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Would you buy this diamond?!

Mark87

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
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14
THANKS for reading my topic!

My goal is similar to the one of most retail diamond buyers I guess: maximize optical performance to the naked eye. Particularly in terms of shining and how big the diamond appears.

I started with a 1.1ct D IF A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal diamond on Whiteflash. However I soon realized that the premium it carries is probably not worth it for me, as at the naked eye it would almost be impossible to see differences relative to a diamond with similar carat weight and cut, but slightly less perfect color and clarity.

I am not sure I should compromise on cut quality, so I decided to go down on colour and clarity for the benefit of budget and carat weight. But I don't know how low I can go on color and clarity before the light and size performance to the naked eye suffers from it.

And here I need your help.

Budget = $15,000 max
Cut = Superideal 000

I have selected this diamond from Whiteflash as my first choice: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701016.htm?a_aid=recommended#

-> So you think one would be able to see colour differences between the diamond above and this alternative one http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3588146.htm? In other terms, is the lower color grade worth the additional carat weight?

-> I have selected Whiteflash because I have become obsessed with light performance and thus superideal cut grades, where I understand Whiteflash's A CUT ABOVE® is the best. Should I relax my cut standards and look to other providers like, say, James Allen, again for the benefit of carat weight, if my goal is to maximize light performance and how big the diamond appears?

Any input you could give me would be HUGELY appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Mark
 

kenny

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Re: A CUT ABOVE® = A PRICE ABOVE? --------> Would you buy th

Your post, especially the title, comes across as a criticism of Whiteflash.

But your post reveals you discovered that a D IF is, "A PRICE ABOVE".
That's not really fair to Whiteflash.

I'd recommend editing your post and thread title if you are still in the 45-minute edit window.
After 45 minutes it's too late to edit, but you can click the 'Report Post' button at the top right and ask admin to edit it.

I have an ACA, and feel that cut is so good that they are totally worth the price.
But color and clarity comfort zones are personal.
Mine, may not be yours.
Those of the majority of people may not be yours.
Beware of posters here to arrogantly tell you what grades you should want/like/buy.

Discover your own clarity and comfort zones by viewing diamonds in person (and their price tags), but only those graded by GIA or AGS, since many other labs lie about color and clarity grades.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Aug 8, 2005
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40,198
Is this for you or for someone else.

Does it have to b D IF? If so, WHY does it have to be D IF.

And what does the wearer want?

If you want to talk about worthless premiums: D IF carries a huge one. I would not pay for a D IF ever. E VS2 is great and will look the same when set. And yes, the cutting being maximized is the premium that is worthwhile.

I think your priorities are a little off.
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Re: A CUT ABOVE® = A PRICE ABOVE? --------> Would you buy th

Unless you are buying for someone who is very color sensitive, consider going down in color.

Unless you are buying for someone who wants a "mind pure" stone (i.e., who is concerned about inclusions even if they can't be seen with the naked eye - and indeed, even if they are difficult to pick up under magnification) consider going down in clarity.

The question is not what we would buy but what you would buy. :wink2:

You do pay a premium for name-brand super-ideal cut stones. However, the cut does lead to superior diamond performance, and you're also paying for the assurances that come with the brand name. Finding a comparably superior cut without the brand name, while possible, takes time and work. (Remember that cut diamonds are graded and offered for sale by very experienced graders who are looking to get top dollar for their goods, and many of the best stones will be "pre-sorted" to premium vendors before they hit the market. Also that many of the branded diamonds are cut specifically for that vendor.)
 

Mark87

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
14
Thank you all for your comments!

The diamond would be for my girlfriend, it would go on the engagement ring.

It definitely doesn't need to be D IF.

I understand color and clarity are personal, and I can definitely test my own comfort zone in terms of these 2 characteristics, but the final consumer is my girlfriend, not me, so I would need to know her comfort zone (which I can't as I would like to keep this as a surprise till the proposal, of course).

Take, say, a F VS2 and an I SI2 (both cut to perfection, A CUT ABOVE by Whiteflash, and all other characteristics including carat weight being the same). If there is no difference to the naked eye then I would consider the I SI2 for similar carat weight and lower price (or higher carat weight and same price, alternatively).

