Is this how democracy ends?

[Matata]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

 

[AGBF]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

That was hard reading, Matata! You kind of took me in by mentioning el caudillo, who is just Fancisco Franco, and "leitmotif". The reading was actually pretty hard to understand! I thought Runciman was the Archbishop of Canterbury. Now you're telling me he's a Professor at Cambridge? At any rate, it was a good article. I don't know if this is the end of democracy now or not, but I will be waiting to see if the tanks start to enter the town squares after Trump's inauguration as the author suggested we do, Thanks!

Deb

 

[ksinger]

Whoa. That is a piece that deserves a second reading.

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

This is concerning because I confess I too have been hoping that the intelligence community would be doing a bit of low-level resistance and slow-walking on Trump’s more outre stuff. Probably too much to ask. That group is not used to being bullied; usually does the bullying. It may be more than they can actually stand up against.

But yes, I think this may be the true beginning of the end of democracy. We will likely retain the forms, while hollowing many of them out.

One thing’s for sure, 50 years from now the documentary makers and historians will be having a field day.

As I said, another reading, since it’s a dense piece. And sexy, yes. Definitely sexy. Because big words are a total turn on to us supposedly over-educated elites.

 

[AGBF]

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

I noticed that the author of the piece has written about shadow government. Certainly the notion that the establishments that actually run things in Washington (and, thus, the country) are hidden is a tenet of his belief system.

Deb

 

[Matata]

Whoa. That is a piece that deserves a second reading.

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

This is concerning because I confess I too have been hoping that the intelligence community would be doing a bit of low-level resistance and slow-walking on Trump’s more outre stuff. Probably too much to ask. That group is not used to being bullied; usually does the bullying. It may be more than they can actually stand up against.

But yes, I think this may be the true beginning of the end of democracy. We will likely retain the forms, while hollowing many of them out.

One thing’s for sure, 50 years from now the documentary makers and historians will be having a field day.

As I said, another reading, since it’s a dense piece. And sexy, yes. Definitely sexy. Because big words are a total turn on to us supposedly over-educated elites.

I knew that paragraph would get you not only for the scariness but there's that double hyphenated phrase "military-industrial-intelligence complex." Nothing like a double hyphen 4 word phrase with multisyllabic words to get me all hot and bothered.

As far as the intelligence community bowing to trump. We have to remember that there's never been an autocrat in charge and never a person who has insulted to such a degree those who put their lives on the line for this country. I believe that the intelligence community is adept at finding ways of disappearing such a problem.

 

[Dee*Jay]

I particularly like the correlation between Trump's attraction and opioid addiction. "A symptom of a cluster of social dysfunctions" indeed!

 

[redwood66]

Archetypal Walmart customer.

Elitist drivel. All of it.

To top that it says that we don't know what is going to happen because there is no basis in history for it.

Perverse glee! Yes!

 

[ksinger]

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

I noticed that the author of the piece has written about shadow government. Certainly the notion that the establishments that actually run things in Washington (and, thus, the country) are hidden is a tenet of his belief system.

Deb

https://www.amazon.com/National-Security-Government-Michael-Glennon/dp/0190206446/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484271973&sr=1-3&keywords=national+security+and+double+government

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "tenet of his belief system", when there is quite a bit of evidence to back that up. If you read "National Security and Double Government" by Michael J. Glennon, (Amazon link above) you will find that the idea of two types of government have been posited since the 1800s. The political theorist he uses as his jumping-off point, is Walter Bagehot, who was British. He spoke of the "dignified" and "efficient" institutions in English government. Dignified referred to the monarchy and the House of Lords, while efficient referred to The House of Commons, the Cabinet and the Prime Minister. Glennon, for the the purposes of his book, calls the two strains of governance he sees in the US government, "Madisonian" and "Trumanite", corresponding very roughly to the concepts of dignified and efficient. And Glennon is no conspiracy theorist (I have zero use for those) and posits nothing like it. He shows that while it may look suspicious, the situation has grown up rather organically, has been on autopilot for quite a while now. Of course, autopilot may not be enough to stand a full-on assault by a Trump. Hence my concerns.

Anyway, it's a good book. He explains things in great and nuanced and supported detail, which is my way of saying please don't respond to my tiny paragraph as if it is a decent review or a synopsis. It's not. This book is very academic-y and elite-y though, since Glennon is a professer and all, and everyone knows they're an arrogant bunch who thinks that learning and knowing stuff, means something.

