pretty upset

[nytemist]

I feel like DH has pulled a bait and switch on me. Ok, background first. This may be long.

Long ago, when DH and I were in the first couple of years of dating, we had the talks about what we would like to do in life, where we would like to travel to and all that. I never been shy about the fact that since I grew up in Boston, ever since my late teens/early 20s I''ve always wanted to leave. Not that Mass isn''t pretty, but I feel like I have outgrown it. Plus I love going new places and there is so much I want to see (though I hate flying to get there). He too talked about how he would like to do more traveling when we can afford it. This brought about the topic of moving someday. He knew my first love and fantasy to move to is New York. If, depending on working and money saved, we can''t move there, Montreal would be a good, affordable choice. He agreed. Said he could see himself living in NYC. Not as sure about Montreal because of the bilingual situation.

Fast forward to a few months ago. He tells me that he had been thinking about the moving topic and doesn''t think he wants to move to Montreal. Said the idea of moving to another country and having to learn a new language was too much for him and scared him too much. He also said the idea of changes do this to him. I said everyone is scared when making a huge decision, some a lot more than others. The idea scares me, but the excitement of being in a new place outweighs it for me. It hurt to hear it, but I was glad he opened up about it and said well, maybe there are other places to consider.

Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine on the phone. She had just gotten back from a few days in NYC. We were chatting about the goings on there, since I haven''t been to NYC since June (that''s a long time for me, major withdrawal) She told me she heard about some new townhouses/condos that the city wants to make more affordable by late 2008-early 2009. I said great, thanks for the info. I then tell this to DH and he gives me a blank stare and says ''ok.''. Few minutes later he says- ''I don''t know about moving anymore. This place isn''t bad, it''s decent. Maybe we should stay here a few more years.The cats are happy.'' I coudn''t speak at first. I asked so all the times you said to me you were fine with going someplace else by next year, you were lying to me? He said no, just realizes he''s fine where he is. I aske so where does that leave me? He didn''t answer.

Yes, we''ve had our issues in the past, especially about cleaning (it shows, anything not my little corners of the condo are a mess) I given up that battle. This is not something I saw coming at all, he has said on more than one occasion that he wants to move to NYC. Now it seems that all those dreams are supposed to just die. I mean, I feel duped. I was good and didn''t yell but I asked him if you really didn''t want to make any changes in your life, make room for me in it or were serious about moving, why marry someone like me who has goals and dreams for their future? We talked about that life we wanted long before we got married, taking on new adventures when we could and you seemed happy about it. Now you want to make this big change after the fact? I was so angry I asked to please not talk to me the rest of the evening. I''m here at work feeling like I want to throw things. I feel lied to. I understand that marriage takes work, communication. We have been talking. Things were actually better, we laughed more and the tension was gone. Then I get hit over the head with this? It must be me, thinking he should have respected me enough to discuss his changing feelings first rather than just ''hey I''m not moving'' and that''s that? Help me understand. I''m back to suare one trying to figure out what to do now. All of you have great advice, help me get what''s going on.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

It sounds like you and DH need to have a heart to heart about where you are and ultimately where you want to be. Would moving to NYC make him unhappy even though it makes you happy? Is it just that he doesn''t want to go to the trouble of moving to a new city or does he really LOVE living in the Boston area? I understand his hesitation about Montreal/Canada, but honestly, the bilingual aspect of life up there isn''t a huge part. There are plenty of English Quebec''rs just as there are French Quebec''rs. I know many many people from Montreal and it''s a fabulous city, but like I said, I can see how he might be hesitant. Life in Canada IS different than life in the States. Not necessarily in a bad way though. What about moving to Providence? It''s near Boston, but doesn''t feel like Boston at all. RI has it''s own culture and idiosyncracies (sp?).

I know it''s heard not to take things like this personally, but try to get to the bottom of his change of heart.

Good luck!

 

[TravelingGal]

Hi Nytemist! (I still pronounce your user name wrong in my brain...)

A few months ago you started a topic and I posted a reply. Since you never came back to that thread, I'll repost it here since I think it still applies...

-----

Nytemist, I feel for you, I really do.

Even though I've been a member here since late 2004 (and lurking a bit before that). I never really knew your story before you got engaged. So a couple of nights ago I did what I rarely do...actually checked out someone's old posts.

And you know what? You don't need any of our advice...your story is all here on PS and you could realize a lot by rereading it.

In this thread where you were disappointed he didn't propose by year end where he promised, Aljdewey gives some insight, which in hindsight, has become quite the theme with you and your man....

"I think I personally would be at quite a crossroads here. I'd worry about what this says for the future. Would I want to attach my future to a person who wants but cannot bring himself to act? Is this going to be a life-pattern? How will I feel if, when we ARE a team, he doesn't work hard toward our common goals?"

You've always struck me as someone pretty interesting, intelligent, and original. Your story struck me in that I really felt empathy for you. Do you know when you got engaged, your reaction here on Pricescope was primarily joy at the thought of someone wanting to marry you and a bit of gleeful spite at the thought of proving your mother wrong that someone wouldn't want to marry a "fat girl?" Reading that made me a bit sad and I really wanted it to work out for you.

But I think not only was he not ready to get married (which I've believed all along) but maybe neither were you in the sense of really understanding what marriage was all about?

Just a thought.

----------

Your man is someone who has always wanted to do things (or wouldn't admit he didn't), but can't bring himself to do the deed without some serious pushing. I am so sorry you are upset. I have to say, I just see so many unhealthy things in your relationship...mostly that he doesn't make you a priority at all (even over his cats, as evidenced by when he didn't go to your family reunion because his cats were sick.) Marriage IS work, but it seems you are up against a brick wall at times, and I am not sure I have any workable advice for you...

