Would you buy an uncerted stone?

[Travelgal]

I found a vintage cushion cut diamond ring that is not certified. The ring itself is Art Deco and probably from the 20s or 30s. I had trouble locating any inclusions with a loupe so I think it is vs2+. The diamond itself has a little bit of color to it (probably k-m range), but I would expect some color in a vintage stone. That said, would you buy a vintage ring with no certification? The seller is willing to have it sent to GIA if I pay the cost. Is it worth it? The ring is $14k and the center stone is 2.2ish. Alternatively, I plan on going to single stone to look at them making a ring for me. I expect that it will be significantly more expensive, but will have the paperwork and craftsmanship (and reputation). Would you risk a non-certified stone for a few thousand dollars savings? It will be my engagement ring and my boyfriend is open to whatever I choose.

Thanks in advance for you help.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I would not buy a ring that expensive without one. And as far as the seller having you pay for the cert, that has to be your choice. I would only do it if it was a really great value and I really loved the diamond. Tough call.

 

[kenny]

One diamond may be worth several times another that looks the same to you or I.
A GIA report identifies all the stuff that affects value.
It converts uncertainty to certainty, a good idea when lots of money is at stake.

Would you risk a non-certified stone for a few thousand dollars savings?

NO!
IMO it is naive to think the seller may have priced it a few thousand dollars low, instead of a few thousand dollars high.

Chances are sellers know a diamond's true specs, but hope you don't.
GIA removes the gamble, and when it comes to gambling the odds are always with the house.

 

[Clairitek]

If the stone comes back with a very high clarity grade would the vendor increase the price on you? Same with the opposite of the clarity grade is lower than you're expecting.

 

[Niel]

I have bought an uncerted stone and i will again I'm sure. I was for a stone under 1k though. Something this expensive id want more info.

 

[msop04]

If the stone comes back with a very high clarity grade would the vendor increase the price on you? Same with the opposite of the clarity grade is lower than you're expecting.

This is what I was wondering about... what if it came back with an amazing GIA or AGS report? Would he wanna "give it away" or would he "recalculate" the price?

I think I would definitely buy an uncerted stone if the price was right.

 

[Travelgal]

Thank you all for your responses... you have hit on all my concerns (risk/gamble, change of price, etc.). I guess it comes down to not really knowing what I am buying and feeling uncomfortable with it (especially as an engagement ring). I am not really after a "deal," but rather a ring that I will have forever and that I can pass down. The center stone has chunky sparkle and the shape I like, so I keep second guessing myself. If it was certed, I would have bought it no problem... that way I would at least know the exact color, where the inclusions were and any chips.

I finally figured out how to upload a picture of the ring.

 

[heididdl]

Send it to GIA cost you $150.... If you send it in yourself and set up an account which is too easy you'll get it back in 3-5 days I just did mine two weeks ago.

 

[tyty333]

I bought a $330 uncertified OEC but I would not spend $14k on something without knowing what it was.

 

[kenny]

If it was certed, I would have bought it no problem... that way I would at least know the exact color, where the inclusions were and any chips.

To me it's not just being sure about the stone itself, it's about how known specs help determine what price is groovy.

 

[ihy138]

We purchased an uncerted old European cut diamond for my engagement ring. After I bought it, I was allowed time to bring it to my jeweler's for an appraisal before the return period was up. I felt just as comfortable with this as a GIA report because I trust my jeweler (he deals a lot with older diamonds) and have brought many stones there in the past for their review. Would this be an option for you, just to get a sense of the value of the ring? I think I would only have mine certed if I decided to resell it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would also want to get an independent appraisal so I wouldn't have to remove the stone from the setting.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Also, have you bargained with them to get the price down? I think the price might be on the high side if it is M-N color and uncerted. You need to get the price down before you get the appraisal in case the appraisal turns out better than you think.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I am not liking the way that diamond looks in that photo. Do you have other photos? My "bad cut" spidey senses are tingling. And if its not well cut, then everything else is moot.

I bought a $10k diamond ring from an estate seller on ebay with no lab report. The color and clarity grades were of course WAY off -- G Si1 = K Si1/Si2. I negotiated a price adjustment after the fact based on that difference, and I am satisfied with what I paid. I think I paid a fair price for an estate piece of these specs. I know that Lang's would have offered it for $13.5k in their store if I had sold it to them for the pittance they offered me!

