Handeling a problematic fiance, you ladies on ｍｙ side?

[Elise]

Date: 8/12/2007 5:57:54 PM
Author: MC

Date: 8/12/2007 5:14:08 PM
Author: AdaBeta27

This whole scenario sounds so much like the ex-marriage of a friend of mine that it''s spooky. He married an Oriental woman, when both were in their early 20s. From what he described to me, it was love at first sight for him but the whole marriage was just one big struggle of conflicting customs, expectations, and control of power. It ended up that the more he tried to be controlling, the more she rebelled or withdrew entirely, then the more he froze her out, etc. Vicious cycle of passive-aggressive behaviors by both. After several years of each trying to control or see just how badly he or she could hurt the other, the whole thing blew up when the woman finally left him for another man. 20 years later, my friend still has his wedding pics hanging on the wall and still mourns his failed marriage. Who was to blame there? I''d have to say both. Neither would compromise. He calls her ''The Inscrutable Oriental,'' and I''d tend to agree with that. She kind of made it policy to tell him little or tell him just what he wanted to hear. We observers likened it that scene from The Godfather: ''Never tell your enemies what''s on your mind.'' I really don''t think either of them started out to manipulate the other. I think both just had a definite roadmap of how a life should be lived, and those roadmaps were too different.

FYI - The PC term is ''Asian,'' not Oriental.

I don''t think there is any PC way of saying what adabeta just wrote. this thread started out with workinghard seeking help for his problem but, quite frankly, seems to have become somewhat racist. "never tell your enemies what''s on your mind"? excuse me? is this a marriage we are talking about here? what is with this generalisation against asian women? i can tell you that there are many asian women on these forum and all of us have different characters, just like women of any other race. some may choose to speak their mind to their other halves, some may adopt a different policy. it is NOT acceptable to pick out specific examples and use them to stereotype.

i just have one thing to say to all those who don''t seem to be able to handle inter-racial marriages where compromise, understanding and acceptance is of utmost importance, DON''T GO INTO THEM!

mc- sorry, this is not personal to you. i just thought copying your post was most appropriate for what i had to say.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I have to say, I think you are all reading way too much into what I said. when I used phrases like "milk" and such, it was a complete joke.I am not particularly funny, and I was feeling the pressure after some of the angry comments that followed my initial post so I tried to make a few funny faces and use words that, in my mind, really emphasized how ridiculous the whole situation is. The fact is I feel that this whole issue is totally ridiculous and 7 months ago I would never have thought that I would care about a ring at all, Ering or otherwise and would never have cared if I got one or not, nor if my fiance wore hers frequently. and now I suddenly find myself caring so much it makes me laugh at myself and feel a bit embarrassed. So I was honestly just making a bad joke and making fun of myself, imagining myself as some "sneaky fox" trying to win her over to the dark side (my side). In reality that is simply not the kind of guy I am, hence why I found it to be somewhat humorous to use vocab such as that, and if you knew me, you might be able to appreciate that a little bit--though online of course you couldn''t, so thats my own fault, again--and it may have been some pretty bad jokes to being with...even in person........may....was...maybe...

All I was really saying is that she doesn''t view the idea of wearing an E-ring quite the same as me. Largely because of how she was raised--for instance her mom only wears hers on a few very special occasions each year, at weddings and events such as that--I have in fact yet to see her wear it outside of pictures.

I have already told her directly how I feel and, well, she lied to me because she saw how I felt but, she didn''t understand it herself and was afraid that I would not understand how her views were so differing from my own. And honestly, there is no way to expect just telling her (or me) would allow either of us to TRULY RELATE WITH each others feelings.

For instance, when a husband says to you "its only a rock!" how do you get him to understand how you feel? by telling him directly, sometimes, but what about when that doesn''t get the points across? of course, you have to SHOW him, take him around to stores, let him see your excitement and involvement, show him all the work you put into studying about diamonds and THEN tell him. So, the only thing that makes sense to me is to SHOW her how I feel, and explain it in pieces over a period of time during emotional filled comments--and then once she has SEEN how I feel then explaining it to her at a later date will have a whole new meaning to her. Just as it does when many of you have shown your husbands how much new larger diamonds mean to you. that was what I meant by "milk" and "milk certainly doesn''t describe it, I was just feeling a bit out of place by the angry comments and wanted to make some jokes, again feeling quite ridiculous about the whole situation and very embarrassed.

Anyway, This involves, for me, cleaning the ring for her, making comments every now and then while displaying my love in some physical way--such as kissing her hand--so that she can actually understand my point of view, rather than just be aware of it.

I really don''t feel that there is anything wrong with that, nor that it is terribly different from changing ones vocabulary from "upgrade" to "Anniversary ring" or any other numerous "communication" tactics I have heard mentioned on here by others, and given full support.

My goal is to try a tactic that might demonstrate my views rather than just state them, after all a symbol point of view can not be created out of words alone, but must be accompanied by emotion, true understanding and a state of mind.

I apologize to anyone who I have offended during this thread and will have to try harder in the future not to do so.

