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Sickened watching the Olympics

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swimmer

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Interesting article on Chinese perspective on the Olympics in the shadow of the earthquake: link
 

Anna0499

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I just wanted to share that I have been reading up on age controversies in gymnastics & it seems that document falsification has occurred many times in the past. However, the People's Republic of Korea, who falsified the age of a gymnast competing in a World Championship, has ever been punished. I find that odd & inconsistent. Several Romanian & Russian gymnasts have come forward & admitted to being underage after winning World Championship & Olympic titles, but the FIG has not taken any action in stripping them of their medals or sanctioning their countries. I wonder if Bela knew about any of these violations? Since the IOC/FIG has a long history of being very passive in enforcing the age requirements even when solid proof is available, so it makes more sense why they would not be gungho with investigating controversies now when speculation & internet sites are the only proof presented.

ETA: Obviously, this information has been common knowledge in the gymnastics world for years, but I just wanted to share in case those out-of-the-know like myself were interested.
 

Diamond Confused

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Date: 8/9/2008 3:57:29 PM
Author: CrookedRock
I really don''t think any country is free of controversy. Maybe New Zealand...

China has had and still does have problems... But so do we (USA).

Bottom line is... It''s all about the athletes.
I completely agree... Los Angeles hosted the Olympics during the Cold War. Nobody made a big fuss about that.
 

meresal

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Date: 8/21/2008 2:36:29 PM
Author: Diamond Confused




Date: 8/9/2008 3:57:29 PM
Author: CrookedRock
I really don't think any country is free of controversy. Maybe New Zealand...

China has had and still does have problems... But so do we (USA).

Bottom line is... It's all about the athletes.
I completely agree... Los Angeles hosted the Olympics during the Cold War. Nobody made a big fuss about that.
Oooh, actually about 13 countires boycotted those olympics... sorry.

ETA: The Soviet Union and most of their allies. Google should turn up many articles.
 

Diamond Confused

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Date: 8/21/2008 3:08:51 PM
Author: meresal

Date: 8/21/2008 2:36:29 PM
Author: Diamond Confused





Date: 8/9/2008 3:57:29 PM
Author: CrookedRock
I really don''t think any country is free of controversy. Maybe New Zealand...

China has had and still does have problems... But so do we (USA).

Bottom line is... It''s all about the athletes.
I completely agree... Los Angeles hosted the Olympics during the Cold War. Nobody made a big fuss about that.
Oooh, actually about 13 countires boycotted those olympics... sorry.

ETA: The Soviet Union and most of their allies. Google should turn up many articles.
I wasn''t refering to whether or not other countries boycotted. What I meant is the hypocracy many American''s are displaying. They are quick to judge China for having the audacity to host the Olympics but forget we were in the same position.

I personally don''t think that a nations actions should matter when it comes to the Olympics. We''re not celebrating China, we''re celebrating the world. And maybe it''s a good thing. It has opened the entire world''s eyes to what is going on in that country.
 

galeteia

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Date: 8/21/2008 4:28:44 PM
Author: Diamond Confused
I wasn't refering to whether or not other countries boycotted. What I meant is the hypocracy many American's are displaying. They are quick to judge China for having the audacity to host the Olympics but forget we were in the same position.

I am not an American.

If I were, it would not be hypocritical to point out atrocities another country is committing if you are also eager to point out and affect the hypocrisies your own country is committing.
 

Anna0499

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Wow...I must say I think that is OUTRAGEOUS! Not because it may or may not be true, but because the competition is very much over & NO Romanian or Russian gymnasts have been stripped of their medals after the fact & after admitting they were underage during competition. It would be clearly inconsistent of the IOC/FIG to take action now, days after the competition, when they refused to do anything with the other gymnasts. I would hate to think it has something to do with race, but the IOC is very European-dominated & if the investigation results in the stripping of medals I will definitely think it has to do with the national origin of the gymnasts.
 

FrekeChild

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I disagree Indy. I believe the Russian/Romanian Gymnasts being too young was revealed well after the fact of the olympics being held. We''re talking years. The Chinese have been revealed to falsify athletes ages for a while, and just now they have *proof* while the olympics is still going on. I would not be surprised if her medals are revoked.

