Is legal marriage necessary?

[suchende]

The graph shows the disparity, but I think the commentary is unnecessary. I think it proves too much.

 

[iheartscience]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans have lower rates of marriage than Caucasian Americans do...just a fact.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

I dunno. There's clearly a trend that's more exaggerated in some demographics. It makes me think the plateau for the country as a whole isn't on the horizon. I could be wrong.

You went from asking general neccessity of marriage to bringing up poverty related to unwed mothers of certain ethnic classes.

 

[suchende]

MC, I am sorry for choosing that graph. Those aren't topics I intended to introduce at all. It was just a crisp, clear graph.

 

[iheartscience]

Did I miss a post about how this relates to poverty?

ETA nevermind, I see that you're talking about the graph that was just posted. I don't think questions of poverty are out of bounds when it comes to marriage.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans have lower rates of marriage than Caucasian Americans do...just a fact.

So what.

This thread was about the general reasons why or why not to to get married, etc., not about ethnic groups.

 

[mrs jam]

For me, I knew my DH was my one-and-only long before we even got engaged. I probably knew after my second margarita. We didn't need marriage to make anything feel permanent or set in stone; we both felt secure in our relationship without it. It's also a second marriage for both of us, so we both had our own experiences under our belts of marriage being no guarantee of a "happily ever after." It does give me the warm fuzzies, though, when I hear my DH address me as "my wife," and I love having his last name. Marriage also helps to shut everyone else up! No more questions like, "So when are you two tying the knot/getting hitched/putting a ring on it/putting on the ball and chain," etc. etc.

edited because apparently I've lost my ability to spell

 

[iheartscience]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans have lower rates of marriage than Caucasian Americans do...just a fact.

So what.

This thread was about the general reasons why or why not to to get married, etc., not about ethnic groups.

Right, and suchende thinks that when rates of marriage among whites drop to the same level of African-American and Hispanic-American rates of marriage, then maybe the decline will level off. I don't see how that's offensive. But everyone seems to gets offended by everything on Pricescope, which is why it's such a boring place these days.

 

[suchende]

Fixed the graph to not have the commentary. The reason I think it supports the idea that marriage in general in the U.S. might be fading is from a Washington Post article that noted "Often what happens in black America is a sign of what the rest of America can eventually expect." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032500029.html

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Did I miss a post about how this relates to poverty?

ETA nevermind, I see that you're talking about the graph that was just posted. I don't think questions of poverty are out of bounds when it comes to marriage.

You did miss. The left side of the graph explained that the higher rate of unwed black women was also related to the higher level of poverty.

 

[somethingshiny]

I don't think prenups should be legal. You either want to marry a person or you don't. If you're worried about protecting your finances, perhaps you aren't as in love as you think.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Well, getting married says you're willing to take that risk IMO.

So, if the people getting prenups didn't legally wed because they aren't ready, less divorce. Marriage means more.

 

[mrs jam]

Fixed the graph to not have the commentary. The reason I think it supports the idea that marriage in general in the U.S. might be fading is from a Washington Post article that noted "Often what happens in black America is a sign of what the rest of America can eventually expect." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032500029.html

This explains all of the Tyler Perry movies.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans have lower rates of marriage than Caucasian Americans do...just a fact.

So what.

This thread was about the general reasons why or why not to to get married, etc., not about ethnic groups.

Right, and suchende thinks that when rates of marriage among whites drop to the same level of African-American and Hispanic-American rates of marriage, then maybe the decline will level off. I don't see how that's offensive. But everyone seems to gets offended by everything on Pricescope, which is why it's such a boring place these days.

I'm not offended. Just bewildered as to why suchende began talking about her rich friends having kids out of wedlock and then decided to redirect to poor black women.

 

[suchende]

MC, I didn't read the sidebar and since edited. I hadn't intended to derail us.

 

[Circe]

Necessary? Nope. It makes a lot of things, like the list of items VapidLapid posted, easier ... but, like VL said, all that could just as easily be accomplished with a contract. But at the end of the day, isn't that what marriage boils down to?

I have to say, SomethingShiny, I violently disagree with your point about prenups - eliminating them wouldn't minimize divorce, it would just make it easier for things to go wildly awry in the proceedings (see also, ugly custody battles, as I believe prenups can't extend to offspring).

 

[suchende]

I'm not offended. Just bewildered as to why suchende began talking about her rich friends having kids out of wedlock and then decided to redirect to poor black women.

What?

