Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance...

[perry]

A Xmass near proposal led to a discussion on marriage to someone you love - or someone who you expected to be able to generate future income for the "family" (i.e Money).

I personally feel that I need to be able to love the person I marry - but that I also need to expect that my spouse will be able to help with our future income as well (even if it was only a part of it). That I was looking for a balance of the two features - that you had to look at the situation from a practical standpoint on would it work long term and could the two of you be expected to build a better future together. That I would not marry someone just because I loved them if they were going to drag my down substantially financially. Neither would I marry someone I did not love just because they could provide me with a financial future (or things I wanted).

I am also aware that expectations may go astray as situations change after you marry - and we would do our best. But that I am looking for a situation that up front looks like a win - win for both of us.

So - What do my fellow PS'ers think?

Perry

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

the first time you marry for love.the second time you marry for money.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Your title, "Re: Ying & Yang" Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance" suggests that you can balance Love with Money. I reject utterly the premise that these two items can be "balanced." It's a difficult subject, this, but these are not the terms and thought processes I would use to consider it.

 

[HopeDream]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Other way way around DF: First you marry for lots of money (and take half), then you marry for love

But seriously - I'm in charge of making myself rich, I look for a partner who I can respect and can take care of himself.

Love is very important, but love isn't enought to maintain a sucessful relationship with someone who's financial strategy and goals are radically different from my own.

It's more easy to fall in love with someone over time than it is to change their financial habits.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

love and only love. it's nice to have stuff, but I would rather have a partner that I *wanted* to walk with every day than a huge comfortable life with someone who irritated me. I don't think I would be in love with a complete parasite, because they would have qualities I don't think I would fall in love with in the first place. If I truly loved someone and they say wanted to be a starving artist instead of an account executive then the richness in our life from the fulfillment would be enough and if we both wanted to be starving artists then I guess it would be the humble life for us. No diamonds, but personal riches greater than wealth. It is very practical to consider money, but having a partner that you can reason with and work together toward shared goals with, that's paramount imo.

I married for love. There was no money between either of us. But I knew he was the kind of guy who would be a good father and provider. He understood that my greatest passions in life would never bring in money. One person shouldn't suffer for the other, but there are character qualities much more important than the potential for money making.

 

[Kaleigh]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I think it's best to marry someone you love. Love and true respect of core values is key... You would hope that person would help in contributing what they can ... You work, they work, and you work together making a nice life...

Perry, I know this is a difficult time, as your father just passed. I send you prayers of comfort and strength. I hope what ever you decide will be done with a clear mind... Not saying you don't have a clear head, but grief and such are hard things to go through...

So will sign off saying I wish you only the best going forward....

 

[Haven]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I have never equated earning potential with life-building potential. Rather, I sought a partner whom I loved, and with whom I shared a vision for the kind of life I desired. This vision had everything to do with the way we wanted to live our lives, and the values which would guide our decisions as we move through life together, and nothing to do with how little or how much money we could earn.

I can share that I have never made my decisions based on money, yet I find myself living the best version of my life that I could possibly imagine. Yes, I understand that it takes money to make things happen and to enable personal freedoms which I enjoy, but for me, whenever I pursue things that really make me tick, the money seems to follow.

I do know of people who approach marriage in the sort of practical, business-esque fashion you describe, Perry. Whatever works for you, works for you. I also understand that different things make different people happy. I guess I believe that you should pursue that, whatever it is, and good things will come of it.

 

[rosetta]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I marry for love.

I must admit I have never been in love with someone truly poor though, so I've not been in a situation where I had to choose.

I like to think that I would still choose love. However if that relationship broke down later, I might retrospectively think I made the wrong decision!

I pose a slightly different question: if two men/women both loved you and were both attractive to you, would you pick the one who was vastly rich, or who worked in a low paid job?

 

[Natylad]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Your title, "Re: Ying & Yang" Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance" suggests that you can balance Love with Money. I reject utterly the premise that these two items can be "balanced." It's a difficult subject, this, but these are not the terms and thought processes I would use to consider it.

