Worried About James Allen Purchase

[Lorelei4444]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post under my new member name (forgot my old one), but I've been a Pricescope lurker for a long time now. My fiance purchased a James Allen diamond and ring setting for our engagement this past December 2014. The diamond is a 1.01ct VS1 J stone with ideal AGS-rated cut. The ring arrived, and I liked it, but I was troubled that I couldn't locate the ID # on the diamond girdle. I took it for an appraisal and the appraiser (GIA graduate) couldn't locate the inscription either. He said it might be behind one of the prongs, but still, this troubled me.

Secondly, the diamond we purchased appraised (retail) only a few hundred above the price we paid for it. The wholesale appraisal of the diamond was far below what we paid. The entire ring appraised (again, retail) for exactly what we paid for it. So we didn't really get a good deal at James Allen; we ended up paying retail.

This disappoints me because of all the hype around JA offering such great diamond prices. I know a fair amount about gems and diamonds, and we shopped carefully by diamond specs and cut measurements. Let the Buyer Beware!

When I wrote to James Allen (we will call soon to speak to them further), they immediately blamed the appraiser. They also had an unresponsive attitude, which leads me to wonder if they only care about their customers before the sale. It's too bad, and it taints what should be a great experience for us.

Now we have to consider whether to return the ring. I really like it, but we were expecting a good deal from James Allen. If we wanted to pay retail, we would have gone to a retail seller and saved ourselves this hassle. We should be able to get a good deal elsewhere, according to the reviews of the many online diamond sellers I've seen.

My fiance is a writer, and I'll consider asking him to write about our experience with James Allen on all the online review sites.

Anyone have any suggestions for an online dealer where one can *really* get a good deal on diamonds? None of this "we pretend to offer great deals but you end up paying retail" situation? Thanks in advance.

 

[Dancing Fire]

How much did you pay for the stone?

 

[littleweight]

I can't comment on anything other than does your AGS report show the diamond girdle has been inscribed?

Note that if it does, the inscription is probably hidden behind the setting if its already set.

 

[denverappraiser]

You’ve got a couple of topics here.

Firstly, JA is a retailer. They sell things one at a time directly to the end consumer. That’s the DEFINITION of a retailer. That said, they are pretty price aggressive folks, which leads me to your appraisal. That’s my field anyway.

With most appraisals the definition of value for insurance replacement type work is what it would be reasonably expected to cost to replace the item with another one like it new, at retail, locally. That may or may not be what your own appraiser said but their own definition should be written in the ‘fine print’ of the appraisal report. Read it. That’s full of problem words too. Not all stores charge the same after all. Your insurer gets to choose where to replace it in the case of a loss, and they probably won’t choose the most expensive store in town, especially if you didn't buy it there in the first place. As an insured you want to fund it for replacement in a typical sort of marketplace for the item at hand. Usually that’s more than the Internet specialty people but not always. Again, that’s a question for your appraiser. What market is he/she using as ‘retail’? What are they using for comps?

Then there’s the issue of understanding what you actually have. It’s not clear if your appraiser is questioning if it’s the same stone as what’s described on the AGS paperwork. Not all AGS graded stones have a girdle inscription by the way. It says under the comments section of their report if it does and if it was there when they looked at it. There are usually other clues to match a stone to a grading report. That doesn’t directly affect value but, obviously, if they’re saying it’s the wrong stone it most definitely would. Is this an issue here?

You also mentioned a ‘wholesale’ appraisal. That’s equally problematic. It’s not like electronics or cars where there’s some manufacturer that sets the price and the whole distribution chain feeds from there. The rough market is insanely complicated and cutters charge whatever they want from there. There are price guides out there but they’re far from carved in stone. As with the above, read the definition of value carefully. It’s important if you want to understand what they’re telling you. They may or may not be correctly answering the question, but if you don’t even understand the question, you’re completely lost.

 

[Rhea]

As a customer, you cannot expect to buy a single diamond from a retailer expecting to pay wholesale prices. If you want wholesale prices, you need to be a wholesaler with all that that entails.