And to those of you who are feeling very negatively toward me now, I suppose I won''t be able to change that here at the moment, though it does make me a bit sad! but nonetheless don''t worry too much about my fiance, I am really not overbearing or inconsiderate at all-as I hope I have been able to portray in some other threads perhaps? In events such as this, where I am very emotionally charged, I have and always will make sure to take time to reflect on myself before reacting, and take a bit of time before saying anything to her (note that the silent treatment lasted about 30-45 seconds before I hugged her and wished her well off to work, and honestly I didn''t want to yell at her for lying to me right before she went back to work, which is what, I am afraid, I would have done--though, obviously, being able to stay totally calm and sweet would have been better ), I always try to make sure that I am not doing anything that would be inappropriate to her as a human being, or offensive to her beliefs or would hurt our relationship in some way. I do respect her (as an EQUAL meaning that I don''t just disregard myself either, though to be honest I usually acquiesce to whatever she wishes when it comes down to it), and I respect all of you who have commented, I feel terrible if I have come across in some negative ways, but, I really believe that if you knew me a little more personally those perceptions of me wouldn''t be able to maintain.

A combination of anger/disappointment, laughing at myself because I feel so ridiculous even caring 1/10 this much, and communicating online where you can''t see my facial expressions and here my tone, combined with some poorly chosen vocab (again going back to some poorly placed jokes and perhaps poor taste in humor), may well have made me come across quite negatively

and its my birthday today to!

hated to read those comments today! Anyway

don''t worry I haven''t done anything mean about this at all, apart from this thread which she would kill me if she read

and I won''t be

so no fears for her, alright?

and again, as to the age comment, please don''t take that too far, it was somewhat of an exaggeration, and it remains a fact that, 65 years ago Japan was a VERY different country than it is now. That isn''t really long ago. I actually just met her aunt today, who is 65, and I would not have guessed, in my most hardest guesses, that she could have been over 45. I did not mean to offend anyone about age, and I am sure that PLENTY of 50 year old Japanese women want Diamond Erings. However, it takes time for cultures to adopt ideas and customs...so, I was just saying...maybe some in that age bracket wouldn''t care...it was really a frivolous comment and I certainly didn''t mean it to be taken too seriously, either. Though I do have some data on ages Vs Diamonds if anyone wants to know, but thats really not the point

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 8/13/2007 4:24:11 AM
Author: Elise

I don''t think there is any PC way of saying what adabeta just wrote. this thread started out with workinghard seeking help for his problem but, quite frankly, seems to have become somewhat racist. ''never tell your enemies what''s on your mind''? excuse me? is this a marriage we are talking about here? what is with this generalisation against asian women? i can tell you that there are many asian women on these forum and all of us have different characters, just like women of any other race. some may choose to speak their mind to their other halves, some may adopt a different policy. it is NOT acceptable to pick out specific examples and use them to stereotype.

i just have one thing to say to all those who don''t seem to be able to handle inter-racial marriages where compromise, understanding and acceptance is of utmost importance, DON''T GO INTO THEM!

mc- sorry, this is not personal to you. i just thought copying your post was most appropriate for what i had to say.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don''t understand why anyone would choose to go into an interracial marriage without very clear expectations on both sides. Marriage is hard enough without adding utterly different backgrounds and cultures. If you go into a marriage where background and culture are starkly different, at least know what you''re getting into and be ready to BLEND, not make your partner submissive to your desires.

Elise, I truly don''t mean this to be racist -- I think there is a perception by some western men that women of certain other cultures are more submissive than western women, so they seek them out. It''s not a very high testament to those men. Unfortunately, they''re out there. I''m wondering if there''s an element of that with Workinghardforsmallrewards.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

guys please read my post above. I do not expect her to submit and frankly am VERY submissive myself. It also had nothing to do with my dating an asian...in fact there was a reason for that, and that was that I worked with some impovershed Laotian children in highschool that really just broke my heart all over the place and everytime I saw asians, male or female, it brought up all kinds of emotions and passions in me. Thus I ended up taking the initiative to talk to whoever I met that invoked those emotions and made alot of friends from other cultures. I in no way expect her to submit to me in anyway that I do not submit to her, I clean up dishes after we eat, though she insist on helping, I fold laundry, make her sit down and massage her, I wait for hours to pick her up from work just to ride home with her, I go out of my way to make sure that I work my schedule around hers, at whatever cost it may be to me, knowing that she is exhausted and appreicating her and her feelings, I take excellent care of her and in no way am demanding or oppresive of her. Her conerns almost always come first for me, but I am a human as well you know?.

However, she refused to tell the people at work about me when we first started dating, I accepted that, we went through a whole ordeal and we made it. Then after I proposed a week ago she suggested not telling the pepole at work and then said she couldn't wear the ring at work, saying she wanted to keep the proposal a seceret. I got really pissed off, but didn't yell and just told her how inappropriate I felt keeping it a seceret was, even for a little while, she agreed and decided she was too nervous about people at work, it turned out they were all a really great encouragement as I had known they would be from the many times I have met them , and then I decided that I really wanted her to wear the ring to, for a variety of reasons. It means A WHOLE LOT to me and I don't see why my wanting her to do one thing for me that means a whole lot to me would inspire all of these opinions that I am trying to get a "submissive" woman. it is the farthest thing from the truth. I have made MANY sacrifices for her, many of them based on cultural demands and I do not regret any of them, sometimes they are more difficult than others and every now and then I am very passionate about one thing or another and in many of those occasions she respects my opinions and othertimes I simply have to accept it regardless of my feelings. But I am not some male cheovenist pig or however you spell it and I am in no way taking advantag eof her, pressuring her, forcing her to do anything, being cruel, bossy or anything else, that above post really offended me, so please don't start making statements like that please, it is as far from the truth as is possible and you have grossly missunderstood me-my fault or not-if that is what you are thinking.

