Bowie and rape culture

[Niel]

So I saw this article today.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/2705425/david-bowie-was-not-a-rapist-but-forcing-your-narrative-on-his-victim-makes-you-one/#8i4kxquqywAb6uSg.99

A few things stuck out to me including the quote

You can debate whether or not what happened was rape

And that bowie wasn't a

creepy old man

I was upset by their suggestion that statutory rape isn't "rape rape". I found it ignorant that the reader believes statutory rape isn't rape if the victim isn't traumatised. As someone who has personally experienced statutory rape, I know that each rape comes with its own level of trauma. But consent plays no bearing on stat rape. Ones opinion on how " lucky" she was to get to loose her virginity to a rock star doesn't change the fact he used his status to take advantage of a minor.

Now, I guess mostly I'm ranting, but I just found it interesting that this article not only defends Bowie, but takes an accusatory stance to anyone willing to call Bowie a rapist for his stat rape of a 15 year old. I take exception to the thought that rape laws only apply when you're uncomfortable with how the interaction went down.

 

[LLJsmom]

Statutory rape is still RAPE. Enough said.

 

[Jambalaya]

I find it repugnant that he had sex with a 15-year-old. She was a child, and she was vulnerable. I think the way she describes it demonstrates that she may have some issues. He must have been aware of how young and innocent she was, and that it was her first time, and she says he "had me over a table" and calls that experience of first sex "beautiful." She then goes on to display signs of grandiosity which is found is some personality disorders: "You need to understand that my life has never been normal. I have always been special. I always felt like the universe was taking care of me.”

Apparently this girl slept with a lot of stars back then, which basically adds up to a lot of older men taking advantage of a young girl with issues, and apparently no parents to care where she was and what she was up to. The very language she uses in the link that Niel posted shows that she thinks of herself as a thing to be used by men.

But then, I don't think much of many "stars." I think many of them are stars because they have planet-size egos and terrible personality problems. Not all, of course, but many of these people have been caught in criminal activity. Plus the fact that drugs, affairs, multiple divorces, and children left with multiple sets of step-parents is just a normal Monday in LaLa Land.

I never took much notice of the likes of Bowie but the fact that he engaged in unsavory actions is no surprise to me at all. I don't have much respect for "celebrity" culture or the people who create it and perpetuate it.

 

[Niel]

Statutory rape is still RAPE. Enough said.

Even if the rapist is likeable......

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Tyga and Kylie...was anyone screaming rape? Not really. I may not personally approve of it, but I don't consider consensual sex before age 18 rape unless SHE calls it rape.

 

[Niel]

Tyga and Kylie...was anyone screaming rape? Not really. I may not personally approve of it, but I don't consider consensual sex before age 18 rape unless SHE calls it rape.

Really??
I'm very surprised by that. The rule is set in place to protect individuals who may not understand fully the act of consensual sex. you may not find it as morally reprehensible, but do you really deny the legal definition of stat rape?

I don't know, rape is rape is rape I guess is how I feel.

 

[MishB]

Lori Mattix's story with regards to Bowie has been refuted due to the timeline - apparently the night this supposedly happened was when she was definitely with Jimmy Page.

Also Sable Starr's version of that night is very different to Lori Mattix's - Sable Starr was conveniently dead when Lori Mattix came forward to talk about what supposedly happened between her and David Bowie.

 

[MollyMalone]

* * *I think the way she describes it demonstrates that she may have some issues. He must have been aware of how young and innocent she was, and that it was her first time, and she says he "had me over a table" and calls that experience of first sex "beautiful." * * * .

If you watch the video of the 2010 VHI "documentary" (that's what it was called at the time, but the film is not as cerebral as you may expect a documentary to be), Let's Spend the Night Together -- starting at 11:44 minutes in -- you'll hear the warmth & great fondness in Ms. Mattix's voice and see her relaxed demeanor as she describes it:

"David opens the door, and he is wearing this gorgeous, beautiful kimono, with that pale skin and that hair. And he says [imitating polite manner, with British accent] "Lori, could you please come with me?" And he takes me into the bathroom, and he's got a bath drawn, and he drops the kimono off and gets into the bathtub, [she chuckles] and says, " Can you wash my back?" [peals of laughter]

It was just so fabulous, he was verrry gentle with me, knowing that it was my first time. And then he started to massage me, put me n the bath, relaxed me, and he then took me out and put a robe on me, and laid me on the bed... and the rest is history [fond smile]"

So this sounds a lot more relaxed and tender than any "first time" experience with their boyfriend I heard of from my high school classmates.

