Yet Another OEC Thread...

[natasha-cupcake]

I’m hoping all of the old cut enthusiasts here on PriceScope can chime in on another OEC analysis thread. My wonderful husband has decided to buy me an Old European cut diamond for my upcoming birthday. He’s become quite friendly with our local jeweler (how cool is that!!) and he asked his new best friend to source one for me. He was going to keep it a secret but thought better of it. I’ve been dragging him around to pawn shops and jewelry stores that carry a few antique rings, so I’ve had a chance to see old cuts in person (mostly smaller ones, but a few over a carat). Anyway, he and the jeweler called in a few and they chose this one as a top contender. It’s a GIA certified 1.11 I color SI1 clarity stone. It looks very sparkly and lively in person and the color looks great for an I. I’m very color sensitive but for an old cut, I can be flexible. Here’s the GIA report: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=1182475585&s=1531091457941

I can’t, for the life of me, get a decent photograph of the stone, but I do have two videos that I took. My personal take is that it’s a very clean looking, bright stone with lots of sparkle and life, a great spread, and very little noticeable tint. I think it has significant leakage under the table, though. I can’t get a good photo using my ASET scope, but there seems to be a ring of light leakage around the inside of the table. I’m not 100% sure because I’m too terrified to take it out of the diamond holder to get a really good look at the ASET. I think I see a fish eye in bright sunlight, but in all other lighting the leakage doesn’t seem noticeable. Please look at my videos and tell me what you think. This stone is priced a little under $5000 (jeweler’s cost plus 10%). I’ve looked at August Vintage, Good Old Gold, Victor Canera, Jewels by Grace, Love Affair Diamonds and Ivy and Rose and for that money, I can’t touch a stone with similar color and spread. I’ve tried looking at Old World Diamonds, but the lack of photos and videos makes it difficult to get a good idea of what’s available. The stone is beautiful in person. My only concerns are the fact that there is probably a “dead zone” right in the center (in bright sunlight, primarily) and all other things being equal, I’d love to see a more pronounced floral pattern under the table. Other than that, I really love the stone.

Thoughts? Is a recut/retouching an option/good idea? If I decided to pass, I would probably offer to pay the shipping for this one, since my husband asked to have it brought in on memo without my knowledge. I want to be reasonable with the jeweler, since he’s a decent guy and my husband and he get along great.

Here are my videos:

OEC in indirect and direct sunlight:

OEC next to my .82 E VS2 CBI (please excuse my gigantic ape-like knuckles!):

 

[OcnGypZ]

It's just the nature of Old European cuts and their large culets. If you like higher crowns and chunky flashes.. but not a large culet - look for a transitional cut stone.

 

[yssie]

It’s really, really difficult to make out detail from those videos, but there is certainly a pronounced “fish-eye” effect at very slight tilt that is further exaggerated by the thick bruted girdle. It’s an expected downside of these sorts of proportions - including the depth that yields that glorious spread, I’m afraid.

 

[LLJsmom]

I see the dark spot in the center, and maybe that is what you refer to as the ring of light leakage. I would pass just based on the videos you posted. I wouldn’t sacrifice cut for spread / size. You should call Adam at Old World Diamonds and he can send you a beautiful stone. I would trust his eye.

 

[Luce]

It is a little hard to tell by the videos but I see the dark spot in the middle which seems to be more than the culet. I would pass.

 

[Lykame]

I would also pass, sadly. That is quite pronounced in your video and you will never unsee it. I'm sure you can do better!

I know nothing about sourcing these types of stones or I would help you look.