 

[janinegirly]

i think you need to compromise. i can see how you would feel duped when 2 of you talked about this and agreed on a vision, and then he changes his mind. it sounds like maybe he wasn''t completely honest with himself at the time and wanted to make you happy.

on the other hand, i can understand his hesitation. he''s happy where he is, and to move to places like NYC and Montreal is a big change if the person involved is not really interested in those locations. and it sounds like those 2 places were more your preferences than his.

so you have a fundamental issue of the 2 of you having different styles (he''s more a homebody perhaps and you''re more a free spirit?), but you guys are married and this isn''t the biggest thing in the world, so why not compromise? Maybe agree to move in 2-3 yrs (it''s not that long in the big picture) or both agree on a location that suits both styles. Also find out if he is willing to ever move or if he really wants to. You don''t want to move somewhere and have him be resentful. that would be a difficult thing to get past. On the other hand you don''t want to give up your dreams, so compromise seems like the best option here.
good luck!

 

[onedrop]

Nytemist: yours is a situation where compromise is definitely going to be key. There is going to be resentment on your part if you end up staying (unwillingly) in Boston, and resentment on his if you end up pushing him to move to NY. Perhaps janingirly offers the best solution: a compromise location. One where you both get what you want and where you can feel at ease in the decision. If asked, I would say that a "serious" conversation is really necessary now. Since this is a burning desire for you, you need to really sit down and map out what your future plans are and since he has reneged on the vision you two created before getting married, what is his new vision? More realistically, this is going to be a series of conversations rather than one big talk. Maybe visting NY together, with you pointing out the pros of living there, and helping to fit your husband into your dream of moving there will help. I know myself that it''s easier to make these big decisions when I actually SEE myself in the new place, be it a new job or new geographic location. Perhaps your husband is the same.

Whatever the case, try to be as open and understanding to his position and feelings as possible. If you are not receptive to truly undertanding his side is only going to narrow the lines of communication. Best wishes to you!

 

[nytemist]

Tgal- (congrats by the way) I know the road was a lot worse then. Many, many, many marathon conversations later things had improved. I didn''t mean it to sound like the reason to get engaged was to prove my mom wrong or to make him do something he wasn''t ready to. After the proposal he said he kept asking himself why did he wait so long? I asked him did he not want to do this, he assuered me he certainly did. I''ve asked him why did he want to marry me. He has told me that I bring out the person he wants to be; more outgoing, strong, confident. I know there is his pattern of not really being motivated. On the other side of that though, he gets upset at himself for procrastinating or admitting to being lazy sometimes, he says how much he needs to change that behavior. It gets better for while and then boom- back to his old way of thinking. I just neve knew how much of an issue it is with him until being with him every day. He left me a voicemail earlier, saying that what he said sounded real bad and wasn''t actually what he meant. he wants to get through this once we get home since now he thinks I will someday leave without him. I have no intention of doing that at all. I knew going into marriage is not taken lightly at all and may times I searched myself to make sure this was something I was ready to do. I don''t think my expectations were too high (outside of the same desire for a clean household), all I want is respect, love and for him to share the joy of planning a future. This marriage is what I think about all the time. I''m in this 100% and had his word that he is as well as of our last huge discussion a few months ago. But then something makes him go back into his shell.

Janinegirly- what else do I compromise? I''ve given up on having a neat place. This topic up hasn''t been brought up in a while. I''ve given up ever really feeling at home since all my things aren''t even moved in yet. Can''t decorate since the cats will destroy almost anything in their path. My life seems dictated by these cats. Also, I''m not forcing this issue- he himself has said we need to move. The condo is only 670 sqft. There isn''t enough room. What''s hard is that he''s told me a list of places he doesn''t want to go, but can''t say where he might want to. Any of the places I''ve mentioned he gives a reason why he can''t go there (will he find a job, will he find a vet, how much of a PITA to register his car) He doesn''t like the complex we live in, but he''s content to stay there. He knows I''m miserabel since I don''t have my car anymore, we aren''t near anything and the neighbors are crap. I don''t know what direction to try go in now. It seems my life is on hold due to his fear, when before we got married it was all well and good. I''m upset since the gameplan was switched and I wasn''t told.

 

[FireGoddess]

I kinda echo TG''s post a bit.

I recall you asking this question before. I also recall all the steps along the way...
-- him dragging his feet and not proposing for a looooooooong time
-- him not making ''room'' for you and not really wanting you to move in after engagement
-- point #2 still continuing after marriage, not to mention his priorities being a little out of line when it came to you versus other things

All of these have been red flags. It seems like he finally ''caved'' after a lot of prodding, but it seems like they happened begrudgingly and perhaps he wasn''t really ready along the way. Now you''re talking about uprooting everything he knows. That would take prodding like you''ve never imagined, and he may not begrudgingly oblige. He clearly isn''t ready to uproot his entire life, and you trying to force him to do so is only going to make him resent you. It''s not like your dreams and goals aren''t important...they ARE...but perhaps you''re forcing YOUR timeline on him??? Just a thought.

 

[nytemist]

Onedrop, we have been to NY together tons of times. At one point we were going there for a weekend or more almost every month.