 

[somethingshiny]

"violently" ??? Wow.

I stand by my opinion. If those who think prenups are necessary simply didn't get married, they'd have no divorce to worry about. I really think if planning your financial protection is something that tops your list when you're committing your life to someone, you're not ready.


I respect your opinion though. And obviously you win this one because prenups do in fact exist.

 

[iheartscience]

2of2 -- I don't think it will level off any time soon because of the huge gap between ethnicities. I think it's more likely that whites in the U.S. will "catch up" with African-Americans and Hispanics.

Am I confused...is this an avenue to venture down?

African-Americans and Hispanic/Latino Americans have lower rates of marriage than Caucasian Americans do...just a fact.

So what.

This thread was about the general reasons why or why not to to get married, etc., not about ethnic groups.

Right, and suchende thinks that when rates of marriage among whites drop to the same level of African-American and Hispanic-American rates of marriage, then maybe the decline will level off. I don't see how that's offensive. But everyone seems to gets offended by everything on Pricescope, which is why it's such a boring place these days.

I'm not offended. Just bewildered as to why suchende began talking about her rich friends having kids out of wedlock and then decided to redirect to poor black women.

Oh I definitely missed the most about rich friends having kids out of wedlock.

But I think from a sociological perspective there are a lot of factors, including race and socioeconomic status, that play into marriage rates. I know we're not supposed to discuss these things on PS, but it's kind of hard to ignore them when you're having a conversation about a social institution.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I'm not offended. Just bewildered as to why suchende began talking about her rich friends having kids out of wedlock and then decided to redirect to poor black women.

What?

oooops, I mean what you said re: "two of my law school professors." I generally associate such a profession with having money...but then again, they could have $300K in student loan debt.

 

[HollyS]

"Marriage vows are meaningless if divorce is possible." (kenny)


I disagree. My marriage vows are not meaningless to me. Nor to my husband.

Neither your opinion, nor your situation invalidates my vows. And, as conservative as I am, I understand the gay community's desire for the same level of marriage equality. Because it does mean something.

 

[zoebartlett]

My husband and I have been married for a little less than 3 years, and we've been together for almost 8. Neither one of us feels any different in our relationship, although it does have a more official feel I suppose. I don't think legal marriage is necessary for a couple to have a happy and fulfilled life together. I do like knowing, however, that my husband and I can make decisions for one another should a medical emergency arise.

It does make me angry that marriage isn't an option for couples who wish to make it more official too. I'll leave it at that.

 

[ImperfectGirl]

"Marriage vows are meaningless if divorce is possible." (kenny)


I disagree. My marriage vows are not meaningless to me. Nor to my husband.

Neither your opinion, nor your situation invalidates my vows. And, as conservative as I am, I understand the gay community's desire for the same level of marriage equality. Because it does mean something.

Absolutely agree.

 

[VapidLapid]

I think pre-nups are even kind of romantic. They say, "I am not marrying you for your money or some such advantage, I dont care that much about your wealth obtained prior to our union, I am marrying you for the meaning to us, not the money, and expect you are marrying me with the same intentions. Life IS complex in the post-modern world and we both have the need to feel more secure and comfortable with each other in the knowledge that the MAIN thing holding us together is only us.

 

[rosetta]

Nah.

I'm gonna do it though.


Rebel that I am

 

[mrs jam]

I think pre-nups are even kind of romantic. They say, "I am not marrying you for your money or some such advantage, I dont care that much about your wealth obtained prior to our union, I am marrying you for the meaning to us, not the money, and expect you are marrying me with the same intentions. Life IS complex in the post-modern world and we both have the need to feel more secure and comfortable with each other in the knowledge that the MAIN thing holding us together is only us.

It's probably feels more "romantic" for the wealthier party, though.

 

[Circe]

"violently" ??? Wow.

I stand by my opinion. If those who think prenups are necessary simply didn't get married, they'd have no divorce to worry about. I really think if planning your financial protection is something that tops your list when you're committing your life to someone, you're not ready.


I respect your opinion though. And obviously you win this one because prenups do in fact exist.

Well, violently in euphemism, but not aggressively in fact - I respect your opinion, too! I do think that people who have prenups can want the ability to be next of kin, make medical decisions, etc. ... and still want to know that, at the end of the day, no matter what, they'll have assets that no one can take from them. There are an awful lot of court cases out there of women being left destitute, pre-pre-nup, although I do think these days people tend to think of wealthy men being bilked before anything else.

