Will appaisers review 3 diamond then chose best

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Good day to you all and I hope you are keeping well.

I have been lurking around Pricescope for the past 2 months and now that I am getting closer to making a purchase it''s about time I submitted a post. I have read back through the old posts but could not find this topic covered but I apologise if I am covering old ground.

I have made a decision to purchase a diamond online but I have some reservations as this will be my first dimond purchase (girlfriends ering) and while I have read a certain amount I''m sure experience counts for a lot more.

I will give you a little more background and then get to my question. My girlfriend has chosen her desired setting based on websites and B & M store shopping. I want to buy a loose diamond to go with it. Here is our spec.

Round Brilliant
Carat: .75
Colour: G,H,I
Clarity: VS1 to SI2
Cut very good to ideal


I live in Ireland and my research shows buying with online US sites provides excellent value in comparison to purchasing at home. This however is a long distance purchase which will not allow us to see the goods and shipping involves a prepayment of 21% VAT. it could be a logistical nightmare full of red tape to return the diamond if it is''nt the sparkler we think we are getting. I could potentially see this happening as our appreciation of diamonds is limited.

Will a diamond appraisor review a number of diamonds from a vendor and give a subjective opinion on which he/she believes is the best looking diamond out of a goup of 3 or 4 side by side?

As an engineer I always give the facts just like the GIA, AGS and Sarin reports but sometimes it suits me to give a subjective opinion and sometimes it suits me to say I''m the engineer ask the architect about the aestethics. How much subjective information do the appraisor''s normally give and would they pick out the best diamond for us. (I don''t think we would be looking for a full appraisal with documentation on each diamond as I imagine this could be quite expensive).



Any help would be much apprciated

 

[Gonzodogg]

I don''t know the answer to that - if he is getting paid for all 3 or 4, I can''t imagine why not. That will be a huge cost though. If I were you, I would go with one of the online vendors through this site like WF, GOG or Wink that you can call and talk to a real person - and maybe a gemologist. If you feel like you can trust them (from what I have read, you can definately trust the three I mentioned) ask them for their honest opinion about which one looks better.

Also, if you have ALL the numbers, there are some experts here on PS that would be able to give you a pretty good idea of how it will look. It sounds like you want an "eye clean" near colorless diamond (Very popular with people here on PS) - narrow it down to those 3 or 4 that you talked about in you orignial question and post all the specs here. Within a day you will probably have 25 really strong suggestions.

Let me get you started...
http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-2107683.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-1948521.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-1948522.htm

Hope this helps.

 

[Shay37]

What''s your budget, honey? We''ll find you a beauty.

shay

 

[skphotoimages]

I have heard of people on here calling good old gold, or even white flash, and talking with them about what you want. If you express you''r needs to them, I would certaintly think they would look for the sparkler you desire.

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 12/14/2005 5:16:07 PM
Author: Shay37
What''s your budget, honey? We''ll find you a beauty.


shay

LOL!

 

[fisiogrl]

This will be fun!
I was worried about purchasing online too, but I have no regrets now.

Just out of curiosity - how many engineers are there on this site? I think there is some obsessive personality type linked to this profession...

Ofcourse, knowing a few engineers, I already know that answer to that....

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Thanks Gonzodogg, Shay 27, Skphotoimages, Lynn B and fisiogrl for your replies, I didn''t know if I would get any.

My budget for the total purchase of the ring is €3000 which converts to US$3529. I’ll keep it US$ from now on.

My girlfriend has chosen a ring after visiting lots of B&M stores including us spending a couple of days checking out the many jewellers in London’s Hatton Garden. To cut a long story short (and I mean long - I thought I was a perfectionist) my girlfriend has decided on a setting from Diamonds on Web. I know, I wanted her to pick one from WF or GOG etc but this is the one she wants so the decision is made and I’m happy to run with it. The setting she has chosen-what do you think you won’t hurt my feelings. It would cost $1150 excluding Irish VAT (Value Added Tax).

I have a preference for traditional slender elegant settings with an Art Nouveau style but she prefers a modern designer look. My GF’s choice is final as she wears the ring (but I hope I have at least one leg in the trousers on other matters).