If the ring appraised for what you paid for it, I don't understand why you're concerned. You got what you paid for and aren't paying inflated insurance prices when you submit your appraisal to your insurance company.

There's no such thing as a really good deal on a diamond from a retailer, which is exactly what JA is, a retailer who sells to the public. You might be able to hunt out a buried treasure in an auction, from a second-hand dealer or pawn shop, but you're not going to get a really good deal buying from JA. Just a much nicer diamond with a lot more information on it for a much lower price as compared to a mall or chain store. If you aren't happy with your ring and believe you could do better, return it and start searching for that real great deal in your local often overlooked pawn shops.

 

[Lorelei4444]

I was given the impression the appraiser was giving a retail appraisal for local brick and mortar retailers, but I'll clarify that with him.

We paid $6k for the stone.

 

[tyty333]

Appraisals are notorious for being way over bloated. They give you a value for your stone/setting that if you need to replace you
could go to the most expensive place in the world and have it replaced. Does this make you feel good and think you got a "deal"...
yes! But is this good for insurance? Only if you like to give your insurance company lots of your money. Some insurance companies
wont insure for this over inflated amount because they know what the stone is actually worth.

Is your 1 carat J stone really worth $12k that an appraiser might say its worth? No, not when you can go down the street and
replace it for $7k.

It sounds like your appraiser gave you the current value of the stone/setting which is good for insurance purposes.

If you want that "we got a great deal" feel you can try taking to a different appraiser and ask for the full retail value
at a high-end Rodeo Drive Jeweler.

If you post stats or links, we can tell you if we think you overpaid.

 

[denverappraiser]

I was given the impression the appraiser was giving a retail appraisal for local brick and mortar retailers, but I'll clarify that with him.

We paid $6k for the stone.

You don't need to tell us but, again, it's important to understand what store(s) he's talking about. The gift shop at the Ritz is going to cost more than the guys working out of the back of an SUV. Both fall into the category of brick and mortar stores. There ARE B&M stores that can and will match JA's prices, but they're atypical to say the least. A 1.01/J/VS1/AGS000 is not an easy buy at $6000. Is there somebody somewhere who might have one? Sure. But that's not the question the appraiser is answering, is it?

 

[Lorelei4444]

I posted this repose, but it seemed to have gotten lost in the ether, so I'll repost.

I'm concerned because the appraiser couldn't locate the AGS inscription # that should be on the girdle of the diamond, according to our AGS certificate.

I never expected to pay wholesale price for a diamond. But we shopped online to get a better price than typical retail; many consumers shop online for diamonds for this reason. I was under the impression I would get a better price than that at JA.

 

[Lorelei4444]

tyty333, it's true what you're saying about not getting an inflated appraisal, and the benefits of that.

 

[baroque]

I think I understand what you are thinking, when you are talking about "a deal".
Shopping online has it's downside, obviously the biggest one is that you can't see it in person, or see a line up of stones to compare, so you limit your choices to what you believe by the information provided to you, and hope you love it..and the upside is hopefully a bigger selection, quality and better pricing than a B&M store, that's what I would expect. Am I looking to score a double the value? No, but I'm looking for some savings...translating, for me, into a bigger-brighter stone than I could afford at the local jeweler. I think that's what I'm understanding you were thinking as well.

To the point of the appraisal, yes, you have to be careful. And asking what they are quoting you. We learned the hard way that a retail appraisal wasn't what we should have insured the stone for...when making a claim, we received far less than the appraisal, due to the "we can find a replacement for these stats for $X and that's what you get"...so now we know.

When I have my new ring, do I hope for it to appraise for more than my total expenditure? Yes, I do, but will I insure it for retail? Nope. Just my 2 cents.

 

[maccers]

I posted this repose, but it seemed to have gotten lost in the ether, so I'll repost.

I'm concerned because the appraiser couldn't locate the AGS inscription # that should be on the girdle of the diamond, according to our AGS certificate.