 

[psadmin]

Pricescope is all for supporting each other in problems that arise, but there is no reason for generalization/racism/stereotyping.

If you are trying to help please carefully reread you posts before you submit so that you are succinct, descriptive and respectful.

Andrey
PS Admin

 

[lumpkin]

You have taken quite a hit! Maybe you are the way you say and we have it wrong, which I hope for both of you is the case. You sound pretty young and a bit inexperienced. I think the way for you guys to go is to be very open -- if she''s not expressing the pressure to NOT wear jewelry to work, she needs to do that and not just tell you what you want to hear. And you have to be open to what she''s telling you. If you really do care about her, surely you don''t want her to be bullied by her coworkers and given a hard time by her boss. She''s working LONG hours, so if that happens, a huge part of her life is going to become intollerable. Over a ring. Yes you worked very hard and are working very hard to do that, and you''ve put a lot of thought into it. I hope you are able to see that it''s not so much the ring but the very fact that you put so much hard work and time into it that has the meaning. Without that the ring is just a ring. I do understand your frustration. I just hope you gain the correct perspective.

You guys really might want to see a counsellor during your engagement. Even if you both posess stellar characters and love each other dearly, you will need to overcome a lot of cultural divergences.

 

[Skippy123]

Okay, I think we need Birthday pie! Happy Birthday Workinghardforsmall Rewards!

I honestly can say I always say the wrong things; I understand where you are coming from. So today have a wonderful Birthday and please stick around!

 

[wolftress]

Oh dear... what a controversial thread. I guess we''ll never know the true nature of WHFSR''s and his fiancee''s relationship so I won''t comment on that.

I can only give my 2 cent''s worth and this is it: inter-racial relationships are VERY difficult. DH had to jump through numerous hoops before finally getting the approval of my parents, and then we had to negotiate wedding traditions and so forth. Now that we''re married, there are still some questions of custom that he doesn''t understand, and I just throw my hands in the air and say, "It''s just the way it''s done in my culture!" and he backs down, then we try to find a solution that works for both of us. He doesn''t understand it but he accepts that I''m Chinese and some traditions are important to me. This engagement ring issue will probably be the first of MANY more to come. Have you discussed where the wedding will be, who will be invited, who will pay, will it be a western wedding or a traditional Japanese one, etc?

WHFSR, I feel a bit sorry that you''ve been flamed so badly in this thread, but I think your first few comments were quite tactless and got a lot of people fired up. Any question of race, culture or religion should always be handled with great sensitivity.

Okay, I just read your latest post below and it sounds like you don''t really care so much about her wearing the ring. It''s more about making your engagement public? Has she actually told people at work yet? If she has, then your fears should be resolved. She doesn''t have to wear the ring to be engaged to you... there are a lot of engaged women out there who don''t have an e-ring. It doesn''t make them any less engaged. I know you went through a lot of effort to buy that beautiful ring, but it''s a gift and your fiancee should have the freedom to wear it whenever she wants, as often or as sparingly as she wants.

I don''t think it''s your desire for your fiancee to wear her e-ring that is ticking people off. It''s the way you expressed it. First you said she will have to give in to you in this instance, then you said you had a plan to manipulate her into doing it. Yes, us PS women try to convince our men to buy us upgrades sometimes, but we don''t go around claiming that it is ''unacceptable'' if they say no. We simply hope we can convince them. THAT should have been your slant.

I''m sorry, I meant to give you some support, but got a bit fired up myself.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 8/13/2007 10:00:06 AM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I think we need Birthday pie! Happy Birthday Workinghardforsmall Rewards!

I honestly can say I always say the wrong things; I understand where you are coming from. So today a wonderful Birthday!

I agree...Happy B-day WHFSM...

 

[wolftress]

Date: 8/13/2007 10:11:21 AM
Author: mrssalvo

Date: 8/13/2007 10:00:06 AM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I think we need Birthday pie! Happy Birthday Workinghardforsmall Rewards!

I honestly can say I always say the wrong things; I understand where you are coming from. So today a wonderful Birthday!

I agree...Happy B-day WHFSM...

That looks delicious! What kind of cake is it, Mrssalvo?

And happy birthday, WHSR. I''m sure things will sort themselves out in the end.

 

[musey]

I didn''t want to get in on this thread until the cake/pie showed up! Thanks Skippy/Mrssalvo

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/13/2007 9:59:03 AM
Author: PS Admin

If you are trying to help please carefully reread you posts before you submit so that you are succinct, descriptive and respectful.

Andrey
PS Admin

Thank you for the reminder, Andrey. I will try to address the subject of the ring bearing this in mind.

WHFSR, I think it might be helpful if you reread all of this thread carefully. I do not think that you took in the comments some of us made about your calling your fiancée "a liar" because she failed to follow through on something you wanted her to do.

I also do not think that it has registered with you that many of us have said that we feel you are condemning your fiancée to bullying in her workplace if you force her to contravene cultural norms in Japan.

I will not repeat this. My message is, simply, please reread.

I do wish you and your fiancee the best of luck. I know that you love her.