By chance I notice an added advantage to buying with DoW, they seem to offer to pay some of the import VAT (Value Added Tax) for importing to Ireland. Here are the numbers:

Standard VAT in Ireland – 21% on imports outside European Union. An additional 2.5% for diamond mounted rings.

For instance my budget of $3529 would mean $701 paid out in VAT leaving $2917 for the purchase of the ring and diamond. $1150 for ring and $1767 for diamond.

Import duty to be paid when purchasing with DoW- 12%
DoW charge the purchaser 12% and they claim to pay the remaining VAT. See their note below:

“Note: We will collect the duty from you ahead of time so you will not need to pay anything when the package arrives. In most cases the import duty ends up being much higher than what we charge you but rest assured that WE will pay the difference, not you.
All International orders ship FREE OF CHARGE via UPS Worldwide Express mail.”

Now if the above is the case a saving in VAT payment of 701-349= $352 can be made and this money can be used to get a better diamond.

The Budget would now be 3529-352= $3177 ex VAT. $1150 for the setting and $2027 for the diamond.

I have read the PS posts on DoW and people have suggested they can be expensive but are reputable. In my case I think they could provide good value. Has anybody else heard anything about the above.

I have also quickly chosen a couple of diamonds from DoW for you initial response. At this stage I have not requested Sarin reports. Maybe some of you out there could point me in the right direction and I will dig a little deeper.

My diamond budget is $2027 so to get a .7 to .75 diamond would lead me to a H or I colour and SI1/SI2 clarity which we don’t mind if eyeclean. Colour and clarity did not seem overly significant to us when looked at diamonds but the brilliance and fire did (The Tiffany rings in Harrod’s London lit up the room.) We just want the best cut for the budget.

http://www.diamondsonweb.com/shopping_dd/ddetail.pl?shape=RB;lab=AGS;p_min=1800;ct_min=0.7;p_max=2050;ct_max=0.8;origin=dia_form;search.x=81;search.x=54;search.y=15;search.y=15;clar=VS2;clar=SI1;clar=SI2;color=H;color=I&sortby=&sorto=&id=Z0158760&start=0

http://www.diamondsonweb.com/shopping_dd/ddetail.pl?shape=RB;lab=GIA;p_min=1800;ct_min=0.7;p_max=2050;ct_max=0.8;origin=dia_form;search.x=81;search.x=41;search.y=15;search.y=10;clar=VS2;clar=SI1;clar=SI2;color=H;color=I&sortby=&sorto=&id=Z0136446&start=0

http://www.diamondsonweb.com/shopping_dd/ddetail.pl?shape=RB;lab=GIA;p_min=1800;ct_min=0.7;p_max=2050;ct_max=0.8;origin=dia_form;search.x=81;search.x=41;search.y=15;search.y=10;clar=VS2;clar=SI1;clar=SI2;color=H;color=I&sortby=&sorto=&id=Z0128760&start=20

Apologies I don''t know how to make the links active but they can be cut and pasted. Also didn''t know how to bring image into message so just attached.

Thanks for your guidance

 

[Regular Guy]

Structural,

A quick read suggests to me you have what should be a pretty reasonable question. But it's been out their awhile. Frankly, I thought some questions I have out to the appraisers here, too, were pretty reasonable. Somehow, we're not feeling the love.

I think like anybody, you get into a groove doing something, and when something is outside of that, you have to crook your head to figure out how to do that, and what it will cost you. Unless anyone has written you back personally, perhaps this is the case (and not sure why it would be, frankly), and it may explain the lack of response.

I think I have read here, in some post, where Dave Atlas will help with a quick review of more than one diamond, and then move to a more substantive review of the selected one. But, I have to imagine that any of our popular appraisers would do something like this, too. I'd review this board closely enough to determine if you can rank order the appraisers who frequent this board, and have a talk with them. I'll bet they'll do something like this for you.

P.S. edited to add...DOW offers something of a program that might allow you to do some comparative shopping yourself. This thread gives some thought to it.