I never expected to pay wholesale price for a diamond. But we shopped online to get a better price than typical retail; many consumers shop online for diamonds for this reason. I was under the impression I would get a better price than that at JA.

You'd have to unmount the stone to double check that the inscription is/isn't under the prongs. Who set the stone? JA? or someone else? Typically, stones with inscriptions are set so that the inscription is accessible while mounted.

 

[marymm]

OP - I am curious - is your appraiser an independent professional appraiser? Or does he work in a jewelry store? Honestly, from everything you've posted, I'd be more concerned with your choice of appraiser than your choice of JA.

 

[denverappraiser]

I continue to think this has more to do with your appraiser than JA, and I'm not even convinced they did you wrong.

If what they’re saying is that you could replace the piece, today, for exactly what you paid yesterday, that’s quite possibly correct (maybe not, I haven't checked). And if you can replace it for that, there’s a pretty good chance your insurer can too. That’s not exactly the usual way this works but it’s not nuts. It is, for example, the way it’s done with branded items where the replacement has to be back with the original brand seller. If you buy a ring from Tiffany, the replacement value is what Tiffany would charge for another one like it. Assuming not much time has elapsed and the item is still available, that’s probably the same as the transaction price.

It sounds like JA treated you just fine. It even sounds like the appraiser treated you fine, although there seems to be something of a disconnect between what they’re saying, what you think they’re saying, and what you expected them to say. Talk to them about it.

By the way, usually it's not very hard to rotate a stone in the setting. Your original setter will probably do it for free if you ask them but you can probably get someone else to do it for a few dozen dollars and I'm guessing JA isn't local to you. Having work done on it by a 3rd party may alter your warranty so don't have it done without talking to them first but it's entirely possible that they can get that part of the problem resolved fairly easily.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

If you want to know what a local retailer will charge, why don't you contact a local retailer and just ask them what a stone with your stats (esp the AGS000) will cost? IMO online retailers like JA offer "fair" pricing. They are very competitive and you are paying market price for what the stone is worth.

 

[liaerfbv]

You are being ridiculous.

You were happy with the ring, the price you paid for the ring, the performance of the stone - until an appraiser told you the stone was worth... exactly what you paid for it.

There are no retailers where you "actually get a good deal" vs "thinking you're getting a good deal and then end up paying retail" because no matter where you buy a diamond, you are actually paying retail.

 

[WillyDiamond]

Did JA set the stone or did another jeweler? When I first had my wife ring set in a solataire setting, the AGS inscription was set between the prongs so I could see it with a loupe. Most jewelers I think do that or perhaps you have to ask. Now that it is set in a halo setting, of course you cannot see the inscription. So the question is what kind of setting are we talking about here? Would love to see a picture of the finished product.

If you are not 100% happy, and can still return the stone to JA, then you might want to do that.

Oh, one more thing......buying a diamond is like other purchases, "you get what you pay for", there are no deals.

 

[Rockdiamond]

You've gotten a lot of great advice so far Lorelei.

From my perspective as someone who is heavily involved in both the wholesale and retail end of the diamond business, I can tell you that there's really no "deals". If you shop with a well established seller, you get what you pay for in most cases.
On the other hand pretty much all the stones being offered by the "big boys"- the largest virtual diamond sites- are being offered to the public at what used to be "wholesale" prices.
In that manner, almost every stone on these sites is a huge "deal" compared to how diamonds used to be bought by consumers 10 years ago.
Appraisals are totally arbitrary- the dollar number assigned to a diamond can vary greatly based on so many variables that any estimate of price is not valid if you change any condition of the sale.

 

[2Neezers]

I posted this repose, but it seemed to have gotten lost in the ether, so I'll repost.

I'm concerned because the appraiser couldn't locate the AGS inscription # that should be on the girdle of the diamond, according to our AGS certificate.

I never expected to pay wholesale price for a diamond. But we shopped online to get a better price than typical retail; many consumers shop online for diamonds for this reason. I was under the impression I would get a better price than that at JA.