Having said that, I think it sucks. Poor thing-she did her best, she did very well, and she did what they told her to-and now she''s getting shamed for it.

I''m glad they are taking this seriously. And I think it has nothing to do with the race/ethnicity of the athlete. They are the sponsor country. Why should the ethnicity matter? They broke the rules. Period. That''s what this is all about. If it was an American or a Russian or whatever, I think this would still be an issue.

And it should be. Everyone is aware of the rules beforehand.

Rules are rules. I don''t think this particular one should exist, but it''s still in existence, so they should be abiding by it.
 

Anna0499

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Date: 8/21/2008 10:55:09 PM
Author: FrekeChild
I disagree Indy. I believe the Russian/Romanian Gymnasts being too young was revealed well after the fact of the olympics being held. We're talking years. The Chinese have been revealed to falsify athletes ages for a while, and just now they have *proof* while the olympics is still going on. I would not be surprised if her medals are revoked.

Having said that, I think it sucks. Poor thing-she did her best, she did very well, and she did what they told her to-and now she's getting shamed for it.

I'm glad they are taking this seriously. And I think it has nothing to do with the race/ethnicity of the athlete. They are the sponsor country. Why should the ethnicity matter? They broke the rules. Period. That's what this is all about. If it was an American or a Russian or whatever, I think this would still be an issue.

And it should be. Everyone is aware of the rules beforehand.

Rules are rules. I don't think this particular one should exist, but it's still in existence, so they should be abiding by it.
I see your point, but if rules are rules, then why does how far after the competition occurs the violation is found matter?
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Isn't a violation a violation in that case? That is why I questioned the national origin of the gymnasts, because that could possibly be an issue since the only gymnast to be punished for being underage is Korean (the truth came to light WAY after the competition in that case as well). The Romanian & Russian violators are still to this day listed as Olympic/World Champions even though they broke the rules. My issue isn't with the investigation, but with the inconsistent punishments if the gymnasts are stripped of their medals as the article calls for.

I do wonder if anything will come out of the investigation though; many people have already assumed the Chinese will be strung up by the IOC/FIG, but I don't really see that happening given the history of the IOC/FIG. Maybe though...I don't know what kind of "new evidence" they have found.

I do agree that the rules are the rules, which is why I didn't understand why the same people (not you) who were heated about the age rule thought Nastia should've been an exception to the tiebreak rule.

ETA: I actually don't think teams without medal contenders are subject to the same scrutiny...which is where the ethnicity DOES matter - not because of racism, but because no one cares about these things if you aren't a threat.
 

FrekeChild

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Hahahaha at your ETA. It''s so pathetically true. For all we know, Australia''s team could have been made up of 6 year olds.

I think the main difference with to Romanians/Russians is that we''re just in a different age now. The internet changed things. Apparently some hacker found some stuff that was cached...I don''t know, it''s a whole lot of mess.

Whatever. I just hope they figure it out enough to give reasonable evidence one way or another, so this BS will END already. Because I''m getting sick of it.

So I''m going to watch Dalhausser and Rogers. Where there isn''t any dang controversy. Hopefully.

Oh, one thing that makes me irritated is how many of these athletes live, work and go to school here in the USA, but represent other countries. What is up with that? I know we have great trainers and everything, but I think that''s ridiculous...
 

Brown.Eyed.Girl

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Anna0499

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Date: 8/22/2008 12:00:48 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Hahahaha at your ETA. It''s so pathetically true. For all we know, Australia''s team could have been made up of 6 year olds.

I think the main difference with to Romanians/Russians is that we''re just in a different age now. The internet changed things. Apparently some hacker found some stuff that was cached...I don''t know, it''s a whole lot of mess.

Whatever. I just hope they figure it out enough to give reasonable evidence one way or another, so this BS will END already. Because I''m getting sick of it.

So I''m going to watch Dalhausser and Rogers. Where there isn''t any dang controversy. Hopefully.

Oh, one thing that makes me irritated is how many of these athletes live, work and go to school here in the USA, but represent other countries. What is up with that? I know we have great trainers and everything, but I think that''s ridiculous...
I already posted this in the Family & Home thread, but according to this link the IOC has concluded that the documents presented by the girls'' families were satisfactory to prove their age. I kind of knew it would end like this; there is just no way to prove the girls are underage when they have several government documents that prove otherwise. Whether the documents were falsified...I guess we''ll never know for sure. However, without any concrete proof I would certainly hesitate to strip medals from any athlete who has worked hard her whole life to win it. Hopefully the IOC takes all of this drama as an indication that it needs to rethink it''s age requirement for gymnastics.