ETA: this post is not to suggest I'd be giving my son a high-five if I learned he had bedded a 15-year-old.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

My 15 year old daughters also wouldn't have been hanging out after a concert trying to get picked up by the band (because we would have been there to pick our daughters up). So I think some responsibility lies with the girl (and her parents) in those consensual situations.

I just looked up age of consent and it is really interesting. Most states are 16-17 now, but get this....it was 10-12 in the 1800's!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/statutory-rape-laws-in-the-u-s/

 

[Jambalaya]

* * *I think the way she describes it demonstrates that she may have some issues. He must have been aware of how young and innocent she was, and that it was her first time, and she says he "had me over a table" and calls that experience of first sex "beautiful." * * * .

If you watch the video of the 2010 VHI "documentary" (that's what it was called at the time, but the film is not as cerebral as you may expect a documentary to be), Let's Spend the Night Together -- starting at 11:44 minutes in -- you'll hear the warmth & great fondness in Ms. Mattix's voice and see her relaxed demeanor as she describes it:

"David opens the door, and he is wearing this gorgeous, beautiful kimono, with that pale skin and that hair. And he says [imitating polite manner, with British accent] "Lori, could you please come with me?" And he takes me into the bathroom, and he's got a bath drawn, and he drops the kimono off and gets into the bathtub, [she chuckles] and says, " Can you wash my back?" [peals of laughter]

It was just so fabulous, he was verrry gentle with me, knowing that it was my first time. And then he started to massage me, put me n the bath, relaxed me, and he then took me out and put a robe on me, and laid me on the bed... and the rest is history [fond smile]"

So this sounds a lot more relaxed and tender than any "first time" experience with their boyfriend I heard of from my high school classmates.

ETA: this post is not to suggest I'd be giving my son a high-five if I learned he had bedded a 15-year-old.

The part I quoted is from Niel's link where she says her first time ever was with him, over a table. Lovely.

 

[Jambalaya]

The law exists for a reason. That age-of-consent bar is an acknowledgement that someone of fifteen is often too young to deal with the emotional consequences of sex even if they say yes, not to mention the physical consequences if the girl gets pregnant; that they are vulnerable to seduction; and to protect young girls are far as possible from the pressure to have sex; and to also protect young boys from predatory women. (It happens: every so often there is a story about a female teacher in her thirties sleeping with an underage student. There was one just last week.)

OK, you can get some very mature, precocious fifteen-year-olds, but that's not the norm.

Fifteen is very young, still a child in many ways, and a child in the eyes of the law.

Apparently Bowie was 25 when he slept with the fifteen-year-old. Just think how young 15 is. What? Women aged 18-25 weren't young enough for him? While I don't think that it's the same as a violent, forced stranger rape, him sleeping with an underage child speaks very, very badly of him. I wonder how he would have felt about a man sleeping with HIS fifteen-year-old daughter. I'm sorry, but I think the whole thing's disgusting in my opinion. Fifteen-year-old girls are very young and should be doing their schoolwork and hanging posters of ponies on their walls, and be allowed to finish out their childhood un-seduced by older men. Hence the law.

Or if not hanging posters of ponies on their walls, at least making out with boys their own age.

Interestingly, a former female friend of mine seduced a fifteen-year-old boy when she was about 26. I just mentioned it in my thread about forgiveness. I'm having trouble remembering exactly how old she was when she did it, but she was 25 at the youngest, 30 at the oldest. It was years ago and she didn't say much at the time, just that she had known this boy for a while via ice hockey, and she went back to his house and they slept together. She said his mother didn't know but must have suspected something because the mother hated her. (No kidding.) It's only with the perspective of years that I Irealize how gross and weird her actions were. Neither me nor any of my other friends would have dreamed in a million years of sleeping with a young underage boy like that when we were 25-30. The woman who did this turned out to create a history of "acting out sexually" as my therapist put it, and has some severe problems. I don't think that it's normal for grown-ups who are well into adulthood to sleep with fifteen-year-old children.

