Just a Thought on Hurricane Katrina

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I am shocked and horrified at the article Matadora posted, and even more appalled anyone would applaud its sentiments.

What I got from it was that "normal people" behave better in a crisis than poor people, supposedly because the "poor people" are burdoned with a "welfare mentality". What absolute bullsh**!!! Does anyone remember the selfless heroics of the "poor people" when they rushed to help victims of freeway collapse after the Loma Prieta earthquake in California?

Katrina was a natural disaster. Our government's initial response to it was a man-made one.

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[movie zombie]

deb, re your heart: its your brain that''s in the right place and fully engaged. i find it interesting that the victims should have been more organized, someone should have been in charge, rules should have been set, etc. but when we make the same comments re this administration''s lack of preparedness and inability to engage during the aftermath [again, why was george in san diego on day 2?!] , we''re being negative....

my response to the article posted by matatora isn''t fit for print and would include a reference to hitler, overt racism and classism.

yep, i''ve had my fill, the check is paid, and i''m already down the road.

peace, movie zombie

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/4/2005 8:08:42 PM
Author: thebanjodog
well if you and others trapped there selected a spot to deposit trash it would not be in the sinkbowls as was shown on tv. if you or others set up an area outside for persons to relieve themselves the inside would not have toilets overflown with human waste. if all dead bodies were moved to one area they would not be sitting on street sides for journalists to film as abandoned souls. if some persons set up some rules maybe we would not have heard of rapes and beatings.

Actually, I do not think if I had been in the Superdome that I would have tried to set up rules for waste disposal or the disposal of human bodies. I suspect that I would have tried to protect my child, to keep her from getting wet when the roof opened up, from being traumatized by fear. I might have tried to find her water or food by trading what I had with others. I would have gotten to know my neighbors in the "shelter". And I suspect that they would have been doing the same thing I was doing. I am guessing I would behave this way because of how I behaved in a situation that might be considered Katrina in microcosm. When my daughter had strep throat a few months ago and we had to wait for five hours for medical attention at a walk-in clinic on a Sunday, this is the way I and others behaved. I shared my children''s Tylenol with another mother. We sat on the floor with our extremely sick children. I didn''t lead a storm on the Bastille to reorganize the clinic and make it more efficient. I tried to be a good neighbor and to take care of my child.

Deborah

 

[Neophyte Miner]

Well put, Movie Zombie. A real leader does not wait for the shell-shocked political representatives of his constituency to officially request assistance through the approved channels. He asks: "What''s the situation with this rapidly escalating hurricane? What are we doing about it? What else do we need to do to save lives?" But no.

"Those people" are not his base, maybe they have never even voted. How relevant are they, seriously? I mean, beyond providing babies that grow up to be soldiers, what else are they good for?

I''ll tell you what they are. They are, were, AMERICANS, the very people that Bush constantly claims to serve. But when the truth emerges that he cut funding to FEMA, which was therefore incapable of even turning on the TV news to find out where the NOLA Convention Center was located - suddenly it''s all about BLAMING IT ON THE PEOPLE WHO NEVER EVEN DREAMED OF HAVING THE MEANS TO GET OUT OF NOLA.

Talk about terrorism - let''s not forget the elderly - not poor, not necessarily even African-American, just old, infirm, and powerless - that drowned on Friday after waiting in growing horror for the rescue that never came. They had phone contact, people begging on their behalf. But no. The photo ops were more important. (Didn''t Laura''s hair look great, though?)

This administration is about one thing: money. The trumped up war to bring "democracy" to Iraq was about oil/money. The price gouging going on now is putting money in the pockets of everyone that does represent the base for Bush. And those people who continue even today to blather about the well-meaning intentions of this imposter are responsible, and will go down in history as enabling his dangerous lack of vision. They better hope the next disaster doesn''t strike their state, or their Mom''s nursing home - unless they are part of the "base" - not only will they be SOL - it''ll be their fault.

It is about LEADERSHIP. Do you really WANT to go where W is taking the country, the world, humanity? For now, we still have a choice.

 

[perry]

I thougth the article stated a very important truth. It was not specifically about the specific people in New Orleans - It was not "Blaming The Victums"

It was - and what I got out of it - was blaming the society - the social program - that created so many of those people who could not muster the resources to get out.

I saw the report where the reporter found the civic center. It was stated that those people could easily get on the elvated highways where people were being rescued from. Yet, the fact is that they just sat their. It was amazing that on Thursday there was a room full of cases of juice (unlocked - and in full view). No one had previously looked. The reporter found and helped one person who finally decided to look. Yet thousands of people just sat their waiting for someone to bring them something. You can call it what you want - It sure left a quesy feeling in my gut.