Haha Freke - I think we both agree we are sick of it! It wouldn''t be the Olympics without some scandal in gymnastics, right? Good thing beach volleyball was on the up & up; they were so great to watch!

Yeah, I don''t know how they determine which country they represent. I assume its based on their citizenship & those in the NBA/MLB/etc. can just act like they are here on work visas?
 

MoonWater

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I read some blurb that a hacker got into some system in China which has proof that at least one of the girls is only 14. So I''m sure this isn''t over.

Oh and of course I want to give props to Phelps!! Woo hoo!!!
 

allycat0303

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Freke:

There''s a lot of reasons represent other countries but go to school in the US.

The schools recruit them to represent them at NCAA championships (it''s good publicity for universities to be a powerhouse in sports). However, they were not necessarily born in the US. The universities want the BEST athletes regardless of where they come from.

Also, you have to be a citizen of the country to represent them. Some countries, you are not allowed to have dual citizenship, so the athlete prefers to keep their land of birth, rather then switch over.

In some cases, the althletes benefit from representing their own country (for example in the US, to make the olympic team in track would be harder then another country.). Therefore, lets say they are 20 years old, and not good enough to make the US olympic team, but are good enough to make their home country team.
 

LuckyTexan

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I was quite surprised that they still allowed China to host after their attempt at poisioning all of our children this past Christmas with lead paint.

I know, totally different subject, but how do you NOT KNOW that you are putting LEAD on something???

I don''t understand why they weren''t treated as international terrorists like OTHER countries that attack us!
 

ksinger

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Date: 8/23/2008 11:43:17 AM
Author: LuckyTexan
I was quite surprised that they still allowed China to host after their attempt at poisioning all of our children this past Christmas with lead paint.

I know, totally different subject, but how do you NOT KNOW that you are putting LEAD on something???

I don't understand why they weren't treated as international terrorists like OTHER countries that attack us!
Hmmm....maybe because characterizing lead in their toys as an "attempt at poisoning all our children" is rankest hyperbole and unfair even for a slam against China? I'm not defending it, but we did the same thing to our own populace years ago. It was the impetus for what eventually became the function of the FDA. They are where we were during the Industial Revolution. It's almost like a stage they're going through, although unlike us, who were not major exporters in a global economy, they're going to have to change attitudes and practices at a much peppier pace than we did. If it makes you feel any better, it's not like they're saving the un-leaded toys for their own kids. They poison themselves along with everyone else.

And rather than ask why they don't know that they're putting lead on the toys, why not ask why our regulatory bodies no longer perform their functions - like the one mentioned above - and keep such goods out of our country and our stores. The current administration's thumbing its nose at regulation and de-funding and severely understaffing regulatory agencies LIKE the FDA and the USDA - all in the interest of getting unreasonable regulation off the back of business mind you, PLUS the natural result of everyone working for companies like Wal-Mart, that effectively suppress wages, is that we need cheaper goods to keep those masses consuming. Can't afford to pay the wagest to make 'em here: regulation COSTS TOO MUCH, so we use the FREE MARKET that everyone seems to laud so much, and get those cheap goods from China, a country with even less regulation than our own, thus compounding the problem. It's the free market at work. WE had more than a bit to do with the creation of this situation. We're living in the unregulated Wal-Mart nation. Deal with it.

It could also be that they aren't international terrorists, and characterizing them as such is pretty silly and counterproductive. It's more like they have over 1 billion people, AND have bankrolled our little war now for so long that they pretty effectively own us. THEY are carrying the big and growing stick right now, not us. While we certainly don't want to roll over and play dead, a little less sabre-rattling and testoserone induced displays MIIIGHT be in order.

Really, I'm sorry, but that post was a bit inane. These things are never so simple, America GOOD GUY!! China EVIL BAD GUY!! Go beat up!!! , desperately though we might wish they were. You need to do some reading...about China, our economy and how it got to where it is now: tanking, and how our war is being funded. And you need to try and understand a few things, sooner rather than later would be well...that we are not what we were in the post-WWII era. We are in the process of being slapped back into being one of the countries of the world, not THE country of the world. The sooner we all understand and come to grips with that the quicker we're going to pull out of the hole we're quickly sliding into.
 