I am in the process of purchasing a upgraded stone and setting from James Allen and was told by the phone rep that it is standard for them to set the stone so that the laser inscription is visible. If your stone is laser inscribed and they set it for you, you should be able to locate the inscription according to what I was told by the rep.
Did your appraiser try to find the inscription using a hand held loupe? I was unable to see the inscription on my originally stone using a loupe, so I took it to a local jeweler and they found it right away using a big Jewelers microscope they had set up on their counter. If the appraiser couldn't find the inscription, you might want to try taking your ring to a reputable local jeweler who has a microscope to see if they can find it for you.

 

[MollyMalone]

Well, I'm baffled as to why you're ready to start posting excoriating comments "on all the online review sites" since
* unlike the con artist touts in the Diamond District who pose as wholesalers in order to lure the naive and uninformed into thinking a uniquely awesome deal is to be had, James Allen does not misrepresent itself to consumers as a wholesaler; in fact, JA says, in red letters, at the top of every one of their web pages RISK-FREE RETAIL
* you "know a fair amount about gems and diamonds, and we shopped carefully"
and
* you "really like the ring" (whose diamond was appraised for more than its purchase price).

It may be that the lasered inscription is errantly concealed, but that kind of setting snafu can happen with a ring purchased from a B&M jewelry store or another online vendor. And it's not an irreparable or costly-to-you mistake.

So it's not obvious to me what the "hassle" is (unless you didn't get the appraisal done soon enough to be able to return the ring for a full refund & start over, if you're now thinking you can do better).

 

[heididdl]

OP - I am curious - is your appraiser an independent professional appraiser? Or does he work in a jewelry store? Honestly, from everything you've posted, I'd be more concerned with your choice of appraiser than your choice of JA.

Marymm this is what i wanted to ask as well. Everyone brags I'm GIA appraiser. Yeah so is everyone else. Are they independant or do they work for a retailer that may have like to sell you the stone

Also you pay so much for insurance so you sort of want to base yur insurance on what you paid for the ring or if you were to replace it in a retail market.

I recently recertified my 3.66 EC and then had it reappraised The recertrification came back exactly as it was certified 20 years ago. however this appraiser appraised it for $25,000 more than the one that I've been paying insurance for . So the questtion is I already pay $750 a year for the insurance and thank god it has never been used in the 25 year life of the ring ....Do I up the insurance by $25,000 and keep paying premiums. I looked on price scope tool and saw similar stones were selling at what i am currently insured at and I decided to keep it this way I don't want to pay over $1000 a year .

Finally, I agree with others JA is very competitive and I am sure you paid a fair price for your stone. Regarding the inscription. ask JA where it is looocaated and if it reallly is inscribed.

 

[KobiD]

Beating the horse some more! Can you send us a link or the AGS document number. Unless if it explicitly states that the diamond has been inscribed under the comments section, then your diamond won't be inscribed. If it states it has and they still can't find it, double check the setting as suggested above. Does the setting cover significant areas of the girdle. Finally, check the inclusion map, and get someone with the right gear and a good eye to check it over.

My AGS000 is from JA. It does not have any incriptions, its also a VS1 and only .62ct, but with a macro lense and some photos I can easily match it up to its picture as shown on the JA website.

How much did JA's internal appraiser value the stone at?

Like others, I don't particularly see the issue here. If you want it appraised for more, find an appraiser and work with them. At the end of the day used jewellery is never worth what you paid for it when new, so why stress over it. A strong appraisal doesn't mean you'll be able to sell it for more later down the track, and if too high you'll simply pay a premium on your insurance.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'll have to agree that it sounds like you had a good appraiser! I like to insure my retail diamonds for exactly what I paid until such a time that diamond prices have risen to a point that it makes sense to reappraise. At vendors like James Allen, you pay a fair price. There are plenty of local jewelers that would have charged you more for that diamond. But when the insurance replaces it, they get lower prices than we would anyway, so there is no point in insuring for more than the item is worth.

All diamonds do not have an inscription as others have said. Are you sure your report says the girdle is inscribed?