JMO.

 

[LLJsmom]

The law exists for a reason. That age-of-consent bar is an acknowledgement that someone of fifteen is often too young to deal with the emotional consequences of sex even if they say yes, not to mention the physical consequences if the girl gets pregnant; that they are vulnerable to seduction; and to protect young girls are far as possible from the pressure to have sex; and to also protect young boys from predatory women. (It happens: every so often there is a story about a female teacher in her thirties sleeping with an underage student. There was one just last week.)

Fifteen is very young, still a child in many ways, and a child in the eyes of the law.

Thank you so much Jambalaya. Exactly. I didn't know how to say it clearly or accurately but this is exactly it. There are long term ramifications to being sexually active at such a young age, many of which the girls are too young to be expected to know or understand at the time. This law attempts to prevent that. True, many years ago females were having children at much younger ages, but does that necessarily mean that was a better situation? It was what was required for survival and demanded of society at that time, which would not be applicable now, thank goodness.

 

[Niel]

My 15 year old daughters also wouldn't have been hanging out after a concert trying to get picked up by the band (because we would have been there to pick our daughters up). So I think some responsibility lies with the girl (and her parents) in those consensual situations.

I just looked up age of consent and it is really interesting. Most states are 16-17 now, but get this....it was 10-12 in the 1800's!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/01/statutory-rape-laws-in-the-u-s/

I'm not going to blame the victim or the victims parents. I'm going to blame the predator that used his status to influence a minor.

As for the age of consent, that is a shame that it used to be that low. You used to have no recourse if you where raped by your husband, either. Glad as society progressed we are held to a higher standard.

 

[House Cat]

When I was 17, I had a 23-year-old boyfriend. I wasn't a "normal" kid in the sense that I wasn't living at home. People had always told me I was mature for my age. Even still, many concerned adults, mostly teachers and my best friend's parents (whom I lived with) told me this arrangement was not ok and that something HAD to be wrong with this guy. In my very young mind, everything seemed fine. If I am being completely honest, I felt like I was a cool girl for having an older boyfriend. I eventually moved in with him while I was still in high school.

That relationship was one of the worst of my life.

He became abusive but I was naive and didn't know any better. I looked up to him and trusted him to know how this relationship thing worked. I believed most anything he said. Mostly, I developed a really unhealthy attachment to this young man. In the end, he ended up doing extremely violent harm to me, the kind that really would have landed him in prison, but because he was older he manipulated me into thinking that I was at fault, so I never contacted the police.

So cliche and yet, so true. The truth is, at 17/18 years old, I was not prepared to deal with the level of manipulation that a grown adult could lay on me. I was a kid, he was not.

When I turned 23 I reflected upon the idea of dating a 17 year old boy. That idea repulsed me. At 23 years old, a 17 year old BOY seemed like a child to me. I finally understood what everyone was saying to me all those years ago about how there must have been something very wrong with my 23 year old boyfriend. There really was! I learned it first hand with his abusive ways, but it took another six years to realize the full extent of his issues. There is a huge difference between a 23 year old and a 17 year old. It is the difference between an adult and a child. It was in my case anyway.

I believe the stat. laws are appropriate and needed. Even when there is consent, the individual might not have any idea what he/she is getting herself into.

 

[JaneSmith]

Rape culture is alive and well in this thread. So far we have had "bitches be lying" and "she was asking for it".

 

[partgypsy]

Rape is rape, but there are different kinds of rape. For example in CA David Bowie would be guilty of statutory rape, which can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony. Then there is forcible rape, which is a felony. Additional charges may apply depending on violence. I think that's what the author was trying to say, in saying it wasn't "rape rape". There are legal distinctions for different kinds of rape. I don't see why that is a problem. I don't excuse what David Bowie did (it was wrong) but I would also think that it came up in court and I was the judge, that the circumstances would be weighed in what kind of judgement was made. In her case she chose not to pursue any kind of legal or civil action, and as the other party is dead, it seems like muckraking. We obviously wouldn't be this interested in the details if it wasn't a celebrity being discussed.

In case this comes off as being an apologist for David Bowie, it's not. I respect him as an artist, but it doesn't condone his behavior. I don't see why people who love him as an artist need to find a way to excuse his actions. They are what they are.