How is it that people become so dependent on other people that they do not have the ability in the face of thirst and hunger to look through the rooms in the building they are in? It is because they have been taught that someone else will always take care of them.

Is that the lesson we want to be teaching, or should we be teaching that you need to take some level of responsibility for yourself.

The article pointed out that many of our social programs create dependence - needlessly; and many of the unsettling behaviours that we have seen was the results of that. This does not mean that many of the people aren''t great people - who did what they were taught to do. It''s just - shouldn''t we be teaching something else.

I agree with that message of the article - which is why I thought it was so good.

To me that is one of the "cultural" issues that led to this tradegady on this scale. Similar to the "cultural" issue of allowing cities and other development in harms way, and trusting that the levees would never fail - in the face of many studies that said they could. These are general Cultural issues completely independent of the people caught in the current situation. Should any of those cultural issues not been there - the number of affected people would have been much less. Should all of those cultural issues have not been there: New Orleans problaby would only have been a city of about 20,000 to start with, and there would have been no levees to contain flood water in.

Perry

 

[phoenixgirl]

Like the BBC article, I think Matadora''s article is simplistic. It reminds me of the analyses in Freakonomics that were never fully explained. It''s easy to say that our welfare system is to blame without considering why we have such a system and what our society would be like without it. We can''t just send all the indigent or unmotivated to Australia.

But I do think it is a valid question to ask why there are people raping, murdering, and shooting at rescue and medical personnel. 5 or 6 men of a group of 8 or more were just killed after they tried to ambush a group of contractors coming to work on their city. Why, why, why? We assume that even when people have different values (that article called them people without values, but that is really judgmental, everyone values something) they will act in self-interest.

I''m not going to say too much that I wouldn''t say in polite company, but I will say that my view of racial issues has changed since I moved from an affluent, northern suburb to a city in the south. I''ve taught the urban poor, and my perspective has become less naive, and I feel more helpless now that I know that there is no easy solution. I''ve seen some awful video in our gang awareness training of random murders and rapes (sorry, "sex-ins" to the gang) taped by the perpetrators themselves and video games which make them seem like fun (not that these are necessarily specific to race). If it''s racist or unpatriotic or Hitler-like to point out that some people are murdering and raping and biting the hand that feeds them, we''re never ever going to get to the bottom of our problems. You don''t have to attribute it to their race or class or upbringing to admit the reality of what is going on. Even if we do say that it may have to do with some or all of those characteristics, we are still not saying that these people are inferior or those people are at fault. We are just trying to face reality head on.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/4/2005 10:48:05 PM
Author: perry
It was - and what I got out of it - was blaming the society - the social program - that created so many of those people who could not muster the resources to get out.

Whoa! You are jumping the gun! There are a few logical flaws in your reasoning. First, where is the evidence that the people in the Superdome coped less well than other people similarly traumatized would have coped? Second, where is the evidence that the people in the Superdome had ever been beneficiaries of social programs other than those enjoyed by all other Americans (e.g. programs of "the welfare state")? Third, even if the people in the Superdome had been beneficiaries of programs other Americans had not been ("welfare" programs), how can a causal relationship between having received benefits of a "welfare" program and helplessness be determined?


Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/4/2005 11:00:16 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
It's easy to say that our welfare system is to blame without considering why we have such a system and what our society would be like without it.

Actually, we don't have a "welfare system". Not by a long shot! What welfare there once was (and it was woefully inadequate) is long gone. Clinton did away with it. My Republican neighbors think it is the only thing he did right.

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/4/2005 11:00:16 PM
Author: phoenixgirl
I''m not going to say too much that I wouldn''t say in polite company, but I will say that my view of racial issues has changed since I moved from an affluent, northern suburb to a city in the south. I''ve taught the urban poor, and my perspective has become less naive, and I feel more helpless now that I know that there is no easy solution. I''ve seen some awful video in our gang awareness training of random murders and rapes (sorry, ''sex-ins'' to the gang) taped by the perpetrators themselves and video games which make them seem like fun (not that these are necessarily specific to race). If it''s racist or unpatriotic or Hitler-like to point out that some people are murdering and raping and biting the hand that feeds them, we''re never ever going to get to the bottom of our problems. You don''t have to attribute it to their race or class or upbringing to admit the reality of what is going on. Even if we do say that it may have to do with some or all of those characteristics, we are still not saying that these people are inferior or those people are at fault. We are just trying to face reality head on.

I think you are saying that New Orleans is a primarily black city; that primarily the poor (who are primarily black) got left behind when the wealthier people escaped; and that some black, anti-social men did some despicable things when not constrained by the rule of law.

I must point out that although there were shocking crimes, that only a few people carried them out and that all cities have some people who are sociopaths, lacking in empathy.

