Why do some SI3 stones look good while others look bad?

[fraggle30]

Hello all!! I've been looking at princess diamonds lately and I've noticed some awful looking SI3 stones but on the other hand I've seen some really nice SI3 stones. The stones I've been looking at are through EGL Los Angeles. why are some SI3 stones so different then others? Why do some SI3 graded stones show obvious flaws while others look pretty good to the naked eye? thanks

 

[yssie]

Short answer is yes. SI3 is a fancy name for an I1, and with the unknowns of EGL's clarity grading you never know what you're actually getting by trade-respected GIA standards..


To answer your question specifically though, I just asked this essentially question and David gave a very informative answer in this thread.

 

[bright&shiny]

What a great thread you linked to.... I am so happy to have read it as it clarifies my next search conversation - shallow cut, lowish clarity, but clean stones for earrings. Great topic!

 

[Amys Bling]

EGL SI3 is essentially I1 grade (EGL created SI3 grade, where GIA would skips from SI2 to I1)... so truly with EGL being softer at grading- and the fact that this stone is already a grade below SI2--- it would be more accurate to call this stone an I1-I2... and depending on the grade setting clarity issues, this stone could be good or terrible depending on type of clarity issues it has and where they are and how visible they are....

 

[anitabee]

EGL SI3 is essentially I1 grade (EGL created SI3 grade, where GIA would skips from SI2 to I1)... so truly with EGL being softer at grading- and the fact that this stone is already a grade below SI2--- it would be more accurate to call this stone an I1-I2... and depending on the grade setting clarity issues, this stone could be good or terrible depending on type of clarity issues it has and where they are and how visible they are....

i'm not disputing the whole si3 is a weird grade... BUT i'm tired of people constantly spreading mistruths about egl usa being softer on clarity grading. THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THIS TO BE TRUE. color, yes, their color grading is known to be softer.

re: clarity grading... EGL USA HAS BEEN KNOWN TO ACTUALLY GRADE CLARITY THE SAME OR STRICTER THAN GIA!! yes, folks. there has been a study done by the good folks here at pricescope. read it here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

 

[bright&shiny]

A fair point - I just looked at the data - but it seems to me that the EGL is still not as close on clarity - although not as far off as the color. Am I missing something because the way the data is presented it could be possible to mis-read....

 

[anitabee]

A fair point - I just looked at the data - but it seems to me that the EGL is still not as close on clarity - although not as far off as the color. Am I missing something because the way the data is presented it could be possible to mis-read....

i'm not sure how you can misread that by looking at the data. it shows that some stones were graded higher by gia (ie stone given vs2) while egl usa graded the stone lower (s11). that would show that egl usa CAN grade stricter than gia.

check this out: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/conclusion

 

[fraggle30]

hey you know whats crazy guys? Recently I looked at a stone that was certified by EGL the color was H, it was also certified by GIA which gave the stone a G. It's so wierd because most of the time it's the other way around. Some have said that EGL Los Angelos is stricter than other EGL's but then again I have seen some pretty bad looking SI3 stones graded by EGL that I know should have been I2's. It's so wierd. I think I'll make my own grading system and set all this straight!! LOL!!

 

[motownmama]

weird

 

[SB621]

EGL SI3 is essentially I1 grade (EGL created SI3 grade, where GIA would skips from SI2 to I1)... so truly with EGL being softer at grading- and the fact that this stone is already a grade below SI2--- it would be more accurate to call this stone an I1-I2... and depending on the grade setting clarity issues, this stone could be good or terrible depending on type of clarity issues it has and where they are and how visible they are....

i'm not disputing the whole si3 is a weird grade... BUT i'm tired of people constantly spreading mistruths about egl usa being softer on clarity grading. THERE IS NOTHING SHOWING THIS TO BE TRUE. color, yes, their color grading is known to be softer.

re: clarity grading... EGL USA HAS BEEN KNOWN TO ACTUALLY GRADE CLARITY THE SAME OR STRICTER THAN GIA!! yes, folks. there has been a study done by the good folks here at pricescope. read it here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

+1

 

[denverappraiser]

Most SI3's would be graded by GIA as I-1.
Some would be GIA-I2's.
As pointed out above, a few might even be GIA-SI2's

That's a big range and it's no surprise that it covers a lot of different looking stones.