Michael J. Glennon is professor of international law at The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. He is the author of National Security and Double Government (2014).[1]

Glennon studied political science at the College of St. Thomas (B.A., 1970). As an undergraduate, he worked for three summers as a staff assistant for congressman Donald M. Fraser (D-MN).[2] Glennon attended law school at the University of Minnesota (J.D., 1973). After graduating law school, Glennon worked as assistant counsel for the Office of the Legislative Counsel at the United States Senate.[1]

From 1977-1980, he was counsel to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Glennon was professor of law at the University of California, Davis from 1987-2002, and a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars from 2001-2002. Since 2002, he has been professor of international law at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.[3][1]

Selected works[edit]
Books
National Security and Double Government (2014)
The Fog of Law: Pragmatism, Security, and International Law (2010)
Limits of Law, Prerogatives of Power: Interventionism after Kosovo (2001)

 

[ksinger]

Whoa. That is a piece that deserves a second reading.

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

This is concerning because I confess I too have been hoping that the intelligence community would be doing a bit of low-level resistance and slow-walking on Trump’s more outre stuff. Probably too much to ask. That group is not used to being bullied; usually does the bullying. It may be more than they can actually stand up against.

But yes, I think this may be the true beginning of the end of democracy. We will likely retain the forms, while hollowing many of them out.

One thing’s for sure, 50 years from now the documentary makers and historians will be having a field day.

As I said, another reading, since it’s a dense piece. And sexy, yes. Definitely sexy. Because big words are a total turn on to us supposedly over-educated elites.

I knew that paragraph would get you not only for the scariness but there's that double hyphenated phrase "military-industrial-intelligence complex." Nothing like a double hyphen 4 word phrase with multisyllabic words to get me all hot and bothered.

As far as the intelligence community bowing to trump. We have to remember that there's never been an autocrat in charge and never a person who has insulted to such a degree those who put their lives on the line for this country. I believe that the intelligence community is adept at finding ways of disappearing such a problem.

The intelligence community certainly see their positions as ones requiring continuity and the propagation of a kind of institutional memory to function properly, unlike the continual changing of the guard along the outer walls (so to speak). This continuity is good but generates a few problems it's true. But can you imagine if every admin came in every 4 years and did a massive purge of all that collective depth of experience?

Oh wait, we may not have to imagine it....

Oh, yeah, and doing that to me right before bed?? Seriously?? I was thrashing for over an hour unable to stop thinking deep elistest-y thoughts and having images of even LONGER hyphenated words bouncing around in my brain. THANKS!

 

[Tekate]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n23/david-runciman/is-this-how-democracy-ends

Scary, sad times

 

[ksinger]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n23/david-runciman/is-this-how-democracy-ends

Scary, sad times

Funny girl! One link I'd not actually gone to yet.

Here's how it's gone so far this morning....

Matata's original link mentions Karl Popper, who I recall (vaguely) from my reading of “The Passion of The Western Mind” many years ago. So I had to brush up on him.

Then, still from the original article, I took this link

https://www.inverse.com/article/23509-trump-election-rural-america-opioid-epidemic-heroin

...which sent me here and here

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/04/10/a-new-divide-in-american-death/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/01/middle-aged-white-americans-left-behind-and-dying-early/433863/

Wheee! Down the rabbit hole!!!

 

[AGBF]

One thing that immediately struck me, as the author critiqued Runciman’s observations, was his saying this:

“As for the military-industrial-intelligence complex that Runciman suspects will save the day, I doubt senior personnel in that establishment are immune from the blandishments of career advancement or the object lesson of being sacked. Bush and his vice president succeeded in concocting a fictitious pretext for unprovoked war by jawboning intelligence agencies to give them what they wanted. “Go along to get along” is the Washington Beltway’s prime directive, and why will it be different this time?”

I noticed that the author of the piece has written about shadow government. Certainly the notion that the establishments that actually run things in Washington (and, thus, the country) are hidden is a tenet of his belief system.