 

[anchor31]

Nyt, I was thinking about you a few days ago. I''m sad to say that things in Qc are not so pretty right now in terms of immigration. One particular extremist religious group stirred up a lot of drama over a year ago (mostly in Montreal, but also in other regions) over what is acceptable in terms of accomodating immigrants in regards of their religious affiliations, language, etc. There''s this big investigating commission going on, and I''ve afraid that a lot of native Quebecers are becoming mistrustful, many to the point of racism. An opposition political party even went as far as recommending, just two weeks ago, that a French exam be submitted to all potential immigrants, in the name of protecting our language and culture (can I say

?! We''re in Canada here, a FREE country, HELLO?!)). Fortunately, it was met by cries of indignation and accusations of racism (which I believe it is). Still, it''s a scary time over here and I''m afraid that the whole thing is going to get people to become even more intolerant and isolated (which has been seen for so many years with the separatist movement and the "franco/anglo wars") than they already are. Mind you, this intolerance is more prominent in the regions outside of Montreal, but it''s still there. It seems so absurd to me that all this was caused by a small group of people with ridiculous ideas of grandeur, and now... Well, my point is, especially since your husband is reluctant to moving, moving here may not be a good idea right now. In other circumstances, I don''t believe Americans would have trouble living here at all. A friend of mine from Arizona has been here for 5.5 years and she loves it.

More to the point of your post... From what you''ve posted before and now this, I more and more get the feeling that your hubby kinda wished you''d forget about wanting to move. He''s obviously very afraid of change. "The cats are happy"? What about your happiness? The cats will be happy wherever you go, but you may not. So, like the others said, I think the only thing you can do is try to compromise, try to find a middle ground so the two of you can be content. It''s obvious that your hubby needs to realize that he''ll have to be more flexible if he wants this marriage to work... Because it can''t be all about his happiness.

Take care, nyt, and good luck.

 

[TravelingGal]

Thanks for the congrats nyt...

Aw hon...giving up the hope for a clean house is NOT compromise. That is you just giving in and giving up!

I''m glad he called, but I really do think he needs to pony up a bit on some things. I''m not sure if all was well and good before you got married (I remember a lot of your posts back then), but you seem committed to making it work so I hope things get better for you.

It just seems he''s content there...it''s *his* condo and I doubt he wants to sell it and move. Maybe you can form a plan that doesn''t seem so scarily permanent? Like rent it out so he has some sort of security blanket?

 

[Aloros]

First things first. Breathe a little, calm yourself down. It''s going to be tough to have a calm, rational conversation when you''re so upset. Maybe try focusing on something else for 30 or so minutes? I''ve always found that a little emotional distance for a bit of time helps me to come back to a problem refreshed and able to see new angles.

Sounds to me like he''s one of those people who is very resistant to change. He''s satisfied with where he is, so why move? Before, he only talked about moving in hypotheticals. I''m sure it''s become a lot more "real" to him now, and maybe less appealing now that he''s forced to consider the nitty gritty aspects of moving.

Do you consider him a very reasonable person? How great is his desire to stay where he is? It sounds like he''s not super-enthused about where he''s living now...but it''s ok. Could you sway him with a logical standpoint? You two need to move anyways. Maybe do some preliminary research on the job market there?

I think it''s very important to also do some listening and find out exactly why he wants to stay. He could have some valid points you have not yet considered, and his reasons for staying might help lead you to a compromise you both would be happy with.

P.S. Are his cats not trained? You''re going to have to bring your stuff into the same vicinity as the kitties someday, so working on their destructive habits now might be helpful to prevent future strife!

 

[nytemist]

Anchor I thought about you as well... I will be up there the weekend after Thanksgiving with a friend of mine. I was hoping to do some more in depth researching with the help of my friend''s friend who lives there. She moved there about 6 years ago. I know they are trying to make a French proficiency exam madatory, but with what I was told by her as long as you can speak some French it works a bit more in the immigrant''s favor during processing of paperwork, depending on where you''re from. The last time I was there in July I read about the resistance to more Hatian immigrants coming in.

Honestly, I do not feel I''m forcing anything on him. The timeline was first mentioned by him (moving sometime next year) long ago. What I have been trying to do is plan. You can''t make anything happen unless you plan ahead. Can''t just pack everything up, quit our current jobs and drive somewhere else and think it will be fine. Now that it''s come time to talk details of how to make it happen, he doesn''t want to. I don''t want resentment on anyone''s part, but I will stand up for myself. What I want out of life is not a surprise to him.

Tgal- trying to keep things tidy with someone that grew up without that being a priority just isn''t worth the daily headache anymore. I leave whatever mess he made right where he made it and wait until he trips over it. I don''t think he would like the idea of renting it out. The unit that we''re in was being rented out by the previous owners and the tenants trashed the place and got evicted. I''m sure he''s paranoid of going through the same thing.

Aloros, he is a very rational, analytical thinker. I''m not a total, crazy, throw caution to the wind type like I was in my 20s; I think before I act but still willing to try something new. On the other hand he can what if something to death. Sometimes he goes after something he wants, other times it''s easier for him to just not try if he doesn''t think it will work. The ''considering the other person'' way of thought still doesn''t seem to click with him all the time. I''m sure there are other reason why he seems so set against altering things in his life, but I haven''t been able to get around to the root of what he''s afraid of and it''s maddening. Maybe now that I''m there he''s realizing oh crap now I have to grow up or something? I''m having a hard time getting it through that it isn''t all about him anymore. And no, the cats are not trained. He and his sister spoiled them rotten and now they have no discipline. When they do something bad, I use the sharp training voice to get them to stop and they usually respond, since I''m still the "new" person. He''ll simply call their name and say ''stop that'' and they pretty much ignore him.

It''s not even these cities in particular. I don''t think he wants to go anywhere. His excuse is that he hasn''t been to these places as many times as I have. I''ve been enough times to fall in love with them, though I know every city has it''s issues. The other city I know really well is New Orleans and I''m not going to move there, since the violence and everything is worse since Katrina. I''ve been to Miami, he''s not sold on going there. San Francisco I really like but it too is really expensive. We''ve both been to London, he doens''t like it enough to live there. Again, he''s telling what doesn''t want easily, but not what he does want.