-> I know it's hard to say and one should see the diamonds for real, and we are all different, but to the best of your knowledge and based on your experience, would the average person see any difference between these 2?


Thank you so much for your help

Mark
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
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Everyone is going to have their own opinion about what is a "safe" color and clarity. The best would be for your girlfriend to go in a store and compare different colors and clarity. For myself I had an H VS2 that was absolutely beautiful and my sweet spot. If you are worried about color sensitivity, go to F, G and VS2. That should be safe for 95% of people. Remember, an ideal cut is better at hiding color and inclusions than a poor cut. To tell the truth you could probably go even lower, but its a personal preference thing. I currently have a J SI1 CBI diamond. there are times I can see the tint but to me it does not detract from its beauty.
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
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Generally speaking color becomes noticeable under real world conditions around H. You will not be able to tell a D from an F once it is mounted.

Clarity is trickier because once you know where your inclusions are, you know how to find them. Some people are really bothered by something no one else ever sees. And every inclusion is different as well. Generally speaking, you cannot see a VS2 inclusion with the naked eye unless you are zooming in on it and know where to look. However there are exceptions, as clarity grades are not based on how easy an inclusion is to see. As a rule, an SI1 may or may not look clean, and an SI2 probably doesn't look clean.

As you are looking at Whiteflash stones, they can give you very accurate information about the inclusions.

Your choices are actually very safe. Your questions though sound like you are expecting to sort through a lot of stones to find one that performs better in life than on paper. James Allen sells stones that are just as well cut, but they haven't been vetted for you.
 

MissGotRocks

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12,220
Mark87|1469921347|4060961 said:
Thank you all for your comments!

The diamond would be for my girlfriend, it would go on the engagement ring.

It definitely doesn't need to be D IF.

I understand color and clarity are personal, and I can definitely test my own comfort zone in terms of these 2 characteristics, but the final consumer is my girlfriend, not me, so I would need to know her comfort zone (which I can't as I would like to keep this as a surprise till the proposal, of course).

Take, say, a F VS2 and an I SI2 (both cut to perfection, A CUT ABOVE by Whiteflash, and all other characteristics including carat weight being the same). If there is no difference to the naked eye then I would consider the I SI2 for similar carat weight and lower price (or higher carat weight and same price, alternatively).

-> I know it's hard to say and one should see the diamonds for real, and we are all different, but to the best of your knowledge and based on your experience, would the average person see any difference between these 2?


Thank you so much for your help

Mark
There are differences between the two. That's the reason for color and clarity grades. Side by side, you would probably be able to tell a difference in color. Side by side, you would probably be able to tell the difference in clarity as well - particularly under 10x magnification. Looked at individually, you may or may not be able to say that one of them looked enormously better than the other - that's where your personal preference comes in. With both stones being well cut, you might think that all you really notice is the sparkle. If you were comparing F color to a G color stone, not so much difference. You are talking about four color grades difference though between F color and I color.

Call Whiteflash and ask them to pull a couple of stones for you to make a video. It still is not as good as real life viewing but you might be able to get a better feel for the differences - at least in color.
 

pyramid

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Nov 10, 2002
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4,607
As you have chosen a diamond rather than a semi-precious stone, do you or your girlfriend like rarity.
A D IF is more rare than a I SI2.

As Kenny said above though it is personal preference. If you had the money would you buy the rarist car of a type or their
middle range version of the same type?

I prefer colorless and would not want lower but would sometimes pick it. I prefer VS1 and above but would go to VS2 sometimes.
I see color as starting at H but can see it in G if I look for it, even in a single stone not next to a colorless one.

My absolute would be no lower than G and no lower than VS2. I would not buy lower, unless I wanted an antique looking ring for a
dress ring then I may buy a halo with a M or lower diamond too look dark and like olden times with the lower lights and chandeliers. In fact I bought some glass beads that were treated to look antique looking for that reason.