Deb

https://www.amazon.com/National-Security-Government-Michael-Glennon/dp/0190206446/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484271973&sr=1-3&keywords=national+security+and+double+government

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "tenet of his belief system", when there is quite a bit of evidence to back that up. If you read "National Security and Double Government" by Michael J. Glennon, (Amazon link above) you will find that the idea of two types of government have been posited since the 1800s. The political theorist he uses as his jumping-off point, is Walter Bagehot, who was British. He spoke of the "dignified" and "efficient" institutions in English government. Dignified referred to the monarchy and the House of Lords, while efficient referred to The House of Commons, the Cabinet and the Prime Minister. Glennon, for the the purposes of his book, calls the two strains of governance he sees in the US government, "Madisonian" and "Trumanite", corresponding very roughly to the concepts of dignified and efficient. And Glennon is no conspiracy theorist (I have zero use for those) and posits nothing like it. He shows that while it may look suspicious, the situation has grown up rather organically, has been on autopilot for quite a while now. Of course, autopilot may not be enough to stand a full-on assault by a Trump. Hence my concerns.

Anyway, it's a good book. He explains things in great and nuanced and supported detail, which is my way of saying please don't respond to my tiny paragraph as if it is a decent review or a synopsis. It's not. This book is very academic-y and elite-y though, since Glennon is a professer and all, and everyone knows they're an arrogant bunch who thinks that learning and knowing stuff, means something.

Michael J. Glennon is professor of international law at The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. He is the author of National Security and Double Government (2014).[1]

Glennon studied political science at the College of St. Thomas (B.A., 1970). As an undergraduate, he worked for three summers as a staff assistant for congressman Donald M. Fraser (D-MN).[2] Glennon attended law school at the University of Minnesota (J.D., 1973). After graduating law school, Glennon worked as assistant counsel for the Office of the Legislative Counsel at the United States Senate.[1]

From 1977-1980, he was counsel to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Glennon was professor of law at the University of California, Davis from 1987-2002, and a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars from 2001-2002. Since 2002, he has been professor of international law at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.[3][1]

Selected works[edit]
Books
National Security and Double Government (2014)
The Fog of Law: Pragmatism, Security, and International Law (2010)
Limits of Law, Prerogatives of Power: Interventionism after Kosovo (2001)

I loved reading this entire posting, K. From beginning to end you gave me far too much credit. It must be your own elitest Weltanschauung, which you projected onto me that caused that phenomenon because I am in no way worthy of it. I only used the phrase "tenet of his belief system" because I was lazy and imprecise, not because I was attempting to throw doubt on the reality of shadow government. And as to that discussion of how the idea of shadow government started in Great Britain and then there was a version just for the US...wow! I felt as if I were sitting in a history class as a student again. You could be a history professor-or is he a high school teacher?- like your husband! You certainly had me captivated! I didn't know any of that stuff!

There was no need to worry I could respond to your tiny paragraph as if it were a decent review or synopsis, because I was just too grateful to have you explain those things to me to criticize you in any way. You must hang out with a very tough crowd if you are used to people criticizing you for that kind of writing, ksinger! All I can say is: much obliged.

Deb

 

[Matata]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

 

[ksinger]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Elitist. Yep that's me. With my single BS (and yes, I realize that opens me to a lot of digs) in a business-y area, from a public university in a low-education state*. One of the 7 states mentioned prominently in the above articles as one where the white mortality rate - especially white female mortality - is much higher than everywhere else.

However, I've decided to accept the moniker, since I've been accused more than a time or two. Live it up eh? I figure I'd best get busy enjoying being elite-y and super-snobby intellectual-ish before my likely fast approaching expiration date. (Or my brain finishes melting, whichever comes first)

And champagne Matata? Really? You're not fooling anyone. You were hitting the high-end scotch, admit it.

*Where we don't cotton to reading too much. Formal schooling is suspect from the git go, and reading past formal college is not generally approved of around here. Continual self-selected reading? You are NOT to be trusted.

 

[ksinger]

I loved reading this entire posting, K. From beginning to end you gave me far too much credit. It must be your own elitest Weltanschauung, which you projected onto me that caused that phenomenon because I am in no way worthy of it. I only used the phrase "tenet of his belief system" because I was lazy and imprecise, not because I was attempting to throw doubt on the reality of shadow government. And as to that discussion of how the idea of shadow government started in Great Britain and then there was a version just for the US...wow! I felt as if I were sitting in a history class as a student again. You could be a history professor-or is he a high school teacher?- like your husband! You certainly had me captivated! I didn't know any of that stuff!

There was no need to worry I could respond to your tiny paragraph as if it were a decent review or synopsis, because I was just too grateful to have you explain those things to me to criticize you in any way. You must hang out with a very tough crowd if you are used to people criticizing you for that kind of writing, ksinger! All I can say is: much obliged.

Deb

Ha. Thanks Deb.