Big ditto... And my parents' story, who have been happily married for 45 years,started with nothing and became extremely successful and rich in time, proves that if two people really, REALLY, love each other and stand by each other's side, they can achieve ANYTHING they want...You don't need to start your life with such thoughts, about how much money the other person has and what they can contribute right after you marry them. The big question is whether you believe in the potential of this person to progress and achieve goals in life, whether you believe in the balance, happiness and inspiration that this person brings in your life, so that you can perform better and become more successful too...

 

[perry]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Thanks for the responses to the general question. It does appear that there is support for considering the financial realities - now I'll add the key details.

I'm not toward the younger end of the age group on Pricescope, and retirement from my current position will occur within the next decade.

The other person, I just discovered, is significantly in debt. Of the amount they acknowledge I could probably pay off over time (assuming I had no other additional responsibilities) - except it would eliminate any more savings toward my retirement (and I have not much of that), and it would delay paying off the house into retirement (if I had enough money in retirement). This is assuming that I have no other unexpected significant financial emergencies in the next decade.

The other person's career is specialized (like mine) and only has employment at specific places (currently 6 hours away). The nearest place is about 3 hours from where I live (there are two options). If she can get a job there - she will likely have to work weekends and evening and night shifts. Even with 13 years seniority she does not have enough seniority in her current employment at her current location to work days or have most weekends/holidays free.

The other person's career is physically demanding - and she is starting to develop health issues which may prevent her from working in her career soon.

I make several times per year in my career than what she does.

While I have a side business - and she agrees this is good for me; she cannot imagine herself doing something like that herself (she is willing to provide emotional support for me).

For those of you who have stated that you marry for love only.... I do not see how that would benefit me. I am well aware that many marriages fail because of lack of adequate $$$ to live an "adequate" life - and that many spouses "fights" are really over money. Note if any of you would visit I doubt you would feel that I lead an opulent life.

Why should I marry into a situation (with someone I do love in several ways); but which immediately puts me into significant debt - on a minimal budget - significantly threatens my retirement and my house in retirement - with a person who if they can earn enough money to support their own debt payments will be at least 3 hours away and we would get together a couple evenings or mornings a week.

I'm not looking to marry into money. But I'm not looking to hurt myself a lot financially either. I do actually figure I could support a non-working wife if she entered the relationship debt free and does not have extravagant spending habits. But even given that - I would like someone who has the reasonable potential to add financially to the relationship in some manner. To me that is the balance between the two.

Perry

 

[rosetta]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Please don't take this the wrong way Perry.

When you truly love someone, money and debt are scarcely an issue. Practicality goes out the window. It may not be a wise and logical decision, but your heart just wont care.

If you don't already love this person, then yes, consider whether you wish to become more emotionally involved or not. Coz when you fall in love, you wont be able to think very rationally.

I should add that I am now on a coach and will be travelling via, bus, coach, train and taxi for over 5 hours so I can see my beloved for 12 hours before he is on call again. I have to make the same journey back tomorrow. I only saw him last week and I'll see him again on Friday. But it feels too long. I feel a bit embarrassed now that I've written it out

Now that's the kind of irrationality I'm talking about.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Perry, you didn't say if she would be willing to change her life financially. Maybe she would be willing to cut up the credit cards and
start paying every thing with cash and get out of the hole she is in. If you can get on the same page now about how you spend and
save you can have a great shot at a happy marriage. It would also give you a preview of how you two work things out together. I
don't think it is such a great problem that she has debt, but it is a big problem if she wants to keep spending the way she is now, and
you don't live that way.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Thanks for the responses to the general question. It does appear that there is support for considering the financial realities - now I'll add the key details.

I'm not toward the younger end of the age group on Pricescope, and retirement from my current position will occur within the next decade.

