Disciplining children: questions

[fieryred33143]

Does anyone have any good book recommendations or anything they can suggest?

Sophia just turned one so I know there's not really much we can do in terms of discipline besides redirect. But sometimes we'll tell her to stop and she'll flat out ignore us. For example, she loves pulling out the DVDs and throwing them on the floor. When she starts, we'll say Sophia, stop those are not toys. She won't even turn her head in our direction . She just keeps doing it. Or she will turn to us with a finger in the air babbling something and turns right back to what she was doing. So we'll grab her and put her somewhere else but she'll crawl right back to it. And the girl is STRONG. She'll try as hard as she can to push right through us

Also, how do you not laugh? Serious question. We try to be firm before we redirect so that she can hear our tone and get used to it but when she turns around with that little finger in the air, it's really hard not to laugh.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

1 is too early for discipline? What about a time out (a very short one obv)?

 

[fieryred33143]

I've read on different sites that 18 months is when you start doing time out because that's when they understand it. If I sat Sophia in a corner, I don't think she would understand.

 

[Puppmom]

It's so hard when they're cute! It sounds like you're doing the right thing by redirecting her.

I don't know if 1 is too early for timeout but, my best guess is, that you would probably just end up really frustrated because she might not *get it*. I think a better solution since Sophia is in the grabby stage (why oh why do they have to touch EVERYTHING?) is to keep everything you can out of her reach that you don't want her touching.

Sorry, no book recommendations - we're still on the Happiest Baby on the Block.

 

[TravelingGal]

I laugh all the time. Because it gets funnier and funnier. Oh the ANGST they feel at 2! But I've gotten good at hiding it too. Just a twitch in the mouth for me now.

Just based on what you said here, two things:

1) Do a better job of getting her attention. I made Amelia jump when I used to call her name. She noticed. Could be that your kid is just really good at ignoring, but if you aren't already, REALLY make a point of punctuating her name.

2) Babies can't win - but sometimes it takes more time to get them to give up. You say she goes back to what she's doing. Pick her up and move her. And if she even INCHES in that direction again, pick her up and say no. Over, and over, and over again. She WILL give up at some point. But you have to be quick and consistent with not letting her go back to the undesired spot.

She can try all she wants, and be strong all she wants, but you are stronger. I know it's hard to keep an eye on your kid all the time, but try so she can't even make it to the DVDs. When she heads there, say "Sophia! No, not for Sophia!" and grab her. Half the battle is getting her to understand that it's futile to even TRY to get to the DVDs.

I didn't use time outs with Amelia until she was 20 months.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

It's so hard when they're cute! It sounds like you're doing the right thing by redirecting her.

I don't know if 1 is too early for timeout but, my best guess is, that you would probably just end up really frustrated because she might not *get it*. I think a better solution since Sophia is in the grabby stage (why oh why do they have to touch EVERYTHING?) is to keep everything you can out of her reach that you don't want her touching.

Sorry, no book recommendations - we're still on the Happiest Baby on the Block.

Wait, Pupp, isn't your kid a teenager??

 

[TravelingGal]

I've read on different sites that 18 months is when you start doing time out because that's when they understand it. If I sat Sophia in a corner, I don't think she would understand.

Yeah, I agree. I started using timeout when Amelia could at least understand what she was doing wrong and tell me why she was in time out. In the beginning, timeout resulted for only two things: Hitting and throwing. She knew what those two words were. So when I asked her after her time in time out was over, "Why Amelia in timeout?" She would say "No throw" or "No hit." It was very effective, and I'm glad I didn't use it until I felt she could grasp the concept. It's been very highly effective and now even the threat of time out sets her straight.

Up until then, I know I did a lot in the "discipline" area, but all that really encompassed was saying something and meaning it. I never, ever let her win when I decided to pick the battle. Not once. I swear, that, more than anything has gone a long way into making the two's a lot easier. In the earlier days, I think the best thing you can do is teaching your kid that when mommy says something, she absolutely means it. NO EXCEPTIONS.

It's exhausting though, for sure...but the payoff is later! Because I'd hate to be teaching her that NOW when her stubborn streak and will are a LOT stronger.

 

[TravelingGal]

Oh, and one thing you may find helpful, as I think it helped me.

Children, in those first two years, are all about learning cause and effect. If I drop this from my highchair, mom picks it up. Or perhaps it just stays where it is. If I make a terrible screeeching noise, mom gives me the item I want. If I jerk my body and become as stiff as a board, mom will put me down. Etc, etc.