 

[foxinsox]

I see that ring in the direct sunlight at a tilt - I get this on my shallow OEC too in the same lighting conditions. Do you see it any other time? It doesn’t bother me when I see it in mine because it’s fleeting and under quite specific conditions. Walking slowly thru the video tho I’m seeing a bit of fisheye in the indirect light too and more head-on than I like.
I think that coupled with the lack of petals might put that into the no category for me. How do you feel about it tho? You say apart from the centre in sunlight and the less petally centre, you love it. How would you set it? Do you want that OEC high crown look?
You could look at getting it touched up since you’re buying it for an ok price but with a shallow stone that doesn’t look to have a super high crown, you’d probably lose quite a lot of diameter to get OEC proportions

 

[natasha-cupcake]

First of all, thanks to everyone who gave me advice/feedback. I really need it! To answer your question @foxinsox, I'm conflicted, to be honest. It looks really pretty but I do notice the dark area when I'm staring at it in direct sunlight, mostly when I move it to certain angles. Of course, I want it to be "perfect" all the time, but I don't know if that's reasonable. I'm trying to figure out what OEC characteristics I have to compromise on--facet pattern, nice high crown, color, size, etc.--to stay in budget. For my CBI, I compromised mostly on size because cut and color were my biggest priorities. For an OEC, size is a lot more important to me, because I really want to enjoy the OEC cut characteristics (facet pattern, kozibe and chunky, pastel sparkles for example). I've been leaning towards sending it back (reluctantly) but I managed to shoot a decent video that is a lot more representative of what the diamond looks like in lighting situations other than blazing sunlight. Would you all please take a look and let me know if your opinions are still the same? I would hate to send this back just because I'm a terrible videographer. That being said, I don't want to keep it, if the cut is really not good. Thanks so much everybody! (If you copy/paste the link into a new window, it's a lot easier to see the details because it'll be in full size mode.)

 

[Lykame]

First of all, thanks to everyone who gave me advice/feedback. I really need it! To answer your question @foxinsox, I'm conflicted, to be honest. It looks really pretty but I do notice the dark area when I'm staring at it in direct sunlight, mostly when I move it to certain angles. Of course, I want it to be "perfect" all the time, but I don't know if that's reasonable. I'm trying to figure out what OEC characteristics I have to compromise on--facet pattern, nice high crown, color, size, etc.--to stay in budget. For my CBI, I compromised mostly on size because cut and color were my biggest priorities. For an OEC, size is a lot more important to me, because I really want to enjoy the OEC cut characteristics (facet pattern, kozibe and chunky, pastel sparkles for example). I've been leaning towards sending it back (reluctantly) but I managed to shoot a decent video that is a lot more representative of what the diamond looks like in lighting situations other than blazing sunlight. Would you all please take a look and let me know if your opinions are still the same? I would hate to send this back just because I'm a terrible videographer. That being said, I don't want to keep it, if the cut is really not good. Thanks so much everybody! (If you copy/paste the link into a new window, it's a lot easier to see the details because it'll be in full size mode.)

I can see why you think it's otherwise a beautiful stone, @natasha-cupcake. It does look very pretty, and the 'black spot' does look smaller - but it does also look like it's still persistently present. I guess ultimately only you know what you think about that and whether you're able to tolerate that aspect of the stone.

It's just a shame... I'm not sure I believe that the word 'tolerate' should be used with such an item and you're clearly going to have to do an element of that with this stone based on what you've said (please do correct me if I'm wrong). I think there's a difference between 'compromising' and 'tolerating' in that regard.

There are some aspects of your question that I cannot answer, because I don't really know very much about these types of stones. I do think I have read some threads recently where people have shown off their old cuts and expressed how impressed they are that they have found a stone without head obstruction. Based on the way they phrased themselves, it makes me think that perhaps what you're seeing isn't uncommon in these types of stones. But equally it also seems possible to source stones that don't have this issue. Having said that, I have already said I know next to nothing about these types of stones.

I guess I just wanted to say that I think you should follow your gut. There is something about this stone that is making you nervous, and I suspect that will always linger.

I had a diamond a long time ago that was a branded cut, and I had seen smaller versions of it that I thought were absolutely perfect and wonderful. Then I got one for myself and it was just... it basically suffered from a fisheye/head obstruction and I just... couldn't unsee it. It really ruined the stone for me. Despite it being beautiful quite a lot of the time, and especially beautiful in certain angles, and being the shape I had wanted and everything... seeing the black spot in the middle even some of the time (quite a lot of the time) really really ruined the stone for me. Obviously we are different people but... this strikes me as a similar situation. It was worse because I knew there were stones out there that did not behave in that way. I tried various things to overcome it, asked questions to try and understand why the effect was occurring - it didn't help me.