The other person, I just discovered, is significantly in debt. Of the amount they acknowledge I could probably pay off over time (assuming I had no other additional responsibilities) - except it would eliminate any more savings toward my retirement (and I have not much of that), and it would delay paying off the house into retirement (if I had enough money in retirement). This is assuming that I have no other unexpected significant financial emergencies in the next decade.

The other person's career is specialized (like mine) and only has employment at specific places (currently 6 hours away). The nearest place is about 3 hours from where I live (there are two options). If she can get a job there - she will likely have to work weekends and evening and night shifts. Even with 13 years seniority she does not have enough seniority in her current employment at her current location to work days or have most weekends/holidays free.

The other person's career is physically demanding - and she is starting to develop health issues which may prevent her from working in her career soon.

I make several times per year in my career than what she does.

While I have a side business - and she agrees this is good for me; she cannot imagine herself doing something like that herself (she is willing to provide emotional support for me).

For those of you who have stated that you marry for love only.... I do not see how that would benefit me. I am well aware that many marriages fail because of lack of adequate $$$ to live an "adequate" life - and that many spouses "fights" are really over money. Note if any of you would visit I doubt you would feel that I lead an opulent life.

Why should I marry into a situation (with someone I do love in several ways); but which immediately puts me into significant debt - on a minimal budget - significantly threatens my retirement and my house in retirement - with a person who if they can earn enough money to support their own debt payments will be at least 3 hours away and we would get together a couple evenings or mornings a week.

I'm not looking to marry into money. But I'm not looking to hurt myself a lot financially either. I do actually figure I could support a non-working wife if she entered the relationship debt free and does not have extravagant spending habits. But even given that - I would like someone who has the reasonable potential to add financially to the relationship in some manner. To me that is the balance between the two.

Perry

Perry, maybe you didn't intend your post to be harsh, but it seemed harsh to me.

You write, somewhat rhetorically, "Why should I marry into a situation (with someone I do love in several ways): but which immediately puts me... etc.

You don't marry a situation; you marry a person; and in this case all you can bring yourself to do is to parenthetically say that she is "... someone I do love in several ways)," without saying what those ways are at all.

But you really, really, really, seem to hate her financial situation and her future potential to earn money.

So don't marry her. Why are you asking us how we might think of this when you seem to have already made up your mind?

 

[Haven]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Perry--It really doesn't sound like you're in love with this woman based on the way you describe her and your situation in your last post. If I were thinking about those sorts of things when considering whether I wanted to marry my then-boyfriend, it would have been pretty clear to me that I just wasn't that "into" him.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

imo, i found that after two marriages and being about the age you are now [i think] that i had no intention of being in a relationship....married or otherwise....with someone that could not take as good care of themselves as i do/did myself. that meant not living at home but having their own space [yes people in there 50's still live with parents and/or roomates], driving their own car [didn't care if it was old or new], had the $ to pay their bills, weren't in debt other than for a home, was employed and relatively successful in their employment [no, working as a cashier would not count], could pay to travel a bit, and was not of a certain political party [DF, you know which one].

first marriage taught me what i didn't want.
2nd marriage taught me what i did want.
and this marriage to a man many many many years my junior is ideal.

i made a lot of mistakes coming to the age i am now....some of them financial. i had to get myself out of them. i learned that i could respect and be with someone that had done the same. but i wasn't into saving someone from themselves.

perry, if you are head over heels in love with this woman, its one thing. but i don't think you are. why not continue a relationship and help her out as as you can or are able or comfortable? wait until she is more stable? or are you afraid she is going to have health issues that will stop her from helping herself?

i know i am going to get lambasted for this but you've worked hard and i think you are wise to consider your financial position. in this day and age more and more people in my age group [i'm older than you] wish they had done so.

MoZo

ps you could have a very LONG engagement..........

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Your take on this relationship is VERY focused on fiancial vs. love, so it seems the $ aspect will hinder your relationship.

I agree with MZ about having a LONG engagement. One where you get married AFTER the person has paid off the debt. Also, where is the debt from? Shopping or from school loans?

