ceremonies. Those ceremonies had nothing at all to do with the athletes, and I wanted nothing to do with them.

I am so worried and scared for my friends in Tibet and their families. My college has a fairly high number of Tibetan students, most of whom are in the upper-classes and thus the luckier of those in Tibet when it comes to mobility and ability to avoid the worst atrocities by going abroad. The horror stories I have heard from them about their treatment by the Chinese government make me sick.

So many people have lectured me about how the Olympics are a time for international peace and coming together to celebrate athletic ability, and that this political aspect should be pushed aside. While the Olympics are obviously about athletics, they are not magically free from politics. If they are truly supposed to symbolize international harmony and all that jazz, why in the world would they pick China?! The contradiction needs to be pointed out, and the egregious human rights violations that are occurring both in China [the ousting of people from their homes to make room for the Olympics], in Tibet, and elsewhere, such as China''s involvement in the Darfur region of Sudan need to be voiced by those of us fortunate enough to be able to speak out. Being quiet about it doesn''t make sense to me; I am lucky to have the freedom of speak with which to speak out.

I will still probably watch parts of the Olympics. I love the gymnastics, especially, and I think all the athletes deserve praise for their impressive training and accomplishments.* I wish no one had participated in the Olympics to begin with, but I can''t really change that.What I can do is speak out loud and clear against the choice to have the Olympics in China, and make sure everyone around me knows the reality of the situation.

*This is pretty amazing, and might interest some of you: http://current.com/items/89179153_muslim_sportswomen_gain_standing_in_beijing

Also, I think it''s a real shame that the athletes from the so-called "developed" countries have such an advantage over athletes from some of the so-called "less developed" [I hate those terms, so bear with me, please] due to better training facilities and equipment, etc. It is such an amazement and inspiration to me to see some athletes from the less wealthy teams and who have trained under poor or harsh conditions beating us out sometimes. I love the American teams, but we are so very fortunate, and I wish the playing field were more equalized.

 

[tanuki]

It''s a little hypocritical to complain about China being the site for the Olympics when we are happy as customers to send jobs and money into the Chinese economy by buying items made by people who work under working conditions we would never allow in the US because they come at a bargain price and when we are borrowing billions of dollars from China to carry out whatever war we we want to participate without going thru the pain of actually paying for it in real time.

Remember "War Bonds" and the sacrifices people made during World War Two to support the war effort? That was because we weren'' at that time a borrower nation. We have run up a tab similar to the cost of World War Two for the Iraq war without having to do anything more than sign up for loans from China after flooding their banks with our dollars in the biggest transfer of money in the history of the world.

We should consider very carefully about insulting the Chinese with some "holier than thou attitude". China owns us.
They could crush us in a heartbeat if they pulled the plug on imports or loans to America.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 8/10/2008 6:05:00 PM
Author: tanuki
It''s a little hypocritical to complain about China being the site for the Olympics when we are happy as customers to send jobs and money into the Chinese economy by buying items made by people who work under working conditions we would never allow in the US because they come at a bargain price and when we are borrowing billions of dollars from China to carry out whatever war we we want to participate without going thru the pain of actually paying for it in real time.

Remember ''War Bonds'' and the sacrifices people made during World War Two to support the war effort? That was because we weren'' at that time a borrower nation. We have run up a tab similar to the cost of World War Two for the Iraq war without having to do anything more than sign up for loans from China after flooding their banks with our dollars in the biggest transfer of money in the history of the world.

We should consider very carefully about insulting the Chinese with some ''holier than thou attitude''. China owns us.
They could crush us in a heartbeat if they pulled the plug on imports or loans to America.

Ditto to this. I was shocked and a little horrified when China was chosen to host the 2008 Olympics, but am much more horrified at how vulnerable we are to them. $500 billion and counting....

I didn''t watch the opening ceremonies and while I''m sure I will watch a few events, I''m really not excited about the olympics this year. It''s depressing.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 8/10/2008 6:05:00 PM
Author: tanuki
It''s a little hypocritical to complain about China being the site for the Olympics when we are happy as customers to send jobs and money into the Chinese economy by buying items made by people who work under working conditions we would never allow in the US because they come at a bargain price and when we are borrowing billions of dollars from China to carry out whatever war we we want to participate without going thru the pain of actually paying for it in real time.


