Writing On The Internet

[JewelFreak]

Can anybody explain to me why internet communications are sometimes so aggressive? Not politics nor other incendiary topics but just regular "conversations."

I am truly curious, not scolding here. In view of recent exchanges on another thread, thought I'd ask. It's a general question, not aimed at any individual.

Why do writers appear angry when they express an opinion where others are doing the same without rancor?

Do these people talk face to face the same way? Or does the fabled internet anonymity make them feel more freedom to be hostile?

Why do they want to be hostile at the outset?

All of society is more impolite -- often said & true. Were they not taught by parents to put themselves in the other guy's shoes, to think how he feels reading what they wrote? Or do they not think about that; if they do, not care?

Do they think angry writing is better writing?

Sometimes everybody wishes they'd tamped down what they wrote -- the web does not provide a tone of voice, which makes a HUGE difference. I've almost lost 2 friendships -- real, human friends, not internet "friends" -- because what I wrote in one tone of voice was read in another. It can be trouble city. But the folks I'm asking about defend their aggression.

Anybody have perceptions on this?

--- Laurie

 

[justginger]

I think perhaps it is intrinsically someone's personality type - not limited to internet/writing situations, but seen in their entire style of communication. I know people IRL who have normal daily interactions that feel like battle after battle. They are naturally combative, for reasons unknown to me. They are people who have to make a genuine effort to be 'nice' by general societal standards. It can be a real struggle to interact with them in the workplace!

As an aside, I think 'rancor' is going to be my word of the day for tomorrow.

 

[makemepretty]

I also think that written responses are much shorter than actual conversations,so that they come across harsher than they are. You don't have the luxury of explaining the thought process in your answer, so it comes across as curt or rude.

 

[Aoife]

I've thought about this a lot, having been on both ends of forum threads where miscommunication abounded. I agree with justginger and makemepretty: the lack of facial expression and intonation that is present in face to face communication makes online conversations ambiguous, and some people just have a brusque or direct style whether they are in person or online. In addition, I think IRL a lot of people tend to mostly associate with others who share their religious/social/political/etc. viewpoints and really aren't aware of how their opinions come across when expressed in a setting with a more diverse group of participants. I see it all the time on other forums as well as real life. The underlying assumption is "I'm right, if you don't agree with me you're wrong, and all right-thinking people think this way." Not much room for conversation in that.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I read an explanation by a College Professor(well known-don't remember his name) who likened it to a drunken binge, where there are no restraints. His view of internet interactions was pretty low, and the longer I read forums, I tend to agree. I don't think you must agree with one another, but one should exercise restraint. I do not believe these people act this way in real life. Its the interent that encourages it. Its the medium. On the internet everyone believes their opinion or knowledge of the situation is equal to everyones elses. That of course is a questionable premise.

I hope you don't think this is agressive, but I will say, I never knew there were so many bigots, hostile, stupid people in America as I do now that i read the internet. That makes me sad. That, by the way, does not say that I am super smart or perfect in any way. I'm not.


Annette
Now to find that thread you're talking about.

 

[kenny]

Nobody can hit you.
You are sitting safely in your home and you can even be anonymous.

The Internet is kind of like that truth serum, alcohol, in that it helps the true you come out.

 

[JewelFreak]

does not say that I am super smart or perfect in any way. I'm not.

Well, I am!

I never knew there were so many bigots, hostile, stupid people in America as I do now that i read the internet. That makes me sad.

Me too. I think most of them are very young (in years or maturity) or not very bright -- we learn tolerance & humility with time, if we have any brains. But the future...who knows? Look at the videos of fights or how people try to destroy "enemies" on the web. They behave badly because they were never forced not to by parents, teachers, adults.

Good point that how we get to our conclusions takes too long to write, but some people manage to express themselves calmly, while others bite you.

Possibly many web surfers vent online because it's a way to get out the frustration that they DON'T express face to face IRL? Does that make sense?

the lack of facial expression and intonation that is present in face to face communication makes online conversations ambiguous, and some people just have a brusque or direct style whether they are in person or online.... The underlying assumption is "I'm right, if you don't agree with me you're wrong, and all right-thinking people think this way." Not much room for conversation in that.