Decide what kinds of effects you want for a certain cause. If you don't want your daughter to scream and shriek when she wants something, don't give things to her when she screams. If you take something away from her because she's wreaking havoc with it, don't give it back to her after saying "don't do X with it, OK? Be good." Because then she'll understand that nothing is permanent...all she has to do is promise to be good and it will come back.

I really think it's not unlike training a dog early on. All about conditioning. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that.

 

[fieryred33143]

Yeah, if we were to put her in the corner we would get the same results Tgal-hitting and screaming. Either that or she'll find something fun about being in the corner

Pupp-We've been trying to keep everything out of reach. All of the things that were of potential hazard to her have been baby proofed but there are still a bunch of stuff, like the DVDs, that we felt it would be better to teach her not to touch rather than close it all up.

Tgal-good point on being more firm with her name. I have noticed that on some occasions when I raise my voice above what she's used to, she does get startled and it catches her attention. I usually do that with the 'eh eh eh' but haven't with her name.

She's also starting to hit. But she's not hitting out of anger or frustration, she just thinks it's funny.

Also, I don't know if you or someone else had mention the cause and effect before but I know I read it on here somewhere. She started dropping her sippy on the floor over the past few weeks and of course we would pick it up. But now we don't give it back to her anymore when she drops it unless she asks for it and we'll say "this is for drinking" before we give it to her. I don't know if she understands but so far it has worked.

Thanks for the tips so far!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I have started reading "123 magic" which was given to me at my baby shower. I had it on the shelf and one of my professors ALSO suggested it during a lecture so I figured I had nothing to lose. I am about half way through the book, they also have a video, but I like the "no talking, no emotions" rule (no hitting, no yelling) to disciplining. Fingers crossed I can add his theories successfully in with my standard time-outs. His stuff is making sense like remembering children are NOT mini adults. The book is for 2-10 year olds.

 

[TravelingGal]

I have started reading "123 magic" which was given to me at my baby shower. I had it on the shelf and one of my professors ALSO suggested it during a lecture so I figured I had nothing to lose. I am about half way through the book, they also have a video, but I like the "no talking, no emotions" rule (no hitting, no yelling) to disciplining. Fingers crossed I can add his theories successfully in with my standard time-outs. His stuff is making sense like remembering children are NOT mini adults. The book is for 2-10 year olds.

I probably read a similar book type of book (it was called Making Children Mind without Losing Yours - or something like that. Written by a Christian author, but recommended to me by a totally non religious friend who said it was easy to ignore any religious reference, and in fact, there are very few in the book). I plan to adopt more of this when Amelia is around 3. Basically it's reality based parenting and there are other books out there with similar advice.

Right now, I'm starting to give Amelia choices: You can do this and stay up or you can not do this and go to bed a little early. You choose." She usually choose the nicer option. I like to let her think she has some kind of freedom. As she can start connecting the dots, I'll ask her to do something, and if she doesn't do it, the next thing she wants I'll simply say no because sadly, she didn't do the thing from earlier. I think it's a smart (and less stressful) way to parent, and sounds like the book you're reading Tacori?

 

[Tacori E-ring]

TGal, basically the FIRST offense you tell the child "that's one," second you say "that's two," third and final time you say "that's three, take [enter the number of years they are]." He likes time-outs in the child's room but says chairs are ok if they are working. He also says the biggest problem is parents talk too much (distracts the child) or get too emotional (throw their own tantrum). I like that I don't have to remind her WHY she is getting a rest period after the first time (the child should know) or ask her to apologize (b/c most children lie anyways). Lots of good tips, easy read. He says what to do in public, if the child destroys their room, etc. Lots of logic. Is that similar to your book?

ETA: I guess it is a very popular method with teachers as well. He calls it "123 Magic" b/c that is what people will think it is. According to the author it is so easy and transforms the child into stopping their negative behavior (tantrums, fighting, welling) and encourages healthy starting behavior (eating, bedtime, going to school).

 

[TravelingGal]

TGal, basically the FIRST offense you tell the child "that's one," second you say "that's two," third and final time you say "that's three, take [enter the number of years they are]." He likes time-outs in the child's room but says chairs are ok if they are working. He also says the biggest problem is parents talk too much (distracts the child) or get too emotional (throw their own tantrum). I like that I don't have to remind her WHY she is getting a rest period after the first time (the child should know) or ask her to apologize (b/c most children lie anyways). Lots of good tips, easy read. He says what to do in public, if the child destroys their room, etc. Lots of logic. Is that similar to your book?