Remember ''War Bonds'' and the sacrifices people made during World War Two to support the war effort? That was because we weren'' at that time a borrower nation. We have run up a tab similar to the cost of World War Two for the Iraq war without having to do anything more than sign up for loans from China after flooding their banks with our dollars in the biggest transfer of money in the history of the world.


We should consider very carefully about insulting the Chinese with some ''holier than thou attitude''. China owns us.

They could crush us in a heartbeat if they pulled the plug on imports or loans to America.

If I were the US government, that would be hypocrisy. In my case, it means very little. I can only speak for myself, but I do not support the war, borrowing from other countries no matter which they are, or buying goods manufactured in China.

What you''re essentially saying is that we are responsible for the actions of the US government in supporting those things. I didn''t vote for politicians who started a war and borrowed until China owned us. I am doing absolutely everything in my power to make sure those people are no longer part of my government. We are each only one person, and individually you cannot possibly believe it is correct to hold us all responsible for a government that realistically speaking we cannot control.

I am not "happy" to do those things, as you have suggested, nor are many other people I know. I don''t think that admitting the wrongs of the country I live in [and there are MANY] negates the deplorable actions of the Chinese government. Two wrongs don''t make human rights violations disappear. China''s human rights violations are not fair game because of the human rights violations that US-run international corporations perpetrate against workers in many parts of the world. I think we can all recognize that all of those things are bad and should stop; this thread has a very narrow scope, and assuming that we are hypocritical because of anything we''ve said here is illogical.

 

[miraclesrule]

So someone was posting in the other Olympics thread regarding the Chinese teams. What is the deal about them being below the average age for their gymnasts? I missed the controversy because I had a lonnngggg meeting tonight with the Board of our non-profit.

Since our global organization is "Kids for Peace", I have a passion for kids. Do they really snatch these kids away from their parents at age 3 and then refuse to let the kids go home? The thought of that sickens me.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

There is a minimum age to compete and essentially everybody feels that the Chinese government forged the competitors'' passports/birth certificates to make it appear they are older than their real age. Seriously, I couldn''t watch the Chinese gymnasts compete, a couple of them look maybe 12 years old? It literally brought me to tears.

The Romanian gymnasts "breeding" program sickened those in the industry for many years. Girls would be plucked from their parents at the age of 2-3 and would train in camps for years--those who showed the most promise would do nothing but train, train, train. Romania has since stopped these types of programs (as discussed last night) and are no longer top contenders, but China is now doing the same thing. Ugh, those girls are just so young.

 

[Delster]

I don't know if this has made the news in the States, but there's been quite a bit of noise over here about the opening ceremony pzazz. Seems some of the fireworks display was faked, and the little girl who sang was miming because the child who really sang wasn't deemed pretty enough:

Irish Times article re Olympics 08 Opening Ceremony



I agree with the posts about China not being an appropriate host to have chosen. But I am watching because I think the athletes deserve to be supported.

Unlike Ireland's Olympic logistics team who couldn't even bring the right hats to Beijing, so one of our swimmers had to stop mid race to fix her goggles when the hat pulled them off! Agh!

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 8/13/2008 2:27:13 AM
Author: miraclesrule
So someone was posting in the other Olympics thread regarding the Chinese teams. What is the deal about them being below the average age for their gymnasts? I missed the controversy because I had a lonnngggg meeting tonight with the Board of our non-profit.

Since our global organization is 'Kids for Peace', I have a passion for kids. Do they really snatch these kids away from their parents at age 3 and then refuse to let the kids go home? The thought of that sickens me.

As for the lip-syncing "scandal," I think the media is blowing it way out of proportion. People lip-sync all the time, and as long as the girl who actually sang it knew about it and didn't care (she said she was honored), I don't see a problem IMHO. The girl who they used is an actress, so it was just like any other commercial, etc. she does. The opening ceremonies was a huge show, and was treated as such. It is clear from the articles quoting the singer (that I've read) that she understood what was being done and was happy to lend her voice to the ceremonies. It was like a couple minutes for an Olympic ceremony, it's not like they were selling records or anything (although I'm sure it happens there too!).