Yes, Aoife, but I mean those who are more than direct or brusque. Belligerant. I do agree with your 2nd point -- & a lot of people feel that way but are more polite about saying it IRL, where it can come out in the anonymity of the web.

What does it feel like to be so aggressive? I wonder constantly. When I post, I imagine a person reading it, as I would writing a letter to a friend. (Remember letters? ) If I hurt someone's feelings, I have failed because they won't even notice what I said. Maybe those folks write in a vacuum?

--- Laurie

P.S. Ginger, Next, "belligerant!"

 

[AGBF]

I am afraid that I do know what thread you are referring to and I would apologize if my intent had been anything like what I think you believed it to be. (I am assuming-perhaps incorrectly-that I know what I am talking about-in other words, what thread you are referring to, here!)

In the thread started by Dancing Fire I attempted to flirt with you because I admire you so much and got no response, which disappointed me. Only Dancing Fire (who didn't understand my intent) responded to me.

I am used to people not understanding what I write. I am less used to people-especially the most intelligent people on Pricescope-being offended by my jokes. But it happens from time to time. I have a very dry sense of humor.

I guess I will withdraw my first sentence in which I said I would apologize if my intent had had been what you believed it to be. I simply apologize. Obviously I was gauche and didn't write clearly or I wouldn't have offended you. I am sorry.

Deb/AGBF

 

[JewelFreak]

Hey, Deb, honey -- I don't even know what you're talking about!! No, this was NOT to do with you. In any way at all. I LOVE your sense of humor, you crack me up & give me smiles a lot. And you're smart & have your feet on the ground.

This question occurs to me so often around the internet & something on a completely different subject made me decide to ask what other people think. I wonder because for me, it takes so much more energy to be unpleasant than to try to write persuasively & make sense.

This really doesn't address ANY specific person; it's a general question about what is so pervasive. NOT to do with you anyway!

See me batting my eyes at you?

--- Laurie

 

[AGBF]

Hey, Deb, honey -- I don't even know what you're talking about!! No, this was NOT to do with you. In any way at all. I LOVE your sense of humor, you crack me up & give me smiles a lot. And you're smart & have your feet on the ground.

This question occurs to me so often around the internet & something on a completely different subject made me decide to ask what other people think. I wonder because for me, it takes so much more energy to be unpleasant than to try to write persuasively & make sense.

This really doesn't address ANY specific person; it's a general question about what is so pervasive. NOT to do with you anyway!

See me batting my eyes at you?

--- Laurie

Relief!!!

Deb

 

[JewelFreak]

Gosh, you crackpot!

--- Laurie

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I found the thread, I think. In that case it is the personality of the individual, IMO. Some people have less ability to empathize with others.

AGBF--- I recall a thread where you defended a course of study, over one you thought was not as good. You were strong, , but not rude. Thats quite different than the judgmental disqualifying of a point of view by some posters. Good thread as I learned something.


Annette

 

[Harpertoo]

There was a popular motto in my office "emails have no tone."
I think it holds true for online chats & postings. As you all have noted, sometimes the person is trying to be provocative under the shield of anonymity, and sometimes they are just curt or business like in a response - not meaning to offend.

That being said, I've been really impressed with the care most posters take in being gracious and helpful. Even when an individual is clearly insulting.

 

[Aoife]

the lack of facial expression and intonation that is present in face to face communication makes online conversations ambiguous, and some people just have a brusque or direct style whether they are in person or online.... The underlying assumption is "I'm right, if you don't agree with me you're wrong, and all right-thinking people think this way." Not much room for conversation in that.

Yes, Aoife, but I mean those who are more than direct or brusque. Belligerant. I do agree with your 2nd point -- & a lot of people feel that way but are more polite about saying it IRL, where it can come out in the anonymity of the web.

