Why do brick and mortar jewelers bash online jewelers?

[kal2021]

It's becoming very overwhelming to me to be talking with both a jewelry store owner (reputable jeweler who mainly deals with Kwiat and Lazare Kaplan diamonds, so not some sketchy place) and a couple of the PS preferred vendors about my diamond upgrade. Why is it that some jewelery store owners talk down about both online diamond retailers and AGS certificates?! They make me second guess everything (certificate, color, clarity) I’ve learned to be awesome about AGS ideal stones like WF’s ACA line by acting like they are not as good as what they can get. Is it just that they are worried about the online competition and whether they will be able to stay relevant and compete? They make me feel like getting an AGS super ideal stone like an ACA is nothing special, but from everything I’ve seen on here for years now that just isn’t true. Help me see through the BS and lead me to the light!

 

[rockysalamander]

Because online jewelers are eating their lunch.

You'll get the same spiel at a car dealer, fabric store or any one of many retailers.

 

[kal2021]

Because online jewelers are eating their lunch.

You'll get the same spiel at a car dealer, fabric store or any one of many retailers.

Haha! I had to actually look up that saying!

 

[lovedogs]

Because B&M stores are getting destroyed by online offerings that are higher quality for better prices. So they have nothing else to do but bash them in hopes that people are fooled enough to buy their crappy offerings.

Obviously some BM stores have designer products that aren't crappy, but they just don't hold a candle to the super ideal diamonds. Those store owners don't know what else to do but try to convince unsuspecting people to buy their (less good) stuff instead.

 

[flyingpig]

Actually, there is a very strong argument for why one should buy a diamond in person, instead of online. In fact, all online PS vendors would agree on the importance of seeing diamonds in person.
Also, WF's ACA (or other super ideal cut diamonds such as BGD Black, CBI, and etc) has a good balance among spread, fire, brightness, scintillation, and contrast. But it is not necessarily the best in any of the mentioned categories. You can make a strong argument for why one should look beyond the ideal TIC proportions and super ideal cut diamonds and shop more open-minded.
However, B&M vendors just bash online dealers and ideal cut diamonds, because it is simple and somewhat effective. More importantly, most B&M vendors seriously lack knowledge in diamonds to provide you with a professional and constructive advise and criticism on AGS super ideal diamonds.

 

[kmoro]

To get your business. I’m sorry, but I thought that was obvious? Maybe there’s more to it and I’m just tired and grumpy.

 

[LLJsmom]

Because they are helpless and can do nothing better.
If you find a real life b&m vendor that will show an ASET of a diamond and analyze it, discuss ideal cut proportions, not treat you like the village idiot and not act in a condescending manner, then that seems to be a vendor to consider. The fact that they refuse to get with the times and recognize that the diamond cutting too has made technological advances and can only insult your intelligence makes me want to make a break for the door in mid-sentence. Why are you even wasting your time?

 

[TreeScientist]

Actually, there is a very strong argument for why one should buy a diamond in person, instead of online. In fact, all online PS vendors would agree on the importance of seeing diamonds in person.
Also, WF's ACA (or other super ideal cut diamonds such as BGD Black, CBI, and etc) has a good balance among spread, fire, brightness, scintillation, and contrast. But it is not necessarily the best in any of the mentioned categories. You can make a strong argument for why one should look beyond the ideal TIC proportions and super ideal cut diamonds and shop more open-minded.
However, B&M vendors just bash online dealers and ideal cut diamonds, because it is simple and somewhat effective. More importantly, most B&M vendors seriously lack knowledge in diamonds to provide you with a professional and constructive advise and criticism on AGS super ideal diamonds.

This is a very good point. All diamonds should be viewed in person and with an open mind prior to purchase. There's something to be said for the ability to walk into a store and view multiple diamonds at one time and then choose which one your eye prefers in multiple different lighting conditions. Even among well-cut H&A diamonds, each individual diamond will have a different "flavor" in regards to how it performs in various lighting conditions. And most people do not have the liquid funds to order 6 different SuperIdeals, have them all delivered to their home for comparison, and then return the 5 they don't like.