He's a high school history teacher, and I think there may be more than a few reasons why we married. We certainly both have teachers (and there are a couple of law profs on my side) in the genetic makeup.

But no, I'm not a teacher, and don't pretend to be. Too tough a gig for this chickie. I just read a lot of non-fiction and remember enough of it to share some of it from time to time. Or maybe it's not really that I read so much volume, just as heavy as possible. I've not got that much time left now in my life to learn and be enthralled by new ideas and deep thinkers, so I have to keep moving. There's still so much I don't know!

Glennon's book is one of MY choices, BTW. Hubs was monumentally uninterested. We tend to approach the same topics from slightly different angles. Meaning we don't always agree or read the same stuff. I know, and here people thought we were joined at the hip and I only parroted his positions (like a good wife should).

 

[Tekate]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Matata! thank you for your kind words and ksinger and AGBF just the best at being civil, well read, and kind!

lucky us right

peace!

 

[redwood66]

Are you saying I am not civil?

 

[Tekate]

Are you saying I am not civil?

Nope. I was saying they were civil - when in fact it is hard to be. Not about you Red..

 

[AGBF]

Are you saying I am not civil?

Nope. I was saying they were civil - when in fact it is hard to be. Not about you Red..

Thanks, Kate. On my behalf and ksinger's. That's high praise indeed. I was trying hard to see why we wouldn't have been civil to each other, though. We were not exactly on opposite sides of an argument. Then I saw one potential spot where we might have gotten nasty (if we had tried hard). K could have been rougher on me about my wording when I said the belief in shadow government was a "tenet of the belief system" of Mike Lofgren, the author of the article we were discussing. Then I could have snapped at her, I suppose. Pricescope squabbles have erupted over less. Still, it seems a bit farfetched. It isn't as if we were arguing two different sides of the abortion debate or public prayer.

But thank you.

Deb

 

[ksinger]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Matata! thank you for your kind words and ksinger and AGBF just the best at being civil, well read, and kind!

lucky us right

peace!

Not too many accolades for me at least, Tekate dear. Don't mix me up with Deb, who really exemplifies all the the things you say. I will accept well read (at least in certain topics and for my area of the country). But civil? Not always. And kind? No. I missed the inherent sweetness required for what people perceive as kindness, by a mile. (Many on this board know this is a true statement.) I do not easily suffer intellectual laziness, in myself or others. My version of kindness is to simply not speak. It's the best I can usually manage, when I want to rip heads off. Some days though, I find I give not the smallest single solitary damn about kindness, or civility. So, like I said, not too many accolades. You've never actually seen me in full cry.

 

[redwood66]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n23/david-runciman/is-this-how-democracy-ends

Scary, sad times

I have to say that this article is probably much more realistic than the review of it you posted first. While I do not agree with much of what he says, his take on why people voted for Trump is probably closer to reality than the liberals who say everyone of the Trump voters is a racist or other -ists ad nauseam. What else can people who had trepidation about voting for him do but rely on the checks and balances put in place by our unique in history governmental system? He cannot start WWIII with a phone and a pen but he can stir up the governmental machine that much of the country does not consider working in their best benefit. Here is a running poll of the Wrong Direction/Right Direction. Can you see the drop in wrong direction since the election?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_wrong_track_jan9

 

[Tekate]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n23/david-runciman/is-this-how-democracy-ends

Scary, sad times

I have to say that this article is probably much more realistic than the review of it you posted first. While I do not agree with much of what he says, his take on why people voted for Trump is probably closer to reality than the liberals who say everyone of the Trump voters is a racist or other -ists ad nauseam. What else can people who had trepidation about voting for him do but rely on the checks and balances put in place by our unique in history governmental system? He cannot start WWIII with a phone and a pen but he can stir up the governmental machine that much of the country does not consider working in their best benefit. Here is a running poll of the Wrong Direction/Right Direction. Can you see the drop in wrong direction since the election?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_wrong_track_jan9

At a snails pace he has done a little improvement, but the majority of Americans dont think much of him.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/12/08/poll-majority-americans-unhappy-trumps-handling-transition/95149844/

most Americans think the government isn't working for them? Most Americans actually deal much more with their local government than the federal government.

If Trump is a racist why is it so far to assume the people who support him are racists also?
So far Trump hasn't even released his tax returns.. previous presidents have.. so yes there are checks and balances, but we will see which ones are used against him by a republican congress..