 

[oldminer]

We do offer a "decision making service" where we review all stones sent in and select the one that we personally prefer and also a different one based on any special parameters of importance as suggested by the client. THen we confer with the client in order for them to make a wise choice.

We can also grade two, three or four diamonds in full and let the client decide without our further verbal advice.

Each of these multi-stone examinations with one to be chosen is done with reduced fees after the first diamond. It is more efficient to do several diamonds at a time for a single client and we give the client the benefit of the more rapid time. Glad to do it this way. I''m sure other appraisers here also have some similar programs.

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Ira: Thanks for your post it is appreciated. It seems from the link you directed me to that you have given the online purchasing, appraising and setting issue etc a considerable amount of thought. My initial reaction is that with so many people involved in the process of buying a diamond and ring on-line the issue of liability can become diluted. By this I mean the liability/responsibilty for providing the correct undamaged diamond with good service. To think an independant local jeweller must be accountable for setting stones but cannot get insurance for potentially damaging stones while doing his work makes this a high risk activity. At the end of the day for my purchase I want to attach myself to good responsible pro''s with a reputation they do not wish to damage. Here is how I am thinking about proceding.

1) Buy the setting from Diamonds on Web for reasons discussed in my previous post.

2) Request that D on W send a number of diamonds of my choice to a reputable appraiser of my choice.

3) The appraiser does a quick spot check and recommends the nicest diamond based on my criteria.

4) Appraisor returns the diamond to D on W.

5) D on W set the chosen diamond and ship the finished ring to me.

I know it would be better to have the appraisor look at the finished ring to double check its authenticity but I feel this would be time consuming and I think at some point you have to draw the line on the cost of verification. I am hoping that the diamond will have recognisable characteristics (inclusions) that I can view with a loupe and light to verify.

I am naturally concerned about the on-line purchase as I am mindful that not everyone can be trusted implicidly. I want exactly what I pay for. It is good that you have raised these issues as it''s something that consumers need to think about. It''s all about giving ourselves the best protection.


David: Good to hear you provide the "decision making process". It puts my mind at ease that an independant person can give knowledge experienced advice on a number of diamonds. I must now check that the vendor is ok with sending out 3 or 4 diamonds.

By the way I had a look through your resume on your website and I have to say it is more than impressive. The word legend springs to mind.


Thanks for the replies - To everyone any more thoughts on the setting choice and recommendations on a diamond.

 

[fisiogrl]

I really like that setting! I am not a big fan of prongs all over the side diamonds so this one is lovely. Your GF has great taste.

It is hard to comment on the diamonds because i can''t see any stats. With what is on the website they look respectable. If you can ship them to an independent appraiser, they should be able to find you the best of the bunch.

Have you talked/emailed anyone at your supplier directly? If they know what you want they should at least be able to eliminate stones that are not eyeclean before you go to the trouble of sending them to someone else. They may even have some other options that are not on their website.

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Hi fisiogrl

Thanks for you comments much appreciated. I am going to follow up with D on W to try and get a Sarin reports and confirmation on the diamonds being eyeclean. I will post my experience with D on W.

If D on W are do not provide more detailed info I have two choices.

1) Pick three diamonds and send to an appraiser and hopefully one is a good one.

2) Chose a different vendor but D on W has the ring my GF wants and as explained before makes a
contribution to the import duty which amounts to 11.5% of the purchase price.

Talking with D on W should clarify these things.

 

[valeria101]

The setting is a relatively simple one and I have seen some similar rings on semi finished catalogs.
If sold as 'designer' goods, these settings may be priced rather high, although a dozen other 'designers' will obviously have the same thing etc.

The magic words for the setting should be 'bar set half eternity semi mount' or close. If you would have rather had the stone from a different place, it may be worth asking if they could source such a setting.

A few online shops have versions, and chances are some of the castings (e.g Advar) or semi finished (e.g. Stuller) catalogs will turn out the very same.

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Thanks for the adive Ana.

Your advice that "The magic words for the setting should be ''bar set half eternity semi mount'' or close." kind of went over my head. Could you explain a little further and possibly send some pics to illustrate.