In the end I probably got a bit of a deal. But with old cuts, you cannot just look at a menu and order one up with the exact style of cut you love. Sometimes, you have to take some small, well-thought-out risks to get what you are after. I have never seen another diamond that looks just like mine, and the cut and setting are exatly what I want. Even if I over-spent by a thousand or so I would have been ok with it because the unique characterisitics of my diamond are worth that premium. Cut quality and rarity affect the value of old cuts in a manner that is hard to quantify. The market is quite different than the market for MRBs.

That said, if the seller is willing to send it to GIA then do it. Get in writing the purported color and clarity grades, and get in writing the fact that you can renegotiate price when the report comes back. Also get in writing that you do not have to pay for the report if it comes back more than X cumulative grades different than the purported specs.

ETA: And bargain HARD if its a true estate place. Think: 20-40% below asking depending how big your cojones are.

 

[Dreamer_D]

By the way, so not trust your guess on color unless you are a GIA graduate I find it nearly impossible to "grade" a stone below KL color -- it all just looks "warm" or "tinted" face up. So the stone could be O-P or even Q-R and then you will get a shocker re: price because prices take a DIVE below N. Another PSers bought a diamond from ebay that was supposed to be a K color. She has seen a lot of diamonds and obviously thought it was lovely, if warm, when set. She thought it might be a K or close! She unset the diamond and sent it to GIA. Guess what? It was an S-T. Which means that the value was much much less than what it would have been as a K, or even and LM. My point -- WE cannot judge color, of old cuts especially. So don't take a chance.

 

[tyty333]

It does look a little on the "flat " side in that picture. Nicely cut old stones tend to be deep with high crowns.
It could just be the picture. Like DD said...more pictures would really help.

 

[Travelgal]

Let me just start by saying THANK YOU for all of your input. I did not think of having all of the stats agreed upon prior to certification and/or independent appraisal. I also wasn't thinking about an appraisal for insurance purposes, so all of your advice has been extremely helpful and appreciated.

I had a really hard time taking pictures with my iphone, so this is the best I've got.



Since this will be my engagement ring, I agree that spending a couple thousand dollars extra for a great stone/ring is worth it. I have also had my eye on this ring for some time, but it (again) looks a little dark in the pictures and I am a bit nervous to buy a ring unseen. Thoughts? Ultimately I'd like an old European or cushion cut between 1.5-2.5 carats. I have small fingers so low profile and solitaire-ish settings look the best on my fingers.

http://shop.erstwhilejewelry.com/product/1-65-carat-diamond-vintage-engagement-ring

Again, thank you all for your input.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I have purchased and will continue to purchase uncerted stones. However, I feel more comfortable because I have a ton of other GIA graded stones that I can essentially use as master stones to compare color too. I have also seen enough to make a rough judgement on value of the diamond myself.

With that said, old stones often don't come with certifications. If the seller is willing to send it off, I think you really should take them up on it. Gives you a piece of mind. Hard to make judgement of the diamond in the photos provided. But I don't have the "bad" sense like Dreamer does. I think it can be nice especially for a cushion shaped diamond - much harder to find a nicely cut one than OEC.

 

[tyty333]

Do you have any profile pics you can post. Those pictures aren't that good (I know, it's hard to take pics of diamonds ).

 

[arkieb1]

Here is a price comparison for reference, the stone is a similar cut to your second link it is 1.91 carats a certified L VS2 (although it is EGL USA which is common with older cuts) and it is $10 700;

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/vintage-and-antique/1-91ct-old-european-cut-diamond-solitaire.html#.UzAkgO0Vq5Q

The diamond in the setting you like with all of the pics looks flat and shallow cut, but it might be the angle you took the first pic. I personally would either spend the money for the piece of mind and get the vendor to send it to GIA to get it certified for you or send it to a reliable appraiser like Dave Atlas that has lots of experience with old cuts, not just for the information on what you are buying and how much it should cost, but also if it is a decent cut.

I would buy an uncertified stone - but it has taken me a long while and looking at many many stones to get to a point where I have a good basic understanding of what I am looking at. If I was not sure I would always get either an Independent appraisal from a respected appraiser or the stone certified, or both if possible.

 

[denverappraiser]

GIA will not grade mounted stones. This means that there are some other costs, and some other risks, to be considered if you go that route. The stone needs to be pulled and reset and any prong damage from the process will need to be repaired.