Ultimately I do hope that whatever you decide, you're happy with your decision. I think if everyone on here was saying 'don't keep it!' and you suddenly realised your reaction was 'hey you know what, I don't care what you say, I love this stone!!!' then that would be different. But that doesn't appear to have been your reaction I don't think?

Sorry, I do know how to witter on; I do hope things work out for you and I hope that others can help answer the other questions you have! Let us know what you do!

Kindest regards,
Lydia.

 

[yssie]

The additional video is much clearer!

I too would pass on this stone. The fish eye is pronounced and invasive, even directly face-up, and I would think the weight loss required to mitigate it would be non-trivial - ignoring the other risks of a recut,

 

[ringo865]

Most OECs are much deeper than 53% and (or because) the crown is tall and puffy. This one is shallow and not puffy. It does get nice fire in the sunlight and is not very tinted (it is only an I, which to me is still white).

I would not love the dead zone or the Fish eye. For $5k you should be able to get a nice caratish OEC. It might be warmer than an I and probably not as spready as this one, presuming you get a tall puffy crown, but also would not be so shallow with fish eye and dead center.

Yes to calling Adam at OWD or check out love affair diamonds or jewels by grace. (I know your husband wants to go thru his new best friend tho)

 

[arkieb1]

Try places like Ebay and Etsy as well but you will have to have a keen eye to sort through what you are looking at. Places like OWD and Erica at LAD and Grace at JBG are a bit more but you pay them to weed out the stinkers in old cuts. Loupetroop also has some good finds particularly when people up grade from time to time.

 

[LLJsmom]

I can barely see any sparkle from the center facets. Sorry. Maybe it’s the angle. Based on this video I would pass.

 

[foxinsox]

The latest video makes me say nope - there’s no petals and that under table area is dead. The snowflake pattern round the outside is gorgeous and that highlights how wrong that middle is. it’s a real shame because round the outside is a lovely sparkler. You can do better.

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Thank you so much everyone. Sigh... I'm so sad about it, but back it goes. The return will be very awkward, but necessary. In one respect, I'm glad that I was able to spot the same issues that you all cite--proving once again that the average local jeweler is less knowledgeable than the average PriceScoper. No offense to my Price Scoper jeweler friends, or even the local jeweler himself. It is what it is. I'm also sad that in order to get a nice OEC, I'll need to make another major sacrifice in size and/or color, too. I may even reconsider spending the money at all, at this point.

 

[Lykame]

Thank you so much everyone. Sigh... I'm so sad about it, but back it goes. The return will be very awkward, but necessary. In one respect, I'm glad that I was able to spot the same issues that you all cite--proving once again that the average local jeweler is less knowledgeable than the average PriceScoper. No offense to my Price Scoper jeweler friends, or even the local jeweler himself. It is what it is. I'm also sad that in order to get a nice OEC, I'll need to make another major sacrifice in size and/or color, too. I may even reconsider spending the money at all, at this point.

Aw please don't give up. I know it must be so disheartening.

Would you be willing to go for a warmer stone? I'm not a fan of lower colour round brilliants (although I've seen some ideally cut round brilliants on here that are obscenely stunning despite being low coloured, so I'm changing my mind a little), but older cuts all seem to really suite a bit of warmth; somehow it seems to pull out their specific cut features in a way that is less obvious than in a whiter stone.

Or perhaps you can find a vendor who over time would upgrade?

Or what about GOG? They do since newly cut stones in vintage styles don't they?

Uh... I feel your pain. But also, kudos to your husband for going through this process with the Jeweller for you! That's so lovely. What's your [his] budget if we may ask? If you know.

 

[Lykame]

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...S-I-SI1-diamond-stock-16640-cert-104078707006

 

[Lykame]

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...uropean-I-AGS-K-SI1-diamond-stock-13298-cert-

 

[Lykame]

There are some others on their website but those two seemed to be the best cut closest to your criteria.