 

[WillyDiamond]

OP - I am curious - is your appraiser an independent professional appraiser? Or does he work in a jewelry store? Honestly, from everything you've posted, I'd be more concerned with your choice of appraiser than your choice of JA.

Marymm this is what i wanted to ask as well. Everyone brags I'm GIA appraiser. Yeah so is everyone else. Are they independant or do they work for a retailer that may have like to sell you the stone

Also you pay so much for insurance so you sort of want to base yur insurance on what you paid for the ring or if you were to replace it in a retail market.

I recently recertified my 3.66 EC and then had it reappraised The recertrification came back exactly as it was certified 20 years ago. however this appraiser appraised it for $25,000 more than the one that I've been paying insurance for . So the questtion is I already pay $750 a year for the insurance and thank god it has never been used in the 25 year life of the ring ....Do I up the insurance by $25,000 and keep paying premiums. I looked on price scope tool and saw similar stones were selling at what i am currently insured at and I decided to keep it this way I don't want to pay over $1000 a year .

Finally, I agree with others JA is very competitive and I am sure you paid a fair price for your stone. Regarding the inscription. ask JA where it is looocaated and if it reallly is inscribed.

If the ring is lost, the insurance company is not giving you money to replace at 3.66ct EC stone per the description of the appraisal. The most they will pay is the last appraisal they have on the books which sound like was done 20 yrs ago or so. So that will mean you will have to come out of pocket to replace a 3.66ct stone. Well, that is where insurance comes in and it is a crap shoot. Sure if you never had a claim, and you did not lose the ring, you are way ahead. However, if you have a claim, you are going to be one unhappy camper. So you want to get your monies worth? Right? Well, just as there are no deals on diamonds, there are no deals on insurance. Certainly if you can afford to come out of pocket for the difference than your stategy is correct. If it will cause a financial burden then you were wrong. Insurance is about paying "a little" to get alot back for an unlikely event. If it was a very likely or predictable event, then companies would not insure diamond rings. Best of luck whatever you do.

 

[tyty333]

OP - I am curious - is your appraiser an independent professional appraiser? Or does he work in a jewelry store? Honestly, from everything you've posted, I'd be more concerned with your choice of appraiser than your choice of JA.

Marymm this is what i wanted to ask as well. Everyone brags I'm GIA appraiser. Yeah so is everyone else. Are they independant or do they work for a retailer that may have like to sell you the stone

Also you pay so much for insurance so you sort of want to base yur insurance on what you paid for the ring or if you were to replace it in a retail market.

I recently recertified my 3.66 EC and then had it reappraised The recertrification came back exactly as it was certified 20 years ago. however this appraiser appraised it for $25,000 more than the one that I've been paying insurance for . So the questtion is I already pay $750 a year for the insurance and thank god it has never been used in the 25 year life of the ring ....Do I up the insurance by $25,000 and keep paying premiums. I looked on price scope tool and saw similar stones were selling at what i am currently insured at and I decided to keep it this way I don't want to pay over $1000 a year .

Finally, I agree with others JA is very competitive and I am sure you paid a fair price for your stone. Regarding the inscription. ask JA where it is looocaated and if it reallly is inscribed.

If the ring is lost, the insurance company is not giving you money to replace at 3.66ct EC stone per the description of the appraisal. The most they will pay is the last appraisal they have on the books which sound like was done 20 yrs ago or so. So that will mean you will have to come out of pocket to replace a 3.66ct stone. Well, that is where insurance comes in and it is a crap shoot. Sure if you never had a claim, and you did not lose the ring, you are way ahead. However, if you have a claim, you are going to be one unhappy camper. So you want to get your monies worth? Right? Well, just as there are no deals on diamonds, there are no deals on insurance. Certainly if you can afford to come out of pocket for the difference than your stategy is correct. If it will cause a financial burden then you were wrong. Insurance is about paying "a little" to get alot back for an unlikely event. If it was a very likely or predictable event, then companies would not insure diamond rings. Best of luck whatever you do.