Also, I am very careful to judge the way they train gymnasts in other parts of the world. Until you live in a communist-run country, it is hard to imagine how horrible of a life you can have if you don't "go with the flow." We don't know these womens's family situations, so until I hear she was abused or kidnapped from her family I'm not going to say negative things about it...for all we know her life is 100x better than it ever would've been without gymnastics. The announcers said that when Cheng Fei called her parents to ask to come home, her PARENTS told her to stay because they knew it meant a better life, not that the coaches, etc. forced her to stay.

Everyone is saying that China is sweeping their atrocities under a rug, but what did you expect? I hardly believed they would issue an apology for their human rights violations during the Opening Ceremonies. That would be like having the Olympics in L.A. & opening with a montage of images from Gitmo...while factually true, it's just not going to happen. Of course China is going to take this opportunity to portray itself in the best light possible; that's what every country does when they host such events.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 8/13/2008 2:27:13 AM
Author: miraclesrule
So someone was posting in the other Olympics thread regarding the Chinese teams. What is the deal about them being below the average age for their gymnasts? I missed the controversy because I had a lonnngggg meeting tonight with the Board of our non-profit.

Since our global organization is 'Kids for Peace', I have a passion for kids. Do they really snatch these kids away from their parents at age 3 and then refuse to let the kids go home? The thought of that sickens me.

From what I understand there are 3 Chinese gymnasts who are under question-and when I say under question, I mean, everyone connected to the sport knows it, but can't do anything about it. One of the Chinese girls does not look a day over twelve. I'm with Bela. He believes that there shouldn't be an age restriction but because there is, there should be consequences for those who break it. I can totally see that. If there are rules, they need to be followed. The problem here is that it's the Chinese government that has falsified these documents, and there is no paper trail that anyone else can follow.

What sucks for these girls is that they will have to lie forever more in the public gymnastics circuit, that they were 16 in 2008. Because they are so young they will probably be on the Chinese gymnastics team for a very long time-if that one is actually 12, she'll be only 16 at 2012, 20 at 2016, 24 at 2020. Unless she has a huge growth spurt, in which case she probably won't be able to continue participating because girls are normally done growing at 16, and the problem of becoming too tall for the sport.

I think that these Chinese gymnast camps are truly deplorable. Taking a child away from their family at such a young age is probably pretty traumatizing for all involved. I understand that it's a different type of government and society that what we Americans are used to, but I still don't agree with it.

ETA: the lip-synching...Not surprised. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last time. I don't care if the little girl was honored to have sung-I know that Asian cultures are all about honor- but I think she was done a great disservice. I personally thought she was adorable-cuter than the perfect little doll that was out there acting like she was singing.

There is an American singer-Jill Scott who is overweight who would only send out sample tapes of her singing. Once a record company called her and sang her praises and couldn't stop talking about how amazing her voice was, but before they signed her, could they just have a picture. She refused saying that it was her voice that mattered, and that her looks shouldn't be that important-and if her looks were that important to that record company, then they wouldn't be a good match. So she declined. And I have to say, good for her.

 

[vita*dolce]

i''ve been feeling conflicted watching the olympics, too!! especially when they talk about the lives of the chinese athletes and how they''re taken away from their families at extremely young ages and plugged into this "machine" for training. it''s so sad... especially the little gymnasts. the commentators said that they only see their families once a year and that they''ve been in this program since they were about 3.

they also said that 3 of the women on the gymnastics team are under the qualifying age of 16... doesn''t it seem like they shouldn''t be given the gold medal if they''re cheating??? is it just me?

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 8/13/2008 12:42:24 PM
Author: vita*dolce
they also said that 3 of the women on the gymnastics team are under the qualifying age of 16... doesn''t it seem like they shouldn''t be given the gold medal if they''re cheating??? is it just me?

No it''s not just you, but nothing can be proven. I think that if it is, there is the distinct possibility that their gold medals could be revoked-even though they were the best out there.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 8/13/2008 12:34:23 PM
Author: FrekeChild

From what I understand there are 3 Chinese gymnasts who are under question-and when I say under question, I mean, everyone connected to the sport knows it, but can't do anything about it. One of the Chinese girls does not look a day over twelve. I'm with Bela. He believes that there shouldn't be an age restriction but because there is, there should be consequences for those who break it. I can totally see that. If there are rules, they need to be followed. The problem here is that it's the Chinese government that has falsified these documents, and there is no paper trail that anyone else can follow.