What does it feel like to be so aggressive? I wonder constantly. When I post, I imagine a person reading it, as I would writing a letter to a friend. (Remember letters? ) If I hurt someone's feelings, I have failed because they won't even notice what I said. Maybe those folks write in a vacuum?

--- Laurie

P.S. Ginger, Next, "belligerant!"

I was trying to be polite. And perhaps trying to give the benefit of the doubt. But, I knew exactly what you mean, and I think in some cases it is because individuals who post with that "tone" really don't respect opposing viewpoints. No shades of grey, only black and white, right/wrong, etc. If you don't agree with that individual, it is because you are stupid. It's really a very simplistic way of looking at the world, I think.

 

[minousbijoux]

Thank you, Laurie, for starting this thread. What a great topic! I have no idea what thread you're referring to, but it must've been me, so I'll apologize right now.

I'm honestly not trying to make fun here, but Deb and Laurie, you just provided another great example of the miscommunication that can happen via the internet. The difference in your case is that you have an established relationship and trust that you put above any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation due to the limitations of an internet forum; you are willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt before reacting. That is another element that often complicates these situations. Here are others that come to mind:

- you (or they) may or may not know the other corresponders, so you may or may not have built up trust;

- you (or they) may not know that their writing style is matter of fact and to the point, that they're in a hurry, or that english is a second language;

- there are no visual cues at all (which studies show account for a whopping 70% of communication);

- you (or they) may or may not be the kind of person to give them the benefit of the doubt;

- you (or they) may be in such a rush that you post angrily in haste without taking the time to calm down and think things through;

- you (or they) may be one of those that feels "safe," and therefore empowered, by the anonymity of the internet;

- you (or they) may or may not be one of those competitive people that feel that they must have the last word

- you (or they) may or may not be aware of, or care about, how they come across

I do feel like there are goaders here, whether intentional or unintentional, who sometimes stir the pot. On the flip side, and what I love about this forum is that many people have made real and lasting friendships and have too much to lose by not assuming good intentions. I am proud to say that this forum has made me realize that I do have a lot of things in common with those on the opposite side of the political spectrum, even though we may not agree about politics. I know that what I just wrote is naive and simplistic, but its the truth. I really do feel like I'm a more understanding and open-minded person as a result of getting to know people of differing viewpoints here. But that's slightly off topic. I wish that everyone would assume good intentions and if I (or others) say something that is offensive, misconstrued, confusing or just plain off the mark, that someone would question my intent, rather than "shooting first and asking questions later." I'm sorry if I come across as completely wack - I'm responding generally without knowing the specifics of this particular situation.

 

[VapidLapid]

It was me.

I don't know if I'm sorry or not because I don't know which of my offensive posts you are referring to.

There is a casualness in posting online that easily slips into laziness. Then too there are unknowingly unexpressed thought processes that precede the typing. Often the writer does not realize that the subjects and points of view that were there in their own preliminary ruminations are completely absent in the writing. All pronouns no antecedents. That can make someone seem arrogant and brash, when really they might only be lazy and sloppy. Sadly, some can accomplish all four at a time! This happens even in direct conversations. I know High School teachers who fail to introduce a setting, a situation, the people or the subject in conversation, and who then are exasperated when I ask them, "what are you talking about", "who are you referring to?", "How am I supposed to know what you are saying?", "was this today?" and so on. People are lazy and sloppy; not necessarily intentionally without guile though. I believe there is an increasingly dangerous disconnect between what people think their writing says, and what the words used and the order they are used in can possibly convey.

 

[JewelFreak]

Minou, well thought out points. I agree with you 100% about PS; compared to other forums I read (don't write on more than 2), there's a feeling of comraderie on PS. Not much hostility or aggression -- thanks in part to Andrey & Ella et al. not allowing politics, possibly; people can skin each other alive elsewhere. Also agree about friendships made here, not to mention the generous sharing of knowledge & experience.

I can't think of a single post where you weren't polite & reasonable. I've seen you suggest to people who get hot under the collar that they tone it down a little, civilized. I had nobody in mind -- certainly not you! You're fun & smart & I'll never be your equal in knowledge!

