shape
carat
color
clarity

Which diamond to choose?

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
Hi,
I am looking for 2 carats round diamond for my engagement ring.
Below are 3 diamonds that I think might be a good fit.
I am looking for VVS2 and above and F color and above, as I looked at G and F/E in VS2, and I could spot the deformity by my bare eyes. I know :(
So don't want that.
Can you rank them or point out issues and help me? Any help is appreciated :)
(1) https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-11647770
GIA cert : (2) https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...ferral&utm_campaign=earthdiamonds-ps&a_aid=ps
GIA cert : (3) https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...ferral&utm_campaign=earthdiamonds-ps&a_aid=ps
GIA cert: I was able to get idle scopes of this. attaching them below. 202068857_986839948720478_3488888275338105407_n.jpg 195904653_487061332396216_6105255539572765045_n.jpg
 

Fancygems

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
770
The second one you posted is more
Of a 60/60 flavor. Depends on what you are looking for in your Diamond.
 

Lookinagain

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
1,564
Hi,
I looked at G and F/E in VS2, and I could spot the deformity by my bare eyes. I know :(

What did you see in the VS2? Was it a black carbon spot? or something else? There are different kinds of inclusions, some more visible than others. Unless you look at stones with different kinds of inclusions, you won't know what you can see with your eyes. And you don't have to jump from VS2 to VVS2. You could look at VS1.
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
The second one you posted is more
Of a 60/60 flavor. Depends on what you are looking for in your Diamond.

what is a 6-/60 flavor? The diamond will be in pave setting, but kind of standing like a solitaire setting. I want my diamond to look big and beautiful in the setting and should reflect light beautifully and no fluorescence and it should be eye-clean.
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
What did you see in the VS2? Was it a black carbon spot? or something else? There are different kinds of inclusions, some more visible than others. Unless you look at stones with different kinds of inclusions, you won't know what you can see with your eyes. And you don't have to jump from VS2 to VVS2. You could look at VS1.

What did you see in the VS2? Was it a black carbon spot? or something else? There are different kinds of inclusions, some more visible than others. Unless you look at stones with different kinds of inclusions, you won't know what you can see with your eyes. And you don't have to jump from VS2 to VVS2. You could look at VS1.

The one I saw was VS1. (I totally forgot and wrote VS1 in the description).
They were more like scratch marks, but very visible to the naked eye.
 

Fancygems

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
770
what is a 6-/60 flavor? The diamond will be in pave setting, but kind of standing like a solitaire setting. I want my diamond to look big and beautiful in the setting and should reflect light beautifully and no fluorescence and it should be eye-clean.


 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
24,012
To be honest I'm not loving any of them. Do you like the long skinny arrows (80% lower halves)? Generally among Pricescopers
they prefer somewhat fatter arrows (more towards 75% lower halves). You are in the Super Ideal range price-wise and I suggest
you go take a look at them for the following reasons...AGS000 (Graded Ideal Light performance), Hearts and Arrows, excellent trade-up
policy. Tight angles and all the images needed to prove they are excellent performers.

With respect to the VS1 stone that you looked at and saw the inclusion...was this a magnified image or the actual stone you
viewed in person?

Here is GIA's definition of VS1 and 2 clarity
  • Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2) - Inclusions are minor and range from difficult to somewhat easy for a skilled grader to see under 10x magnification
What I'm trying to say is that in a GIA VS1 graded stone you should not be able to see anything. I don't think you should throw out
the baby with the bathwater.

Here is an Ideal cut stone...notice the arrows and the differences between the ones you posted and an Ideal cut stone?


Super Ideals are backed up with an excellent trade-up policy in case you want to go bigger someday (you never know=)2).
You only have to spend a dollar more to upgrade.

If you want to stick with JA let me know and I'll see what I can find.
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504
To add to the perfect recommendation that @tyty333 gave, here are all the WF ACA choices above 1.9ct, D-F color, up to VS2, for around a $37-39k price cap.
When it comes to the superior light performance of a diamond such as an ACA, don't be afraid to check out even the G-H colors as well, but that comes down to personal preference.



Here are some examples from the search:
Screenshot_20210620-081230.png
 
Last edited:

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,205
In addition to the excellent advice given by @tyty333, I want to expand on GIA and proportions.

To a certain degree, buying a diamond is a math and geometry game. All those proportions tell us about the cut. Depending how it’s cut will determine how much rainbow light color return, white light return and contrast you see in the stone. Everyone calls these things different things but some may say fire, sparkle or in your case, “reflect light beautifully”.