 

[Lykame]

Some that are close either with size or colour compromise:

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...uropean-I-AGS-I-SI1-diamond-stock-14407-cert-

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...ropean-I-AGS-Q-VVS2-diamond-stock-13061-cert-

 

[Lykame]

Well cut stones tend to look whiter and bigger anyway. Perhaps you can reach out to them and ask for some comparison photos and a video of the ones you like?

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Thank you, @Lykame for posting those options. I can tell that you feel my pain right now and I think it's so sweet of you to try to talk me off the ledge (speaking very figuratively, of course!). I am a little--ok, a lot--disheartened right now. My husband was so excited about doing this himself. I think it was a kind of redemption thing for him, because my original engagement ring was a total disaster. My husband had been taken by an unscrupulous jeweler back then and (long story, short) I went without a diamond for years before finally getting my CBI this past March (which I love, by the way). I won't part with my CBI, but I've fallen in love with OECs and he really wanted to surprise me with one. Part of me wants to keep it just so I don't have to disappoint him, but I can't see spending that kind of money knowing that the diamond has major issues. Right now, I need to concentrate on figuring out how to tell him that I think we should return it without making him feel bad and without him losing face/credibility with his new jeweler friend. I wouldn't want to use this guy to source another one, and I know he'd offer to do just that, so it's going to be difficult.

 

[Lykame]

Thank you, @Lykame for posting those options. I can tell that you feel my pain right now and I think it's so sweet of you to try to talk me off the ledge (speaking very figuratively, of course!). I am a little--ok, a lot--disheartened right now. My husband was so excited about doing this himself. I think it was a kind of redemption thing for him, because my original engagement ring was a total disaster. My husband had been taken by an unscrupulous jeweler back then and (long story, short) I went without a diamond for years before finally getting my CBI this past March (which I love, by the way). I won't part with my CBI, but I've fallen in love with OECs and he really wanted to surprise me with one. Part of me wants to keep it just so I don't have to disappoint him, but I can't see spending that kind of money knowing that the diamond has major issues. Right now, I need to concentrate on figuring out how to tell him that I think we should return it without making him feel bad and without him losing face/credibility with his new jeweler friend. I wouldn't want to use this guy to source another one, and I know he'd offer to do just that, so it's going to be difficult.

Your husband sounds so lovely that he's trying to do this for you, especially considering what sounds like a painful original experience, too. However, I also feel that part of him being so lovely is the reason why he let you know about it, so that you could have input in what is a really important decision. Based on that, I hope he would be open to you expressing that opinion.

I think in general men just like things to be straightforward - certainly my partner is like that. I told my partner about this to see what he would want said to him, and he just said to say: "This stone isn't right, we can do better with our money than this. Let's return this one and look to someone who has more experience."

I mean, I get what he's saying, and he would be fine with that, but you know your husband best. I believe in being straightforward, but I would flower it up a bit! I wonder whether you could talk a little about how stones from a long time ago were more difficult to create with a good cut because of the technology, and now you've spent some time with this stone you can see it's not as well cut as you would have hoped for. Based on the issue with the fisheye, you feel it's the wrong stone to spend such a large amount of money on, but you can also say that you're sad it's the wrong stone because you don't want to disappoint him. Just be honest with him.

In terms of the jeweller, perhaps there is no harm in having this jeweller look again. He might surprise you, especially if you can say to him what it is about this stone you don't like. But perhaps you can also explain to your husband that you're aware there are some other vendors who actually specialise in these types of stones, and you are keen to look at those options too?

I don't know, I'm honestly not trying to be didactic, I can understand it must be really difficult. I would find it really difficult. I hope the conversation won't go as badly as you think though!!!

Keep us updated on how it all goes and best of wishes to you.

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Thanks for your kind words. I might be making a bigger deal of it than it really is. My husband is actually very reasonable, very practical and very understanding. I just need to have a short but good cry () and then put on my Big Girl pants and deal with this.

 

[Lykame]

Thanks for your kind words. I might be making a bigger deal of it than it really is. My husband is actually very reasonable, very practical and very understanding. I just need to have a short but good cry () and then put on my Big Girl pants and deal with this.