 

[Jambalaya]

Rape culture is alive and well in this thread. So far we have had "bitches be lying" and "she was asking for it".

It is? We have?

 

[Niel]

Rape is rape, but there are different kinds of rape. For example in CA David Bowie would be guilty of statutory rape, which can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony. Then there is forcible rape, which is a felony. Additional charges may apply depending on violence. I think that's what the author was trying to say, in saying it wasn't "rape rape". There are legal distinctions for different kinds of rape. I don't see why that is a problem. I don't excuse what David Bowie did (it was wrong) but I would also think that it came up in court and I was the judge, that the circumstances would be weighed in what kind of judgement was made. In her case she chose not to pursue any kind of legal or civil action, and as the other party is dead, it seems like muckraking. We obviously wouldn't be this interested in the details if it wasn't a celebrity being discussed.

In case this comes off as being an apologist for David Bowie, it's not. I respect him as an artist, but it doesn't condone his behavior. I don't see why people who love him as an artist need to find a way to excuse his actions. They are what they are.

I'm sorry I didn't make it extremely clear. I'm in agreement that there are different kinds of rape. What I take exception to is the term " rape rape". It implies that in some instances it isn't rape. All of them are rape. Circumstances may determine the severity of punishment, obviously.

 

[partgypsy]

And I personally don't see this as an example of "rape culture". I see this as an example of people trying to excuse a celebrity's or idol's behavior, when it doesn't jive with the rest of the image that person has. For example if a similar thing happened now it would be much more likely to lead to procecution and there would be more outrage. I think it more has to do with the feeling that celebrities or artists are special and maybe shouldn't be held to the same rules. And in most of life they aren't.

I am a David Bowie fan, but there are definitely things that he did, that doesn't go along with the rest of his "image" and are cause for pause. I am sure there are a number of things that he regrets when young. Apparently there is an entire year of his life he doesn't remember (drug use). However, reducing the entirety of his life to the term "rapist" also seems inaccurate, as well as not in line with our legal system of innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Niel]

And I personally don't see this as an example of "rape culture". I see this as an example of people trying to excuse a celebrity's or idol's behavior, when it doesn't jive with the rest of the image that person has. For example if a similar thing happened now it would be much more likely to lead to procecution and there would be more outrage. I think it more has to do with the feeling that celebrities or artists are special and maybe shouldn't be held to the same rules. And in most of life they aren't.

I am a David Bowie fan, but there are definitely things that he did, that doesn't go along with the rest of his "image" and are cause for pause. I am sure there are a number of things that he regrets when young. Apparently there is an entire year of his life he doesn't remember (drug use). However, reducing the entirety of his life to the term "rapist" also seems inaccurate, as well as not in line with our legal system of innocent until proven guilty.

No one is reducing him down to a single term.... You can be other things, positive things, and still be a rapist. But making excuses for someone to avoid calling him the term is rape culture

 

[Andelain]

Rape culture is alive and well in this thread. So far we have had "bitches be lying" and "she was asking for it".

I don't normally take this view, but when the person waits all these years for the other person to die before they claim it happened, I do have some doubt. Not saying Bowie didn't do it, but I wouldn't bet any money either way. BTW, what was the age of consent when and where it allegedly happened?

 

[arkieb1]

I don't think an adult having sex with a minor is acceptable but I think we are all arguing about the different forms of sexual exploitation widely put under the same definition of rape. Is consensual sex between a 15 year old boy and a 15 year old girl or a 15 year old boy and a 13 year old girl rape if they both agreed and then later one said no they really didn't?

The fact the girl obviously sort out a celebrity (or as she describes seemed to be happy to sleep with celebrities) to place herself in that position has to suggest some level of her own bad judgement was involved, and I agree with the poster that said where were her parents and why were they not paying more attention to her behaviour. Should older men or men in generally take advantage of young, stupid, drunk or poor women and in some cases to boys as well? No, but the reality it is sadly, it happens all the time. The article doesn't make me think there is an acceptance of a culture of rape at all more of an acceptance of sexual exploitation and predatory behaviour of older men who are celebrities or rich and powerful and able to get away with their behaviour because of their societal positions.