Reflection is a good term in many ways. Look at how different proportions can equate to different outcomes.

DB5CE961-7414-4302-86FA-075174D03E2F.jpeg

A graphic like that makes it look easy. Just pick the right proportions and you are golden. Yes and no. Getting the right proportions gets us so far but they are a guideline in many ways. Especially with GIA.

For instance, round diamonds have 8 actual crown angles and 8 actual pavilion angles. Yet on a lab report, you will see only 1 value for each. GIA does this by first averaging all 8 values and then by rounding the crown to the nearest 0.5 degree and the pavilion to the nearest 0.2 degrees. Tables are rounded to the nearest 1%. Star facets and lower girdle facets to the nearest 5%.

Suffice it to say, with averaging and rounding, GIA proportions may get us in the ballpark but it doesn’t assure us of anything. And the further we push the fringe, the more likelihood there is of that gross rounding biting us in the rear.

This is where advanced images, videos, etc come into play. The better info we have to make an educated decision on the cut quality, the more likely you are to be happy with your choice.

I am biased in the fact I believe cut is THE most important aspect of a diamond. If it’s not full of fire then IMO, it wasn’t worth my money.

Point blank, if I’m dropping $40k on a diamond it will have enough data that I have NO doubts about its performance. If that means sacrificing one of the other C’s (within reason) then I’m okay with that.

When shopping try to remember all the videos and photos you see are super magnified, most being in the 30-40x range. That is 3-4x higher than the 10x scopes the laboratories use to grade the stone. And incredibly more magnified than your naked eye. Some people do have Superman type vision but it’s very rare. Try to put that into perspective when considering clarity.
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
To be honest I'm not loving any of them. Do you like the long skinny arrows (80% lower halves)? Generally among Pricescopers
they prefer somewhat fatter arrows (more towards 75% lower halves). You are in the Super Ideal range price-wise and I suggest
you go take a look at them for the following reasons...AGS000 (Graded Ideal Light performance), Hearts and Arrows, excellent trade-up
policy. Tight angles and all the images needed to prove they are excellent performers.

With respect to the VS1 stone that you looked at and saw the inclusion...was this a magnified image or the actual stone you
viewed in person?

Here is GIA's definition of VS1 and 2 clarity
  • Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2) - Inclusions are minor and range from difficult to somewhat easy for a skilled grader to see under 10x magnification
What I'm trying to say is that in a GIA VS1 graded stone you should not be able to see anything. I don't think you should throw out
the baby with the bathwater.

Here is an Ideal cut stone...notice the arrows and the differences between the ones you posted and an Ideal cut stone?


Super Ideals are backed up with an excellent trade-up policy in case you want to go bigger someday (you never know=)2).
You only have to spend a dollar more to upgrade.

If you want to stick with JA let me know and I'll see what I can find.

Thank you for your insight :)
Honestly, I don't know about the arrows of the diamonds. I am searching based on the angle criteria.
The one that I saw in person, I was watching the diamond with my bare eyes, but very close, and the inclusions I saw looked like scratches.
The diamond you linked is very beautiful, but it has some fluorescence, which is a big no for me :(. I mean it's a stretch for my budget, but if it didn't have any fluro, I could have given it a thought.
Regarding budget, I can go up to 35k at James Allen (I have 25%)and 30k at other stores.
It's not like I want to stick to James Allen, I just want a good diamond worth of my money. The only reason they all are James Allen is my 25% off.

I will really appreciate if you can help me find a decent diamond :)
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504
25% off is rather amazing, so I recommend engaging with a JA SA and telling them to hunt you down a handful of diamonds that falls
within your preferred 4Cs, price range, and proportions/angles ranges which you can pick from.
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
To be honest I'm not loving any of them. Do you like the long skinny arrows (80% lower halves)? Generally among Pricescopers
they prefer somewhat fatter arrows (more towards 75% lower halves). You are in the Super Ideal range price-wise and I suggest
you go take a look at them for the following reasons...AGS000 (Graded Ideal Light performance), Hearts and Arrows, excellent trade-up
policy. Tight angles and all the images needed to prove they are excellent performers.

With respect to the VS1 stone that you looked at and saw the inclusion...was this a magnified image or the actual stone you
viewed in person?