Deborah

 

[risingsun]

I read your posts carefully, WH, and it does seem to me that you want your FI to make a statement by wearing her ring. You were concerned when she didn't want to share your proposal with her coworkers. This issue continues to sound as if you need her to make a grand gesture, whether it is culturally appropriate or not. You are still calling her a liar...what is that about? What was she supposed to say, after you became so emotionaly invested in the ring? I imagine she knew what type of response she would get. This is not a positive way to begin an engagement, IMHO.

My advice, which you didn't request: stop "romancing the ring"

Edited to add: Today is my birthday, too. Please pass the cake

 

[chrono]

Here's another Asian perspective: many Asian women tend to be passive aggressive (but not all, and this seems to be lessening as Asia is getting more westernized) because it is unseeming for them to be outspoken, direct and confrontational. In her heart, she did NOT lie to you about wearing the ring 24/7. She agreed with you because she understood your sacrifices and how much it means to you, yet did not know quite how to explain that culturally, one does NOT flash their engagement rings on a daily basis. E-rings in most of Asia are only worn on special occasions. This is cultural, not a personal affront. She could be FIRED from her job for wearing her e-ring, which I'm sure you don't want to be the cause.

In Asia, fitting in is very important; everyone is a team, standing out is bad. It's probably already difficult enough for her to be dating a foreigner (from their perspective), let alone is now engaged to one. Don't make her life any harder, okay?

This is most likely why she has delayed the engagement annoucement, not because she is denying the relationship or is ashamed of it, but because she knows that other Japanese nationals will be giving her a hard time and probably even looking down on her for being engaged to an "outsider".

Cake looks good. I'd like a slice of chocolate mousse please.

Happy Birthday Rising Sun, and whoever else I may have missed.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Happy birthday, WHFSR. Wish you both happiness and hope that you can sort out the current issue with rings / publicising your engagement.
Thanks for coming back and explaining again - you''re a brave man!

I hope you do read all of these posts again, because apart from anything else, there''s some good advice from some smart people in them

Good luck.

Jen

 

[Skippy123]

Happy Birthday WHFSR and Risingsun. Life is too short; let's eat cake and Happy bday friends!!!

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 8/13/2007 10:11:21 AM
Author: mrssalvo

Date: 8/13/2007 10:00:06 AM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I think we need Birthday pie! Happy Birthday Workinghardforsmall Rewards!

I agree...Happy B-day WHFSM...

Happy B-day from me too, WHFSM (it''s my DH''s b-day also

)

p.s. -- pls. do go back & re-read the good advice that''s been offered. I agree with AGBF that some key points aren''t really sinking in (whether she''s a "liar" & being concerned for the bullying she may experience if your campaign for ring wearing is successful. Beliefs don''t change overnight. As you said, six months ago you''d have no idea that you''d feel so strongly about a piece of JEWELRY.

 

[winternight]

Ugh. Sorry but I think you need to get some books or other form of education on the cultural norms of the woman you are about to marry. I come from an inter-racial home with two very different religions and my parents never had a problem b/c of the mutual respect they held each other and their beliefs in. You sound incredibly controlling and spoiled. Seriously you''re asking her to wear a ring that will make her uncomfortable and potentially affect her career/working relationships so that you feel better/more secure?

 

[HappyAnniversary]

Happy Birthday WHFSR! Hope all works out.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 8/13/2007 10:00:06 AM
Author: Skippy123
Okay, I think we need Birthday pie! Happy Birthday Workinghardforsmall Rewards!

I honestly can say I always say the wrong things; I understand where you are coming from. So today have a wonderful Birthday and please stick around!

Ditto, well said Skippy. Happy Birthday WHFSR!!!!

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/13/2007 9:45:47 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
guys please read my post above. I do not expect her to submit and frankly am VERY submissive myself. It also had nothing to do with my dating an asian...in fact there was a reason for that, and that was that I worked with some impovershed Laotian children in highschool that really just broke my heart all over the place and everytime I saw asians, male or female, it brought up all kinds of emotions and passions in me. Thus I ended up taking the initiative to talk to whoever I met that invoked those emotions and made alot of friends from other cultures. I in no way expect her to submit to me in anyway that I do not submit to her, I clean up dishes after we eat, though she insist on helping, I fold laundry, make her sit down and massage her, I wait for hours to pick her up from work just to ride home with her, I go out of my way to make sure that I work my schedule around hers, at whatever cost it may be to me, knowing that she is exhausted and appreicating her and her feelings, I take excellent care of her and in no way am demanding or oppresive of her. Her conerns almost always come first for me, but I am a human as well you know?.

However, she refused to tell the people at work about me when we first started dating, I accepted that, we went through a whole ordeal and we made it. Then after I proposed a week ago she suggested not telling the pepole at work and then said she couldn''t wear the ring at work, saying she wanted to keep the proposal a seceret. I got really pissed off, but didn''t yell and just told her how inappropriate I felt keeping it a seceret was, even for a little while, she agreed and decided she was too nervous about people at work, it turned out they were all a really great encouragement as I had known they would be from the many times I have met them , and then I decided that I really wanted her to wear the ring to, for a variety of reasons. It means A WHOLE LOT to me and I don''t see why my wanting her to do one thing for me that means a whole lot to me would inspire all of these opinions that I am trying to get a ''submissive'' woman. it is the farthest thing from the truth. I have made MANY sacrifices for her, many of them based on cultural demands and I do not regret any of them, sometimes they are more difficult than others and every now and then I am very passionate about one thing or another and in many of those occasions she respects my opinions and othertimes I simply have to accept it regardless of my feelings. But I am not some male cheovenist pig or however you spell it and I am in no way taking advantag eof her, pressuring her, forcing her to do anything, being cruel, bossy or anything else, that above post really offended me, so please don''t start making statements like that please, it is as far from the truth as is possible and you have grossly missunderstood me-my fault or not-if that is what you are thinking.