Similar in the parts that the author sees a problem with - that parents get too emotional. I agree with this and have been trying to do this with Amelia. It's 2 warnings for the most part, then time out. Just whisk her there and walk away. Then afterward, I calmly ask her why she's there, explain myself, and then tell her I love her. If I get to the point where I feel like I'm going to lose it (which I can't remember the last time - but her eating does drive me batty sometimes), I'll give myself a time out!

I also agree. When comes discipline time, I speak simply, clearly and not much. I had to tell TGuy this as the first time he put her in time out (when we used the cage) he sat there and started giving her a lecture. He didn't know that might not be the best technique and since has just said simply "No throw! Amelia time out." and walks away.

I'll have to check out that book. There does seem to be some differences in the way I do things and the way you say the book recommends. I always tell her simply why she is in time out (although you're right, she does know.) I also think the apology thing is interesting. I think we had a thread on this awhile back. Children don't really get the meaning of "sorry" early on, and in many cases later on, they don't mean it. But I think it's important to apologize for civility sake. Others say that one shouldn't make the child say something she doesn't mean. For now, I'm making her apologize.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

they make it on kindle! How do you link here? http://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effec ... 250&sr=8-1 I was wrong, it is for ages 2-12. He would say you don't have to tell A why she is getting a timeout b/c she already knows throwing is wrong. But like you said, take what you like and leave the rest. I will let you know if it works on my little monster.

 

[TravelingGal]

they make it on kindle! How do you link here? http://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effec ... 250&sr=8-1 I was wrong, it is for ages 2-12. He would say you don't have to tell A why she is getting a timeout b/c she already knows throwing is wrong. But like you said, take what you like and leave the rest. I will let you know if it works on my little monster.

Thanks lady! I sent a sample to my Kindle. I quickly read a couple of reviews and I think it will be helpful. I'm already able to just raise one finger and Amelia takes it as a sign that I want her to stop doing the behavior (the finger used to be linked to my very loud and obnoxious "eh eh eh!") But this book seems to take it a bit further.

Ever little bit helps. I like to have plenty in the arsenal for this battle!

Fiery, sorry for the threadjack!

 

[Tacori E-ring]

TGal, I am on chapter 11 and like I said I really like his ideas. Let me know if you end up buying it. I would be curious on your thoughts since I know you are a good researcher.

My kid is a tough kid so HOPEFULLY this will help all of us. Both people who suggested it, swear by it.

Fiery, he is strict that your child has to have the mental capacity of a 2 year old. I think before that they don't really "get" discipline.

 

[fieryred33143]

When they're in time out, do they stay put? Was there a period where they wouldn't stay put but eventually got used to it?

Also, do you use it out in public?

ETA: Tgal, no worries! This is all really good information so I'm reading through the conversation

You know, my friend's 3yo is a terror and I try not to judge but wow.

We were at a b-day party and the hostess had brought along a bunch of toys from their house. The toys were mainly for the babies as they had a small bounce house outside for the older kids. He was the oldest one there. I think the next oldest was 18 months, maybe 2.

Anyway, he started to play with the Laugh & Learn house but was holding the door shut and not allowing any of the children to crawl through it. If they tried, he would push them down. He pushed Sophia multiple times. And it wasn't just with the door. He also did not want them touching the toys. Then he sees the other older kids playing with the cozy coupe so he gives up the L&L house, opens the door to the coupe, pulls the kid out , and sits in it.

As if that weren't enough, he realized that all of the kids were playing with the other toys so he scoots over and blocks them. He pushed all of the toys in a corner and refused to let anyone play with anything. My friend kept saying that they were going to go home and he has to let other kids play but when he screamed no, she just said "oh man, wait until they get to his age" I assumed she was just embarrassed. FI lured him outside with a beach ball and bat. Afterwards we talked about what we would do in that situation but other than leave, I don't know what would cause less of a scene. Maybe take him outside for a time out? I don't know.

 

[vespergirl]

Hey Fiery, we started with timeouts when Andrew was around 1, because we knew that he understood "no."

If Sophia won't sit in timeout, you may want to put her somewhere that she can't get out of for the 1 minute or so that you keep her there, like a playpen or highchair.

Andrew's 3 and a half now, and he still responds very well to timeouts. We've found it to be effective. As he got older, though, we would warn him the first time after an unacceptable behavior (e.g. the next time you throw Mommy's book on the ground you are going to timeout) and then follow through.