I think part of the bashing of online jewelers, particularly the AGS-carrying SuperIdeal vendors, by B&M jewelers arises out of sheer ignorance. Many "gemologists" working at normal B&M jewelers have no formal training other than maybe the 4-hour walkthrough of how to deliver the 4-C's pitch to customers that was provided to them by their employer. They usually learn GIA excellent is the epitome of diamond cut, that all GIA excellents will perform more or less the same, and that anything other than GIA is worthless (at least, this is the spiel I was fed when I went to compare diamond colors at a B&M store).

But most of it comes down to them being killed in the price wars. They simply cannot compete with online jewelers with lower net overheads per diamond sold. So they'll try anything to talk down the online retailers to prevent the inevitable death of the B&M jeweler. Pretty similar to how most independent bookstores vehemently despised Amazon while Amazon was slowly sucking the life out of them, right up until the eventual demise of the independent bookstore in the early 2010s (I still miss independent bookstores sometimes though ).

Whenever a retailer sells at a higher price point than another retailer for the same product, they have to come up with justifications for why the end consumer should choose to pay the premium to purchase through them as opposed to with the cheaper competition (Marketing 101). This same marketing strategy is applied to SuperIdeal diamonds as well. "SuperIdeal" branded diamonds sell at a 25+% premium to equivalently well-cut diamonds that you can find through open market vendors. The SuperIdeal vendors do have great benefits, like excellent customer service, excellent upgrade policy's, and the fact that all of their diamonds are in-house for easy comparison. But the fact remains that they're selling a well-cut diamond that can also be found on the open market with a bit of diligent searching. So they're selling their "Brand" just as much as any B&M retailer is selling their "Brand"... just as much as any brand is selling their "Brand."

In summary, don't blame the B&M jeweler. They're doing what every retailer does, which is trying to persuade you of the superiority of their product and services so you'll buy from them. Whether you choose to buy from a B&M jeweler for the peace of mind of seeing a bunch of diamonds in person prior to purchase, from a "SuperIdeal" vendor for the peace of mind that the "SuperIdeal" label brings for many PS members, or from an open market online retailer for the peace of mind of getting the lowest cost possible on a well-cut H&A diamond: In the end, it is your decision and your peace of mind that you need to consider. B&M Jewelers, online jewelers, PriceScope members, member's of other diamond forums, your grandma. They'll all have their own opinions. After educating yourself, you need to make the decision that will make you happy.

 

[MissGotRocks]

They bash what they cannot provide. If they could provide you with an ACA equivalent, then you could compare them yourself. They can't so they bad mouth it. There is so much information to be had here, vendors that you can call and talk to and countless satisfied customers. You generally won't get that in a B&M store either. Always truth in numbers I say - if B&M was the way to go, posters here would be doing just that. Sadly, many that have gone that route come up short. I know this to be true but from a personal standpoint, it does not make me happy to say it. How wonderful it would be to be able to access the same cut quality from B&M stores - you could shop till your heart's content! I hate to see any kind of business get bad reviews but when it comes to jewelers it can be buyer beware. Just make sure that you do your homework and that you are comparing apples to apples.

 

[Karl_K]

Buying online is a bit of a jungle and they do have some valid points.
There is a huge difference between "online" and a pricscope consumer guided search even though both are online.
Try searching for 1ct diamond on ebay looking for the lowest price.

 

[eapj]

The members of this forum, very understandably, talk a lot about super ideal diamonds. Most consumers aren't interested; they just want something that is sparkly. An uneducated consumer on the web by themselves are open to all sorts of bad decisions. I think some education plus the internet is a fabulous thing. There are lots of pretty diamonds available online and at brick and mortar stores but also lots of not nice ones in both places. I think if a physical store provided good service, they may have a point but has already been mentioned, so many who work at jewelry stores don't really know that much about what they're selling.

