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Choosing a Thai lab

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AustenNut

Brilliant_Rock
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I just bought a sapphire from a seller located in Thailand. This seller usually uses Labtrade Laboratory as its lab of choice, but said it was willing to send the stone to any lab. The Labtrade certificate costs $50. But since few people here seem to know of it, should I ask it to be sent to a different lab? If so, which one? And what would the costs be for the other labs? Labs I''ve read about here include:

Tokyo Gem Labs
GIA
Burapha
AGL
Gubelin
AGTA
GRS (GemResearch Swisslab)

I''m not sure if all of these have a location in Chanthaburi or not, and which would have the best equipment to test sapphires and all of its possible problems, etc. Basically, I''d like to know the best place to get this certed.
 

morecarats

Shiny_Rock
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I''ve used many (but not all) of the gem labs in Thailand. I would recommend either AIGS or GIT as the best combination of expertise and price. Both are in Bangkok. GIA in Bangkok is also very good, but significantly more expensive.

You should not be paying more than about USD $20.00 for testing at either of the labs I recommended, unless you are also getting an origin report. AIGS has all their prices listed on their website, so check any price you are quoted against the posted prices.
 

haagen_dazs

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morecarats
i know you are based in thailand and i really appreciate your expertise =).. really..
 

AustenNut

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Thanks, morecarats for speaking up. I had a feeling you would
2.gif
. The vendor said if I just wanted a lab id that they generally use Hallmark labs for $10. Do you know anything about them?

I also found a copy of a Labtrade cert and was wondering does this look good, or should the certificates have the VS2 or whatever on them? I know that there's no particular standard for clarity among colored gemstones, but didn't know if this was considered kosher. Does the industry agree on terms like "extra fine" and "fine" or would someone have to go to Labtrade's website to see what their terms meant? Also, this certificate gives an estimated retail replacement value. Does their retail pricing look accurate, and would insurance companies consider this legit as a double appraisal/id?

ETA: I also noticed on the Labtrade cert that it doesn't say whether or not the stone is treated, just that stones of that variety commonly are. This seems like a big no-no to me. Am I right, or am I overly sensitive?

Also, looking at the AIGS full report and brief report they don't discuss that cut, clarity, etc. Just whether or not it received treatment and the measurements.

Should I just get the AIGS cert to make sure it's what it's supposed to be and then later on get it appraised? Ugh, no clue what I'm doing here.


ETA2: Looking more at Labtrade's site I think what I linked to is an appraisal report instead of an authentication report. If I did want to go this route, should I do both? Or would the appraisal take into account the fact that this is not a Be treated stone, and therefore I could be at peace without an authentication certificate?
 

morecarats

Shiny_Rock
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I''ve never used the Hallmark lab. But $10 for a test report sounds questionable for me, even in Thailand. I don''t think you can hire experienced gemologists to do the work at that price.

Do you want an identifcation report or an appraisal on your gem? Generally these are quite different reports and are done by different companies. Labs like AIGS do scientific testing on gemstones and will tell you what kind of stone it is and how it''s been treated. I think companies like Labtrade specialize in appraisals. That''s why they have grading categories on their reports that you won''t find on a GIA or AIGS report for colored stones. There''s no standard in the industry for terms like "fine." So far as I know, neither GIA or AIGS will even give your colored gem a clarity grade in their reports. They will grade diamonds of course, since there are established standards for doing so.

I''m not an expert on what insurance companies will accept as an appraisal. But I can tell you that in my business there is only one kind of appraisal that has any meaning. That''s the one where someone makes me an offer on a stone.
 

LD

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Austennut - go with the certificate that the Vendor recommends. He uses various different labs and will tell you honestly which to go with. What you want is a certificate that states what treatments (if any) have been applied. Don''t worry about appraised values.