It's the internet in general, where writers are called names, told to go die, insulted in slicing language. It happens here only occasionally, at least in forums I read, but usually fades out from lack of interest of others. However, when it does happen & the perpetrator is called on it, the response is like everywhere else, angry & accusing.

It's a way of being I just don't understand. Destruction & viciousness as a first resort in expressing disagreement. Accusing someone they'll never meet of horrible things. Maybe it's due to a limited bag of emotional responses, certainly to a complete lack of empathy & maturity. I guess I'll never get why jumping to hurt somebody would be a first impulse.

--- Laurie

 

[JewelFreak]

VL, would I insult you before I find out who you end up with at Vegas?

--- Laurie

 

[VapidLapid]

You might just want to avoid the rush!

 

[justginger]

VL, I am quite confident it wasn't you. I'm fairly certain a thread I took part in sparked this post, and you weren't involved.

 

[JewelFreak]

You might just want to avoid the rush!

Well, it did occur to me that I might get crushed in the stampede. Aww, I'm just jealous because I can't be there!

--- Laurie

 

[iLander]

I didn't read all the posts, but I think I know what you're referring to.

I think on the internet, people amplify their true personalities. I know that I tend to express myself more fully than I would in RL, because I think other people's reactions would cause me to make minute adjustments as I go along. Without those adjustments, the words just flow. In RL, I would love to be as affectionate and friendly as I am on the forum, but people would think I'm weird. This saddens me.

I also have a basic belief that may or may not apply here; when people are especially agressive or mean, it's because you've touched a nerve. Usually it's something that makes them feel guilty, or they are hiding something. I can't think of that applying to anything on PS, but I'm just throwing that out there.

I do think people are entitled to their opinions, and if it doesn't agree with mine, I raise my eyebrows and move on. It's just a forum, after all.

I don't like people that disagree with someone else's opinion, and take it personally. I think that's self-centered. If you disagree, certainly express your view, but don't assume someone was talking specifically about you, that's just silly.

"Don't worry what people think about you, they don't do it very much" is what I tell my kids.

 

[ForteKitty]

It was me. I was rude to VL, and used a word I always use casually with friends, forgetting that others don't use it as casually.

 

[Circe]

I'm kind of cracking up reading this, just because all of you are so well-mannered and apologetic, whereas the sorts of people who actually DO tend to inspire these threads would never ever ever feel that way. I know I thought of one specific recent exchange when I saw this, though *I* am probably wrong too, as Laurie is a lady who would never call anybody out ... but that's par for the associative course.

As for why it happens? Hm. I know people who are this abrasive IRL. I actually tend to chalk it up to our all mostly living in our own bubbles, which the internet ::pops::. So I see my Republican friends as being brash and combative where they're just stating the facts as they see them - and vice versa, I assume. But IRL tone, and wine, and the likelihood of polite derailing keep things from getting too heated. Online? We're deliberately mixing up our social groups, and then staying on topic to force confrontation.

We're actually lucky on here that it isn't considerably worse ....

 

[JewelFreak]

What word, FK??? I'm dying to know! (Not you, obviously. Not anybody specific.)

I don't like people that disagree with someone else's opinion, and take it personally. I think that's self-centered. If you disagree, certainly express your view, but don't assume someone was talking specifically about you, that's just silly.

That's something I can never figure out, iLander. Some people do seem to think any comment made is about them. I'm still laughing at a post of Kenny's ages ago -- subject was something about dying & Kenny made an observation, followed by, "Now, before someone says, 'How DARE you! I know somebody who died'...." Hit it right on the nail! I loved it.

No problem with disagreeing -- only when the disagree-er is in Postal Mode from the 1st word. Why is that necessary or satisfying? Name calling, accusing of disgraceful attitudes or motives, I've even seen (not here) things like, "Why don't you just die!" and often a post beginning with "Who made you the judge of the world.." when nobody mentioned judging the world -- that is pure aggression.