Deborah

 

[saturn]

Yesterday, I served a 20-hour shift helping process hurricane victims who were arriving at the Air Force Base in Atlanta.
Meeting them was completely heartbreaking. Many were veterans who risked their lives for this country; yet in this disaster waited almost a week before being rescued from the nursing home. One woman told me about how she stayed behind with her incapacitated mother, at a hospital with no power and no food, after being turned away at the Superdome. We saw a nurse who had been bagging a patient of hers by hand for over 40 hours. A family I met had traveled all the way across New Orleans on foot, with a teenage child on crutches, looking for help.

So all of this "the victims are just lazy" crap is really making me angry. In every society there are a few bad apples. The media really likes to sensationalize the behavior of these few individuals, so that''s much of what we see on TV. The majority of evacuees I met were so exhausted that they needed assistance just to walk 50 feet. They hadn''t slept in days.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for anything you have given or will give to the relief effort. Most of these victims walked off of the plane with all their earthly belongings in one ziplock bag. For many, this was their first time setting foot outside of New Orleans. As they begin the task of rebuilding their lives, they need all the help they can get.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 9/5/2005 10:37:25 AM
Author: saturn
Yesterday, I served a 20-hour shift helping process hurricane victims who were arriving at the Air Force Base in Atlanta.
Meeting them was completely heartbreaking. Many were veterans who risked their lives for this country; yet in this disaster waited almost a week before being rescued from the nursing home. One woman told me about how she stayed behind with her incapacitated mother, at a hospital with no power and no food, after being turned away at the Superdome. We saw a nurse who had been bagging a patient of hers by hand for over 40 hours. A family I met had traveled all the way across New Orleans on foot, with a teenage child on crutches, looking for help.

So all of this ''the victims are just lazy'' crap is really making me angry. In every society there are a few bad apples. The media really likes to sensationalize the behavior of these few individuals, so that''s much of what we see on TV. The majority of evacuees I met were so exhausted that they needed assistance just to walk 50 feet. They hadn''t slept in days.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for anything you have given or will give to the relief effort. Most of these victims walked off of the plane with all their earthly belongings in one ziplock bag. For many, this was their first time setting foot outside of New Orleans. As they begin the task of rebuilding their lives, they need all the help they can get.

Thank you for being part of the solution.

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 9/5/2005 10:37:25 AM
Author: saturn
Yesterday, I served a 20-hour shift helping process hurricane victims who were arriving at the Air Force Base in Atlanta.
Meeting them was completely heartbreaking. Many were veterans who risked their lives for this country; yet in this disaster waited almost a week before being rescued from the nursing home. One woman told me about how she stayed behind with her incapacitated mother, at a hospital with no power and no food, after being turned away at the Superdome. We saw a nurse who had been bagging a patient of hers by hand for over 40 hours. A family I met had traveled all the way across New Orleans on foot, with a teenage child on crutches, looking for help.

So all of this ''the victims are just lazy'' crap is really making me angry. In every society there are a few bad apples. The media really likes to sensationalize the behavior of these few individuals, so that''s much of what we see on TV. The majority of evacuees I met were so exhausted that they needed assistance just to walk 50 feet. They hadn''t slept in days.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for anything you have given or will give to the relief effort. Most of these victims walked off of the plane with all their earthly belongings in one ziplock bag. For many, this was their first time setting foot outside of New Orleans. As they begin the task of rebuilding their lives, they need all the help they can get.

Extremely humbling. Thank you for sharing. Other than monetary donations, do you have any sense of the need for clothes, other items, or volunteers? Specifically, short-term volunteers during the next few weeks? Or is the best way for people to help is to send more monetray contributions?

Thanks.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 9/4/2005 12:12:51 PM
Author: Matatora
I got the following in an email and I thought it would be of intreast to the people on this thread:

An Unnatural Disaster: A Hurricane Exposes the Man-Made Disaster of the Welfare State by Robert Tracinski Sep 02, 2005 by Robert Tracinski It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a Washington Times story:

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

But what about criminals and welfare parasites?

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

Source: TIA Daily -- September 2, 2005

It is rare that I see such utter poppycock packed so tightly on the printed page.

Whenever I read such things, I consider the source. Not being familiar with Mr. Tracinski (but with the mention of the Rev. Moon-owned Washington Times and Fox News setting off alarms) I googled him for further selections of his brilliance. Not surprisingly, we find Neo-Con BS masquerading as commentary. Here's a selection:

The Scientist Trap

What is important in reading such drivel as the article quoted above is to ask yourself what is not being said. The author rails against "welfare parasites," but where in his writings do we find similar anger directed against a President who continued to read My Pet Goat while the nation was attacked on 9/11 and then went golfing while New Orleans drowned? Where is his anger for Condi Rice, who, while other nations were developing relief plans for the oil shortage in the US, attended the theater and went shopping for shoes?