Funny thing, his mom thinks it would fabulous for us to move. She has wanderlust and loves to travel as well. She told me long ago that I made such a good impact on him on getting him out of his shell, she hopes I can show him not be so afraid of living life. She thinks him going someplace else would shock the confidence into him.

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 10/29/2007 3:43:03 PM
Author: nytemist

Honestly, I do not feel I'm forcing anything on him. The timeline was first mentioned by him (moving sometime next year) long ago. What I have been trying to do is plan. You can't make anything happen unless you plan ahead. Can't just pack everything up, quit our current jobs and drive somewhere else and think it will be fine. Now that it's come time to talk details of how to make it happen, he doesn't want to. I don't want resentment on anyone's part, but I will stand up for myself. What I want out of life is not a surprise to him.

I don't think you're forcing anything on him, but I do think that perhaps your timeline, given all the balking he has done in the past, may not be reasonable when dealing with someone like him. It is clear from all your former posts that he is a type of person that needs to be prodded, even with things that should NOT have been any surprise to him and that he obviously knew were coming (you moving in after being engaged and almost married), yet still you were met with resistance. I just think, given what we've read about him, that when it comes to something SO life changing...literally moving to another country where another language is preferred...that your 'preparations' need to be done TOGETHER, and with enough time that moving there isn't as terrifying as he might think it will be. If he feels prepared, he will resist the whole thing less. People like him need to be involved quite a bit along the way so that he's looking forward to it, not balking at it. Or so it seems from here

ETA: And to be a little sneaky

, if he thinks alot about 'himself' and that it's about him and not the both of you....work on getting him to see the benefits of moving there from HIS perspective. Methodically.

 

[janinegirly]

hi nytemist,

i haven''t followed your thread before today, so hopefully i''m not too far off base.

anyway, it really seems like there is some major conflict here and the resentment has already kicked in (not sure how long you''ve been married?). again, it sounds like you really have specific life goals (which involve moving) and he is not the type to want to make any changes. neither are wrong, but they are drasticially different. It seems some of this conflict came up before (in different ways) but the 2 of you still moved forward.

all i can suggest is taking a good hard look at things and why it is you married this man (time to re-focus on the positives), I understand you have your heart set on moving somewhere different, but does it take priority over the health of your marriage? I''m NOT saying you''re in the wrong, I''m just saying it sounds like you have certain visions which your husband does not share at all..unless you force him. And it sounds like this is exacerbated by your annoyances with other parts of his personality (being over analytical, slow moving, messy). Bottom line, if this marriage is your # 1 priority, then it has to go first and everything else must be compromised or put on the shelf until a better time. If the thought of that makes you insane and angry at him, then it''s time to access what it is that IS a priority for you and then pursue that so that you do not feel like you are missing out on a full life because of him. Either way, you need to get to bottom of this and start talking to him. I can sense the resentment and that is a toxic thing for a relationship.

 

[surfgirl]

NY, I haven''t been following your saga so I''m going to comment only on your latest post...The excuses your husband gives are totally lame. Vets? Seriously, there''s a vet in every town from coast to coast. Cats? They''re indoor cats, yes? They''ll be fine anywhere YOU say is ''home.'' What''s really saddening to me is that you say you still dont feel like your marital home is "your" home. It sounds like you still feel like you''re living with a boyfriend and to me, that''s a huge problem. And while I think moving is indeed a huge life change, and people DO change their minds as they grow, it sounds more to me like it''s not so much he really doesn''t want to move, but rather, that YOU dont feel like you''re moving FORWARD as a couple. It sounds like you feel like you moved in with a reluctant boyfriend and even though you''re now married, he''s still treating you and the relationship like a girlfriend/boyfriend thing, if that makes any sense!

I''m all for good counseling. It sounds like he needs a crowbar to pry his butt out of the familiar and if you want to move forward and grow - as a couple - then it sounds like you need some outside professional assistance. Find a good Marriage and Family Counselor - someone who gives "homework", as that is a great way for people who are "stuck" to get ''unstuck''. Good luck and please, even if he wont get counseling (which, if he refused, that would be a deal breaker for me personally), get someone to talk to for YOU. Because YOU need to get yourself "right" with this situation, even if he never does. YOU have to figure out if this is the relationship for you IF he wont compromise with you so that you can reach for your dreams. And no, I dont think your desire to move is crazy or selfish. I can totally relate.

Best of luck!

 

[FireGoddess]

I do agree with what Surfgirl said. I also want you to know that, having read the former issues and pulling for you all along the way, I don''t want you to take from what I said that you should just stop prodding him and settle for what you don''t want. If there is a way to involve him significantly along the way so that he changes his perspective, that''s what I''m hopeful for. If not, then I agree with Surfgirl that he could benefit from a ''reality check'' given by a 3rd party...that he is MARRIED now and that his concerns have to stop focusing only on himself.

 

[janinegirly]

i guess the part i''m missing (and it''s probably b/c i don''t know the history leading up to this issue) is why this is being viewed as a problem stemming from the DH focusing only on himself. This isn''t just a question of him not cleaning up (which I agree is disrespectful), it''s a question of him not wanting to uproot and move somewhere where he has no ties and has no interest in (which is not an unreasonable reaction).
i think fundamentally this is a situation where 2 people are very different-- different life goals/visions and now married and therefore less willing to "cover up" certain traits (ie letting true charateristics and wants come out). Some of the conflict is due clashes in persoanlity traits of the people involved and the 2 have to either realize that they love each other more than what they''re sacrificing, or realize the differences may be too much for both to feel equally validated and fulfilled. big questions for sure.