What sucks for these girls is that they will have to lie forever more in the public gymnastics circuit, that they were 16 in 2008. Because they are so young they will probably be on the Chinese gymnastics team for a very long time-if that one is actually 12, she'll be only 16 at 2012, 20 at 2016, 24 at 2020. Unless she has a huge growth spurt, in which case she probably won't be able to continue participating because girls are normally done growing at 16, and the problem of becoming too tall for the sport.

I think that these Chinese gymnast camps are truly deplorable. Taking a child away from their family at such a young age is probably pretty traumatizing for all involved. I understand that it's a different type of government and society that what we Americans are used to, but I still don't agree with it.

ETA: the lip-synching...Not surprised. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last time. I don't care if the little girl was honored to have sung-I know that Asian cultures are all about honor- but I think she was done a great disservice. I personally thought she was adorable-cuter than the perfect little doll that was out there acting like she was singing.

There is an American singer-Jill Scott who is overweight who would only send out sample tapes of her singing. Once a record company called her and sang her praises and couldn't stop talking about how amazing her voice was, but before they signed her, could they just have a picture. She refused saying that it was her voice that mattered, and that her looks shouldn't be that important-and if her looks were that important to that record company, then they wouldn't be a good match. So she declined. And I have to say, good for her.

If there is no paper trail and no real proof of "falsifying" documents, then everyone is relying on secondhand (at least) information, so I really think it's a moot point and makes Bela appear to be a bitter old man. Just imagine if someone accuses an Olympic athlete of doping (something Bela has called the age controversy) without any proof...someone appears to have been on steroids because they are much bigger than the rest of the competition and several people say that they read online that the person takes steroids (a la NYT)...such an accusation would forever tarnish someone's career and achievements and should be done so only when concrete evidence can be presented. To do otherwise is irresponsible, IMHO. I have not seen any documents stating otherwise, so for me it's innocent until proven guilty. To go from someone's looks alone is ridiculous IMHO...as I stated in the Family & Home thread, I have cousins in VN that look just like those girls and they are 16 & 17.

As for the lip-syncing...would I have wanted my voice lip-synced by someone else? No. Does that mean everyone feels that way? No. If the person whose voice is being used is informed of the situation and does not care, I don't see why the media is making a HUGE deal about it because it happens everyday and everywhere. And yes, Jill Scott is very talented, but compare her popularity (and record sales) to Britney or even Alicia Keys or Beyonce...it's all about image. Also, as I stated above, this was about two minutes of an opening ceremony, not some record deal like Milli Vanilli.

As for the camps, I really would want more information before I completely condemn them. What if the girl's family is destitute (common in communist countries) and gymnastics offers her a better life, as well as a better one for her family? I will never look down on parents who give up their children for a better life, and until I read accounts of the gymnasts being abused in these camps or "taken" from their families I really can't judge them.

ETA: I meant "give up their children" as in adoption, etc...not the sex slave industry! LOL I reread my post and realized it might sound like that!

 

[FrekeChild]

IndyGirl22,
You''re entitled to your opinion. One of the three girls has not participated in any international events until 2008-that is a big indicator, but it is far from being the only one. Shawn Johnson competed in the Pan-American Championship and the Pacific Alliance Championship at the age of 14-both are international events. He Kexin has only competed at the international level this year-and she is purported to being the youngest on the team.

Deng Linlin''s (the one missing the tooth) wiki page reads:
Her officially listed birth date is April 21, 1992,[2] although it is listed as May 22, 1993 elsewhere.

Bela Karolyi has claimed that both Deng and the Chinese government have falsified official documents in order to make Deng appear old enough to compete in the Olympics. [4] Additionally, several news outlets including the New York Times, have cited prior information from China''s own government sanctioned newspaper that contradicts the claims of all their female gymnasts being 16 years of age or older. [5] link

Here are the other ones:
He Kexin''s wiki
Yang Yilin''s wiki
Jiang Yuyuan''s wiki

And here is a NYT article
It is NOT complete speculation. And it is NOT completely based on looks. It was my opinion that the girl looks no older than 12, and it is your opinion that your cousins in VN that are 16 and 17 look like them.