Anna0499

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Date: 8/23/2008 3:26:17 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 8/23/2008 11:43:17 AM
Author: LuckyTexan
I was quite surprised that they still allowed China to host after their attempt at poisioning all of our children this past Christmas with lead paint.

I know, totally different subject, but how do you NOT KNOW that you are putting LEAD on something???

I don''t understand why they weren''t treated as international terrorists like OTHER countries that attack us!
Hmmm....maybe because characterizing lead in their toys as an ''attempt at poisoning all our children'' is rankest hyperbole and unfair even for a slam against China? I''m not defending it, but we did the same thing to our own populace years ago. It was the impetus for what eventually became the function of the FDA. They are where we were during the Industial Revolution. It''s almost like a stage they''re going through, although unlike us, who were not major exporters in a global economy, they''re going to have to change attitudes and practices at a much peppier pace than we did. If it makes you feel any better, it''s not like they''re saving the un-leaded toys for their own kids. They poison themselves along with everyone else.

And rather than ask why they don''t know that they''re putting lead on the toys, why not ask why our regulatory bodies no longer perform their functions - like the one mentioned above - and keep such goods out of our country and our stores. The current administration''s thumbing its nose at regulation and de-funding and severely understaffing regulatory agencies LIKE the FDA and the USDA - all in the interest of getting unreasonable regulation off the back of business mind you, PLUS the natural result of everyone working for companies like Wal-Mart, that effectively suppress wages, is that we need cheaper goods to keep those masses consuming. Can''t afford to pay the wagest to make ''em here: regulation COSTS TOO MUCH, so we use the FREE MARKET that everyone seems to laud so much, and get those cheap goods from China, a country with even less regulation than our own, thus compounding the problem. It''s the free market at work. WE had more than a bit to do with the creation of this situation. We''re living in the unregulated Wal-Mart nation. Deal with it.

It could also be that they aren''t international terrorists, and characterizing them as such is pretty silly and counterproductive. It''s more like they have over 1 billion people, AND have bankrolled our little war now for so long that they pretty effectively own us. THEY are carrying the big and growing stick right now, not us. While we certainly don''t want to roll over and play dead, a little less sabre-rattling and testoserone induced displays MIIIGHT be in order.

Really, I''m sorry, but that post was a bit inane. These things are never so simple, America GOOD GUY!! China EVIL BAD GUY!! Go beat up!!! , desperately though we might wish they were. You need to do some reading...about China, our economy and how it got to where it is now: tanking, and how our war is being funded. And you need to try and understand a few things, sooner rather than later would be well...that we are not what we were in the post-WWII era. We are in the process of being slapped back into being one of the countries of the world, not THE country of the world. The sooner we all understand and come to grips with that the quicker we''re going to pull out of the hole we''re quickly sliding into.
36.gif
Thank you for this well-informed post. I just didn''t know how to react after reading that post...I was very much shocked & sad at the level of misinformation displayed.
 

FrekeChild

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Date: 8/23/2008 8:24:24 AM
Author: allycat0303
Freke:
There''s a lot of reasons represent other countries but go to school in the US.

The schools recruit them to represent them at NCAA championships (it''s good publicity for universities to be a powerhouse in sports). However, they were not necessarily born in the US. The universities want the BEST athletes regardless of where they come from.

Also, you have to be a citizen of the country to represent them. Some countries, you are not allowed to have dual citizenship, so the athlete prefers to keep their land of birth, rather then switch over.

In some cases, the althletes benefit from representing their own country (for example in the US, to make the olympic team in track would be harder then another country.). Therefore, lets say they are 20 years old, and not good enough to make the US olympic team, but are good enough to make their home country team.
From what I got from some of the stories shown, a lot of them aren''t students. I know the rest of it, my brother is a college basketball coach, so I know ALL about recruiting.
 

allycat0303

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Freke,

Not trying to be offensive, but I''m intrested to know what you find irritating about the athletes from other countries training in the US then? Is it because you don''t feel they should be using US resources? Or that you feel they should be representing the US? I used to train in the US, and didn''t realize that American citizens found that irritating, so it intrests me that it arises negative emotions. I generally thought that the US would be proud to be able to offer their expertise in training athletes. Similarly, I am Canadian, but was considering doing a fellow in the US after residency, even though I don''t plan to practice there. Is this something that is negatively viewed by the US public?
 