Here is GIA's definition of VS1 and 2 clarity
  • Very Slightly Included (VS1 and VS2) - Inclusions are minor and range from difficult to somewhat easy for a skilled grader to see under 10x magnification
What I'm trying to say is that in a GIA VS1 graded stone you should not be able to see anything. I don't think you should throw out
the baby with the bathwater.

Here is an Ideal cut stone...notice the arrows and the differences between the ones you posted and an Ideal cut stone?


Super Ideals are backed up with an excellent trade-up policy in case you want to go bigger someday (you never know=)2).
You only have to spend a dollar more to upgrade.

If you want to stick with JA let me know and I'll see what I can find.

thoughts on this one?
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
25% off is rather amazing, so I recommend engaging with a JA SA and telling them to hunt you down a handful of diamonds that falls
within your preferred 4Cs, price range, and proportions/angles ranges which you can pick from.

thoughts on this one:
 

nehadp

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 16, 2021
Messages
23
In addition to the excellent advice given by @tyty333, I want to expand on GIA and proportions.

To a certain degree, buying a diamond is a math and geometry game. All those proportions tell us about the cut. Depending how it’s cut will determine how much rainbow light color return, white light return and contrast you see in the stone. Everyone calls these things different things but some may say fire, sparkle or in your case, “reflect light beautifully”.

Reflection is a good term in many ways. Look at how different proportions can equate to different outcomes.

DB5CE961-7414-4302-86FA-075174D03E2F.jpeg

A graphic like that makes it look easy. Just pick the right proportions and you are golden. Yes and no. Getting the right proportions gets us so far but they are a guideline in many ways. Especially with GIA.

For instance, round diamonds have 8 actual crown angles and 8 actual pavilion angles. Yet on a lab report, you will see only 1 value for each. GIA does this by first averaging all 8 values and then by rounding the crown to the nearest 0.5 degree and the pavilion to the nearest 0.2 degrees. Tables are rounded to the nearest 1%. Star facets and lower girdle facets to the nearest 5%.

Suffice it to say, with averaging and rounding, GIA proportions may get us in the ballpark but it doesn’t assure us of anything. And the further we push the fringe, the more likelihood there is of that gross rounding biting us in the rear.

This is where advanced images, videos, etc come into play. The better info we have to make an educated decision on the cut quality, the more likely you are to be happy with your choice.

I am biased in the fact I believe cut is THE most important aspect of a diamond. If it’s not full of fire then IMO, it wasn’t worth my money.

Point blank, if I’m dropping $40k on a diamond it will have enough data that I have NO doubts about its performance. If that means sacrificing one of the other C’s (within reason) then I’m okay with that.

When shopping try to remember all the videos and photos you see are super magnified, most being in the 30-40x range. That is 3-4x higher than the 10x scopes the laboratories use to grade the stone. And incredibly more magnified than your naked eye. Some people do have Superman type vision but it’s very rare. Try to put that into perspective when considering clarity.

thoughts on this one:
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,205
Because of GIA gross rounding I mentioned in post #10 above I am hesitant to blindly accept GIA 35/40.8. Partially because in stones with this c/p relationship and similar complimentary proportions you sometimes see great stones or leakage when advanced imaging is available. It depends on the actual values

I would ask JA to provide an idealscope (IS) image of the stone in question before pulling the trigger. If one isn’t available I would recommend you buy your own IS or ASET scope and check the stone upon receipt. If it has leakage you can make a decision to keep if it’s minimal or send back and start the process over.

Also I would encourage you to learn a bit more about fluorescence. It is okay to not want any but you need to understand AGS and GIA report slightly differently. So automatic rejection of AGS “negligible” is quite critical and not based on sound logic.

Below are stones from GIA. Notice the grades none & faint are nearly identical?

D7C5E78F-BE8D-48B7-BC49-3E232C57E4D1.png

Now look at AGS stones graded negligible.

6C2DC782-49A7-4EB9-B937-83B62B33BA0E.png

Two primary factors make a stone fluorescence: the intensity of the UV light and the strength of the fluor a stone possesses. Even a very strong fluor stone can barely show signs of fluor when there is barely any UV light rays to “excite” the stone and activate it.

Why does this matter? Because AGS takes an approach that under the right (extreme) levels of UV a stone may exhibit negligible signs of fluor.

GIA further clarifies their “none” grade to mean the following: “A fluorescence description of ‘none’ represents a range of fluorescence from indiscernible to very faint. Used for identification purposes.”

in other words, GIA none also encompasses up to faint which in essence is the same as AGS negligible. So by eliminating AGS negligible all you have effectively done is eliminate all AGS stones from your search criteria.