However, for appraisal purposes (especially if you''re going to get the item insured) you must use somebody in your country. If you''re in the UK I would highly recommend using Safeguard. They''re a subsidiary of the Birmingham Assay Office. When they appraise your loose stone or jewellery they take photographs, measurements, and then describe the item fully i.e. colour, clarity etc and use reference stones where it''s possible. In the UK, insurance companies are happy to accept a Safeguard appraisal - less so with other companies.

Assuming you''re not in the UK shout up because I''m sure somebody in your country will be able to point you in the right direction.
 

AustenNut

Brilliant_Rock
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Thanks for the replies. Though I haven''t decided definitively, this stone (and the ring it becomes) will probably be insured.

I am located in the U.S.

Labtrade (the company the vendor recommended) has a branch in the U.S. and one in Thailand, and says that its appraisal reports are accepted by Jewelers'' Mutual who I think is one of the main jeweler insurers here in the U.S. Would the report issued by the foreign branch still be considered as valid since it also has a U.S. branch?

As far as what I care about, #1 is that the stone is worth the $. Secondly, that no invasive or controversial treatments are used. The vendor said the stone is heated, which is fine with me. I just want to make sure that nothing else has been done to it.

So do you recommend I do Labtrade and just ask for the authenticity report and not the appraisal one? Or should I do an AIGS report to confirm nothing funny is happening with the stone and then get the Labtrade appraisal? Or...?
 

haagen_dazs

Brilliant_Rock
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Date: 11/14/2009 12:07:12 PM
Author: AustenNut
As far as what I care about, #1 is that the stone is worth the $. Secondly, that no invasive or controversial treatments are used. The vendor said the stone is heated, which is fine with me. I just want to make sure that nothing else has been done to it.
Would you be able to share some photos of your sapphire?
congrates on your purchase. hope its the right one for you =)
 

AustenNut

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Hey Mark,

I''ll probably end up creating its own thread for the sapphire in the next day or so, so I''m not going to post pictures in this thread which I''m trying to keep to labs for anyone who searches the archives later on. But I did just post a couple of pictures in this LIW thread if you want to see it. I''ve also e-mailed the vendor to see how he feels about me revealing his identity (he knows that LD posts here and that PS members know that we''ve bought stones from the same person). But thanks for asking!
 

LD

Super_Ideal_Rock
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AN - I feel that what you've done is incredibly disrespectful. Earlier, as it was apparent that you were going to keep mentioning me and this seller together, I asked the Mods to remove my original thread.

If you look at the "typical" gemstone purchase on this forum you'll see that the majority are well cut and bought from wonderful US lapidarists whose work is unrivalled. Buying less well cut gemstones needs experience as I'm sure TL and others can attest to and has by it's very nature more risk for the buyer. Therefore I hesitate to recommend him unless I know the person buying. I'm sure he's already told you that I've recommended him many many many times before but people who are used to gemstone buying. I don't know if you are or not but I would hate to recommend a vendor and then somebody says "but I've got a native gemstone" "it's not like the gems you see from Precisiongem" etc etc.

So, the vendor hasn't asked me to not say who he is. I chose not to but I guess you've already found that out as you seem to have discussed me with the seller which I find reprehensible. I really feel I've been pushed into a corner with this thread into saying something I had absolutely no intention of doing so. NOW I have to go and explain to him why I chose not to openly recommend him on this forum. I guess in hindsight I could have said that he has some gorgeous gemstones but some are less well cut than others but that seemed disrespectful to my friend. I now feel like I've been put in a horrible position and have to go and apologise to him.

So, for anybody interested, you can find Thomas at Gemsheaven Ebay shop. This only has some of his items. He is a very honest seller and a thoroughly decent gentleman and somebody I'm proud to call a friend.

You've made what you say is a significant purchase based on what you assumed was a recommendation from me which has worried me intensely and is why I asked the Mods to email you a message. I hope you get a good gemstone. The Vendor is honest and will always accept returns in case you don't like it.
 

morecarats

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I had a look at the eBay offerings from Gemsheaven. I won''t comment on the quality of the stones (you can decide for yourself), but I will comment on the integrity of the descriptions:

1. The seller seems to describe all his treated gems as "treated" without disclosing what the treatment is. This is not compliant with FTC guidelines for gemstone dealers. The buyer has no idea whether his rubies, for example are heated, fracture-filled or BE diffused.