Personally, I would NOT marry someone with a lot of debt, especially if I'd have to work more years to pay off that person's debt. Maybe that's also because I do not have any. My car is paid off and I use one credit card just to keep the account active. It would drive me batty to have huge credit card bills coming in the mail and seeing the interest being charged every month. I couldn't live like that.

 

[Jennifer W]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Only you can answer your own question about your relationship, but for me personally, the answer is very clear.

I would not have given a second thought to my husband's earning potential, income or financial acumen when deciding to marry him. Well, I didn't. I had no idea what he earned or how much he had in the bank, and I didn't need to know. I would give up my last penny if that's what it took to stay with him. It was a non-issue, I had and have no interest in his finances.

I'm responsible for my own financial welbeing. I'm also responsible for my own happiness. I've been dirt poor and happy, and comparatively well off and less happy. I've learned the hard way that the two don't go hand in hand, so I wouldn't (and didn't) care about the financial standing of someone I loved enough to commit to for a lifetime. It does not come into the decision, and is not weighed in the balance on any level.

 

[smitcompton]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Hi Perry,

If you were in your early twenties, I'm sure love would win out. But, since you are older, I 100% agree with MZ. Listen to her.

Your dream of finding someone to share and work toward your business idea may never come as well. Having someone who makes your life more difficult is not the place to be. Finances do count. Susie Orman couldn't have put what MZ said better. Protect yourself.

Thanks,
Annette

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I'm responsible for my own financial welbeing. I'm also responsible for my own happiness. I've been dirt poor and happy, and comparatively well off and less happy. I've learned the hard way that the two don't go hand in hand, so I wouldn't (and didn't) care about the financial standing of someone I loved enough to commit to for a lifetime. It does not come into the decision, and is not weighed in the balance on any level.

This.

This thread brings up a lot of interesting questions but for me it was love and only love that made my decision or ever could have.

Edit, I'd like to say, Perry, I'm sorry if my own post sounded harsh. As ever, I should have thought more calmly about what I wanted to say before saying it. You and only you of course have to make the decision(s) that are right for you and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[perry]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Thanks all - just go home today.

Why did I ask given that I'm not head over heals in love (something I have never been - likely due to my personality type): To get a reality check on my thinking.

Imdanny (and others): Don't worry about seeming too harsh. That's the nature of the PS group - and I do understand their are different opinions and different things that work for different people. I find that I have changed my views and actions at times because of the overall issues raised in the give and take here.

In this case, I do know where most of the debt came from and figure that their would be no more debt due to that reason should we get married. However, I also see no realistic way to pay off the estimated total debt without hurting me significantly financially (which I see no reason to do). I also see no way for the other party to realistically pay it off either even working their current career in their current location. They can make minimum payments on it; but that is about all.

Ya all have a great day,

Perry

 

[kenny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Money, or money-making potential, is just one of many legit considerations AFAIC.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Ya all have a great day,

Perry

Thanks. You too, Perry.

 

[suchende]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Your attitude about money and acquiring it is a big part of who someone is, in my opinion. I admit I would be less attracted to my boyfriend if he wanted to work for a non-profit instead of the high-income track he's on, and that's part of his personality.

Edit: it seems odd to me that people separate money from "what's on the inside" or something. They seem very inter-woven to me.

 

[ksinger]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Well, the young can talk about LOVE all they want - and for those who have made the correct choice early, I salute you, but when you get to be our age, a harder, more pragmatic look at marriage is in order. You've got less time left to get it WRONG! I've been married and divorced, and there were many reasons it failed, but money issues were at least as large as any other factor. The second marriage, was entered into with total love - married my first love finally at the ripe old age of 45, but if either of us had had different views of money, love wouldn't have overcome that. Both of us were married to the wrong person in that respect, and neither of us would have EVER done that again.