I don't want to be friendly with Russia. Nope. I don't want to be friendly with China. But do I have a right to force what America thinks on their government? maybe. But the one china policy isn't negotiable I think.. maybe I am wrong.. I have many problems that stand in my way of having any good opinion of Trump.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

 

[redwood66]

Posting this especially for ksinger and AGBF because it has so many sexy words in it -- like leitmotif, caudillo, and a smattering of Latin -- ooooh, I'm gettin' the shivers.

http://billmoyers.com/story/maybe-democracy-ends/

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n23/david-runciman/is-this-how-democracy-ends

Scary, sad times

I have to say that this article is probably much more realistic than the review of it you posted first. While I do not agree with much of what he says, his take on why people voted for Trump is probably closer to reality than the liberals who say everyone of the Trump voters is a racist or other -ists ad nauseam. What else can people who had trepidation about voting for him do but rely on the checks and balances put in place by our unique in history governmental system? He cannot start WWIII with a phone and a pen but he can stir up the governmental machine that much of the country does not consider working in their best benefit. Here is a running poll of the Wrong Direction/Right Direction. Can you see the drop in wrong direction since the election?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_wrong_track_jan9

At a snails pace he has done a little improvement, but the majority of Americans dont think much of him.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

I can say that I also had a very low opinion of a one term senator with no executive experience who wanted to fundamentally transform America.

The part about race in the Pew article is very interesting since we have had an AA president for 8 years. Why is it so bad? And all parties think this.

 

[Tekate]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Matata! thank you for your kind words and ksinger and AGBF just the best at being civil, well read, and kind!

lucky us right

peace!

Not too many accolades for me at least, Tekate dear. Don't mix me up with Deb, who really exemplifies all the the things you say. I will accept well read (at least in certain topics and for my area of the country). But civil? Not always. And kind? No. I missed the inherent sweetness required for what people perceive as kindness, by a mile. (Many on this board know this is a true statement.) I do not easily suffer intellectual laziness, in myself or others. My version of kindness is to simply not speak. It's the best I can usually manage, when I want to rip heads off. Some days though, I find I give not the smallest single solitary damn about kindness, or civility. So, like I said, not too many accolades. You've never actually seen me in full cry.

I do understand how you feel.. when I see an ice storm going through the middle of America I think "ha they deserve it" that really isn't me.. I understand all you say.

Yes Deb is a great lady.. the best kind.. But don't sell yourself short. We need Debs, Kates and Karens. I learned early that the USA isn't going to be all I wanted (my Dad told me to go to Cuba and raise sugar - of course he was uber buzzed ) but I persevere... We need the opposite of a Kate to balance, I can be middle ground, but you don't see that much today.

Peace! and

 

[ksinger]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Matata! thank you for your kind words and ksinger and AGBF just the best at being civil, well read, and kind!

lucky us right

peace!

Not too many accolades for me at least, Tekate dear. Don't mix me up with Deb, who really exemplifies all the the things you say. I will accept well read (at least in certain topics and for my area of the country). But civil? Not always. And kind? No. I missed the inherent sweetness required for what people perceive as kindness, by a mile. (Many on this board know this is a true statement.) I do not easily suffer intellectual laziness, in myself or others. My version of kindness is to simply not speak. It's the best I can usually manage, when I want to rip heads off. Some days though, I find I give not the smallest single solitary damn about kindness, or civility. So, like I said, not too many accolades. You've never actually seen me in full cry.

I do understand how you feel.. when I see an ice storm going through the middle of America I think "ha they deserve it" that really isn't me.. I understand all you say.

Yes Deb is a great lady.. the best kind.. But don't sell yourself short. We need Debs, Kates and Karens. I learned early that the USA isn't going to be all I wanted (my Dad told me to go to Cuba and raise sugar - of course he was uber buzzed ) but I persevere... We need the opposite of a Kate to balance, I can be middle ground, but you don't see that much today.

Peace! and

Well from my position in the dead center of the country, I can tell you the arrival of the highly-touted Icepocalypse 2017, was pretty much a total dud. Our guys are mostly good at the spring stuff. Winter? Not so much.

But not to worry - around here there's always the next drought or tornado (or nowadays, earthquakes) to generate some unworthy schadenfreude to feel guilty about.

 

[redwood66]

If Trump is a racist why is it so far to assume the people who support him are racists also?
So far Trump hasn't even released his tax returns.. previous presidents have.. so yes there are checks and balances, but we will see which ones are used against him by a republican congress..