 

[oldminer]

When I have the opportunity to bid on a diamond accompanied by an EGL, or other non-GIA/AGS, report I tend to figure the color and clarity one grade lower than the report and base my initial estimate of what I'd want to pay on those lowered parameters. The rest of the trade tends to follow this practice or versions of it. Most of the time this proves a good shortcut to the correct range of value although there are exceptions above and below on occasion. However, this is a good starting point for the estimation of the value when one is faced with an initial bid situation on a mounted diamond.

The study we did some time ago with Pricescope showed inconsistencies across the board in diamond grading and that the best bargains often were found with EGL graded diamonds where the grades happened to be very correct, yet the market had discounted those diamonds in price using the general rules of what I described above in setting their price.

Grading reports will tell you a good deal about the diamond, but all the labs may be a bit off the mark on occasions. Some labs are off the mark more often. You must shop, compare and buy a diamond which you really like. The long term value is in the sentiment attached to the purchase. Attributes of less importance are alphabetical and alphanumeric phrases denoting a opinions of color and clarity. These grades are so close to one another that the naked eye can't tell where one grade ends and the other begins. By far, the quality of cut which leads to the beauty of the diamond outweighs the problems of minor color and clarity grading differences.

I know this argument can't begin to convince engineers and those who are driven by the perfection offered by mathmatics. I respect those among us who believe so strongly in parameters and exactness of grades, but the majority of consumers are less perfectionist and more pragmatic. For them, I hope my explanation above makes them less worried and more confident in the overall process.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I have long felt that SI3 was a very good idea- and wished GIA would adopt it.
There's a wide range in both SI2 and I1.
What this means is that two stones with the same SI2, or I1 grade can have wildly differing values.
If we had an accpted SI3 grade it would somewhat alleviate this problem


If consumers were in the business, and had looked at many thousands of stones, they'd understand why tradespeople won't accept EGL grading. The trade at large won't accept any EGL grading on par with GIA, Period. It's no myth- and you can't use any formula.
I don't work for GIA, and I have absolutely nothing to gain by stating this fact. Consumers need to know NOT to trust EGL- grades- or sellers who don't explain the difference .
Any buyer with a practice of blindly paying one grade below GIA on EGL graded stones is going to be doing a lot of overpaying.

Here's a report issued by EGL .


Here's the report issued by GIA on the same stone


Please don't mistake this as an attack on any stone with an EGL report- I happen to love the stone referred to by these two reports.
Although I bought the stone in these reports, I did not try to use some formula to determine the color or clarity- I graded ( it was loose) it using my own eyes and knowledge.
It's not safe to trust EGL- dealers know this.
If a dealer is saying different, it calls either their knowledge, or their truthfulness into question.
fraggle30-I am not saying stones graded SI3 by EGL LA are necessarily bad- but the report does not compare to a GIA report. Hopefully the dealer will explain this to you.
Personally, I'd rather represent a stone graded I1, with the GIA report, as compared to a stone graded SI3 by EGL.
You're spending a lot of money, and the lab report can be an important aspect of ownership.

 

[anitabee]

I have long felt that SI3 was a very good idea- and wished GIA would adopt it.
There's a wide range in both SI2 and I1.
What this means is that two stones with the same SI2, or I1 grade can have wildly differing values.
If we had an accpted SI3 grade it would somewhat alleviate this problem


If consumers were in the business, and had looked at many thousands of stones, they'd understand why tradespeople won't accept EGL grading. The trade at large won't accept any EGL grading on par with GIA, Period. It's no myth- and you can't use any formula.
I don't work for GIA, and I have absolutely nothing to gain by stating this fact. Consumers need to know NOT to trust EGL- grades- or sellers who don't explain the difference .
Any buyer with a practice of blindly paying one grade below GIA on EGL graded stones is going to be doing a lot of overpaying.

Here's a report issued by EGL .