It's exhausting because it is a lot of grabbing the kid & physically putting them in timeout, but if used consistently, it works.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

fiery, the book explains it ALL! There is always a way to have a time-out but he also teaches other types of punishments (no tv, earlier bedtime, no treat, etc). I started time-outs around 18 months and she was caged in. There is space behind out sectional and the wall since it is set on an angle and I would put her behind the sofa. She was pissed but got that this as NOT an ideal situation. I switched to a chair since I think it is important SHE stays put not that she has to maybe 6 months ago. For the most part she does stay. If not I pick her up and put her back on the chair. Oh, a new trick that works for me is giving her the timeout and if she won't go ask her calmly if she wants to walk or she wants mommy to carry her. If she screams I say "oh, you want mommy to carry you" pick her up and take her. Now she knows I mean it and will say she wants to walk. Not sure if that goes along the lines with the "123 Magic" but it works for us.

 

[TravelingGal]

Tacori, I just read all the sample chapters. Not sure if I am going to buy it, although it sounds interesting. I say I'm not sure because the sample I got was pretty much about how great their program is, how many languages it got translated into, and how it will work for you. So far, the little info in it I read makes sense, and I will probably get it because I find child psych, discipline books to be very interesting. I'm going back to amazon for random peeks at chapters, as that may give me more info. I'll read more reviews too.

 

[PinkTower]

All I have to add is that you should take lots of photographs! Of all the photographs I took, the ones where one of my babies is doing something like, sitting in the floor merrily eating the box of Cheerios they dumped out are my most cherished. Just enjoy this phase.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Not sure if this helps but here are the chapters:

PART I: STRAIGHT THINKING
1. Is it Magic?
2. Stop Behavior and Start Behavior
3. The Little Adult Assumption
4. The Two Biggest Discipline Mistakes

PART II: CONTROLLING OBNOXIOUS BEHAVIOR
5. Counting Obnoxious Behavior
6. Twenty Questions
7. What to Do in Public
8. Variations: Sibling Rivalry, Tantrums, & Pouting
9. The Kickoff Conversation

PART III: NO CHILD WILL THANK YOU
10. The Six Kinds of Testing & Manipulation
11. Counting in Action
12. More Serious Offenses

PART IV: ENCOURAGING GOOD BEHAVIOR
13. 7 Start Behavior Tactics
14. Up & Our in the Morning
15. Cleaning Rooms, Picking Up, & Chores
16. Mealtimes
17. Homework & Practicing
18. Bedtime & Nighttime Waking
19. The Family Meeting
20. When Do You Talk?

PART V: STRENGTHENING YOUR RELATIONSHIPS
21. Your Child's Self-Esteem
22. Overparenting
23. Affection & Praise
24. Real Magic: One-on-One Fun
25. Active Listening
26. Your New Life

 

[fieryred33143]

All I have to add is that you should take lots of photographs! Of all the photographs I took, the ones where one of my babies is doing something like, sitting in the floor merrily eating the box of Cheerios they dumped out are my most cherished. Just enjoy this phase.

This made me laugh PT!! Thanks for the reminder! It is really funny when she makes a mess out of the DVDs, I'll admit. I only have about 4, the rest are FI's and he likes to keep them really organized (by genre and then alphabetically ) so when she messes it up it's kind of funny

 

[Mara]

I've read on different sites that 18 months is when you start doing time out because that's when they understand it. If I sat Sophia in a corner, I don't think she would understand.

Granted I am only in month 6, so I have NO experience, but wouldn't it kind of be like starting to teach them cause and effect?

aka I take DVD's out of the case, Mom says No.
I do it again, and Mom puts me in the corner.

Result: I take DVD's out of the case=I get put in the corner.

Do kiddos not have the capacity to start even remotely getting that at 1 year old? If that IS the case, then why do experts recommend sleep training at 4months particularly because the baby can understand enough to put together 'when I cry, Mom comes, therefore I cry til Mom comes'.

Obviously I haven't read up on this yet. I am still on 'what to expect the first year'..so I am really curious. But it would seem like if she is turning to acknowledge you with finger in the air she knows that you are addressing her, she just doesn't care.

 

[fieryred33143]

Mara-those are good questions.