I don't want to be friendly with Russia. Nope. I don't want to be friendly with China. But do I have a right to force what America thinks on their government? maybe. But the one china policy isn't negotiable I think.. maybe I am wrong.. I have many problems that stand in my way of having any good opinion of Trump.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

The racism mantra about Trump voters is getting quite old. You are not listening to them. On the list of things most important to those voters race relations is quite low. Why does that make them racist? Many Americans in that link you posted think race relations are worse now but that is still not near the top of the list of important factors for Trump voters. The fact that liberals correlate tougher immigration laws and enforcing the laws that exist to racism is just astounding to me. Trump says stupid things but I do not believe he is a racist.

We absolutely need to be tough but fair with Russia and China. But whatever happens needs to benefit the US first.

 

[redwood66]

Since it bears on the race discussion. Good for this college and their band.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/black-college-trump-inauguration.html?_r=0

 

[Calliecake]

Red, Just because you don't believe Trump to be a racist doesn't mean the majority of us here share your views. Call me crazy, but I tend to listen to a politician when he/she states his views. When someone shows you who they are, I believe you should believe them. Trump continues to show us exactly who he is.

 

[Dancing Fire]

If Trump is a racist why is it so far to assume the people who support him are racists also?
So far Trump hasn't even released his tax returns.. previous presidents have.. so yes there are checks and balances, but we will see which ones are used against him by a republican congress..

I don't want to be friendly with Russia. Nope. I don't want to be friendly with China. But do I have a right to force what America thinks on their government? maybe. But the one china policy isn't negotiable I think.. maybe I am wrong.. I have many problems that stand in my way of having any good opinion of Trump.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

The racism mantra about Trump voters is getting quite old. You are not listening to them. On the list of things most important to those voters race relations is quite low. Why does that make them racist? Many Americans in that link you posted think race relations are worse now but that is still not near the top of the list of important factors for Trump voters. The fact that liberals correlate tougher immigration laws and enforcing the laws that exist to racism is just astounding to me. Trump says stupid things but I do not believe he is a racist.

We absolutely need to be tough but fair with Russia and China. But whatever happens needs to benefit the US first.

Red for Prez. in 2020..

 

[Tekate]

ksinger and AGBF,
I thought of you awesome women last night as I was sitting in bed amongst my silken sheets, summoning my butler to bring me another glass of the finest champagne, and fondling my multiple degrees from multiple institutions of higher learning with the highest reputations for imparting the best and greatest amount of unimpeachable verified knowledge, secure in the thought that I would awaken to the privilege of reading more elitist drivel from your critically thinking minds and I wasn't disappointed.

Tekate, I haven't said so before, but I value your contributions also. Thank you.

Matata! thank you for your kind words and ksinger and AGBF just the best at being civil, well read, and kind!

lucky us right

peace!

Not too many accolades for me at least, Tekate dear. Don't mix me up with Deb, who really exemplifies all the the things you say. I will accept well read (at least in certain topics and for my area of the country). But civil? Not always. And kind? No. I missed the inherent sweetness required for what people perceive as kindness, by a mile. (Many on this board know this is a true statement.) I do not easily suffer intellectual laziness, in myself or others. My version of kindness is to simply not speak. It's the best I can usually manage, when I want to rip heads off. Some days though, I find I give not the smallest single solitary damn about kindness, or civility. So, like I said, not too many accolades. You've never actually seen me in full cry.

I do understand how you feel.. when I see an ice storm going through the middle of America I think "ha they deserve it" that really isn't me.. I understand all you say.

Yes Deb is a great lady.. the best kind.. But don't sell yourself short. We need Debs, Kates and Karens. I learned early that the USA isn't going to be all I wanted (my Dad told me to go to Cuba and raise sugar - of course he was uber buzzed ) but I persevere... We need the opposite of a Kate to balance, I can be middle ground, but you don't see that much today.

Peace! and

Well from my position in the dead center of the country, I can tell you the arrival of the highly-touted Icepocalypse 2017, was pretty much a total dud. Our guys are mostly good at the spring stuff. Winter? Not so much.

But not to worry - around here there's always the next drought or tornado (or nowadays, earthquakes) to generate some unworthy schadenfreude to feel guilty about.

up here in New England, we were forecast for a huge YUGE storm a few weeks ago.. never happened.. then they said 2-4 inches last week and we had 14 inches.. I don't want anything to happen to anyone I have always hated bad juju and believe it does come around, AND I am nice ish?

Peace! and here' s to great weather!!!