I would listen to Jill Scott before I''d listen to Britney, Alicia or Beyonce, because a record is about the music, not the entertainment. And I think all three of those examples have shown that they aren''t musicians who are in it purely for the love of music. They are entertainment machines. Besides, I''m not talking about record deals or making money. It''s about having dignity and commanding respect for having talent. And why would a girl who is around 7 years old say that she is upset? At that age, she probably doesn''t really understand the full situation, or her parents have coached her well and she doesn''t want to displease them. That''s what kids do at that age-try to please their parents and their elders.

No one has said anything about abuse in the camps. And it''s a well known fact that the children are taken from their homes. It just depends on your definition of taken. Mine is that they are removed from their home. Period. I think it''s been made clear that these girls (and boys) families are better off for them going to these camps and succeeding.

 

[purrfectpear]

It''s not the lip syncing that disturbed me, it the reason WHY they said the real singer couldn''t be filmed. "not cute enough"....excuse me, but I saw the pic of that little girl and she was plenty cute. The real singer was not told until just a few hours before the ceremony that she would be switched according to the news report I read. It''s a pity she was denied the attention that the lip syncher was getting before the true status was discovered.

Some Chinese do have a different value system regarding their young children than here in the American culture. In 1981 I was working with a Director of a major corp that was Chinese. He and his wife had a son that was 5 and a daughter age 7. He told me he would be sending the 5 year old back to China to live with the father''s parents. I was surpised that the wife was OK with being parted from her 5 year old son for the next 13 years. David told me that it was important for the son to be brought up in China with Chinese ways and superior education, and that the wife had no say in it. She got to keep the daughter because "they don''t matter, their education will be adequate in America"

I really liked working with this guy as he was super bright and a great manager, but boy did that shock the heck out of me.

 

[gogosi]

Sorry for the long post but I am so sick of the North American media depicting such horrible images of some parts of the world when they are completely false. I don’t know about the camps in China but I would like to clarify some things in regards to the training camps in Romania. I was born in Romania and lived there till I was 11. Coaches did tour the country yearly to look for talent and if they saw it in you, you would be offered to go to Deva (that’s the city where the training camp was). Every little girl in Romania dreamed to get selected to be trained as a gymnast. I remember coming home in tears after I didn''t get picked, I was devastated. Parents did have a choice in weather or not they want their kids to go or not. When I was 8 I was selected for tennis and could''ve have gone in the intensive training camps but my parents didn''t want me to, so I didn''t end up going, still bitter about that at times, wonder what could’ve happened. So no one kidnapped kids or stole them from their homes. Some of you referred to “taken from their home” as bad thing regardless of it being voluntary or not … in Romania most kids didn’t grow up in their parent’s home, they would usually be taken in by the grand parents, since day care and such was pretty bad… so really in Romania that was no big deal. I grew up with my grand parents and would see my parents every few months or so and that was just normal… I had a great childhood and couldn’t imagine it any other way.

The reality was Romania treated its professional athletes very well, and they were given somewhat of a special status. In camp, the government paid for everything- training, lodging, food, entertainment etc., for a lot of families that was something that under any other circumstances they could never be able to offer their children. A lot of parents chose to send their kids because it was a way of assuring them a future. I mean as a parent you had 3 options for your kids – 1 send them to university to become a doctor, engineer or teacher (for like 50 years those were the only professions that were deemed respectable), 2- send them to some technical school to end up working in some factory on the assembly line, 3- if you were talented you would go through the camps and end up coaching or teaching at the end of your athletic career, or in some cases if they were smart enough they would end up with university degrees and become a engineer or teacher. To get into university it was very tough. Think the whole country competing for 1000 spots or so. I had a cousin that got a 98% on her entrance exam and it was too low she didn’t get in. So parents proudly sent their kids to training camps because as much as all parents would love for their kids to become doctors or engineers where you have to be in the top 1-2% to get there if another good option becomes available you take it.

They now took out the camps not because of the “treatment of athletes” as the west calls it, but because the government no longer wants to pay for it. Now with Romania entering the EU and trying to become more westernized they decided to take away all the support for athletic programs since from an economic stand point it is not an efficient use of funds. So of course they are not producing any more medal athletes, when it costs a family 50% of their income to pay for coaches of course your number of athletes will drop substantially and so will your medal potential.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 8/13/2008 1:35:08 PM
Author: FrekeChild
IndyGirl22,
You''re entitled to your opinion. One of the three girls has not participated in any international events until 2008-that is a big indicator, but it is far from being the only one. Shawn Johnson competed in the Pan-American Championship and the Pacific Alliance Championship at the age of 14-both are international events. He Kexin has only competed at the international level this year-and she is purported to being the youngest on the team.