And, of course, where is his outrage for the scandalous "corporate welfare" state, where workers get sacked while CEO's salaries and compensation skyrocket. For example:

2004 was a banner year for CEOs and a dismal year for workers, according to a new report from the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy.

The ratio of average CEO pay (now $11.8 million) to worker pay (now $27,460) spiked up from 301-to-1 in 2003 to 431-to-1 in 2004.

If the minimum wage had risen as fast as CEO pay since 1990, the lowest paid workers in the US would be earning $23.03 an hour today, not $5.15 an hour.

The report found that CEOs are individually profiting from the Iraq War, with huge average raises at the biggest defense contractors.

At the 34 publicly traded US corporations among the 2004 top 100 defense contractors with 10% or more of their revenues from defense contracts – companies such as United Technologies, Textron, and General Dynamics – average CEO pay increased 200% from 2001 to 2004, versus 7% for all CEOs.

See the link below for the full shocking story.

Executive Excess 2005: Defense Contractors Get More Bucks for the Bang

Where is the responsibility? Who's heads have rolled from the 9/11 disaster? The Iraq disaster? The New Orleans disaster? The answer is clear: in BushCo., if you follow like a drone, you get promoted, no matter what your mistakes. And if you have the temerity to call him on his BS, you're quickly pushed aside (as LA's governor learned just this morning).

We can, however, take solace. There is rougly a third of this country that will support Bush no matter what his crimes. No hope for these folks, no point in discussion with them. But Bush's popularity is now lower than even Nixon at the height of Watergate. The rest have already made up their minds and what just happened in New Orleans is only the latest sorry manifestation of what has been on display for five years now: utter incompetence combined with naked greed. Sadly, for both our nation and the rest of the world, that is one deadly cocktail.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 12:56:28 PM
Author: Richard Hughes
Where is the responsibility? Who's heads have rolled from the 9/11 disaster? The Iraq disaster? The New Orleans disaster? The answer is clear: in BushCo., if you follow like a drone, you get promoted, no matter what your mistakes. And if you have the temerity to call him on his BS, you're quickly pushed aside (as LA's governor learned just this morning).

As I read your posting, Richard, I couldn't help but think of yet another example of this phenomenon: laud Bush and you get rewarded; expose Bush and you get axed.

Army Contract Official Critical of Halliburton Pact Is Demoted

Here are some excerpts:

"A top Army contracting official who criticized a large, noncompetitive contract with the Halliburton Company for work in Iraq was demoted Saturday for what the Army called poor job performance.
...
Ms. Greenhouse's lawyer, Michael Kohn, called the action an 'obvious reprisal' for the strong objections she raised in 2003 to a series of corps decisions involving the Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root, which has garnered more than $10 billion for work in Iraq.

Dick Cheney led Halliburton, which is based in Texas, before he became vice president.

'She is being demoted because of her strict adherence to procurement requirements and the Army's preference to sidestep them when it suits their needs,' Mr. Kohn said Sunday in an interview.
...
Known as a stickler for the rules on competition, Ms. Greenhouse initially received stellar performance ratings, Mr. Kohn said. But her reviews became negative at roughly the time she began objecting to decisions she saw as improperly favoring Kellogg Brown & Root, he said.
...
Ms. Greenhouse had also fought the granting of a waiver to Kellogg Brown & Root in December 2003, approving the high prices it had paid for fuel imports for Iraq, and had objected to extending its five-year contract for logistical support in the Balkans for 11 months and $165 million without competitive bidding. In late June, ignoring warnings from her superiors, Ms. Greenhouse appeared before a Congressional panel, calling the Kellogg Brown & Root oil contract 'the most blatant and improper contract abuse I have witnessed during the course of my professional career.' She also said the defense secretary's office had improperly interfered in the awarding of the contract."


Deborah

 

[Neophyte Miner]

Posted: 9/5/2005 12:56:28 PM by Richard Hughes:



We can, however, take solace. There is rougly a third of this country that will support Bush no matter what his crimes. No hope for these folks, no point in discussion with them. But Bush''s popularity is now lower than even Nixon at the height of Watergate. The rest have already made up their minds and what just happened in New Orleans is only the latest sorry manifestation of what has been on display for five years now: utter incompetence combined with naked greed. Sadly, for both our nation and the rest of the world, that is one deadly cocktail.[/quote]


__________________________________________________________________

I often wonder: who or what did that one-third of the U.S. population follow *before* Bush?

- Neophyte Miner

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 1:22:43 PM
Author: Neophyte Miner
I often wonder: who or what did that one-third of the U.S. population follow *before* Bush?