Don’t forget shipping and insurance. If you don’t happen to live in NYC or Carlsbad, you will need to ship it in and back and this can cost as much as the GIA fees. Currently they’re quoting a 10 week turnaround. Rush service is available for double price but is currently only available in California. Assuming you pay the rush fee and don’t walk it in to them, expect this path to cost $500-$600 and take 2 weeks.

Establish the ‘what if’ sorts of scenarios. As mentioned above, it’s possible to come back better than you’re expecting but the more important question is what if it comes back lower? Is the deal off or discounted? Who covers the fees? What about minor attributes like symmetry, fluorescence and polish? If you care, make sure the seller knows these are on the table as well.

 

[SB621]

Yes I have bought uncerted stones and will also continue to buy in the future. My 5ct still does not have a lab report on it. One day I will get around to it. With that said I have always had them certed by GIA or taken them to an independant appraiser to just verify the stats. I typically always pay way under market value (thank you ebay) so even if they aren't as described they are close enough to insure I didn't overpay for something that wasn't there. With all that said, I wouldn't recommend this route to many. If this is your ering and you ilke the stone then go have it certed. It will costs you shipping, report and mounting- less then $250. Just make sure the price you nego. won't go up if the stats come back in your favor. If they go down you don't have to purchase.

 

[denverappraiser]

GIA’s fee for 2.0-2.99 carat stones is $169 plus a small handling fee.

Double that for rush service if you don't want to wait 'til June.

Insured shipping will be $50 - $100 per direction depending on how it’s done and how much insurance you want.

How much to pull and reset a 2 carat? It’s going to depend on who does the work but $100 is a reasonable guess without more information. Problem jobs or high end craftsmen can easily be more than that. On the other hand, the seller might do it for ‘free’.

 

[Travelgal]

Thank you all again for your advice. This has been a good experience for me to learn that I am not knowledgeable enough to make a decision on this particular ring and that it's a better idea to pass on it. My gut told me it was a gorgeous ring but something was holding me back from actually purchasing it. In this instance, it doesn't seem worthwhile to pull the stone out, send to GIA as it would add additional cost and time. Maybe in the future I will have enough knowledge/experience to buy an uncerted stone, but this will be a pass. Again thank you all.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Good decision. I also think the price was too high, given that is it likely a M or more tinted diamond.

I have noticed that prices at OEW and Grace's and Erica's new stores are really reasonable for larger diamonds in the mid-tinted range. You can buy from a reputable vendor and save yourself the hassel.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Thank you all again for your advice. This has been a good experience for me to learn that I am not knowledgeable enough to make a decision on this particular ring and that it's a better idea to pass on it. My gut told me it was a gorgeous ring but something was holding me back from actually purchasing it. In this instance, it doesn't seem worthwhile to pull the stone out, send to GIA as it would add additional cost and time. Maybe in the future I will have enough knowledge/experience to buy an uncerted stone, but this will be a pass. Again thank you all.

Yeah, $14K is a lot to spend on something that doesn't come with a certificate. There are so many beautiful diamonds out there. You'll find the right one!

 

[msop04]

We purchased an uncerted old European cut diamond for my engagement ring. After I bought it, I was allowed time to bring it to my jeweler's for an appraisal before the return period was up. I felt just as comfortable with this as a GIA report because I trust my jeweler (he deals a lot with older diamonds) and have brought many stones there in the past for their review. Would this be an option for you, just to get a sense of the value of the ring? I think I would only have mine certed if I decided to resell it.

Sooo... was the jeweler and the one who appraised it the same person?

 

[ihy138]

We purchased an uncerted old European cut diamond for my engagement ring. After I bought it, I was allowed time to bring it to my jeweler's for an appraisal before the return period was up. I felt just as comfortable with this as a GIA report because I trust my jeweler (he deals a lot with older diamonds) and have brought many stones there in the past for their review. Would this be an option for you, just to get a sense of the value of the ring? I think I would only have mine certed if I decided to resell it.

Sooo... was the jeweler and the one who appraised it the same person?

My jeweler did appraise it, but he wasn't the one who sold it to me. He had no skin in the game.

 

[4_cs]

The timing of this thread is perfect for me. Made me stop and reevaluate a purchase. Well that and the advice of Gypsy.

 

[CharmyPoo]

EGL-USA and EGL-Canada are also potential options that will grade stones mounted. In Canada, it costs me under $100 to get a stone graded. I have tried it 4 times now comparing EGL-Canada and GIA results. All 4 times - GIA was one grade lower for color and bang on for clarity.