WHSR, I think you need to take charge of your emotions first. Please eliminate that idea that all Asians that you meet are like the Laotian children. There are both developed and developing countries in Asia as do other continents. The emotions you feel when you meet all Asians male or female, just like your example of the Chinese friend keeping her ring in the closet, is unnecessary. The words that you have chosen to use have revealed that you are stereotyping.

You mentioned you were only joking, but please reread your own post, especially the first clarification post where you mentioned about taking control. You sounded like you really meant it. You have mentioned several times that you did not yell even though you were unhappy with the situation -- you came across to me that you either take a passive-agressive approach or you yell and I think either way is not the right way to communicate with your other half. From what I hear, I don''t think your fiancee lied to you. She may be telling you what you wanted to hear to get you off her back because you have not been listening. I agree with the others, you have not addressed some of the points they raised.

 

[TravelingGal]

Well, I''ve been gone for a few days and read this thread in one sitting, and will give you the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like you spoke while feeling very frustrated.

You want her to consider your feelings and prioritize them and she wants you to consider her feelings and prioritize them. Regardless of the issue (cultural, societal, whatever) this is just one of the MANY MANY power struggles you will face as a couple. And whether you know it or not, it IS a power struggle.

You realize that people may look at her funny, even bully her, yet you think your feelings should be more important than what they think. But in her mind, she''s wondering if you are considering HER feelings in this, and whether yours are more important than hers.

You will never be able to force her to feel the way you want. You can only choose to change the way you feel. IMHO, your "subliminal" plan will be pretty obvious to her and she may start to resent the fact that the ring seems to be more important to you than the way she feels. In many of these typical struggles with TGuy, I have come to the conclusion that if I really take the time to consider the other person''s feelings and adjust accordingly, the same consideration comes back a lot more easily and without nearly as much frustration. I just make it very clear that I understand this by saying, "I understand the situation and the way you feel, and that is important to me. While I still feel a bit X about this, your happiness means a lot to me and I am willing to try and see it your way." And then I follow through with a sincere heart. 9 times out of 10, TGuy makes a concession as well.

I believe this is called "compromise" and "communication."

 

[Sha]

Date: 8/13/2007 2:03:39 PM
Author: simplysplendid

Date: 8/13/2007 9:45:47 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
guys please read my post above. I do not expect her to submit and frankly am VERY submissive myself. It also had nothing to do with my dating an asian...in fact there was a reason for that, and that was that I worked with some impovershed Laotian children in highschool that really just broke my heart all over the place and everytime I saw asians, male or female, it brought up all kinds of emotions and passions in me. Thus I ended up taking the initiative to talk to whoever I met that invoked those emotions and made alot of friends from other cultures. I in no way expect her to submit to me in anyway that I do not submit to her, I clean up dishes after we eat, though she insist on helping, I fold laundry, make her sit down and massage her, I wait for hours to pick her up from work just to ride home with her, I go out of my way to make sure that I work my schedule around hers, at whatever cost it may be to me, knowing that she is exhausted and appreicating her and her feelings, I take excellent care of her and in no way am demanding or oppresive of her. Her conerns almost always come first for me, but I am a human as well you know?.

However, she refused to tell the people at work about me when we first started dating, I accepted that, we went through a whole ordeal and we made it. Then after I proposed a week ago she suggested not telling the pepole at work and then said she couldn''t wear the ring at work, saying she wanted to keep the proposal a seceret. I got really pissed off, but didn''t yell and just told her how inappropriate I felt keeping it a seceret was, even for a little while, she agreed and decided she was too nervous about people at work, it turned out they were all a really great encouragement as I had known they would be from the many times I have met them , and then I decided that I really wanted her to wear the ring to, for a variety of reasons. It means A WHOLE LOT to me and I don''t see why my wanting her to do one thing for me that means a whole lot to me would inspire all of these opinions that I am trying to get a ''submissive'' woman. it is the farthest thing from the truth. I have made MANY sacrifices for her, many of them based on cultural demands and I do not regret any of them, sometimes they are more difficult than others and every now and then I am very passionate about one thing or another and in many of those occasions she respects my opinions and othertimes I simply have to accept it regardless of my feelings. But I am not some male cheovenist pig or however you spell it and I am in no way taking advantag eof her, pressuring her, forcing her to do anything, being cruel, bossy or anything else, that above post really offended me, so please don''t start making statements like that please, it is as far from the truth as is possible and you have grossly missunderstood me-my fault or not-if that is what you are thinking.

WHSR, I think you need to take charge of your emotions first. Please eliminate that idea that all Asians that you meet are like the Laotian children. There are both developed and developing countries in Asia as do other continents. The emotions you feel when you meet all Asians male or female, just like your example of the Chinese friend keeping her ring in the closet, is unnecessary. The words that you have chosen to use have revealed that you are stereotyping.