I like the rarity in diamonds as I do in Gold, etc. so Rarity trumps value for money for me in a way. I would rather have smaller rare than a larger version which was just more of the same cheaper thing to be larger. E.G. Rather have a 75 point F than a 75 point L which has just 'enlarged' to be a 1.20 ct L. Say I had a 75 point L AND a 1.20 ct L, I would just think it is bigger but not any rarer or better in my mind than my smaller one.

See everyone thinks different must be a psychological thing. Also I am from the UK and I think we see size as not the be all end all as much over here, we want smaller and rarer. Although I think that is changing with the younger generations want to show off more.

If there is no rarity really considered in it, then why a diamond, is it because it is harder and won't cloud from scratches, is it to just look bigger with more FLASH, is it to impress people that you are rich and character could be anything, or not in it. Do we want to pretend we are the Queen or Royalty or are we insecure and that is why we need these diamonds instead of the grey metal jewellery people wear through their lip or ear. Has jewellery become like weddings, lot of money but only really a few people see it as important. I seem only a few who post here are in to rarity rather than big bling look unless they can afford both. I mean a 4 carat I SI2 will not be as rare or as expensive as Pippa Middleton's which is probably a E VVS1 or something.

Also I have read that top cut is only apparent side by side with other top of the range very good cuts. So if balancing out things, even if not going for size, would a very good cut not be okay when going to J SI1, this would also allow a large diamond if rarity of cut is not that important too.

Diamonds are supposed to be about balance, not one C above the rest. Cut Color Clarity dictates size 'they say'.

It is up to everyone what the choose and why I would rather have a 1 carat G-H VS1-2 than a 2 carat J SI1 any day even if the J cost a lot more.

Make your own mind up.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Remember though a much as there is good information here about cut as well as all other points, this board is biased towards cut, in the same way a previous board was biased towards clarity above anything else.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Dec 17, 2008
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21,683
I would go down to an H to pick up the extra size. I am not very color sensitive though and I consider "H" still fairly high. J/K
is where you get into some tint that may or may not be too much for me. I do own a small ideal branded J colored stone that
I have no issue with (it's in a pendant).

So here is the relative size difference on a size 6 1/2 finger...

wf_size_difference.png
 

AprilBaby

Super_Ideal_Rock
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My bottom limit is H VS2
 

breanne

Shiny_Rock
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I don't know if this will help at all, but I can see color variance starting around H/I, but it's not a negative thing, I can just tell the diamond starts to warm up around there, mostly when I hold the diamond on an angle. I actually chose to go down to J, even though I could see the warmth around H/I, it didn't mean the diamond was any less beautiful in my eyes. Generally, most people don't know much about diamonds, so when they see one, most wouldn't say, "oh look at the warmth of that stone," especially if it's cut ideally.

So, I chose cut above all else, because, that's why I wanted my diamond, to be as brilliant as possible, and I didn't mind a bit of warmth. The only reason why I could see that warmth was because I was being supercritical, otherwise, I probably wouldn't have too much. I went down to SI1, I was fortunate to have worked with someone who could view the stone before I did, and it was/is eye-clean, for me and my life, I don't need the rarest inclusion, or lackthereof, I live in a city here in Canada that probably wouldn't have an idea what I was talking about if I say VVS1, or color D. So, it's really what you think she'd care about, maybe you don't know her preference per se, but will she want to tell people how rare it is? Or do you think she cares more about size?

If she's the type to want to discuss every detail of the diamond, then yeah, I'd probably stick to higher color/clarity, but if she wants a stunning brilliant diamond in spite of how rare it is, then you could afford to lower both. This forum is great because not every diamond with lower colors or clarity are good, but people here can help weed out options for you. I love diamonds, and I can understand the rarity of having these type of specs. but at the end of the day for me, I really, really love my J SI1, and I was able to get almost 1.50 in both AGS and GIA ideal range. :wavey:
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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g/h in a round.with great light return is very white.
 

Mark87

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
14
Thank you everyone! All your comments are really helpful for me, much appreciated!
 

Mark87

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
14
I have shown the stone to a diamond expert with whom I have been put in touch and she told me that the inclusions on this stone are quite relevant and impossible to hide (even if with an excellent cut), so the light gets blocked on the diamond's table. And sparkle suffers as a result.

Is this true?