When my grandmother was in her 90s she was given a mental status exam. One of the questions was, "Do you know who is President?". She couldn''t immediately remember his name, but said, "that actor".

That''s the answer.

Deb

 

[perry]

AGBF ( Deborah)

Date: 9/4/2005 10:48:05 PM
Author: perry
It was - and what I got out of it - was blaming the society - the social program - that created so many of those people who could not muster the resources to get out.

Whoa! You are jumping the gun! There are a few logical flaws in your reasoning. First, where is the evidence that the people in the Superdome coped less well than other people similarly traumatized would have coped? Second, where is the evidence that the people in the Superdome had ever been beneficiaries of social programs other than those enjoyed by all other Americans (e.g. programs of "the welfare state")? Third, even if the people in the Superdome had been beneficiaries of programs other Americans had not been ("welfare" programs), how can a causal relationship between having received benefits of a "welfare" program and helplessness be determined?
Deborah, and a few others:

Concerning this subject perhaps the best that can be said is that we respectfully disagree. But I will try to explain.

Numerous sources claim that the reason many of the people did not leave New Orleans is becuase they did not have the resources. That is a general social issue. A social program can effect changes on people who did not directly participate. Why is it that New Orleans has reportedly abouit twice as many people below the poverty line than other similar cities?

My background: I came from a poor family (8 kids) that was on welfare a lot. Before food stamps there was goverment "surplus" food. I''m not going to say I have fond memories of dried eggs, rice, kindney beans, canned pork, ect. But it did keep us fed.

Now I have pulled myself out of that, but not all of my family did so. Biggest change needed was my attitude. I had to take responsibility for myself and not accept just getting by. I had to not accept low paying jobs and change myself so I qualified for high paying jobs.

Huge thing against me: I was born with a birth defect, smallest kid in class, family on the "wrong" side of the fence. Thus I was called names by most, and had to be twice as good as anyone else to be considered equal. I was blammed for all kinds of things. Classic discrimination. Did I have a chip on my sholder; yes.

I believe that there is pleanty of room at the top if people will help each other up. What I see far too often is people who pull each other down - becasue they don''t want someone esle showing them up.

While I have worked low paying jobs at times (sometimes even when the job would not even pay my rent) it was my belief that it was better to work at something than accept general welfare. And I pressed on.

With my health issues it would have been very easy to get on and stay on welfare. Instead I went many thousands of dollars into debt looking for the real issue and how to resolve the problem. I''m still paying that off (and still stuggling with some of those health issues).

Bottom line: people who succeed in life - people who make decent wages tend to have a differerent attitude and talk different than people who don''t.

I''ve spent a lot of time watching TV this past week becasue I was home ill. While there was some elderly, and some infirm - by and large I saw lots of very healthy people involved with the New Orleans situation. By and large I heard a lot of what I call "poverty talk" I''ve lived it, and broke out of it - and don''t tell me I don''t know it.

Why, in general, do so many healthy people not have the resources necessary to escape a city with 48 hours notice. To me it is a general social issue. These people have been taught by society that it is OK for them to be where they are. Thus, they do not do what is necessary to do a lot better. I assure you from my personal experience that the change is not easy - and people need other people to support them during the change. To me, the lack of sociall support encouraging these people on to higher and higher paying jobs is the social problem. The fact that those jobs may not exist in New Orleans is irrelevent. I have moved something like 15 times following jobs.

A question I ask almost every time I travel; Why are their americans in every city on welfare - and the hotel maids and staff are almost always foreign nationals. To me that is a social problem. Why don''t the people on welfare take these local jobs. Why can''t they live on them (don''t tell me you have to have individual housing; man have I lived with some "turds" in shared appartments." I have worked some really crummy jobs; and yes, some of them I did not get paid on and had to move on. Yet, it was my willingness to work those crummy jobs, learn something from them or the situation, that got me a better jobs later, and a better job later, and finally a job I can live decently on now.

I have to disgree with you: The US welfare system is alive and well. I know too many people on it. By and large, I think it traps them from their true potentials. To me that is a huge social issue.

I thought the article spoke a great truth. Many of you didn''t see it. Many will call it simplistic (and you may be right in some ways). Me. I''ve lived both sides of the fence. I call what I saw as the core message as: real.


Finally, for those who had the resources and chose to stay. You''re choice is OK with me. Just don''t complain about how long it took to rescue you.

Perry

 

[thebanjodog]

perry, congratulations on achieving what you set as a goal in your life. it takes a lot of courage to expose your personal hardships and struggles. good luck in your future and thanks for offering to help someone else in a similiar position by offering your home to the storm survivors. banjo

 

[rubydick]

Perry,

There are a number of good explanations for what you describe beyond simply having no desire to get a job. Here''s a half-dozen or so to ponder:

Is the color of your skin the same as the majority in this country, or is it different? That can have a dramatic effect on your ability to find work, even if you did grow up poor.