You mentioned you were only joking, but please reread your own post, especially the first clarification post where you mentioned about taking control. You sounded like you really meant it. You have mentioned several times that you did not yell even though you were unhappy with the situation -- you came across to me that you either take a passive-agressive approach or you yell and I think either way is not the right way to communicate with your other half. From what I hear, I don''t think your fiancee lied to you. She may be telling you what you wanted to hear to get you off her back because you have not been listening. I agree with the others, you have not addressed some of the points they raised.

Ditto about the stereotyping. Your experience with a group of impoverished Laotian children should not influence your feelings about all Asians you meet... since every person and cultural group is different.

Anyway, I think you made a great effort to explain yourself in these last couple posts and I, for one, appreciate the clarifications. I guess this is just a matter that you feel strongly about and are having difficulty dealing with. You do sound like a caring fiance. I still feel, though, that you should compromise on having your fiancee wear the ring in social situations only, until you get to the U.S. Yes, it does suck since you saved a lot for it and would like to see her proudly wear that symbol of committment. But it doesn''t seem to be worth the trouble in light of the cultural aspects raised here.

Best wishes

,

 

[Sparkster]

Date: 8/11/2007 1:51:16 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
oh they have rings for engagements....thats not the issue. I was def. expected to buy one, especially with those her age (if she were 40-50 I might be able to get away with not diong it, but def not at 25) though its quite a bit larger than I needed to get which is fine with me. Its just that they dont really wear them....

for instance, I have a chinese friend who recently got married. though her husband has completed his Doctorates in America he was unable to get a job in South carolina due to the timing of his graduation in correspondence with applications to live in america. thus he is living her illegally making 4-5 dollars an hour under the table and cant work full time, yet she still made him go to tif. and buy her a 2,500 dollar Ering that she went on to say was too small and she cant keep it, but she has to have one for now. What does she do with it? she leaves it in her closet! she hasnt worn it a single day!

anyway, my fiance wears it when she gets out of work and at home and she will wear it when she is shopping, etc, but not when she is working, which is the bulk of her time in life these days.

While one part of me understands it, the fact is I wont accept it at this point. Not 4 days after the proposal anyway. so its just a matter of trying to figure out how to talk about it without causing a fight, which I am afraid is going to be impossible.

Also in the future we will live in America but thats a good year to year and half, where I am positive she will wear it all the time. It probably shouldnt be as big a deal as I am making it out to be, but it is to me. so we will see what happens...but I nobody here to talk to so instead of going out to continue hunting for a jeweler familiar with palladium, as I had intended　（I cam across an Indian jeweler a while back and I remember he had a good bit of bench material in the back, so I am hoping he can do it), I paid for the media cafe so I could post here, since im a little angry

What''s this got to ''do with the price of milk?" Frankly, Chinese and Japanese culture are completely different so what your Chinese friend does due to cultural belief has nothing to do with your Japanese fiance. It''s like saying Greek culture is the same as Italian culture because they are both european.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 8/11/2007 12:52:02 AM
Author:WorkingHardforSmallRewards

For two reasons this is unacceptable to me. One is that it is my engagment ring to her, I expect her to wear it during the day, and that is all there is to it.

I have put alot of time and thought into picking a very beautiful ring that will make her oblige what I know of her taste and preferences--and I believe I did just that. So I will be damned if, after all of that work and sacrifice, it is just sitting in some locker for 13 hours a day.

However, while I am very willing to understand cultural differences, and it does seem to be the general cultural practice here in Japan not to wear Erings while working, I am afraid that this time in this regard she is simply going to have to conform to me and my beliefs and practices. Anybody have any idea how I am going to convince her to do this without causing a serious problem between us and being mean?

and If you think I am in the wrong then feel free to share it, but I am afraid I wont be taking your advice

I think you are wrong.

If you love someone, the worst thing you can do is try and control them. Let them be free to make their own choices, and your willingness to not oppress them with your own opinions will be returned in spades. They will love you for allowing them to be free. Force them to accept your opinions and you will eventually kill their spirit and drive them away.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/13/2007 8:00:19 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
If you love someone, the worst thing you can do is try and control them. Let them be free to make their own choices, and your willingness to not oppress them with your own opinions will be returned in spades. They will love you for allowing them to be free. Force them to accept your opinions and you will eventually kill their spirit and drive them away.

Well said.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Thanks for the bday cakes, they sure do look delicious! unfortunately (for the 4th year in a row now) there was no real bday celebration for me

August 13th is the day that the ancestors come back for 3 days, so we spent the day at grave sites and visiting family etc, which is nice too, but you know, not a birthday party

but thats ok.

now on topic

Remember, I am not possibly putting her work environment at risk as I am not actually pressuring HER to do anything that she doesn't want, I am just trying to get her to understand my feelings and allowing her to make the decision herself. Nor would she stand for it if she felt I was presuming to do something to put those things at risk, she would probably give me a good kick in the stomach. Remember I was just venting at first, and then working on plans that might work online while trying to deal with a wide variety of comments and assumptions. I am certainly not "putting her job at risk" or "risking her work environment." I simply am not going to say anything to her, as I have said, that would make her feel forced to do something I want, and if, as I suspect, things don't happen the way that I had originally hoped I will still be quite happy. I have also told her that I understand her point of view, and I wouldn't want to cause her to have negative feelings.

but, at work they are all aware of the engagement, her family, grandparents and everyone else are as well. Nobody has made fun of her and they are all very excited for her, from what she tells me everybody has also complimented her ring numerous times, and believe if there was anything negative happening she would let me know (note that she made the decision to go showing it off to them by herself, just didn't wear it while working because she felt cultural pressure--despite no one actually saying anything to make her feel that way nor in her case there being any actual reason to be worried--just a general idea she was raised with), in fact I am friends with most of her co-workers.