Its good to know that many vendors should be able to produce a similar setting. This leave only the possible savings on import tax which Diamonds on Web seeem to offer. From my modest research of PS posts over the last couple of months I would be happier to go with WF, GOG etc because they give out so much info allowing an informed choice. Diamonds on Web offer a discount on Import Tax which amounts in my case to 11.5% of the total ring price. This is hard to turn down. I will call D on W when I get a chance later (at work at the moment) to get more info.

 

[denverappraiser]

Structural,

I have done this sort of appraisal assignment with many overseas clients and I''ve never seen an offer like this to subsidize the VAT. I can''t imagine that this is anything but an error on their website calculator. It doesn''t make sense. I wouldn''t be surprised if they honor the program but something doesn''t add up right here and I suggest that you investigate further into this policy. They are effectively offering a 12% rebate to customers in Ireland that isn''t available to their other clients worldwide. That looks good from Ireland but it''s a dumb way to run a business that''s trying to cater to a worldwide market.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Hi Neil

I agree with you that it''s hard to believe D on W would be offing a tax break of 11.5%. It does''nt add up to me that their profit margin would take such a hit. The thing is they say they give tax reductions and their calculator shows a tax reduction.

The following is Diamond on Web''s words which can be read on their website:

“Note: We will collect the duty from you ahead of time so you will not need to pay anything when the package arrives. In most cases the import duty ends up being much higher than what we charge you but rest assured that WE will pay the difference, not you.

All International orders ship FREE OF CHARGE via UPS Worldwide Express mail.”

You can find a link to the page where the quote above can be found (its at the very bottom of the D on W page):

http://www.diamondsonweb.com/shopping/hub.pl

I will make a call on the subject as you have suggested.

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Neil


Over my lunch break I decided to check if there was an error in D on W''s calculator to see if there was a paticular issue when chosing Ireland. Here is what I found:


United Kingdom: D on W show Import VAT of 12% (Actual 17.5%)

Germany: 10% (Actual I think is 16%)

France 12% (Actual 19.6)

Spain 10% (Don''t Knowthe actual rate)

Seems Europeans could do well when making purchases at these rates.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/16/2005 8:24:14 AM
Author: The Structural Engineer Imagines

Your advice that ''The magic words for the setting should be ''bar set half eternity semi mount'' or close.'' kind of went over my head. Could you explain a little further and possibly send some pics to illustrate.

Oh...

The mantra describes what the ring is. The accent stones are ''bar set'' (i.e. set between two ridges of meta), and only the upper half of the ring is set with accent stones, not all the way around - hence ''half eternity'' and ''semi mount'' because this sort of ring is made so that any size of diamond fits in it by changing the piece that holds the stone which is made separately.

Sometimes these rings come with no description or just a fancy design name that does not allow to look up alternatives easily. Google images turns out a handful of ''bar set platinum rings'' etc.

This design comes with a little disclaimer: when worn, the bits of metal between the diamonds get some abuse and the surfaces inevitable show some patina and scratches after a while. This is why many prefer rings with the least possible metal surface left between accent diamonds (i.e shared prong or pave style).

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Thanks for the explaination Ana.........................

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Ok I''ve called Diamonds on Web and here are the facts:

1) D on W are currentlly experimenting with absorbing some of the cost of the import Tax to international customers. I was told 4-6% but I think its a bit more than that for Ireland (11.5%)

2) D on W do not supply Sarin reports but have a gemologist who will answer questions. Gemologist onlyif diamond is in stock as they are wholesaler not retailer.

3) D on W will not send a diamond out for appraisal. In the past they would send a number of diamonds to jewellers for review and setting but they have discontinued this service.

Here is my opinion:

My gut feeling is I was speaking to someone in a call centre.

They provide limited data and certainly not enough to make a judgement from a distance. Why should I trust their in-house gemologist when he/she doesn''t have access to all their inventory of diamond in hands. Can I trust any dimensions their gemologist is quoting without documentation to back it up.

They are not third party friendly (appraiser). This is a real problem for consumers and a real concern to me.

The import tax concession is the only thing going for them and would amount to a saving of $352 for my purchase.


Me thinks I have to contemplate this over the weekend. As always any opinions would be greatly appeciated.