FrekeChild

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Date: 8/23/2008 5:08:50 PM
Author: allycat0303
Freke,

Not trying to be offensive, but I''m intrested to know what you find irritating about the athletes from other countries training in the US then? Is it because you don''t feel they should be using US resources? Or that you feel they should be representing the US? I used to train in the US, and didn''t realize that American citizens found that irritating, so it intrests me that it arises negative emotions. I generally thought that the US would be proud to be able to offer their expertise in training athletes. Similarly, I am Canadian, but was considering doing a fellow in the US after residency, even though I don''t plan to practice there. Is this something that is negatively viewed by the US public?
I just don''t get it is all. Yeah, we have great training resources and coaches, but are they really the best from their country if all of their training is coming from the US? I''ve been watching most of the Olympics, and it seems as though half of the athletes that medal, if they aren''t American, they were trained here. It''s kind of a blurring of the lines in the way I see it. I''m conflicted on it. People are allowed to live where they want to, and I think it''s perfectly reasonable to go where your talent can be honed to make you the best in the world. But then, who do you represent? Where you were born, but don''t live/train, or where you live/train and weren''t born?

It''s one giant gray line.

Work is a totally different thing. I realize that sports can be presumed to be working too, but going to get training somewhere else to take it back to your home country is a totally different situation IMHO. If I go back into baking, and I get the opportunity to go to France and learn under a French pastry chef, and then come back to bring what I''ve learned to the US--I''d jump on the chance. I have no problems with that what so ever. It''s a completely different situation. I think the more experiences you have, the bigger the variety of work situations, the better a doctor you''ll be.

Does that make more sense? I''m not POed about it or anything, I just don''t get it.
 

allycat0303

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Freke,

No it makes a lot of sense to me, I just never thought about it that way actually. In a sense, you''re saying you it''s not really the best of your country because you''re a product of the US, so representing a country becomes artificial.

I feel that all of the countries want to participate in the Olympics because it is a HUGE honor, yet they just don''t have the knowledge/coaches to do so, so by sending them to the US, they learn, come back to their country and hopefully are able to spread some of it in their country (or not, in some cases), so hopefully in the future they can develop their sport in their country. At least that is the hope. There is weightlifter that won a silver medal (the only medal) for Vietnam. He is the second olympic medal in the country''s history. He lives and trains in Vietnam and I was absurdly proud. Probably more so that someone that was born in Vietnam, spent 2 years there, and then moved to the US and has never been back, but just *represents* the country. For me it shows that the country is starting to make some in roads in sports.

Thanks for not taking offense (and answering my question)!
 

FrekeChild

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Date: 8/23/2008 6:38:25 PM
Author: allycat0303
Freke,

No it makes a lot of sense to me, I just never thought about it that way actually. In a sense, you''re saying you it''s not really the best of your country because you''re a product of the US, so representing a country becomes artificial.

I feel that all of the countries want to participate in the Olympics because it is a HUGE honor, yet they just don''t have the knowledge/coaches to do so, so by sending them to the US, they learn, come back to their country and hopefully are able to spread some of it in their country (or not, in some cases), so hopefully in the future they can develop their sport in their country. At least that is the hope. There is weightlifter that won a silver medal (the only medal) for Vietnam. He is the second olympic medal in the country''s history. He lives and trains in Vietnam and I was absurdly proud. Probably more so that someone that was born in Vietnam, spent 2 years there, and then moved to the US and has never been back, but just *represents* the country. For me it shows that the country is starting to make some in roads in sports.

Thanks for not taking offense (and answering my question)!
You said it much better than I did!

That is VERY cool about the Vietnamese weightlifter--and that''s exactly what I''m talking about. I''ve never really heard of an "American" athlete going somewhere else to train (I could of, but don''t remember) but I think that a if they had and they won something--I think the medal wouldn''t be as special. Not that it wouldn''t be an amazing win, but that it just wouldn''t be AS great. You know? Like I think that Martha and Bela Karolyi are amazing, but I wonder if the Romanian''s think that since they are such great coaches, why don''t they come back to their home country instead of coaching the American team?