I also get along EXTREMELY well with all of her family , distant relatives included, I have a bit of a shogi/chess and arm wrestling competition going on with one of her great uncles that I met at a memorial for her grandfather, very memorable times. Just yesterday I had a pretty surprising experience when she told her grandmother and aunt we were engaged and everybody in the room started crying and talking about the plans and got really excited congratulating me and some thanking me.

Wherein there are cultural requirements of me I oblige and I understand what is expected of me, it very rarely much of an issue at all--sometimes at the movies it can be a problem, when I don't want to sit through the credits or I laugh pretty loud and whisper something to her, but she is well aware of who I am and for the record we end up sitting through the credits every time.

_______________

Also, I went ahead and showed this thread to my fiance, she thought it was really funny and said that it was my own fault for using poor word choices so I can't blame anyone else (she noticed me getting a bit upset while online). She also thought the idea that I was bossy was really funny, because if anything she is the bossy one, and then she told me to go get her some ocha.

it isn't nearly as serious a situation in reality as it has been portrayed as online

(Though if I had said anything to her at first it might have been) and I will make sure to never post anything when I am feeling really angry and frustrated on here again

Some of the real heavy posts I did skim through and when I get a good chance I will read through them and see what good advice I can extract--alot of it is really irrelevant to the reality of our situation though, and so it's somewhat tiresome to do. The nature of online advice I suppose.
____________________

And now I am going to get a bit angry and serious so please excuse me. Finally, some of you need to pay more attention when you read,

I didn't say that she was like the children I worked with I said that that was the reason that I took the initiative to introduce myself in the first place--that and a failed relationship with a Vietnamese girl that I had at the same time in high school.

It was suggested that the reason I was dating and am engaged to a Japanese person was because they are more "submissive" and that made me infuriated. The fact is that if I treated my fiance like I wanted her to be "submissive" she would kick me in the balls and break up with me, probably throwing me out of a window first (well, trying, I am a bit too heavy for her to lift).

Thus, I was saying that there was in fact a particular reason why I am with an asian person, and it was not that I wanted someone who was "submissive". A fair bit of time ago, when I was a good bit younger, I had my first introduction to a very unique culture. I really fell in love with those that I was interacting with. Therefore, when I headed out to college and I saw people that invoked those time of emotions, being a human that was usually based on appearance of course, then I took the initiative to talk to them. While in line or at the cafeteria I said hi, When I got the opportunity I asked if they had any plans and made friends in random places (something I didn't normally do) and so it was that I ended up with entirely international friends, and a Japanese girlfriend. She is not "like" the little children I mentioned but it is a fact that because of them I was inspired to make friends with internationals when I went to college, and it was directly connected with me meeting my fiance.

NOT THAT SHE IS LIKE THEM but that THAT WAS THE REASON that we met and NOT that I was looking for some "submissive asian woman", and at any rate that idea of asian women being particularly submissive simply is not inline with reality. Perhaps a long time there may have been some substantial truth to it--as there was in England and America as well--but the youth of today are certainly not going to take that kind of treatment from anyone, certainly not there husbands, and not anymore than any of you. At this point I believe that respect and equal treatment is becoming a World-wide understanding, and it has certainly taken hold in Japan, though I am sure there are exceptions to that, she is certainly not one of them, so please don't presume to insult my fiance and suggest she cant take care of herself ok?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Okey dokey.

 

[simplysplendid]

Date: 8/13/2007 9:28:02 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Thanks for the bday cakes, they sure do look delicious! unfortunately (for the 4th year in a row now) there was no real bday celebration for me

August 13th is the day that the ancestors come back for 3 days, so we spent the day at grave sites and visiting family etc, which is nice too, but you know, not a birthday party

but thats ok.

now on topic

Remember, I am not possibly putting her work environment at risk as I am not actually pressuring HER to do anything that she doesn''t want, I am just trying to get her to understand my feelings and allowing her to make the decision herself. Nor would she stand for it if she felt I was presuming to do something to put those things at risk, she would probably give me a good kick in the stomach. Remember I was just venting at first, and then working on plans that might work online while trying to deal with a wide variety of comments and assumptions. I am certainly not ''putting her job at risk'' or ''risking her work environment.'' I simply am not going to say anything to her, as I have said, that would make her feel forced to do something I want, and if, as I suspect, things don''t happen the way that I had originally hoped I will still be quite happy. I have also told her that I understand her point of view, and I wouldn''t want to cause her to have negative feelings.

but, at work they are all aware of the engagement, her family, grandparents and everyone else are as well. Nobody has made fun of her and they are all very excited for her, from what she tells me everybody has also complimented her ring numerous times, and believe if there was anything negative happening she would let me know (note that she made the decision to go showing it off to them by herself, just didn''t wear it while working because she felt cultural pressure--despite no one actually saying anything to make her feel that way nor in her case there being any actual reason to be worried--just a general idea she was raised with), in fact I am friends with most of her co-workers.