 

[shihtzulover]

It may not be necessary, but I still 100% believe in it, and what it represents.

 

[fieryred33143]

This is a purely emotional response since I don't know the benefits of it legally since I'm not married myself. My daughter was born out of wedlock. We did ourselves a huge favor by not running to the altar when we found out we were having a baby. We were together for six years before getting pregnant. The hardest decision we had faced up to that point was whether to stay on Time Sq or by MSG when visiting NY. We worked hard and partied hard. Our lives were very easy between having great finances to traveling to doing what we wanted, when we wanted. When I found out I was pregnant, the plan was to get married 2 months later. However, the pregnancy and then eventually parenthood brought to light so many issues we had in our relationship. I don't think that we would have divorced had we gotten married before having a child but I think it would have been a strong consideration. I like to think that our daughter turned our relationship right side up because we were kind of living in a weird "everything is perfect" fantasy world.

Anyway, through all of this I have come to really value and appreciate the vows people make to one another. It's amazing how two people from two different walks of life can come together and form a family (whether with children or without). To share words of commitment to one another and mean it is very beautiful to me. I hope marriage never fades out.

 

[Autumnovember]

I think pre-nups are even kind of romantic. They say, "I am not marrying you for your money or some such advantage, I dont care that much about your wealth obtained prior to our union, I am marrying you for the meaning to us, not the money, and expect you are marrying me with the same intentions. Life IS complex in the post-modern world and we both have the need to feel more secure and comfortable with each other in the knowledge that the MAIN thing holding us together is only us.

I am getting married in October.

FI is going into this marriage having a lot of hard earned assets. He asked if I would be willing to have a pre-nup. I don't like to think of a pre-nup as making divorce an option though. I'm going into this marriage but I know 5 years from now I'll have built up my own assets too and FI is very well aware of that.

I don't mind at all. I know exactly why I'm going into the marriage and I know for sure it isn't for the money and I get that life can get kind of crazy and people can react differently than how they say they would when they are actually in the position to do the reacting.

 

[ksinger]

Well, I'll chime in, since I've had perhaps a bit more experience here than most (although many might not think that "experience" qualifies me to comment, since much of it is of the "what NOT to do" category) I'm the child of divorce, I've cohabitated, and I've been married and divorced and am now married to the right guy, just for background.

On the whole, I think formal marriage has been and is, a good institution for society. Especially for children. As a child of divorce, blessed with a remarkable mother - mentally stable, constantly employed, partially college-educated, and with definite views on child-rearing and an iron will, I used to argue from my own experience that divorce had minimal impact on children. My husband, dealing with a large set of the kids resulting from the idea that marriage is dispensable and the view that fathers are going to be pretty much non-existent, has since disabused me of that notion. Children without 2 parents in the home - and let's face it, if marriage is dead as a concept, many men won't and DON'T stick around - are more likely to live in poverty, and to repeat the cycle. The children of single parent female-headed households are less likely to do well in school than kids with two parents or even those in single father-headed households. And of course the impact for male children, of not having a father is huge. The growth of gangs pretty much shows how desperate some of those young men are for a male structure that many females simply can't understand or provide. It's negative certainly, but there it is.

As an example of what the death of the idea of marriage has wrought as an unintended consequence perhaps, I would use this. I mentioned in another thread that a week or so ago one of my husband's students, a smart girl that he had hoped would break out and go to college - she had the chops - showed up pregnant, showing all the other girls her sonagrams. He said she was a minor celebrity, with all the girls crowding around and cooing and congratulating. Yeah. A 17 year old gets pregnant and it's a celebration?? This girl will likely NOT marry, and likely NOT go to college, and will likely struggle all her life, and her child along with her. And this is part and parcel of the death of marriage.

I'm not at all arguing that we should all be forced to stay married, or be forced to marry if a pregnancy occurs. But I do think we should be honest that the decline of marriage has some pretty large consequences for the structure of society and our economy, and some of those consequences we are dealing with now and they aren't very pretty.

I disagree with Kenny that marriage vows are meaningless when divorce is possible. I would argue the opposite. Marriage vows adhered to mean much MORE when you CAN walk with impunity.

Personally, I like marriage much more than cohabitating. I like it better even though my first marriage failed. It signaled my intent to the world, to make a relationship work for the long term. My husband and I are currently beating the odds of second marriages being more prone to failure. But then our situation is a bit different perhaps. He's kinda like athlete's foot - never can quite get rid of it, might as well accept that you're going to have it forever.