Deng Linlin''s (the one missing the tooth) wiki page reads:
Her officially listed birth date is April 21, 1992,[2] although it is listed as May 22, 1993 elsewhere.

Bela Karolyi has claimed that both Deng and the Chinese government have falsified official documents in order to make Deng appear old enough to compete in the Olympics. [4] Additionally, several news outlets including the New York Times, have cited prior information from China''s own government sanctioned newspaper that contradicts the claims of all their female gymnasts being 16 years of age or older. [5] link

Here are the other ones:
He Kexin''s wiki
Yang Yilin''s wiki
Jiang Yuyuan''s wiki

And here is a NYT article
It is NOT complete speculation. And it is NOT completely based on looks. It was my opinion that the girl looks no older than 12, and it is your opinion that your cousins in VN that are 16 and 17 look like them.

I would listen to Jill Scott before I''d listen to Britney, Alicia or Beyonce, because a record is about the music, not the entertainment. And I think all three of those examples have shown that they aren''t musicians who are in it purely for the love of music. They are entertainment machines. Besides, I''m not talking about record deals or making money. It''s about having dignity and commanding respect for having talent. And why would a girl who is around 7 years old say that she is upset? At that age, she probably doesn''t really understand the full situation, or her parents have coached her well and she doesn''t want to displease them. That''s what kids do at that age-try to please their parents and their elders.

No one has said anything about abuse in the camps. And it''s a well known fact that the children are taken from their homes. It just depends on your definition of taken. Mine is that they are removed from their home. Period. I think it''s been made clear that these girls (and boys) families are better off for them going to these camps and succeeding.

I am aware of what wikipedia says and I do not rely on wiki for my information because anyone can alter/edit "facts" as they please. I''ve read biographies on all of the girls before posting, of course. If the proper documents are in place, I just think it''s dangerous for respected people in the sport to fling around accusations on national TV without proof. As I stated earlier, if someone is truly breaking the rules and there is concrete evidence of it, then by all means, kick them out and sanction them. Otherwise, they are simply unproven allegations that hurt careers and tarnish reputations. Both the Karolyis have stated they have no proof, and until dental records are kept on every gymnast who could potentially compete in the Olympics someday to verify age, I don''t think their observations did any good for the sport. Online registration lists vs. passports...I believe the passports. I think this is the link you meant to post to me.

I also realize that it is my opinion about the appearances of the girls, but that opinion comes from several trips to Asia and personal relatives of the same age. I don''t really care if anyone believes me or the Chinese government, I just have a problem with the lack of proof at issue here. If there had been some real proof I am positive it would have come out by now with all the speculation. If the IOC and FIG aren''t going to investigate further, Bela is just damaging the sport''s image.

You''re entitled to your opinion about what constitutes dignity and respect. But perhaps, in that girl''s opinion, which is the one that really matters here, dignity and respect was being selected to be the voice during the Opening Ceremonies. I''m not going to place a value judgment on her happiness to be chosen and say she should be outraged because it was her voice and those are her feelings. BTW, I also don''t see how you could say Jill Scott isn''t an entertainment machine...she has appeared in several films and television shows and I doubt she would be offended to be grouped with Alicia Keys.

Anyway, we both have strong, opposing viewpoints on these issues and I see your points, although I don''t agree with them.

GOGOSI - Thank you for posting your insight on this topic! I haven''t read anywhere that the girls are "taken from their homes," so if anyone sees a factual article about this I would love to read it! Of course, no one wants these gymnasts to be abused and in western cultures it may seem somewhat inhumane to live away from your parents, but many times it is an escape to a better life for everyone involved.

 

[allycat0303]

I wrote a 100 + thesis on female athletes (figure skaters and gymnasts) to graduate high school, and this is something I feel very strongly about.

I want to emphasize that the girls are not *taken* i.e, the impression that the governement takes them forcibly out of their home with them kicking and screaming and the parents crying. At an early age, the governement looks for children with specific attributes (flexibility, body type) that may be conducive to becoming and elite athlete. Parents are then approached and asked if they would be intrested in sending the child to training camps which are usually very far from home. The child is cared for, and the family recieves a salary. When they spoke of the child crying and wanting to come home, it is the FAMILY that refuses to let them come home.