To find evidence of institutional racism in this country, one need only examine the sentencing differnces between crack cocaine (often used by blacks) and powder.

According to one story I heard, someone asked for an advance on their paycheck to help them get out of town (it was the end of the month). They were told "no." They were also told that if they were not back on the job when the company reopened, they would be out of a job.

Every rental car was rented, every bus and train was full by early Sunday morning. Planes were all cancelled. If you don''t own a car, what do you do, walk? One tourist I heard on the radio said that if he didn''t have the $200 for a cab out, he would still be there. He was on vacation, he was not some kind of lazy out-of-work bum.

The reason you meet foreigners as maids is because these people are immigrants; by definition they represent a slice of humanity that wants something better and is willing to work their asses off (and often break the immigration laws) to get it. To compare them to the descendents of those forcefully brought to this country is ridiculous.

And who did that third vote for before Dubya? They voted for his father. Who was married to a woman who said on ABC''s "Good Morning America" on March 18, 2003: "Why should we hear about body bags and deaths. Oh, I mean, it''s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

No, Mr. Tracinski''s article is not a good one. It''s simply more of the "smoke-and-mirrors" BushCo. crack the world is forced to smoke daily.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 4:33:26 PM
Author: perry
I have to disgree with you: The US welfare system is alive and well. I know too many people on it.

Perry,

You have used anecdotal evidence about your own life (rising out of poverty) and people you know (some of your family who did not work to rise out of poverty) to justify sweeping and unfounded statements about people you do not know (the people left in New Orleans). That is unscientific and, therefore, misleading.

Also: I would like to know what welfare program still exists that has allowed anyone you know to continue to receive help from it for more than a few weeks. The few programs that exist are only for select groups (like the permanently and totally disabled). Even AFDC (Aid to Families with Dependent Children) was changed to have a very short time limit. (It used to give $444.00 per month to a family of four-i.e. a mother and three children-for all their needs-in an area where the minimum cost of an apartment alone was $600 per month.) Please tell me to what program(s) you are referring when you mention "welfare" and the circumstances of the person or people you know who receive benefits from them.

 

[saturn]

Jennifer -

I think that it depends a great deal on where you live and what your occupation is. I was called in to work because I am in the public health field. Since the site was on an Air Force Base, they weren''t asking for volunteers from the general public.
They primarily needed doctors and nurses, mental health professionals and social workers.

I have heard that the Salvation Army here in Atlanta is asking for volunteers to staff the shelters they are establishing.
The clothing donations were greatly appreciated, especially the brand-new socks, underwear and shoes. We also went through a lot of Purell, but I don''t know if that would be as useful once the victims are placed into housing. Prepaid phone cards are also a great item. Although we were able to provide our personal cell phones for some victims to contact their families, they will certainly be needing to make a lot more calls.

If you live in an area where evacuees are being sent, then I would contact the Salvation Army or Red Cross to see if they can use volunteers at a shelter. I''ve also heard that the blood supply in the Southeast is running low; so if you can, please donate.
Of course, monetary donations are always a great help.

Again, thanks for your generosity to this cause. It was truly humbling to meet these victims and they were very greatful for anything that they were given. Many tears of relief were shed when they finally realized that they were safe.

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 9/5/2005 7:40:23 PM
Author: saturn
Jennifer -

I think that it depends a great deal on where you live and what your occupation is. I was called in to work because I am in the public health field. Since the site was on an Air Force Base, they weren''t asking for volunteers from the general public.
They primarily needed doctors and nurses, mental health professionals and social workers.

I have heard that the Salvation Army here in Atlanta is asking for volunteers to staff the shelters they are establishing.
The clothing donations were greatly appreciated, especially the brand-new socks, underwear and shoes. We also went through a lot of Purell, but I don''t know if that would be as useful once the victims are placed into housing. Prepaid phone cards are also a great item. Although we were able to provide our personal cell phones for some victims to contact their families, they will certainly be needing to make a lot more calls.

If you live in an area where evacuees are being sent, then I would contact the Salvation Army or Red Cross to see if they can use volunteers at a shelter. I''ve also heard that the blood supply in the Southeast is running low; so if you can, please donate.
Of course, monetary donations are always a great help.

Again, thanks for your generosity to this cause. It was truly humbling to meet these victims and they were very greatful for anything that they were given. Many tears of relief were shed when they finally realized that they were safe.

Thank you, Saturn.

 

[AGBF]

This article tells the story of two families from New Orleans and how they fared during and after Hurricane Katrina. If you read it, I think you will agree that although both families suffered, the one with the money was able to make better "luck" for itself.