Some people buy beat up used cars and are perfectly happen with them. Some people will only drive a new Porsche. There are different products and retailers for everyone.Trust your gut and buy what and where you want to.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It’s bad form to criticize competition. But I can understand why it happens.
The fact that online sellers have far lower expenses and can sell for lower prices is frustrating- especially when the stores higher expense basis is tied to offering a service to the local community.
Once all the local stores are gone it’s a loss IMO

There’s also a difference in how a seasoned wholesale diamond buyer looks at diamonds- and that might be making a difference in this case.
Why use ASET when you’re actually holding the diamond and understand how to assess it?
The main reason would be to see how the stone will look online.
I can tell you that some of the largest dealers have no idea how to use it.
Also that as a seasoned grader the idea that I can only buy stones that look good on ASET as opposed to the best / prettiest ones in my opinion seems very limiting.

 

[WinkHPD]

Many good points have been made above, including the point that it is bad form to bash one's competition.

Sadly, I think that one of the prime reasons jewelry store employees talk poorly about AGS and Online jewelers is both lack of knowledge and FEAR.

Many jewelers have no formal gemological training. They may have grown up on the bench side of the business, or they may have been hired by a jeweler who was impressed with their salesmanship while shopping for something else. These good salespeople who were selling ladies shoes last week are given a quick overview of the 4 Cs and thrown out on the floor to sell, sell, sell.

Imagine how you would do when given this much training and someone comes in with charts of angles and dangles and AGS 0 cut grades and you have never yet heard of AGS. Sadly, the default seems to be set at disparage and burn anything you do not know about and swear that you are better than ANY Internet vendor, who are all inherently evil pillagers, only out to destroy your financial well being.

Now imagine that you are lucky enough to live near a jeweler who has great gemological training and who has kept up to date with current improvements in the gemological world. This jeweler will provide good gemological training to his staff and many of them pay for GIA training courses as they are completed online for their staff. This jeweler will know, and appreciate that AGS actually has a better, much better, cut grade than is available from GIA. (AGS Laboratory was actually started as a result of GIA refusing to provide good cut grading information to their diamond grading reports.).

This jeweler will have diamonds with both AGS and GIA reports and will normally only select the GIA excellent cut diamonds that are actually excellent often to the distress of their suppliers who are then forced to find other, less well educated jewelers to sell their steep deep garbage to. (Don't feel sorry for these suppliers, there are so many poorly educated jewelers out there for them to sell to.)

They make me feel like getting an AGS super ideal stone like an ACA is nothing special, but from everything I’ve seen on here for years now that just isn’t true.

Kal2021, Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find a local jeweler who has good gemological training and who also deals in super ideal cut diamonds and ask him to show you some of both and then make up your own eyes. Will you find, as so very many do, that YES, there is a difference and you love it enough to pay for it? Will you find, as so very many do, that YES there is a difference, but you don't want to pay for it? (Either is a valid choice. It is, after all, YOUR money and YOUR choice, driven by YOUR eyes.)

It sounds like you may already be working with such a jeweler. You might want to consider buying a diamond from the Internet jeweler of your choice and then taking the diamond in to your local jeweler to see it compared to his and determine which YOUR eyes like better.

So long as you have a good return policy and do so within the return policy dates, you have nothing to lose but a little postage and much to gain in knowing that YOU chose YOUR diamond based on YOUR decision of which is the BEST for YOU.

The, come back to the forum and share your experience with the others here. They will celebrate with you, no matter what your decision is.

Wink

 

[Dancing Fire]

It sounds like you may already be working with such a jeweler. You might want to consider buying a diamond from the Internet jeweler of your choice and then taking the diamond in to your local jeweler to see it compared to his and determine which YOUR eyes like better.