Hugs!!! Cries are super therapeutic. It is gutting, this must have been so exciting for you and then for it to not have worked out. Pain pain pain.

Sending love and hugs your way.

 

[Octo2005]

What a sweet man you have. I am sorry that this surprise didn't work out as he had planned. I am sure that the folks here can help find a stone that is as great as your husband!

 

[HappyNewLife]

I'd pass due to the dark spot in the center. But it has amazing fire in the sun- wow!

 

[natasha-cupcake]

Super long post—apologies in advance.

I went to talk to Mr. Local Jeweler Turned “Friend” today to let him know that I wanted to return the diamond my husband bought from him. It went something like this:

Me-- “Now that I’ve had a chance to see the diamond in various lighting conditions and environments, I wanted to talk to you about it. While the outside of the stone has great sparkle and a nice facet pattern, I’ve noticed that it has a mushy, indistinct petal pattern under the table and it doesn’t really sparkle enough in that area either. I might have been able to overlook that, because it’s a great size and color, but I’ve also realized that it has a pretty blatant fisheye in some light conditions. So, I’m thinking I’d like to discuss a return or possible exchange”.

Mr. LJTF—“I can’t take it back because I’ve already paid the other guy/supplier. I can’t get a refund from him.”

(Note: At one point, long before my husband made this transaction, Mr. LJTF went on and on about how he could source OECs for me on memo. If I didn’t like them, he would just send them back. He could bring in as many as I liked… His source was a great one… It’s easy! And yes, I do understand what being ‘on memo’ means. It’s irrelevant to return policy, but I assumed he had a good, or at least reasonable, business relationship with this supplier.)

Me—“This is a lot of money for a diamond that I’m really not happy with… I would hope you’d care about my satisfaction, as your customer.”

Mr. LJTF—“I’m sorry, there’s nothing I can do. I can’t get my money back from the supplier. I already paid him.”

Me—“Really? You have a business relationship with this supplier that says once you hand over money, no refunds, even if you notice a problem with a diamond after the fact?”

Mr. LJTF—“blah, blah, blah… I can’t do anything. Your husband said you looked at the stone and liked it.”

Me—“At first, yes, I did like it. But when I really studied it, I realized that it’s cut too shallow. It’s got a fisheye. You’re a jeweler. This is your business. I’m not a professional, neither is my husband. Why didn’t you tell him ‘Hey this one’s cut a little shallow. Let’s try a different one’. Or maybe ‘This one has a bit of a fisheye. I wouldn’t purchase it’? ”

Mr. LJTF—“blah, blah, blah… I’m sorry.”

Me—“And your supplier… why does he have “Premium Cut” stamped on the wrapper of a stone with a fisheye?”

Mr. LJTF—“Lots of diamonds have fisheyes… blah, blah, blah… I’m sorry.”

I could go on, but I think you get the drift. My hubby is away on a business trip right now, and I’m not going to upset him long distance--I didn’t tell him about my hesitations yet anyway. So, my bling brothers and sisters… after a really good, hard, (very long) cry, I’m putting my Big Girl pants on to figure out my next step. As far as I see, my options are:

1. Keep my mouth shut, set the diamond, enjoy the large diameter, pretty sparkles, good color and other positive aspects of the stone, while ignoring the part-time fisheye. And then at the appropriate time, fess up about the full details (because I don’t keep secrets from my husband), and never buy from a local jeweler again.

2. Send it away to evaluate for a recut, and never buy from a local jeweler again.

3. Cry like a baby some more and when my husband gets home, send him down to kick Mr. LJTF’s ass. (Sort of kidding, I think…)

4. Sell it, lose a chunk of money, start over (…or not), and never buy from a local jeweler again.

5. Reconsider #3, and never buy from a local jeweler again.

Not really sure if I need advice or just virtual hugs, at this point.

 

[Octo2005]

Sending hugs. Sorry this is playing out the way it has.

 

[LLJsmom]

Oh you poor thing! I’m so sorry. If you keep it just consider a recut. Hopefully your DH can work something out with him.