In Tale of Two Families, a Chasm Between Haves and Have-Nots

Deborah

 

[phoenixgirl]

Perry,

Thanks for sharing that great post and testament to your spirit. I am in awe!

If you got the "simplistic" bent from me, I didn''t me re: the welfare article (I was really just trying to kowtow to the opposing side so as not to get flamed!). I do think that among the healthy who stayed, there are those who are their own worst enemies. Not all, of course, but I agree that it is much better to die trying than to give up and say, oh well, it''s impossible, I just won''t try.

 

[Neophyte Miner]

Posted: 9/5/2005 1:33:09 PM by Deb:
When my grandmother was in her 90s she was given a mental status exam. One of the questions was, "Do you know who is President?". She couldn''t immediately remember his name, but said, "that actor".

That''s the answer.

And,

Posted: 9/5/2005 6:55:24 PM by Richard Hughes:

And who did that third vote for before Dubya? They voted for his father. Who was married to a woman who said on ABC''s "Good Morning America" on March 18, 2003: "Why should we hear about body bags and deaths. Oh, I mean, it''s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"


____________________________________________________________________

Sorry - Evidently I didn''t make myself very clear herewhen I asked the question. I think it is obvious who the people who are faithful to Bush, regardless of what he does, voted for prior to the current administration. What I meant was, who told them what to do, who or what did they follow in the interim, i.e. the Clinton years?

I ask this in all sincerity. The contact I have had with people who support Bush blindly is limited, but it appears to me that they all feel a need to FOLLOW. They all seem to spout the same rhetoric, and with a vengeance that is so surprising, considering that most of them live comparatively comfortable lives.

There is no real emotion, other than rage, that seems constant. But the feelings that are expressed all seem to be one version or another of the following: "those damn liberals want everything handed to them." Which to me is so puzzling, because the liberals are statiscally proven to be the working class, while the people who inherit their wealth and/or live a life of leisure are typically not liberals, but usually vote Republican.

So what was the party line of this ilk prior to Dubya, the macho leader of indignation? Somehow I think it is important to know.

 

[perry]

Thanks Banjo...

AGBF (Deborah) & Richard

Wisconsin's welfare program starts with 2 years coverage, and can be extended beyond that for certain issues. Yes, they want you looking for work; but.... In some cases they have job training and job placement programs (that truthfully have not been that effective).

Wisconsin also has a "Job Training Program" for anyone layed off from a large employer who goes out of business. Interestingly, if you work for a small employer that goes out of business - you cannot get this benefit (So, 5 years ago I was not elegible because I worked for a small firm when it closed).

There is a person within a block of here that I know personally. Laid off from a major factory closing I'm thinking 3 years ago. Middle aged, zero computer skills - decides that he will take the "re-education benefit" which includes monthly living expense payments and tuition/books and enrolls in computer programming class. The man will never be hired as a computer programmer - it is obvious from the start.

The factory is purchased and reopened, and this person is offered his job back with the new firm at a wage that is actually higher than what the union concession was going to be. He turns it down - because afteral he is now being paid to be in school and there are lots of computer programming jobs out there.

Several years later he finishes all the classes he can take. But, he can't find a job in computer programming (and never will - he is slow - very slow). Thus ends the educational program.

Now another program kicks in to support him since he cannot find a job getting out of school (not sure which one). Suddenly, he starts to develop medical problems. Mainly the kind that no medical test can really find. Now he is eligible for medical benifits.

I talked to him within the last 2 weeks - and you should hear about his medical issues. They will be qualifiying him for medicall disability soon which will allow him to collect Wisconsin welfare for life...

During this time the factory has been booming - and he has actually had several "informal" offers to come back to work.

There are other cases like him arround. He is just the one I know personally.

Just between you and me: My medicall issues are much more apparent to any Dr who checks me out (and probably to any of you if you would look and listen). He seems to have no problem doing all kinds of things.

Now he is middle age caucasion; and in my opinion milking the system for all he can get.

Concerning the guy who was told no advance on his paycheck and that his job was over if he was not back there when they reopened. I've worked for companies like that (I'm caucasion). I know other people who have been given similar ultimatums by their employers in other states that are also caucasion. I resent the implication that race has anything to do with such conduct.

The reason you meet foreigners as maids is because these people are immigrants; by definition they represent a slice of humanity that wants something better and is willing to work their asses off (and often break the immigration laws) to get it.

I happen to know an owner of a major hotel in Madison WI. His imigrants are here legally. But you are right - they are willing to work their asses off. So was I when needed, so am I today.

To compare them to the descendents of those forcefully brought to this country is ridiculous.

Who says anything about talking about who or how they got to the US. I said that I didn't understand why people on welfare did not take those jobs. I never implied race at all. Why are you?