2. The seller is offering blue zircon as untreated. So far as I know all the blue zircon in the market is heat treated to achieve the blue color.

3. The seller is offering red andesine as untreated. After all the controversy and lawsuits with Jewelry Televison selling this material as untreated, it is universally accepted that this andesine has been diffusion treated. Even JTV has finally conceded the point and has settled with their customers who bought andesine as untreated.

4. The seller uses some industry terms in a way that seems designed to deceive. For example, he offers a "Natural Paraiba Blue Fluorite" for sale.

5. The appraisals offered seem completely beyond comprehension. An ordinary 1.59 ct red spinel is offered with an appraisal of $3,150 and a buy it now offer over $500!

6. He has a very pale blue stone offered as a paraiba tourmaline. This color would barely be acceptable as aquamarine. Only an eBay seller could call this a paraiba.


There are highly reputable websites in Thailand who fully and accurately describe their gems and sell at prices signfiicantly lower than this seller.
 

AustenNut

Brilliant_Rock
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LD,

I apologize that you feel disrespected and cornered. That was never my intention. I had stopped posting in your thread for that reason, and why I did not mention your name in the thread I posted in LIW. When I was responding to Mark I didn''t think of the linking of the two names, as I know he had asked about the vendor before. I guess I was thinking of it more as an e-mail to someone who was already aware of the situation rather than someone who might read it later on in the archives (though I mentioned the archive idea to him in that very post). For that I am sorry, though at the moment I don''t see the edit topic button to remove the section where I mention you. Perhaps the moderator can remove it.

Though the thread has now been deleted I think that you said that you weren''t going to mention the vendor by name because he didn''t want it to be named. Since you mentioned you were friends I thought it might have to do with mutual friends who would ask him for friend''s rates or something like that. I supposed that reluctance to be named was all on his part, and not on yours. When I asked him about me naming him as my vendor I was actually trying to respect the relationship the two of you had by not breaking the secrecy if this would end up impacting some of your relationships in real life. However, had you simply said that you would rather not disclose your vendor I might have pondered why silently, but never would have done any further asking.

I also would like to add that I don''t think that naming a vendor is necessarily an endorsement of their services, or saying that all of their services or products are stellar. Even in PS'' sticky of vendors there are vendors who have both great products and also inexpensive, windowed, poorly cut stones. It is still the responsibility of the individual purchasing to figure that out, though they are obviously welcome to get feedback from PS. I''m no expert on gemstones (though maybe over time I''ll get closer to becoming one) but I understand that risk when buying from them. The fact that you used this vendor was not a guarantee that the stone would be perfect, but rather, that this company (unlike many on ebay) at least had real gems that were what they were purported to be and not just some glass. So though there''s a risk involved, it was significantly less than with some other vendors.

I simply would like to reiterate that I am terribly sorry for any discomfort that I caused you, either in PS-land or in real life. It was unconsciously done, and I hope will not have any lasting effects.
 

LD

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 11/14/2009 8:26:57 PM
Author: morecarats
I had a look at the eBay offerings from Gemsheaven. I won't comment on the quality of the stones (you can decide for yourself), but I will comment on the integrity of the descriptions:

1. The seller seems to describe all his treated gems as 'treated' without disclosing what the treatment is. This is not compliant with FTC guidelines for gemstone dealers. The buyer has no idea whether his rubies, for example are heated, fracture-filled or BE diffused.

2. The seller is offering blue zircon as untreated. So far as I know all the blue zircon in the market is heat treated to achieve the blue color.

3. The seller is offering red andesine as untreated. After all the controversy and lawsuits with Jewelry Televison selling this material as untreated, it is universally accepted that this andesine has been diffusion treated. Even JTV has finally conceded the point and has settled with their customers who bought andesine as untreated.