 

[nytemist]

End of a non-productive workday. I thank everyone so much for giving another view of things. Time to go home and try and see if a rational conversation will be had. I''m feeling like he will attempt to ignore the big pink elephant in the room per se and act as if all is well. I hope not as that will irk me even more.

I am probably going to start seeing a counselor next month. At my last routine doctor''s appt. she asked how married life has been and I said honestly it''s been a challenge. She suggested it right away, saying that her first marriage was a ''challenge'' that went straight to daily butting heads and ended in divorce. I haven''t told him about yet... I want to talk about some things with the couselor on my own first. Then include him if he can get himself away from work. How to get him to realize that his relationship should come first.

Surfgirl you have nailed it on many points. I''ve been clearly seeing it now that all the nitpicky what if''s and hows are just a screen for ''my life being turned upside down''. Amazing what you learn when you live with them.

We are pretty different. I was the outgoing, crazy wardrobe, good student, teachers loved me kid in high school. He was the very shy, ackward, please ignore me type. The older I get, the more outsoken I''ve been. He''s much different from when I first met him, but still has to realize that he has to let me in. Thanks again, now I have to see how this evening goes.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 10/29/2007 4:05:28 PM
Author: janinegirly
hi nytemist,

i haven''t followed your thread before today, so hopefully i''m not too far off base.

anyway, it really seems like there is some major conflict here and the resentment has already kicked in (not sure how long you''ve been married?). again, it sounds like you really have specific life goals (which involve moving) and he is not the type to want to make any changes. neither are wrong, but they are drasticially different. It seems some of this conflict came up before (in different ways) but the 2 of you still moved forward.

all i can suggest is taking a good hard look at things and why it is you married this man (time to re-focus on the positives), I understand you have your heart set on moving somewhere different, but does it take priority over the health of your marriage? I''m NOT saying you''re in the wrong, I''m just saying it sounds like you have certain visions which your husband does not share at all..unless you force him. And it sounds like this is exacerbated by your annoyances with other parts of his personality (being over analytical, slow moving, messy). Bottom line, if this marriage is your # 1 priority, then it has to go first and everything else must be compromised or put on the shelf until a better time. If the thought of that makes you insane and angry at him, then it''s time to access what it is that IS a priority for you and then pursue that so that you do not feel like you are missing out on a full life because of him. Either way, you need to get to bottom of this and start talking to him. I can sense the resentment and that is a toxic thing for a relationship.

and "Janinegirly- what else do I compromise? I''ve given up on having a neat place. This topic up hasn''t been brought up in a while. I''ve given up ever really feeling at home since all my things aren''t even moved in yet. Can''t decorate since the cats will destroy almost anything in their path. My life seems dictated by these cats. Also, I''m not forcing this issue- he himself has said we need to move. The condo is only 670 sqft. There isn''t enough room. What''s hard is that he''s told me a list of places he doesn''t want to go, but can''t say where he might want to. Any of the places I''ve mentioned he gives a reason why he can''t go there (will he find a job, will he find a vet, how much of a PITA to register his car) He doesn''t like the complex we live in, but he''s content to stay there. He knows I''m miserabel since I don''t have my car anymore, we aren''t near anything and the neighbors are crap. I don''t know what direction to try go in now. It seems my life is on hold due to his fear, when before we got married it was all well and good. I''m upset since the gameplan was switched and I wasn''t told."

i''m so glad you''re going to counseling without him. i think you will want to decide what you want your life to be like. when you''re really really clear for yourself and yourself only, then is the time to talk with him. the two of you may love each other but love doesn''t conquer everything. he has a right to be who he is.....and you have a right to be who you are.

movie zombie

 

[VRBeauty]

Nytemist: I''m so sorry to read this thread. I agree with Surfgirl that it''s probably time to turn to the professionalls. I hope one or both of you will be able to do that and to stick with it.

Just venturing into places where I don''t belong, but... how large is Mr. N''s circle of friends? I''m guessing that you can get to know people and make friends pretty easily. Is the same true of Mr. N?

 

[luckystar112]

Nytemist-- your story gave me a panic attack!!!

I live in Houston and it is well known that I don't plan on living here for much longer. FI agrees and understands. I feel so strongly about it, that I don't know where I'd be right now if he told me that he'd like to live here forever. Funny thing is, I'm trying to get us to move TO Mass! lol. Right now we're in agreement that we would like to move after I graduate college and definitely BEFORE we try to have children, so--within the next couple of years. If I marry him and later find out that he changed his mind about moving, I would feel jipped too. Devastated. It's a promise that he made to me and that we've talked about multiple times. Yet, inside I worry sometimes. He doesn't want to go anywhere without a plan, and he doesn't think he can make the same money up there as he does down here, so he knows he needs a career change but hasn't really been trying too hard as of yet. I know he knows how important it is to me (to me, it's almost like if he were to tell me that he doesn't want any children...knowing that I didn't sign up for that) so if he changed his mind I would be so depressed. Ahhh.
I hope that you get him to understand how much this means to you. I can definitely imagine how you must be feeling!

Let us know how it goes.

 

[aljdewey]

NYT, so sorry to hear that you're struggling.

I don't really much see this as a bait/switch, though....this isn't new behavior from him. It's very consistent with his behavior from a few years ago.....behavior that you knew existed when you were waiting to get engaged and when you were embarking on marrying him. Were you expecting that marriage would change him?

Something hasn't changed with you either......when confronted with something you don't expect, you go on the accusatory vein. When it was waiting for engagement and it didn't happen, your lead was "so then you were just lying to me/telling me what I wanted to hear. If you weren't going to do it, then why promise?" Now, he says he's not sure about moving, and you go right back to the default assumption....."oh, so were you lying to me before?"

