Which is visually (fire & scintillation) better?

[jechow]

If you were comparing two diamonds (one super-ideal and one non-ideal), everyone in this forum would speculate that the super-ideal diamond would demonstrate better fire & scintillation. But what if the two diamonds had similar angles and proportions such as

depth: 61.4 vs. 60.9
table: 57 vs. 56
crown: 34.9 vs. 35
pav: 40.8 vs. 40.9
report: GIA vg/vg vs.AGS000
HCA: 1.6 ex-ex-ex-vg vs. 1.8 ex-ex-vg-vg

Could the average individual looking at the diamonds INDIVIDUALLY, not side-by-side, distinguish between the two in terms of fire & scintillation? Why, am I missing something that contributes to its visual appearance?

Thanks

 

[aljdewey]

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On 1/6/2004 7:17:23 PM jechow wrote:





If you were comparing two diamonds (one super-ideal and one non-ideal), everyone in this forum would speculate that the super-ideal diamond would demonstrate better fire & scintillation. But what if the two diamonds had similar angles and proportions such as

depth: 61.4 vs. 60.9
table: 57 vs. 56
crown: 34.9 vs. 35
pav: 40.8 vs. 40.9
report: GIA vg/vg vs.AGS000
HCA: 1.6 ex-ex-ex-vg vs. 1.8 ex-ex-vg-vg

Could the average individual looking at the diamonds INDIVIDUALLY, not side-by-side, distinguish between the two in terms of fire & scintillation? Why, am I missing something that contributes to its visual appearance?

Thanks
----------------

Hi, JE.....Well, first a minor clarification point......the two diamonds above are comparable to superideal vs. ideal......not superideal vs. non-ideal.

And no, there is likely to be no discernable difference between them to *most* individuals (average or not)......even if they were side-by-side! Superideal proportions on a diamond are kind of like a D color.....where ideal proportions might be more like an F color - both are still colorless and there is a difference, but it's so subtle that it's not discernable to the eye.

Does that help?

 

[ThompsonTOT]

Hi alj,

Given what you said, should I just forget the H&A diamond (because it is super-ideal and there is no discernable difference between super-ideal and ideal) and go for ideal IS1 (because IS1 is as good as VVSI) color I (because I is as good as D)?

Or at that point does the "look" begin to suffer because I am compromising on too many Cs?

Thanks, Tony

 

[Mara]

I like the diamond on the left better by it's numbers.




But what's the price and color/clarity comparisons etc?




Also D is NOT like I in terms of color. While an eye-clean SI is going to be as good as an overpriced VVS...color is another matter. Some people see subtle changes in color...while others do not. So while most may argue that D-E is pretty darn white....some people start to see color at F-G and others not until H and some others until I (this is where I start to see color) and others not even until J. But an I colored stone will not be remotely like a D stone. If you are worried about compromising color too much, my safe advice is stick to H. My H stone is sooo white but I have seen some I's with color and others without. So I is a bit tricky...

 

[aljdewey]

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On 1/6/2004 7:56:15 PM ThompsonTOT wrote:





Hi alj,

Given what you said, should I just forget the H&A diamond (because it is super-ideal and there is no discernable difference between super-ideal and ideal) and go for ideal IS1 (because IS1 is as good as VVSI) color I (because I is as good as D)?

Or at that point does the 'look' begin to suffer because I am compromising on too many Cs?

Thanks, Tony
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Well, Tony, there are a few issues in those questions. Going from ideal to superideal is typically not much difference in $$, so my feeling is why not try to get the absolute best cut possible--providing it doesn't compromise other elements?

There IS a discernable difference between a D and an I.....but that doesn't mean there isn't room betwen those to get the best value. Most people find that at G/H, but I've seen a few really nice I stones as well. How much you should compromise on that tends to depend on what your budget is and what your desired size is. If you have a $3500 budget and you're trying to get close the a 1 ct., then I stones offer an excellent way to help you get there. If your budget is $3500 and you are looking in the .75 range, then I would look to get a better color.

In my opinion, clarity is least noticeable as long as a diamond is eyeclean, and is the area with the most give/savings.

Finding the right diamond means finding the best "blend" of all the Cs....cut, cost, carat, color, clarity.....to get the most value and prioritizing the Cs that are important to you. If you could give us a better idea of what budget range you're trying to stay in and what size you'd ideally like to be at, we could start there and look for the best blend. Once you see what's available from there, that's when you begin to determine how far short you are of "optimum" and what you should compromise to get there.

 

[strmrdr]

Iv got to disagree there is a visable difference between a super ideal h&a and an ideal.
Under some light conditions they might look close but the super ideal will look awesome under more light conditions.
In my opinion there is more difference between a h&a super ideal and a
ideal than there is between a D and an I.
And the step up in cut isnt that costly compared to the other C's

 

[aljdewey]

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On 1/6/2004 9:19:09 PM strmrdr wrote:





Iv got to disagree there is a visable difference between a super ideal h&a and an ideal.
Under some light conditions they might look close but the super ideal will look awesome under more light conditions.
In my opinion there is more difference between a h&a super ideal and a
ideal than there is between a D and an I.
And the step up in cut isnt that costly compared to the other C's
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Strm.....you may be one of the really, really sensitive ones......but I don't think your experience is typical of the average Joe Q. Layman.

The average "man on the street" would absolutely see a difference between a D and an I waaaaaay before he'd see the difference between a 34.7 degree crown angle and a 35 degree crown angle. My FI, who's almost completely devoid of technical differences in diamonds, remarked that he saw a bit of tint in the I stones we saw......and when you put them NEXT to a D or an F......big time difference!

He could not, however tell the difference between the AGS0 stone we looked at that had superideal proportions and the one that had 60/60 proportions (which fall below the AGS ideal proportion ranks).

All the average layman typically sees is HOW MUCH a well-cut diamond sparkles compared to most other run-of-the-mill diamonds. I'd "pepsi challenge" everyone in my 175-person company to actually see a PERFORMANCE difference between my ring with a 34.6 crown angle and one that has a 34 crown angle (which isn't superideal).

Having said all that, it's true that there is negligible difference between pricing in superideals vs. ideals, so I'd still lean toward super ideal proportions if possible. If Tony's going to drop just outside of ideal range, then he MIGHT see a VERY slight difference....and even then maybe not.....and that's where the savings would begin.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

actually there is a trade off between light return and fire, and contrast (related to scintillation) has a lot to do with this too.

In short the minor facets (lower girdles especially when related to table size) change the fire / scintillation. But if they go down (for a given set of crown pavilion) then the brilliance is likely to improve.

So it aint simple enough to be too analy retentive

 

[aljdewey]

But Garry.....Tony is asking is the typical layman would see a difference between a superideal and a "regular" ideal.......the stones rank 1.6 and 1.8 on the HCA respectively?




Are you really saying that the average person on the street viewing both stones would be able to pick the one with the lower scores?

 

[bacon]

No an average consumer would not see a difference.
The difference is a personal/mental thing for the owner.