Another thing. Just becasue someone's great great was a slave, is not an direct explaination as to what that person is willing to do. Sorry, that's excusism at its worst. I know two many people of african desent who are doing well. All it takes is a positive supportive environment for them to succeed in a single generation. Why don't we create that environment; why havn't "they" created that environment - other cultures have?

There are of course differences between the poor and well to do in what they can do in society. I am not claiming any different. My claim is that the social programs of the past and present creates an environment that squashes the need for achievement and enlarged the population of the poor much more than it needs to be.

There will always be a poor class, there will always be a rich class, and a middle class. America has done very well in general in having a large middle class (a lot of countries have small middle classes).

What perturbs me is how our society has created - and supports to this day (in my opinon) a structure that has probably doubled the size of the poor class than what would have exisited under a different set of rules.

Why are there so many of them is my fundamental question. What destroyed the concept that you kept digging in and not accepting a lower class lifestyle. In my view: the concept that the goverment one way or another would support you farily well for doing next to nothing. Why do anything more than that. Why work hard to get ahead. Someone else will take care of us. Why change.

I've lived it, I have family still living off of others (Gee, we got on the "volunteer" list for a new program - that is within my immediate family: they can smell out the chance for government money from anywhere), or just move elsewhere where they can live on welfare forever (that is also immediate family - who has been on full welfare almost their entier adult life and will be on it until they die).

I also broke out of it. Call them ancedotes if you will. I, at least can speak from experience on what works and what dosn't. Most of you cannot. I think the article spoke to that. We, the US created a social culture that inhbited people from taking responsibility and pushing ahead. I believe it explains in part what we saw. Why so many...

Eddited to add: I forgot to mention the family member who has a full medical disablility pension - but who is extreemly physically active. Another who is partially disabled; except I've never seen them not be able to do things they want to do... (get the picture).

I will admit that there were a few other familiy members who have also broken out and succeeded in life. But, it is interesteing seeing what they and I did to break out; compared to what the others have done to get government money somehow...

Perry

 

[rubydick]

Date: 9/5/2005 8:40:25 PM
Author: AGBF

This article tells the story of two families from New Orleans and how they fared during and after Hurricane Katrina. If you read it, I think you will agree that although both families suffered, the one with the money was able to make better ''luck'' for itself.

In Tale of Two Families, a Chasm Between Haves and Have-Nots

Deborah

Deb,

That one''s a heartbreaker. Thanks for posting it. And here''s a couple for those who like to believe the Bush*&t coming out of Dubya''s mouth. If you will recall, he said he had to wait for a formal request before acting.

Sunday Aug. 28th Letter From LA Governor asking for Bush to Declare an Emergency

Bush faked levee repair for photo op in New Orleans

 

[rubydick]

What a piece of work. Here's the latest inanity from the mouth of Barbara Bush:

Barbara Bush: Things Working Out 'Very Well' for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans

By E&P Staff

Published: September 05, 2005 7:25 PM ET updated 8:00 PM
NEW YORK Former First Lady Barbara Bush said Monday that living in the Astrodome in Houston was working out well for many of the 15,000 hurricane victims there because they were underprivileged anyway.

Mrs. Bush made her remarks on the National Public Radio program "Marketplace" after visiting hurricane relief centers in Houston with a delegation that included her husband, former President George H.W. Bush, and former President Bill Clinton.

In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: "Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this -- this [she chuckles slightly] is working very well for them."

The two former presidents have been chosen by George W. Bush to head fundraising efforts for the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama were also present during the Houston tour.

 

[movie zombie]

hey, gang, RA has moved the racist rant over to another thread in ''around the world''. talk about distasteful.....

peace, movie zombie

 

[partgypsy]

I''m glad that this disaster is not only provoking people to help out, but to discuss this issue. Though my cynical self predicts in about a month this discussion will be wiped off the boards in favor of the latest news about Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey...

I think people have to understand that people abroad and some here were shocked over were two failures, two catastrophes, that of preparing for the hurricane (inadequate levees where so many lived, every person for themselves evacuation plans), and the death, general lawlessness and suffering afterwards. People were shocked not because simply it was a natural disaster, but being played out on the tv screen was the truth that the US is a divided nation, the land of the haves, and have nots. The the have nots, where they live, how they live, and how they are treated before, during and after a natural disaster is contrary to people''s expectations of how one of the most powerful and prosperous nations would treat its citizens. Now one may be embarrassed by this image of the US being broadcast to the rest of the world. But will this embarrassment motivate change to make this country be true to its beliefs that all men are created equal? Or will it degenerate into the knee jerk reaction of blaming the poor for being poor, while promoting laws, tax changes and practices that make the rich richer and the poor poorer, while reducing opportunity for all but the wealthy to make something better for themselves?