NYT, you married him and he married you. You love him and he loves you. You've been married for nearly a year now. At what point do you begin to really trust that he's not intentionally misleading you? It seems like you're still waiting for the other shoe to drop....like you're still waiting for him to disappoint you. As long as that's your expectation, marriage is going to feel unsatisfying and combative. You've committed your lives to each other. It shouldn't even be a question of "oh, so were you just lying to me before" at this point.

I really think that should be a primary topic when you do begin counselling (which I think is a great idea.)

To me, it doesn't sound like he was 'lying to you" before. It sounds as though he's saying "I'm having second thoughts about moving." That's something you can potentially work with. I think you hear in extremes. He says "Maybe we should stay a few years", and you hear "I'm not moving, and that's that."

He's telling you his concerns. Part of teamwork is you helping him to see that his concerns are solvable. It may sound stupid and elemental to you, but you and he think very differently, so he might NEED to hear you say 'I'm pretty sure the cats will be happy anywhere we were as long as there is food, love and affection." Sounds like something most people should know, but not everyone is the same, so he may need reminding.

He's not putting the cats before you. He's using the cats to express how HE feels. HE is happy where he is, and he's afraid of making a move. It's quite clear that Ian doesn't like change, and I think he has a hard time with change even for things that he really wants.

He's had a hard time making physical room for you in his place. He's had a hard time making shared environment concessions (cleaning). To a point, the place you're in represents that last bit of 'his' space, and giving that up seems threatening to him.

I also sense that he's not a risk-taker, and you are. The fact that he married you doesn't mean that he has become exactly like you, so risk-taking will likely always be a daunting proposition for him. That doesn't mean you can't be on the same page; it means you need to "sell" him on getting comfortable with the idea of moving.

Instead of throwing up your hands and saying "I can't believe he doesn't want what I want, he's known what I want, etc.", I'd try highlighting the things that will benefit HIM in a move and reassure him that his concerns are fixable.

Honestly, I can totally understand him not wanting to move to another country; that's not a small undertaking. But if you are going to sit there and wait for him to suggest alternate places to move, you're going to wait a long time. Remember, the status quo is COMFORTABLE to him, so he's not motivated to contribute effort to changing it. He wants to stay put, and he's said so. If you want to promote a move, that effort rests with you. Start identifying things you'd both want (warmer weather, more diversity, better cost of living, more job opportunity, etc), and use those things to help YOU research places that might fit the bill.

A friend of mine has encountered something similar. Her husband grew up in the east and moved west. She has always lived west in her state and she likes it. They've been talking about possible moves, and she candidly said to him "I'm open to discussing the idea, but if you want it, YOU have to be driving force to do the homework and present options. I'm not the one that wants to move, so it's on you to be the catalyst for this." Fair enough.

More than anything, I sense frustration from you because you feel like you're making progress (him coming out of shell, committing to change his behavior, etc.) and then "boom - back to his old way of thinking". He has spent his LIFE thinking the way he does and behaving the way he does. Even if he wants to change, it's not an overnight process, and it's not something that you can just declare "fixed" at some point. It doesn't work that way for anyone.

He's not "cured", per se. Overcoming his fears will likely be a lifelong effort, and if you're in this for the long haul, you need to accept that. Instead of thinking "ok, back to square one", you need to say "ok, he knows this is a pattern he wants to change, so I can help him identify it and work on it." I know this marriage is important to you, so I know you have what it takes.

 

[nytemist]

I''m back finally- had a quick morning meeting and then went to watch the start of the Red Sox parade, since it started behind my building.

I''m more calm since we did talk for a little bit yesterday evening. He apologized to me. Simply put, he said he wants to change how he approaches things, but doesn''t know how. I said that I was there to help him, but I have to know what you are feeling. I said to him that this marriage is the number one priority to me, more than moving, more than my frustration of not being able to find a new job yet. He and I. I was honest and told him that I feel it doesn''t seem as high on his list lately. He said he realized how it sounded to say something so contradictory. He said he doesn''t know how to put what he wants and how he feels in a way that it would make sense to me. I said how about being straightforward? He said he knows he''s done so much waffling and I have been patient with him. He said that he understands exactly what I''m saying, though it doesn''t seem like it because he gets so quiet. I asked him if he understood how I felt when a serious topic is discussed and I usually hear a string of ''I don''t knows''. I said I know men and woman think very, very differently, but if important issues have been mentioned in the past, shouldn''t they be on your mind in some way? They don''t just go away. He admitted of being a little guilty of that, saying that if an issue he doens''t want to think about comes up, he can just be silent and hope that it doesn''t come up again. I said to him that isn''t what an adult does. Ignoring something doesn''t fix or help anything. I said once and for all , you need to open up to me. It''s really hard for me to go forward feeling like I keep hitting a wall. I asked him again if he thinks he made a mistake, if this is what he really wants, if not you really need to let me know that. He got panicky and said of course he wants to be married to me, just said again that he needs to figure out how to change how he thinks. I said remember this is supposed to be the both us making our way through life, these one-sided decisions can''t continue. I don''t want to go on assuming and guessing things becuase I don''t know how you feel. I don''t want to feel like I have to be on eggshells since any topic I may bring up drives you back into not talking. We''re married to each other, that''s what married couples do- they talk. I feel as if sometimes I''m still not completely in your life and that hurts. I don''t want to spend my first anniversary feeling like you aren''t happy to be with me and excited about planning a future. I have to know what goes through your head or I will feel more and more frustrated. He agreed with me. He said he knows how he''s been acting but truly didn''t think it was a bothersome as it feels to me.