Here's the report issued by GIA on the same stone


Please don't mistake this as an attack on any stone with an EGL report- I happen to love the stone referred to by these two reports.
Although I bought the stone in these reports, I did not try to use some formula to determine the color or clarity- I graded ( it was loose) it using my own eyes and knowledge.
It's not safe to trust EGL- dealers know this.
If a dealer is saying different, it calls either their knowledge, or their truthfulness into question.
fraggle30-I am not saying stones graded SI3 by EGL LA are necessarily bad- but the report does not compare to a GIA report. Hopefully the dealer will explain this to you.
Personally, I'd rather represent a stone graded I1, with the GIA report, as compared to a stone graded SI3 by EGL.
You're spending a lot of money, and the lab report can be an important aspect of ownership.

i'd thought this conversation was dealing with EGL USA.

i get what you're saying and i see you're showing an "EGL" report and NOT an "EGL USA" report. there's no comparison between the two. EGL USA is not affiliated with other EGL labs outside of North America. EGL USA is a wholly different beast than the EGL Internationals. i get frustrated seeing people interchange the two.

from everything i've seen and read the EGL USA standards are much higher than the other labs.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I agree that EGL USA is more consistent than any of the other EGL's- and yes, the example I posted was not an EGL USA report.
However that still does not change the fact that any EGL report- including EGL-USA can not be used reliably to price a stone- or ascertain it's grade.
Even if 24 stones were tested, and EGL USA issued a clarity grade stricter than GIA, it does not change this fact.

AS a dealer, it would be great if this were not the fact.
EGL USA is quicker, and has some good products, like the availability of a "Pre Grade". This is a service where you can submit a stone and get the color clarity results for $25 in a few days without having to commit to a full report.
EGL USA will also issue the SI3 grade- and as i've mentioned, this makes a lot of sense looking at how wide a range SI2 and I1 encompass.
It kind of sucks that GIA has a virtual monopoly, but that's just a fact of life in this business. No matter how much we discuss this, no EGL report is going to be taken seriously by dealers and cutters.
Consumers are very well served understanding this fact, especially considering how many less than honest sellers try to confuse the issue.

 

[denverappraiser]

Methinks EGL USA would benefit from a name change.

They get a certain amount of name recognition from the EGL moniker, much of which was built by their own efforts, but there is some serious baggage that goes along with it and even if they were to clean up their own house 100%, they would still have a heavy burden to bear.

To the extent that they voluntarily continue the association, I would call it a self inflicted problem.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Good point Neil- however I don't believe that this whole discussion really matter to any of the EGL's.
So, even though there's baggage to people knowledgeable in the gem trade, EGL is still a recognizable name to the general public- so any change would not really be of any benefit.
I just don't see how any entity will be able to challenge GIA, as it stands.

 

[denverappraiser]

It's a matter of WHAT GIA is being challenged to do. I point out that IGI claims to be a bigger lab and I see no reason to doubt them and I suspect EGL-USA outsells me by a factor of a thousand. They must be doing something right. They have some smart people over there who I'm sure have debated this topic thoroughly and they like the status quo just the way it is. If anything, it would be IGI that they want to take on, not GIA.

It's sort of like observing that Coors makes crappy beer and that none of my beer snob friends like it. Crappy or not, Coors light costs less to produce and sells better than ANY of the stuf that I actually like, and Mr. Coors is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[fraggle30]

wow denver appraiser I never thought that some would be GIA SI2's interesting. thanks for all the info you provide

 

[fraggle30]

Good info. I often think one or two grades below when considering diamonds by EGL, this is what I read, but I'm no expert by any means.

 

[fraggle30]

wow Rockdiamond, I see what you mean. Thanks for all your info

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great point Neil!
Since we're discussing broad terms, we need to specify.
AS you say, IGI issues more reports than GIA. By that benchmark, they are more successful.
I'm discussing the specific aspect of diamonds that are sold and priced based on accurate grading.
For example: When the users of IGI, and EGL buy stones in bulk, it's done based on the price.
If a company like Zales buys 1000 one carat +- diamonds, it's generally done at an average price- say $1000 per carat.
The buyers expect a certain range of grades, but it's far wider than when a single 1.00 GIA EX cut grade stone is sold by a cutter to a dealer.
Readers of this forum are generally interested in the finer color, clarity, and of course cut which we associate with the much finer grading GIA, and AGSL provides.
By that benchmark, I can't see any company challenging GIA's hold on the market.

 

[fraggle30]

everyone here has wonderful arguments and views which definatly have educated me regarding the matter. I'm no expert but I think it would be kind of nice for GIA to add something similar to SI3. Again thanks everyone for sharing your opinions!!

 

[Rockdiamond]

everyone here has wonderful arguments and views which definatly have educated me regarding the matter. I'm no expert but I think it would be kind of nice for GIA to add something similar to SI3. Again thanks everyone for sharing your opinions!!

My pleasure fraggle30!!
I hope we can be of assistance!!