Wink

I'm gonna put my local jewelers to shame with my CBI. .

When I had my Octavia I did show it to a few local jewelers/SA and they would say something like "amazing stone" or ...I have never seen an Asscher sparkle like yours.

 

[kal2021]

This is a very good point. All diamonds should be viewed in person and with an open mind prior to purchase. There's something to be said for the ability to walk into a store and view multiple diamonds at one time and then choose which one your eye prefers in multiple different lighting conditions. Even among well-cut H&A diamonds, each individual diamond will have a different "flavor" in regards to how it performs in various lighting conditions. And most people do not have the liquid funds to order 6 different SuperIdeals, have them all delivered to their home for comparison, and then return the 5 they don't like.

I think part of the bashing of online jewelers, particularly the AGS-carrying SuperIdeal vendors, by B&M jewelers arises out of sheer ignorance. Many "gemologists" working at normal B&M jewelers have no formal training other than maybe the 4-hour walkthrough of how to deliver the 4-C's pitch to customers that was provided to them by their employer. They usually learn GIA excellent is the epitome of diamond cut, that all GIA excellents will perform more or less the same, and that anything other than GIA is worthless (at least, this is the spiel I was fed when I went to compare diamond colors at a B&M store).

But most of it comes down to them being killed in the price wars. They simply cannot compete with online jewelers with lower net overheads per diamond sold. So they'll try anything to talk down the online retailers to prevent the inevitable death of the B&M jeweler. Pretty similar to how most independent bookstores vehemently despised Amazon while Amazon was slowly sucking the life out of them, right up until the eventual demise of the independent bookstore in the early 2010s (I still miss independent bookstores sometimes though ).

Whenever a retailer sells at a higher price point than another retailer for the same product, they have to come up with justifications for why the end consumer should choose to pay the premium to purchase through them as opposed to with the cheaper competition (Marketing 101). This same marketing strategy is applied to SuperIdeal diamonds as well. "SuperIdeal" branded diamonds sell at a 25+% premium to equivalently well-cut diamonds that you can find through open market vendors. The SuperIdeal vendors do have great benefits, like excellent customer service, excellent upgrade policy's, and the fact that all of their diamonds are in-house for easy comparison. But the fact remains that they're selling a well-cut diamond that can also be found on the open market with a bit of diligent searching. So they're selling their "Brand" just as much as any B&M retailer is selling their "Brand"... just as much as any brand is selling their "Brand."

In summary, don't blame the B&M jeweler. They're doing what every retailer does, which is trying to persuade you of the superiority of their product and services so you'll buy from them. Whether you choose to buy from a B&M jeweler for the peace of mind of seeing a bunch of diamonds in person prior to purchase, from a "SuperIdeal" vendor for the peace of mind that the "SuperIdeal" label brings for many PS members, or from an open market online retailer for the peace of mind of getting the lowest cost possible on a well-cut H&A diamond: In the end, it is your decision and your peace of mind that you need to consider. B&M Jewelers, online jewelers, PriceScope members, member's of other diamond forums, your grandma. They'll all have their own opinions. After educating yourself, you need to make the decision that will make you happy.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and thorough response! I really appreciate it.

 

[bmfang]

Try searching for 1ct diamond on ebay looking for the lowest price.

Reminds me of one particular 2017 thread where eBay finds of 10ct D FL were put to us in the PS community for consultation.

I still wonder if she ever went to see Victor Canera to look at his H&A stones or if she ended up going with her gut and buying one of those horribly cut stones. As an “investment”.

 

[kal2021]

Many good points have been made above, including the point that it is bad form to bash one's competition.

Sadly, I think that one of the prime reasons jewelry store employees talk poorly about AGS and Online jewelers is both lack of knowledge and FEAR.

Many jewelers have no formal gemological training. They may have grown up on the bench side of the business, or they may have been hired by a jeweler who was impressed with their salesmanship while shopping for something else. These good salespeople who were selling ladies shoes last week are given a quick overview of the 4 Cs and thrown out on the floor to sell, sell, sell.