I asked him if he understood why I have felt lied to. He said he did and mentioned past occasions when he said one thing but did another. I said ''and I still stayed with you. Did I do the right thing?'' He said to me that I didn''t make a mistake getting married to him and he would do better to try. I love him so much. He is the first person that really accepted me as I am. When dating we had so much fun. We always talked about what we wanted to do. We were usully pretty silly most of the time. But even he said he realzed that his behavior changed after getting married. I''ve tried to figure out why and it''s something he says he can''t figure out. The bad side of me would assume that it was whole theory of ''now I got married to her, I don''t need to to try anymore'' but I know that isn''t it. I just want to know what has him so afraid. It''s almost like sometimes lately I don''t feel like I have 100% of him. I said I wish you trusted me to tell me what is really going on. He said he trusts me with anything. Makes me think why is this so hard?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/30/2007 2:04:55 PM
Author: nytemist
We''re married to each other, that''s what married couples do- they talk.

Hey nytemist, thanks for checking back in and for the update.

Yes, married couples are supposed to talk. Communication is key. My friend and I were talking about this and she was asking me why, after nearly 10 years of marriage, her husband still isn''t good at talking. He shrugs, doesn''t look her in the eye often when they are in an argument and responds with "I don''t know." a lot. I said my theory is because men simply are 1) wired differently and 2) haven''t had as much practice at communication as we women have.

I mean, think about it. We want men to communicate and discuss like WOMEN. And it is, IMHO, the more adult way to resolve things. I mean, say what you''re feeling. Discuss it. Figure out how you can do better and go forward. Right? Easy?

Well, we''ve been doing this from a much earlier age than men. Think about how we are with our girlfriends...the ones that matter anyway. We have a blow up. We talk. We cry. We blah blah blah and get things out in the open and hopefully you are still friends in the end.

Men...it goes something more like this:

- They piss each other off
- They will either a) give each other the silent period or b) hurl verbal abuse at each other or c) get into a physical fight. Sometimes all of the above.
- A bit of time passes and they say, "Dude, sorry. We cool?" The other nods and says "dude, we''re cool." They go out and have a beer.
- It''s never resolved, and sometimes you can see manifestations in the "sh*t" they give each other in the form of a put down.

So the first time they are probably expected to "communicate" like we think they should is with a woman...and some men never really have a serious relationship until they find the one they actually marry. Therefore this is the first time they have to LEARN, and we are already assuming they should KNOW how to deal with issues in an adult manner. They don''t, and we have to figure out how to help them learn.

I swear...sometimes communicating with TGuy is like teaching a child how to deal with things. But at least I''m getting a dry run for bringing up TTot!

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 10/30/2007 2:34:27 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 10/30/2007 2:04:55 PM
Author: nytemist
We're married to each other, that's what married couples do- they talk.

Hey nytemist, thanks for checking back in and for the update.

Yes, married couples are supposed to talk. Communication is key. My friend and I were talking about this and she was asking me why, after nearly 10 years of marriage, her husband still isn't good at talking. He shrugs, doesn't look her in the eye often when they are in an argument and responds with 'I don't know.' a lot. I said my theory is because men simply are 1) wired differently and 2) haven't had as much practice at communication as we women have.

I mean, think about it. We want men to communicate and discuss like WOMEN. And it is, IMHO, the more adult way to resolve things. I mean, say what you're feeling. Discuss it. Figure out how you can do better and go forward. Right? Easy?

Well, we've been doing this from a much earlier age than men. Think about how we are with our girlfriends...the ones that matter anyway. We have a blow up. We talk. We cry. We blah blah blah and get things out in the open and hopefully you are still friends in the end.

Men...it goes something more like this:

- They piss each other off
- They will either a) give each other the silent period or b) hurl verbal abuse at each other or c) get into a physical fight. Sometimes all of the above.
- A bit of time passes and they say, 'Dude, sorry. We cool?' The other nods and says 'dude, we're cool.' They go out and have a beer.
- It's never resolved, and sometimes you can see manifestations in the 'sh*t' they give each other in the form of a put down.

So the first time they are probably expected to 'communicate' like we think they should is with a woman...and some men never really have a serious relationship until they find the one they actually marry. Therefore this is the first time they have to LEARN, and we are already assuming they should KNOW how to deal with issues in an adult manner. They don't, and we have to figure out how to help them learn.

I swear...sometimes communicating with TGuy is like teaching a child how to deal with things. But at least I'm getting a dry run for bringing up TTot!

So true!!! TGal hit the nail on the head!!!! I had something similar happen where it was the reverse. My hubby could find a job in Oahu pretty easy and wanted to move so I said sure. Well we talked about moving there for a few years and then I actually had to do some work out there on a job and decided I wouldn't want to live there. My hubby was a little crushed. I wouldn't mind living in CA but he doesn't like it and he wouldn't mind moving east but I don't want to so we are stuck here. I would seek counseling if it really is bothering you. I think a counselor will give you some insight into your guy and she will give your guy insight into you. Best wishes and I am glad you talked things out. Take care!!!

 

[anchor31]

I''m really glad that you two have opened a dialogue and are starting to nail the real issues! It''s obvious that where to live can be a real challenge for many couples. I myself would like to move to Ontario after grad school (or maybe even go to grad school there), FI''s been taking English classes and says he''d be okay with it if he finds a job, but when the time will come I wonder if he''ll get cold feet.

I hope things work out for you!

 

[moremoremore]

"But even he said he realzed that his behavior changed after getting married. I've tried to figure out why and it's something he says he can't figure out"

Ohhh honey, everyone changes after marriage. You just settle into being yourself...and it's a chemical thing as well....It doesn't mean someone misrepresented themselves...it's just that again, people "settle" and after that whole "throwing caution to the wind" thing fades, you're left with the real world and real world decisions...Does it suck? Yeah, sometimes. But you have to look at what you both achieved by getting married.