I also get along EXTREMELY well with all of her family , distant relatives included, I have a bit of a shogi/chess and arm wrestling competition going on with one of her great uncles that I met at a memorial for her grandfather, very memorable times. Just yesterday I had a pretty surprising experience when she told her grandmother and aunt we were engaged and everybody in the room started crying and talking about the plans and got really excited congratulating me and some thanking me.

Wherein there are cultural requirements of me I oblige and I understand what is expected of me, it very rarely much of an issue at all--sometimes at the movies it can be a problem, when I don''t want to sit through the credits or I laugh pretty loud and whisper something to her, but she is well aware of who I am and for the record we end up sitting through the credits every time.

_______________

Also, I went ahead and showed this thread to my fiance, she thought it was really funny and said that it was my own fault for using poor word choices so I can''t blame anyone else (she noticed me getting a bit upset while online). She also thought the idea that I was bossy was really funny, because if anything she is the bossy one, and then she told me to go get her some ocha.

it isn''t nearly as serious a situation in reality as it has been portrayed as online

(Though if I had said anything to her at first it might have been) and I will make sure to never post anything when I am feeling really angry and frustrated on here again

Some of the real heavy posts I did skim through and when I get a good chance I will read through them and see what good advice I can extract--alot of it is really irrelevant to the reality of our situation though, and so it''s somewhat tiresome to do. The nature of online advice I suppose.
____________________

And now I am going to get a bit angry and serious so please excuse me. Finally, some of you need to pay more attention when you read,

I didn''t say that she was like the children I worked with I said that that was the reason that I took the initiative to introduce myself in the first place--that and a failed relationship with a Vietnamese girl that I had at the same time in high school.

It was suggested that the reason I was dating and am engaged to a Japanese person was because they are more ''submissive'' and that made me infuriated. The fact is that if I treated my fiance like I wanted her to be ''submissive'' she would kick me in the balls and break up with me, probably throwing me out of a window first (well, trying, I am a bit too heavy for her to lift).

Thus, I was saying that there was in fact a particular reason why I am with an asian person, and it was not that I wanted someone who was ''submissive''. A fair bit of time ago, when I was a good bit younger, I had my first introduction to a very unique culture. I really fell in love with those that I was interacting with. Therefore, when I headed out to college and I saw people that invoked those time of emotions, being a human that was usually based on appearance of course, then I took the initiative to talk to them. While in line or at the cafeteria I said hi, When I got the opportunity I asked if they had any plans and made friends in random places (something I didn''t normally do) and so it was that I ended up with entirely international friends, and a Japanese girlfriend. She is not ''like'' the little children I mentioned but it is a fact that because of them I was inspired to make friends with internationals when I went to college, and it was directly connected with me meeting my fiance.

NOT THAT SHE IS LIKE THEM but that THAT WAS THE REASON that we met and NOT that I was looking for some ''submissive asian woman'', and at any rate that idea of asian women being particularly submissive simply is not inline with reality. Perhaps a long time there may have been some substantial truth to it--as there was in England and America as well--but the youth of today are certainly not going to take that kind of treatment from anyone, certainly not there husbands, and not anymore than any of you. At this point I believe that respect and equal treatment is becoming a World-wide understanding, and it has certainly taken hold in Japan, though I am sure there are exceptions to that, she is certainly not one of them, so please don''t presume to insult my fiance and suggest she cant take care of herself ok?

WHSR, I don''t think we have stereotyped your fiancee and we have not suggested that she is the submissive type of women and that you are looking for a submissive Asian woman. The fact that she is refusing to wear the engagement ring is a good clue that she has a mind of her own. A number of posters here including myself have said that YOU have stereotyped Asians in your posts (with your Chinese friend and Laotian children examples).

This thread can go on and on and on as I think you are just not getting the point or you are practising selective listening (reading). There has also been quite a few clarifications or modifications since your first post about what you are really trying to say. Perhaps you should take the advice of the others to undergo cross cultural marital counselling and at the same time polish up your written English, then you would not have to make so many clarifications in future posts.

Best of luck in your relationship with your fiancee. You will need lots of it if you still do not improve your listening skills.

 

[cutes814]

happy birthday WH!!

happy birthday risingsun!!

it''s actually my bday tomorrow too! yay leos!!!


WH, it''s easy to misunderstand someone thru cyber space, so don''t take everything so seriously. ppl get shaken up and reply when upset or when their emotions are high and things can be escalated or conclusions can be made rather quickly. so don''t worry about it.

for some reason i understood you from your original post. i didn''t feel like you were trying to "control" your fiance, but just felt that you were upset and hurt so you were looking to vent on ps. your follow up posts explaining everything with the "manipulation" scheme was hilarious to me. when you said you were going to "milk" it for all you got, i read that you got over the whole not wearing the ring at work thing, correct? you were okay with it enough to make a joke about it.

all in all, it seems like once the emotions died down, everything worked out with your fiance. that''s the important thing. oh, btw, i applaud you for taking the time to come on here and vent instead of venting at her, then things would''ve gotten really ugly. when two people are upset, it''s easy to say stuff you might regret later. so good job for recognizing it and taking a step back to relax.