That said, I make about twice as much as he does and knew that going in, as, of course, did he. But 1) I KNOW he is a hard-working, pragmatic man who will do what is necessary to survive, and would not ask me to support him if he could even crawl himself to work. (The reverse is true too, so we are in accord). We handle money the same way, another accord, and he can pinch a penny to rival my mother, and that's saying something. We even had a very frank discussion when we decided to marry, where it was admitted out loud, that while we love each other to the end, there is also a very pragmatic financial aspect that has benefits for both of us going into our old age. It bothered neither of us to admit that.

So yes, Perry, I understand your concerns completely. Love, even real love, DOES take a hit when one partner feels they are being taken advantage of. As far as I'm concerned, there is no shame admitting that calculus. Finances in a relationship are HUGE, so why not say so?

I'm sure you have the situation well in hand and will make the right choice for you.

 

[JulieN]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Maybe they are trying to marry you for your money.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Why should I marry into a situation (with someone I do love in several ways); but which immediately puts me into significant debt - on a minimal budget - significantly threatens my retirement and my house in retirement - with a person who if they can earn enough money to support their own debt payments will be at least 3 hours away and we would get together a couple evenings or mornings a week.

Perry

Perry...don't marry into debt.the marriage will not last.

 

[yssie]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Your attitude about money and acquiring it is a big part of who someone is, in my opinion. I admit I would be less attracted to my boyfriend if he wanted to work for a non-profit instead of the high-income track he's on, and that's part of his personality.

Edit: it seems odd to me that people separate money from "what's on the inside" or something. They seem very inter-woven to me.

I very much agree with this - although DH is looking for assistant professorships with the goal of tenure, which is not exactly a high-income track outside of unusual circumstances

A difference in financial goals/habits is a much more significant obstacle than a difference in financial status, because the former directly determines one's approach to working and lifestyle. Perry, you sound like a wise and logical person. I think that you are more than able to evaluate what is best for you, and I wish you the best of luck

 

[Kaleigh]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

Maybe they are trying to marry you for your money.

I would hope not, but do wonder if that's the case ?? They see you as stable, etc..

.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

you young kids remember this....LOVE don't pay off debts... if you married someone with a lot of debt it will not be a happy ending...

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Ying & Yang: Marry for Love, or for Money, or a balance

I fell head over heels for my husband...10 years before I married him. I do love my husband very much but love by itself isn't enough to sustain a marriage throughout life's tests-- and I need to be sure of the rest before I committed to vows. But I certainly I didn't marry for money (and my husband would laugh his arse off if I said I did). But I did marry someone who was committed to me financially. I married my best friend. The person who shared my view on life in general, whom I respect. And who I trust with everything that I am and everything I have... monetarily, emotionally, physically.

I married a person. An individual. I didn't marry for an either a monetary or an emotional ideal. Because people are inherently flawed and marrying for any one reason, other than knowing that the person you want to spend your life with is the right person for you just seems like a bad idea to me. And I would never try to pigeon hole all the reasons I decided my husband was right for me by playing multiple choice.

I married for it all. For emotional, physical, and financial security as *I* define them, and as he defines them. That's as close to a short answer as it gets.


ETA: Need to explain better I think. What we have is based on so much more than just 'love' or 'money'... and if you don't feel that... how to explain it?

In our time together we've created something bigger and stronger than either of us individually. When I think of what our marriage is founded on... it's deep, complex and multicolored. Not all good. Not all bad. If it was all good it would be too bright. Life needs contrast. So you can feel challenged to strive. I had that feeling, that there together we had the potential to be than the sum of our parts, from the first week we met. It's not love. It's something different. More. And it was mutual. And I waited until that much of that potential was realized before I committed to vows. Because I needed more than love, more than potential, I needed reality. I needed a solid foundation to believe in.

If you feel that you don't both share that feeling that your relationship makes you want to be a better person, for yourself, not just for the other person, that together you can build something real and tangible and beautiful , I wouldn't contemplate marriage to each other. But that's me.