These aren't written by accident or unfamiliarity with English. They are crude, immature, & vicious -- to a person the writer never met, who wrote an opinion in calm language. It's the web equivalent of walking up to a stranger on the street & socking her in the nose; when she squawks, kicking her in the shins.

What's the satisfaction? I'm sincerely curious. Why not state your case without the maliciousness?

--- Laurie

 

[ForteKitty]

I call everyone and everything a-holes. Cat who tipped over the trash can, or dog (or shoes) that tripped me? a-holes. Friend that says something mean but I'm still laughing? a-hole. My friends and I don't use it in a bad way, so I forget that well mannered people shouldn't say it (or write it) out loud.

eta: but in my defense, I didn't call VL one, I said his post was. Still, I shouldn't have!

 

[JewelFreak]

I'm sure he understands your own special language!

--- Laurie

 

[iLander]

No problem with disagreeing -- only when the disagree-er is in Postal Mode from the 1st word. Why is that necessary or satisfying? Name calling, accusing of disgraceful attitudes or motives, I've even seen (not here) things like, "Why don't you just die!" and often a post beginning with "Who made you the judge of the world.." when nobody mentioned judging the world -- that is pure aggression.

These aren't written by accident or unfamiliarity with English. They are crude, immature, & vicious -- to a person the writer never met, who wrote an opinion in calm language. It's the web equivalent of walking up to a stranger on the street & socking her in the nose; when she squawks, kicking her in the shins.

What's the satisfaction? I'm sincerely curious. Why not state your case without the maliciousness?

--- Laurie

I think they're in pain. They're hurting and they can't lash out at the source of their pain (a boss, a spouse they're stuck with) so they lash out at everyone else. I'm talking specifically about people who strike out at the slightest provocation.

Then there's those who just lack empathy. They can't imagine themselves being hurt, have never been hurt, so they just hurt others without thinking. It reminds me of my son (uh-oh, another story from iLander . . . ) who was biting the kids in his pre-K class. No amount of talking to, time out or yelling would get him to stop. Then, one day, he bit me on the arm. So I bit him back (very lightly) on the arm. The shock on his face was profound. Then he burst out crying. And he never bit anyone again. He just didn't get that it hurt others when he did that. All he knew was they dropped the toy he wanted, or got out of his way, or whatever. He got positive reinforcement. He didn't understand that it was painful or scary to them.

I think a lot of people are like that. They don't get that words are painful to others. I do notice, though, that they can dish out but they can't take it. One Boo! from someone else, and they're all huffy.

 

[JewelFreak]

I do notice, though, that they can dish out but they can't take it. One Boo! from someone else, and they're all huffy.

It's part of the picture, isn't it? Exactly that I meant.

iLander, my mother bit me too! I remember it -- I was 4 & I guess I'd bitten my little brother a lot & wouldn't stop. Mom sat next to me & explained calmly that she'd tried everything & I didn't listen, so she was going to show me how it feels when someone bites you. She made it clear that she would not bite as hard as I did, so I had to imagine how much it hurt my bro. Then she bit my finger -- I recall that I barely felt it, but was so surprised & humiliated, of course I burst into wails. Ha! Did the trick though.

With my older brother she went further out of terror. When he was 6 he became fascinated with fire. Kept lighting matches, hunted them out wherever my parents hid them, lit them inside, in his room, & in the back yard. No punishment or scolding made any impression over weeks.

One Saturday they couldn't find him & searched the house. Dad finally discovered him hiding under the car in the garage, lighting matches. He sat directly beneath the gas tank! Whew, terrifying -- and my brother was defiant as usual. Mom was so scared, she went to her last resort -- explained that getting burned up hurt like crazy & she needed to give him an idea what he risked. A 6-yr-old has no concept of death or agony from mere description, so she lit a burner on the gas stove & held his hand over it, not long enough even to raise a blister, but enough so he felt a little pain. It got the point across to him; he stopped lighting matches from then on. A lot of little kids go through a fire phase & his got truly dangerous for him and the whole family. He's still just as stubborn, though!

--- Laurie