 

[Regular Guy]

Structural,

Date: 12/16/2005 3:33:07 PM
Author: The Structural Engineer Imagines

3) D on W will not send a diamond out for appraisal. In the past they would send a number of diamonds to jewellers for review and setting but they have discontinued this service.

Here is my opinion:

My gut feeling is I was speaking to someone in a call centre.

They provide limited data and certainly not enough to make a judgement from a distance. Why should I trust their in-house gemologist when he/she doesn''t have access to all their inventory of diamond in hands. Can I trust any dimensions their gemologist is quoting without documentation to back it up.

They are not third party friendly (appraiser). This is a real problem for consumers and a real concern to me.

The import tax concession is the only thing going for them and would amount to a saving of $352 for my purchase.


Me thinks I have to contemplate this over the weekend. As always any opinions would be greatly appeciated.

Sounds like principle things about DOW that attracted you to them are not holding up...maybe you just stumbled into them?

All the vendors here featured in the search by cut database (see below signature) do have that data on hand. Since you agree it''s important...don''t leave home without it.

Good hunting.

 

[denverappraiser]

They clearly haven’t worked out all of the kinks in this program. They offer a 30-day return privilege for any reason, so you can buy it and have them ship it to an appraiser of your choice for inspection prior to the export.

Many dealers offer a program where they will ship a stone to an appraiser who is chosen from some approved list for inspection without requiring you to pay first. This is based on the mutual good credit of the appraisers and the dealers. I’m on most of those lists so it is good for me and it’s kind of convenient for the consumers but it has been the source of financial exposure for both dealers and appraisers and it opens up the opportunity for collusion or conflict between the two groups, which concerns consumers. For these reasons, many dealers have discontinued the practice and many appraisers will refuse such shipments. I’m not sure I would hold this against them. This is not the same thing as refusing to permit you to get an independent appraisal as part of your shopping process.

Because of the complexities of the international transaction and the difficulties of making a return if you decide to do so, it is common practice to get a new stone appraised by a US based appraiser and have the report delivered by email. This gives the buyer one more opportunity to make an more informed decision before you commit to the shipping and taxes associated with the import. When I’ve done this in the past, the dealer has sent the stone to me and I’ve sent the stone to the client after they''ve examined the report and decided to proceed. No, I don’t pay your taxes for you and I can’t see an easy way for them to do it if they aren’t the exporter of record. Perhaps the appraiser could return it to them and let them ship?

If it''s really true that an 11.5% benefit dissappears because you want involve a 3rd party expert instead of relying on the dealers statement, run for the exit.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[blitz]

Dia duit,

Ta me Jennifer. Cen chaio a bhfuil tu?

Slan leat,

 

[fisiogrl]

Yikes,
Starting to really sound as though it is not worth it. My 2 cents are that $300 or so saving is not at all worth the uncertainty.

You would do well to trust Brian''s eyes in the labs at WF, or Jon at GOG and have them pull 3 or 4 diamonds of your choice. I would trust those guys. I honestly feel that you could forgo the appraiser, but understand completely that you would want to have that step.

Any of these jewellers could copy your setting and probably save you money doing it. Don''t forget your PS discount too!

PS. Are the taxes the same on set and unset diamonds? There might be a saving if you get the diamond sent to you separately and assembled at your end.

 

[valeria101]

Speaking of lining a few diamonds up... how about their ''blueprints''? (GemAdviser models that is)

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Neil

Your observation on the 30 day return period is interesting. This period as you suggest could be used to get a good appraiser involved. The problem from my point of view is I don''t like the fact that a buyer has to rely on the 30 day return rule to come up with a solution to the issue that DOW will not allow a third party to get involved prior to money being handed over.

As the money has to be handed over first a decision on the diamond to be purchased must be made by me. I had hoped to have the help of an appraiser looking at the diamonds first hand. Maybe I am expecting too much and what I want is not the norm with every seller.

To compound my problem DOW offer only AGS/GIA or EGL reports and that is it. I could consult with their gemmologist but from my initial discussion with the sales people I wasn''t filled with confidence about DOW. I didn''t get a feeling I was talking to experts. I spoke to two people-the first woman had no idea how to answer my simple questions so referred me to what I consider was a call centre line manager who could tell me DOW policy but could offer little in terms of how to provide a specific answer to my request.