4. The seller uses some industry terms in a way that seems designed to deceive. For example, he offers a 'Natural Paraiba Blue Fluorite' for sale.

5. The appraisals offered seem completely beyond comprehension. An ordinary 1.59 ct red spinel is offered with an appraisal of $3,150 and a buy it now offer over $500!

6. He has a very pale blue stone offered as a paraiba tourmaline. This color would barely be acceptable as aquamarine. Only an eBay seller could call this a paraiba.


There are highly reputable websites in Thailand who fully and accurately describe their gems and sell at prices signfiicantly lower than this seller.
And this is EXACTLY why I didn't want to name him because for sure, somebody would try and tear him apart.

I know this Vendor. He answers all questions and is happy to send any gemstone to a lab of your choice BEFORE you purchase to give you comfort so irrespective of what his auctions say, if you contact him, you'll find much much more information is available.

Morecarats - it's obvious you are a Vendor in Thailand and you've said as much before. So why don't you give us the benefit of your wisdom and let us see how you sell items?
 

morecarats

Shiny_Rock
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If you''d like to see how professional dealers in Thailand describe their gems, have a look at Ajsgems.com, Gemselect.com or Multicolour.com. These are all foreign-owned companies that have been in business for years and have gemological expertise and a high level of integrity. They set the standard on the retail side of the business in Thailand.
 

LD

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I am familiar with all of those sellers and have bought from them also on many occasions. However, I do wonder why you never step up to the plate and confirm who you are! It's easy to criticise from the sidelines with anonymity.
 

PinkTower

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I agree with Loving Diamonds. I also purchase stones which are not precision cut, but would not want to make recommendations for the exact reasons.

I happen to trust my dealer so implicitly that I have made major purchases without even having seen a photo of the stone.

I would feel responsible if a consumer was disappointed, or if a stone was lost in transit from another hemisphere, or a better price was found. Most importantly, I would be heartbroken if my naming my trusted source on a public forum resulted in actually harming his business in some way.

More Carats, if you are a member of the trade, it would be helpful to make that clear in your postings. Perhaps more seasoned posters can clarify as to whether this is a requirement for vendors; I don''t know.
 

AustenNut

Brilliant_Rock
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I too am sorry that morecarats has decided to skewer the vendor in question. I never anticipated a reaction such as this because I''ve posted other ebay stones here (either pre- or post- purchase) and named the vendor and never had anyone do such a thing before. There may have been criticism of the stone, or the photos, or what have you but not a dissection intended only to find fault.

Insofar as my experience with the vendor so far, everything has been excellent. Communications have been speedy, extra photos provided, and overall the experience has been excellent (apart from this PS mess, though that has nothing to do with the vendor himself).

And though I admittedly am no expert, the retail pricing may not be complete hogwash. When going to a local jeweler to look at sapphires we said we were interested in a 6x8-7x9 stone. After asking for a budget (I think we said about $2k, no more than $2500) they automatically crossed out the 7x9 part. So though I didn''t ask the price for each stone we were looking at, the ballpark price of a 6x8 was around $2k and they felt that a 7x9 in the budget asked for was completely out of reach (we were looking for a pale sapphire, not one of the deep, vivid ones frequently shown here). So if something were to happen to a stone and it had to be replaced via an American retail vendor, the pricing mentioned on the site may not be out of line. And as mentioned before, Labtrade is an American company and the link I posted above was their professional opinion of replacement cost.

PinkTower: From various threads my understanding is that a vendor has to reveal himself as a vendor to the administrators/moderators but does not have to indicate that in his posts. From what I''ve seen though, most vendors reveal themselves in the forums and will actually include a link to their website in their signature. And vendors are not allowed to promote their own stones.
 

AustenNut

Brilliant_Rock
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LD,

I just wanted to say that I haven''t received whatever message you wanted to be forwarded to me. I also hope that you were able to resolve everything satisfactorily.
 
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