She said she found similar stones online at the price it is currently insured for (which she has been paying for 20 years). So it was
probably over-insured 20 years ago (I'm guessing) but now it's insured for what its worth and what it can be replaced for.

 

[WillyDiamond]

TYTY333---
Please reread her post.....she said it was appraised same color, clarity, etc, but the appraiser has it $25,000 higher than what she bought it for 20 years ago. So her ring is appraised by the insurance carrier from the values 20 years ago,not current market value. Hard to believe that it is the same price on the market as 20 years ago.

 

[Lorelei4444]

Am I looking to score a double the value? No, but I'm looking for some savings...translating, for me, into a bigger-brighter stone than I could afford at the local jeweler. I think that's what I'm understanding you were thinking as well.

To the point of the appraisal, yes, you have to be careful. And asking what they are quoting you. We learned the hard way that a retail appraisal wasn't what we should have insured the stone for...when making a claim, we received far less than the appraisal, due to the "we can find a replacement for these stats for $X and that's what you get"...so now we know.

-Yes. we were under the impression that one can purchase more diamond for the money at James Allen. My use of the word "retail" may have been misleading. Yes, the retail price for the diamond the appraiser gave us was a bit more than we paid, but the entire ring appraised for the exact amount we paid. I wasn't expecting an insane appraisal amount, maybe something a little closer to the appraisal JA themselves sent me with the ring (which was a few thousand higher). Rhetorically, if my own appraisal was fair, why would JA's appraisal be so much higher? What is their appraisal criteria, and why not send an appraisal for exactly the amount we paid? JA's appraisal can't be called independent. So we have some clarification to get about both appraisals.

Our AGS certificate states there should be a number inscribed on the diamond girdle. It states that explicitly and clearly. We'll speak to a JA associate about where the inscription is, since the diamond was set and examined by a JA jeweler before it was sent out. The diamond we purchased should be exactly as described. This combination of the lower appraisal and the missing ID # increased my concern in this situation.

For us, in this situation, dealing with shipping was a hassle, and not being able to see the ring in person before purchasing was a risk. Your mileage may vary, but we're all entitled to our own experiences. All said, we're not soured on buying online. We've done it before, and never had any lasting issues. We'll get more clarification.

Thanks for all the responses. They've given us some things to consider, especially about the appraisal issue.

 

[Lorelei4444]

But when the insurance replaces it, they get lower prices than we would anyway, so there is no point in insuring for more than the item is worth.

-Good thing to know. Thanks.

 

[darkfury18]

How did you and the appraiser search for the inscription? Mine is only visible at 60x when l the ight hits it at the right angle. Otherwise it's basically invisible.

 

[enbcfsobe]

I understand wanting to find the girdle inscription and hope you are able to confirm it.

I can't speak to the appraisal amount, and think you have gotten great advice about what follow up questions to ask your appraiser. I have a strong sense that either their was some miscommunication about what type of appraisal you wanted or that the appraiser had some motive (i.e. wanting to sell you another stone) to deflate your impression of your purchase.

I think you may have misunderstood about pricing. For the most part, the trusted PS diamond vendors seem to offer fair prices, i.e. they will charge a retail price appropriate in the market for accurately represented goods. The experience of many PSers is that similar pricing -- especially when coupled with detailed information about light performance that many of these vendors make available -- is very hard to find outside of these vendors, and extremely challenging to find in a B&M setting. To me, whether you got a "good deal" depends on whether you got what you wanted/expected for a fair price. As someone pointed out, short of gambling on ebay or estate sales you aren't going to find a "steal." Are there inconveniences or risks in terms of shipping & buying sight unseen? Yes. Are those outweighed by getting more for your money than you could in most B&M stores? That's for you to decide, and may depend on whether you can find a trusted source for similar pricing for similar diamonds in your area, and how much the sales tactics of shopping for jewelry in person affects you.

ETA: It struck me that a wise PSer once used the tagline "a deal is only a deal if you are getting exactly what you want." Food for thought.

Good luck.