I say that Sophia won't understand because her attention span is very short. If I say no and move her, that's instant. If I keep moving her, eventually (as Tgal mentioned) she gives up. If I grab her and put her in the corner, it'll be the same effect as when I grab her and move her away. For that instant she understands that I'm taking her away from the DVDs. But as time goes by, she forgets the whole DVD incident and begins to wonder why she's in a corner and can't move. Don't know if that makes sense. I think it's just the purpose of sitting in a corner (or in a caged area) that she may not understand at her age.

ETA: Also, that’s interesting what you say about CIO as I can see your point! I never looked at CIO as ‘I’m crying, mommy’s not coming, so I shouldn’t cry anymore.” I see CIO as the first night passing out from being tired of crying and the second night (plus) realizing that it’s ok to be in a room alone.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Mara, thanks for your post. This is clearly the line my mind takes on the subject as well. Kids do have some knowledge of cause and effect and consequences at a young age, so why would it not extend to this situation.

 

[TravelingGal]

I've read on different sites that 18 months is when you start doing time out because that's when they understand it. If I sat Sophia in a corner, I don't think she would understand.

Granted I am only in month 6, so I have NO experience, but wouldn't it kind of be like starting to teach them cause and effect?

aka I take DVD's out of the case, Mom says No.
I do it again, and Mom puts me in the corner.

Result: I take DVD's out of the case=I get put in the corner.

Do kiddos not have the capacity to start even remotely getting that at 1 year old? If that IS the case, then why do experts recommend sleep training at 4months particularly because the baby can understand enough to put together 'when I cry, Mom comes, therefore I cry til Mom comes'.

Obviously I haven't read up on this yet. I am still on 'what to expect the first year'..so I am really curious. But it would seem like if she is turning to acknowledge you with finger in the air she knows that you are addressing her, she just doesn't care.

I do think that kids can learn cause and effect. But at a young age, I think it's pretty hard to get kids to stay in a corner! And even then, is it really something that they are going to dislike? And if you want to keep them in that corner, you are going to have to continue to make an effort to keep them there, so I'd rather expend the energy in making sure they aren't going to get near the DVDs.

So instead of teaching them I take DVD's out of case = I get put in a corner, I think it's easier and more effective to teach them "I start heading for the DVDs = I am not going to make it there because mom is going to stop me, therefore, why bother?"

When we started time outs for Amelia at 20's, I had to teach her the concept. I used a "cage"...A boring place with nothing to do. Plus I walked away (she hated that more). Then once I taught her the concept, I was able to stop using the cage and leave her against the wall. She hates time out because she's social now and doesn't want to be left alone when it's not her call. There is no way Amelia at 1 year old would have really cared, and especially no way I could have left her in a corner and walked away and had her still there in the same place when I walked back.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Fiery, that is why the book I mentioned said you couldn't use it until the child is 2. I have used time-outs since T was 18 months and there are certain things (hitting, kicking, etc) that are automatic time-outs. Not sure she REALLY understood cause and effect when she was 18 months BUT she DID understand that the time-out corner sucked. Now that she is older she does know what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, however, it is her job to test her boundaries. It is my job to discipline and teach her that mom is the boss, not child. She does not get time-outs for mistakes, spills, etc but for behavior I already indicated is not okay and after she ignores the warnings.

 

[fieryred33143]

Oh yes, that's the other reason as well: she won't sit still. I think baby center goes over this as well. They mention that until you can get them to sit still, it's better to redirect.

We (unfortunately) use the PNP as another play are for when we can't monitor her. We don't have a big enough space to set up a play area for her so if I have to use the restroom, she goes in to the PNP. She also sleeps there when we travel so I don't think we would be able to use it as her quiet/boring area. She loves being in there. Same thing with her crib as it's the other 'cage' like area that we have.

Also, at her age she finds pretty much anything amusing. If I sit her in her high chair, she'll play with the straps. Seriously. Sometimes I cannot feed her effectively because she's too busy playing with the straps

 

[TravelingGal]

Fiery, that is why the book I mentioned said you couldn't use it until the child is 2. I have used time-outs since T was 18 months and there are certain things (hitting, kicking, etc) that are automatic time-outs. Not sure she REALLY understood cause and effect when she was 18 months BUT she DID understand that the time-out corner sucked. Now that she is older she does know what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, however, it is her job to test her boundaries. It is my job to discipline and teach her that mom is the boss, not child. She does not get time-outs for mistakes, spills, etc but for behavior I already indicated is not okay and after she ignores the warnings.

Agree. Timeouts used to only be for hitting and throwing (2 very obvious and identifiable causes). Now that she's older, she will get time out for being openly defiant - basically anything that I ask her to do and she flat out refuses or runs away.