I find this particularly on point:
"NYT, you married him and he married you. You love him and he loves you. You've been married for nearly a year now. At what point do you begin to really trust that he's not intentionally misleading you? It seems like you're still waiting for the other shoe to drop....like you're still waiting for him to disappoint you. As long as that's your expectation, marriage is going to feel unsatisfying and combative. You've committed your lives to each other. It shouldn't even be a question of "oh, so were you just lying to me before" at this point"

He has issues that he wanted to avoid to get you. Well, he's got you! So you are left with two options and two options only.

I vote for work it out.

Counseling is a great idea.

 

[onedrop]

Nytemist: I am glad that you two had a chance to talk. It sound like you have at least a little bit more insight into what he is thinking. Based on some things that you wrote that he said, for example: he finds it difficult to put into words how he feels, sound like talking to a professional would be a good thing for him. Just my two cents of course.

And I also agree with what TG said about men and women and communication. I often have the same issue with hubby, but mostly in terms of learning the right times to broach a subject. Mr. OneDrop will not...I repeat will not talk effusively if something is bothering him. He is very analytical and needs to be clear about what to say before trying to communicate his feelings. Once he is *ready* then he is very expressive and clear about his feelings. However...if he is not ready to talk I get very little from him. I only learned after several instances of this push and pull that insisting on trying to PULL what he is feeling out of him, it''s just better to just let things be. That way I don''t get frustrated trying to get to the issue, while at the same time and he can clearly explain his feelings and in the end we are both happy. I know my experience isn''t directly on point with your issue, but I guess I say all that to say that you have to find the best way to communicate with each other. Sounds like you have at least made a start.

 

[nytemist]

Trust me, dealing with having guys as friends when I was a teenager and even now, I know that communicating verbally is not a male strong point. It just seems to be that you at least think about things that are important to your relationship sometimes, you know? A long time ago I asked him to try and not answer a question with I don''t know- meaning if you haven''t an answer at all, at least tell me you need to think about how you feel about it and get back to me. Telling me ''I don''t know'' means you just don''t want to tell me, or you don''t care enough to process an opinion or feeling. I get that from my father. I''m really hoping that we can get back to some kind of friendly ground because it''s supposed to be a celebration tomorrow of getting trhough the first year. I don''t want to sit through dinner and feel like theres a ton of tension and stuff. I appreciate the advice coming in, hopefully things will change. My frined had booked us a hotel for the night, but since he has to go all the way back home to give one of the cats his shot in the evening and the morning, he may not be able to spend much time there.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/30/2007 5:42:41 PM
Author: nytemist

It just seems to be that you at least think about things that are important to your relationship sometimes, you know?

LOLOL - gosh, I wish it were that simple!

NYT, you are expecting him to think as you do....and he doesn''t. And no matter how long he''s married to you, he won''t.

I''ve been married to Rich for more thanthree years, and he knows I''m a plan-ahead type. Knowing that doesn''t make HIM a plan-ahead type. If we are due to go to Maine so he can fish with my dad, he doesn''t think about needed his fishing sunglasses until five minutes before we''re leaving our house to drive to Maine. His niece''s birthday party is this coming Sunday, and he hasn''t given a second thought to going out to buy a gift. If I weren''t around, he''d wait until Sunday ON THE WAY TO THE PARTY to go get something.....completely forgetting that the stores aren''t open early enough for him to do that.

We went to the mall once to return a game; upon arrival at the mall, he gets out of the car empty handed and begins walking to the entrance. I said "Aren''t you missing something?" OH YEAH, he says. I forgot. I said "Rich, what in the heck did you do when you were alone? How did you function this way?" He looked at me and said "Things got done; they just got done my way. If I had gone into the mall, I''d have realized I didn''t have the game and I''d have had to come back out and get it. No biggie."

That was a revelation to me. To him, he''s used to dealing with the consequences of not thinking ahead, and apparently, it doesn''t bother him enough to change it. So, if I want us to think ahead, it''s on me to do it.

My point here: What seems like a no-brainer to you isn''t always a no-brainer to him. Add to the mix that he seems to be uncomfortable with conflict or not agreeing, and there''s not a lot of incentive. He''s telling you that his pattern is to avoid things that he doesn''t want to think about, hoping they''ll go away. He knows not all of them will, but he''s clearly not comfortable initiating the discussions.

I''d also speculate that part of his reluctance to speak up comes from what he anticipates will be your reaction. "Hmmm - if I tell NYT that I''m having second thoughts about moving, she''ll think I''ve been plotting all along and just lying to her, and since I don''t want her to feel that/think that, no point in going there." Part of getting him to trust you with his thoughts/feelings will be learning how to trust him, too.....that he''s not ''having second thoughts, wanting a life without you, regretting your marriage, pulled a bait/switch", etc., etc. Trust is a two-way street; you have to give benefit of the doubt to get it.

It might help you to know that what people want CAN change over time. As Skippy said, she was ok with the proposition of moving to Hawaii until she spent extended time there, and she changed her mind. People DO change their minds, and that''s something you have to learn to work through as a couple.

A last thought....sometimes "I don''t know" means just that...."I don''t know". If you want to move and he doesn''t, then it''s hard to know what will be the compromise you''ll end up with. When you ask him ''well, where does that leave what I want'', his answer of "I don''t know" is a perfectly reasonable response. Sometimes, you can identify the problem without having an answer, and marriage is about finding that solution together. Maybe he can work on saying "I''m not sure, but let''s keep trying to work it out together."