Just for convenience, the diamond I am talking about is this one: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701016.htm

Please let me know what you think! Thanks a lot!
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
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Mark87|1470264176|4062254 said:
I have shown the stone to a diamond expert with whom I have been put in touch and she told me that the inclusions on this stone are quite relevant and impossible to hide (even if with an excellent cut), so the light gets blocked on the diamond's table. And sparkle suffers as a result.

Is this true?


Just for convenience, the diamond I am talking about is this one: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701016.htm

Please let me know what you think! Thanks a lot!
On a VS2?!

That's extremely unlikely, and I don't see any evidence of it in the Idealscope pictures on the site.

Has this expert offered to sell you a better diamond? Has she clarified exactly why such small inclusions would block light?
 

Mark87

Rough_Rock
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Jul 30, 2016
Messages
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Ya I am surprised as well by her comment. I am going to see her personally in some days to find out more but so far that's all she said.

By the way, how do you see from the idealscope that an inclusion is visible or not?
 

Dancing Fire

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Mark87|1470264176|4062254 said:
I have shown the stone to a diamond expert with whom I have been put in touch and she told me that the inclusions on this stone are quite relevant and impossible to hide (even if with an excellent cut), so the light gets blocked on the diamond's table. And sparkle suffers as a result.

Is this true?


Just for convenience, the diamond I am talking about is this one: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701016.htm

Please let me know what you think! Thanks a lot!
Does your so called expert sell diamonds? I am an expert :praise: and I don't see any problem with this stone
 

John Pollard

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Mark87|1470264176|4062254 said:
I have shown the stone to a diamond expert with whom I have been put in touch and she told me that the inclusions on this stone are quite relevant and impossible to hide (even if with an excellent cut), so the light gets blocked on the diamond's table. And sparkle suffers as a result.

Is this true?
No. An AGS VS2 will have no light transmission issues. In addition to that failsafe, more selective vetting has been performed by in-house gemologists charged to protect the standards of a highly regarded brand. A diamond with any issues would have been rejected.
 

ChristineRose

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Mark87|1470264910|4062264 said:
Ya I am surprised as well by her comment. I am going to see her personally in some days to find out more but so far that's all she said.

By the way, how do you see from the idealscope that an inclusion is visible or not?
If the light is actually obstructed, there would be a dark area in the image. This is not the same as the inclusions just being visible and ugly. Most ugly inclusions have no detectable effect on the amount of sparkle. Inclusions bad enough to black light are rare and sometimes the make the stone so fragile that it really shouldn't be sold as a gem in the first place. You will NOT find that sort of thing at Whiteflash, although you might find some stones that have visible inclusions if you look hard enough.
 

newjourney

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Since the stone hasn't been sold, was that expert a Whiteflash in-house gemologist? I am curious.
 

foxinsox

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newjourney|1470272193|4062309 said:
Since the stone hasn't been sold, was that expert a Whiteflash in-house gemologist? I am curious.
Given Whiteflash label the stone eye clean plus their own imaging does not support the statement made by the "expert", I very much doubt the "expert" would have been a Whiteflash in-house gemologist. I would put money on the "expert" being someone who sells their own diamonds and is trying to secure themselves a profit.
 

Mark87

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Thanks all. The "expert" is someone I have been put in touch by a ring designer whom I had worked in the past with, and she said she knew this person who works in the diamond business. I will meet her in some days for the first time but I think she does sell diamonds, so a conflict of interest may be possible in that case of course.

The fact that none of you seems to agree with her is quite comforting I have to say...
 

Snowdrop13

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The inclusions look tiny on the certificate plot and Whiteflash have labelled it eye clean. This surely means they have actually taken a good look at it?
 

ChristineRose

Brilliant_Rock
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The expert will try to sell you another stone which won't sound nearly as good to you but which she will assure you is better.

A lot of ring designers strongly prefer to have you purchase a stone through them because they're afraid you'll show up with some wonky cut, too included to set, actually a fake, stone off of e-bay. It's even worse with colored gems because those come in so many different shapes and most of them are treated so much that they might as well be a gum machine plastic and glue toy. Anyhow that is not important here.
 
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