I really think it''s fantastic about the weightlifter. I can imagine the town where he lives was just bursting at the seams with pride--people he grew up with exclaiming "I know that guy!". And with someone who was born in another country, and trained in the US....people saying, "Apparently he was born here in town." It''s just...different.

I was absolutely THRILLED when Joe Hagerty was on the Men''s Gymnastics team. He was born and bred here in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And, he''s exactly 3 days older than I am. I was so proud watching him and knowing that he was from here. No other athletes affected me that way. And New Mexico isn''t really known for sports except mixed martial arts and some boxing dude and that made it that much more special. So I think I know how you felt about the weightlifter.

And you''re welcome for answering it--and making me think about it. Because until writing it out, it was only a gut reaction thing. So thank you.
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FrekeChild

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Dude. Watching NBC and they are saying that there is the possibility that 5 of 6 Chinese gymnasts could be under age.

23.gif


The prez of the IOC just said that if this is proven they will revoke their gold medals. He''s saying that the age limit is for their protection, both physically, mentally and emotionally...They brought up the 14 year old diver from England-which IOC prez didn''t have a problem with.

Now they are talking about doping.

Ok...it''s over now...

Dude.
 

Anna0499

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Date: 8/24/2008 12:53:12 AM
Author: FrekeChild
Dude. Watching NBC and they are saying that there is the possibility that 5 of 6 Chinese gymnasts could be under age.

23.gif


The prez of the IOC just said that if this is proven they will revoke their gold medals. He''s saying that the age limit is for their protection, both physically, mentally and emotionally...They brought up the 14 year old diver from England-which IOC prez didn''t have a problem with.

Now they are talking about doping.

Ok...it''s over now...

Dude.
Yeah, apparently IDs, old & new passports, birth certificates, & family residence permits are insufficient...I just don''t see a resolution coming out of this investigation that will please all parties. The media has already condemned these girls & no matter what documents they produce people won''t believe them. Very sad. I guess the IOC has requested school entries & family books & at first glance everything looks alright. I know the government can falsify anything they want, but how would you prove it if someone doesn''t come right out & admit to it? If any governing body was forced to make a determination between an Internet site vs. a pile of documents to see which one is more believable I don''t think you can fault them for not going with the Internet sites without further proof. From the article I read the discrepancies have apparently been found to be in the paperwork when they transferred He Kexin from the local team to the national team. Who knows if this is true...but who knows if it isn''t? That''s the problem in this situation...no one knows.
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FrekeChild

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So it appears that they Chinese Gymnastics controversy is still going on...And they''ve added the 2000 Chinese team that won Bronze in Sydney as well.

Link
 

Anna0499

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Ehhh...I say if they want to go back EIGHT years then they might as well strip the medals of those European gymnasts who have admitted being underage as well. Just be consistent.
 

diamondfan

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Now there are issues with baby formula and many kids have been sickened and died. And supposedly the country''s food inspectors knew this in DECEMBER but wanted to keep it quiet til the Olympics ended.

Just a digrace.
 

Dancing Fire

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Date: 9/25/2008 12:26:21 AM
Author: diamondfan
Now there are issues with baby formula and many kids have been sickened and died. And supposedly the country's food inspectors knew this in DECEMBER but wanted to keep it quiet til the Olympics ended.

Just a digrace.
these people don't care how many babies die as long as they make a buck,human lives means nothing to them. this is not the first time they had problem with baby formula.about 8 yrs ago there were formulas that cause the baby's head to grown to ENORMOUS size. you can get away with any crime if you had the $$$. the country is so CORRUPTED !!
 

Anna0499

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Date: 9/25/2008 12:26:21 AM
Author: diamondfan
Now there are issues with baby formula and many kids have been sickened and died. And supposedly the country''s food inspectors knew this in DECEMBER but wanted to keep it quiet til the Olympics ended.

Just a digrace.
Yeah, that is completely outrageous.
29.gif
I couldn''t imagine something like that happening here, in that magnitude and with that severity. Things like that make me feel so fortunate to live in America, even in these unstable times.
 
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