Imagine how you would do when given this much training and someone comes in with charts of angles and dangles and AGS 0 cut grades and you have never yet heard of AGS. Sadly, the default seems to be set at disparage and burn anything you do not know about and swear that you are better than ANY Internet vendor, who are all inherently evil pillagers, only out to destroy your financial well being.

Now imagine that you are lucky enough to live near a jeweler who has great gemological training and who has kept up to date with current improvements in the gemological world. This jeweler will provide good gemological training to his staff and many of them pay for GIA training courses as they are completed online for their staff. This jeweler will know, and appreciate that AGS actually has a better, much better, cut grade than is available from GIA. (AGS Laboratory was actually started as a result of GIA refusing to provide good cut grading information to their diamond grading reports.).

This jeweler will have diamonds with both AGS and GIA reports and will normally only select the GIA excellent cut diamonds that are actually excellent often to the distress of their suppliers who are then forced to find other, less well educated jewelers to sell their steep deep garbage to. (Don't feel sorry for these suppliers, there are so many poorly educated jewelers out there for them to sell to.)



Kal2021, Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to find a local jeweler who has good gemological training and who also deals in super ideal cut diamonds and ask him to show you some of both and then make up your own eyes. Will you find, as so very many do, that YES, there is a difference and you love it enough to pay for it? Will you find, as so very many do, that YES there is a difference, but you don't want to pay for it? (Either is a valid choice. It is, after all, YOUR money and YOUR choice, driven by YOUR eyes.)

It sounds like you may already be working with such a jeweler. You might want to consider buying a diamond from the Internet jeweler of your choice and then taking the diamond in to your local jeweler to see it compared to his and determine which YOUR eyes like better.

So long as you have a good return policy and do so within the return policy dates, you have nothing to lose but a little postage and much to gain in knowing that YOU chose YOUR diamond based on YOUR decision of which is the BEST for YOU.

The, come back to the forum and share your experience with the others here. They will celebrate with you, no matter what your decision is.

Wink

Thank you, Wink! I think buying a diamond and bringing it in to compare is a great idea! I appreciate your input.

 

[kal2021]

Thank you all so much for chiming in and giving such thoughtful replies. So helpful and kind of you all!

 

[Karl_K]

When you run into the GIA is the only lab types that are not shoe salesman ask about their training.
The answer will most likely be GIA, "Fred" who was trained by GIA, or my Dad/Mom who was in the trade for 50 years.
GIA is that ingrained through their education division in the trade.

These days anyone in the trade who pays attention should know about AGS, but there is a reality that for every legitimate 3 letter "lab" who issues reports there are hundreds of them that range from so-so to outright fraud.

 

[bmfang]

These days anyone in the trade who pays attention should know about AGS, but there is a reality that for every legitimate 3 letter "lab" who issues reports there are hundreds of them that range from so-so to outright fraud.

This might be more of a US-centric view. Most in the trade here in Australia don’t really know of AGS (unless they happen to be diamond specialists).

At my usual AD for watches (and they also sell an extensive range of jewellery), I’ve mentioned AGS before and the response I’ve received back is along the lines of “Are they like IGI or EGL? GIA is the best I have been told.”

At the other end of the spectrum, mall chains insist that the labs they use are comparable to GIA. These include plenty of labs with three or four letter acronyms. Some Michael Hill salespeople have insisted to me that GSI is a part of GIA. *facepalm*

 

[Rockdiamond]

Guys- like it or not AGS grades a tiny fraction of the stones GIA does. I’m taking like possibly less than 5% - maybe even less.
So the likelihood of anyone having heard of them is far less than having knowledge of GIA- even people in the trade.
If we examine the tiny sliver of the market owned by AGS, we will find that the majority of the stones graded are round.
All of this severely limits exposure even within the trade.