Another problem is my GF has her heart set on a particular DOW setting. I would have to have the diamond mounted on the ring and then sent to the appraiser, which from what I gather on PS posts is not an ideal situation.

At this point it seems that buying with DOW means taking somewhat of a shot in the dark on a diamond and hoping for the best. To me this is not a logical way to go. Having said all this the 11.5% Tax saving is very tempting.

I have to weigh up the risks and make my choice. My GF and I are certainly no diamond connoisseur''s. What are people''s opinion on the chance of a signature ideal from DOW being a good diamond. I know the info DOW provide is too limited but I am playing devils advocate here a little.

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Date: 12/16/2005 6:59:19 PM
Author: 867V309
Dia duit,

Ta me Jennifer. Cen chaio a bhfuil tu?

Slan leat,

Ta me go maith, Jennifer.

Are you an irish speaker. I''m ashamed to say my command of the language is limited. I could probably piece together a few words if you would like to converse. I could ask my mother to help as she is a fluent Irish speaker. On second thoughts I won''t be asking my mother anything. I don''t know if you have an Irish mother but if I were to ask about getting help with Irish I think she would become suspicious. That would lead to the obligitory 20 questions and before I know she''d be posting on Pricescope. The old policy of "tell em nothin" has worked well up to now so I''ll stick with it.

Sorry for my digression I''m in my thirties and mother still has a hold over me. (My GF will get a kick out of reading this). By the way my mother has a heart of gold.

Slan leat

 

[denverappraiser]

Structural,

It is not unusual or unreasonable for a dealer to refuse to ship a valuable item to a stranger without getting some money first. The offer of a full refund if you are unhappy is both typical and fair. Think of it as a security deposit instead of as a sale and it makes more sense. There are a few dealers who don’t require this when shipping to certain appraisers based on the good credit of the appraiser and this combination isn’t all that difficult to put together if it’s important to you. Most of the dealers who do this advertise it as one of the reasons to buy from them so it''s not all that tough to tell who will do it.

It’s entirely possible that DoW will agree to sell you a mounting and either agree to set a different stone into it or you can have the piece assembled by an entirely separate jeweler. I have no idea what their policies are on this kind of deal but I presume that they would be happy to discuss it with you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[The Structural Engineer Imagines]

Date: 12/16/2005 8:33:16 PM
Author: fisiogrl
Yikes,
Starting to really sound as though it is not worth it. My 2 cents are that $300 or so saving is not at all worth the uncertainty.

You would do well to trust Brian''s eyes in the labs at WF, or Jon at GOG and have them pull 3 or 4 diamonds of your choice. I would trust those guys. I honestly feel that you could forgo the appraiser, but understand completely that you would want to have that step.

Any of these jewellers could copy your setting and probably save you money doing it. Don''t forget your PS discount too!

PS. Are the taxes the same on set and unset diamonds? There might be a saving if you get the diamond sent to you separately and assembled at your end.

fisiogrl

I need to do a little more information gathering. I am going to email different sellers with a pdf of the ring my GF wants to check if they can make it. Ana has posted that "The setting is a relatively simple one and I have seen some similar rings on semi finished catalogs." so hopefully there wouldn''t be too many problems getting the ring made up by someone else.

I see you suggest WF and GOG, who else would be recomended.

Taxs are different on set and unset diamonds imported into Ireland. 21% tax on loose diamonds and an additional 2.5% if the diamond is mounted. A mounted diamond would be 21+2.5=23.5%. This is a lot of additional cost which really impacts my budget.




Ana: I''ll do a little homework on blueprints-Thanks for yourhelp, your notes on the setting are great.

 

[blitz]

Oh ta, ceart go leor.

First year Irish, so I''m very very limited.
But, since you replied, and I''m of the RC Irish decent, I would very much like to assist, and at no extra expense to you. I''m in Los Angeles California and only work as a gemologist/appraiser.

Sin an meid, Slan leat anois.