For many reasons a) If you are a mother with 2-3 kids to care for, and no money, the salary paid by the governement is very welcome
b) Most of these girls come from poor peasent communities, when a girl is selected, this is a chance for a better life for her AND her family.

The whole 16 year old rule, was made to try and prevent the RAMPANT eating disorders that exist in figure skating and gymnastics. The sport demands pre-pubescent skinny, small hips, no breasts body. The smaller you are, the better you are. The rationalization was by limiting the age, you could erase the tendency of coaches to stop putting pressure on girls to starve themselves to meet this ideal. Of course, it''s silly because what you have is 14-15 year old champions who will simply continue to starve themselves until they are 16+ to be able to compete.

Furthurmore, this a pretty sensationalist story. MOST gymnasts and figure skaters in the United States and Canada will live with their coaches to be near training centers. And MANY will call home at one point crying to come home. And to be honest, MOST parents say NO. The reason, well after investing about $20 000 a year for 8-9 years, the investment is too great. There are always moments of discouragement along the way, and you have to encourage your child *strongly* to stay.

I was trained as an elite figure skater since I was 4 years old, this ended when I was 16 years old due to injury. I was part of the generation when *being tiny* wasn''t nearly as harsh as it is now. And let me tell you, what goes on behind the scenes of training elite figure skaters and gymnists is disgusting. They are starved, verbally abused, and worked until their bodies break down.

There''s a book called Little girls, in pretty boxes, which gives a pretty good idea of what these sports are like. And I can honestly say, the author paints a prettier picture of what the sport actually IS (i.e, it''s actually worst). At one point she calls these sports "celebrated child abuse". I have to agree, but this is something that China, the US, Canada, and virtually every country that produces elite gymnasts and figure skaters is guilty of.

 

[princesss]

I thought this was interesting: Huffington Post article about 14 year old gymnast I don''t think it counts as solid proof at all, but it''s interesting.

 

[swimmer]

I just got back home to the US from Argentina, and when watching the Olympics in bars (in Spanish) it really drove home the simply amazing nature of nationalism''s good side. Normally we only see the bad, riots at football matches, xenophobia, racism, etc. But to jump up and down screaming while watching a womens'' field hockey game with a ton of Argentines screaming their heads off. Wow. They were so happy for their fellow citizens and how hard they worked.
It transcended nationality really.

It would have been a devastating blow to thousands of athletes if China had been boycotted and not done a single thing to the govt of the Peoples Republic of China.

My swim coach was not able to swim in 1980 when the US was boycotting because Russia had invaded Afghanistan (lets not even get into the ironies there) My coach had won 2 olympic golds in 76, the disappointment almost killed him. The alcohol nearly did.

Galateia, no need to "jump up and down on your couch" in outrage donate your money to rebuild schools in China, Yao Ming has set up a huge charity for this, and donated millions. Short on money? Donate some of your time tutoring or otherwise assisting one or more of the many minority groups in the US that have historically or are currently oppressed. Remember that when the Dali Lama was asked what Americans can do to help Tibetans, he shrugged and said to lead virtuous lives and think kindly of Tibet. He has said that he is not interested in a Free Tibet...

Great points Tanuki, IndyGirl, NEL, Purrfectpear, and thank you gogosi for sharing your very insightful perspective. Many of us grew up in "not typical American" situations in order to help our families and our own development. That is sometimes difficult to comprehend. When working in China, I once spend a month in cities that are now flooded by the Three Gorges Dam, people kept telling me (with no govt provocation) that their grandchildrens'' generation would be benefited by their loss of property and so it was worth it. Being rather thoroughly Americanized, it was a shock to me, but taking the long picture is more possible in a land of over a billion with 6,000 years of recorded history.

I''m proud of China for pulling this off and am certain that like South Korea before them, the Olympics will bring in a breath of the promise of free speech and a lightening of governmental restrictions. Yeah to all the amazing athletes, I can''t wait to watch more kick-a** Jamaican women sprint. They are goddesses! You can chose to not watch, but all you are doing is cheating yourself of the opportunity to see a celebration of life.