This is absolutely your money and you should spend as you see fit. I just hate to see you eliminate a perfectly great stone like @tyty333 suggested because of misinformation. If it doesn’t fit budget or other reasons than so be it.

If you would like to learn more, this article is very informative.

 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
24,012
I've never heard of 25% off on stones at JA. Usually when JA does the 25% off its on jewelry and settings...NOT on stones.
Do you have something different from the usual 25% off?

So, you need to re-read @sledge 's previous post. Just because GIA says None on Fluorescence doesn't mean its 0. Just not
enough to get it to the next level (Faint). AGS uses the term Neglible to cover the range that GIA says is None. @sledge said
it better than me...so, I suggest you reread what he wrote above.

The problem is that you are prioritizing the word "None" for Fluorescence over Ideal Cut with Fluorescene in the Neglible range.
Ideal Cut is way more important than these really low, low levels of fluorescence. Did you notice the cut difference between the
stones you posted and the ones we have posted?

So, if you could let us know if you actually have 25% off stones that would be great. That way we can figure out your real budget
and try to help you find a beautiful stone!
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,205
I've never heard of 25% off on stones at JA. Usually when JA does the 25% off its on jewelry and settings...NOT on stones.
Do you have something different from the usual 25% off?

This was plastered on their front page. The fine print is what gets you. Indeed, 25% off the settings, not the diamond. Obviously, OP may have something special but I am thinking this is their deal.

Also, requires the purchase of a TRUE HEARTS diamond. The stone last proposed is not a TH, so it doesn't qualify for the 25% off the setting anyhow.

Searching JA for 2+ carats in F+ color and VS1+ clarity yielded 3 whole results. One of which met that the $30k cap. That stone has two translucent arrows indicating actual pavilion angle is over the 41.2 tipping point so light isn't properly reflecting off the pavilion. Not what I'd consider a true hearts & arrow stone at all, but no need chasing down that rabbit hole at this point.

Ironically....

$29k JA TH = GIA certified, strong fluor
$35k JA TH = AGS certified, negligible fluor
$40k JA TH = GIA certified, medium fluor

Edited to Add:
Fluor levels of each of the 3 JA stones.

Capture-ja.PNG
Capture-ja2.PNG

Capture.PNG
 
Last edited:

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
13,642
This was plastered on their front page. The fine print is what gets you. Indeed, 25% off the settings, not the diamond. Obviously, OP may have something special but I am thinking this is their deal.

Also, requires the purchase of a TRUE HEARTS diamond. The stone last proposed is not a TH, so it doesn't qualify for the 25% off the setting anyhow.

Searching JA for 2+ carats in F+ color and VS1+ clarity yielded 3 whole results. One of which met that the $30k cap. That stone has two translucent arrows indicating actual pavilion angle is over the 41.2 tipping point so light isn't properly reflecting off the pavilion. Not what I'd consider a true hearts & arrow stone at all, but no need chasing down that rabbit hole at this point.

Capture-ja.PNG
Capture-ja2.PNG

Capture.PNG

That's what I figured was happening. They never do 25% off stones themselves, so unless OP has a trade-in, this is the current sale.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,205
If AGS negligible ever becomes a possibility, here are some potential alternates.

WF ES 2.007 F-VS1 @ $30,244 wire

This is a "near miss" hearts & arrow (H&A) stone that is part of WF's "expert select" collection. You get a slight discount for not meeting their super strict A Cut Above (ACA) collection, and still eligible to trade up, down or sideways in their very generous lifetime trade program that only requires you spend $1 more, no other strings.

Although a near miss ACA, IMO, it's much better than any of those 3 JA TH's in regards to cut quality. It has great color, clarity & fits the $30k budget. Also, it pushes you just over the 2 carat mark if that number is important to you.

WF ACA 1.90 E-VS1 @ $30,604 wire

This is a true H&A stone with all the pedigree to go with it. Icy white E color and VS1 clarity, that is still within budget. The trade-off is about 0.10 carat weight, which equivalates to about 0.20mm in spread (diameter). In the US imperial measuring system, 0.20mm is equal to about 1/128th of an inch.

Below is a picture of a ruler with typical US measurements on the top & mm/cm on the bottom. The smallest imperial reading being 1/16th inch and the smallest metric reading being 1mm. I tried to draw a red line to roughly show the size difference, but you can barely see it.

In short, about 0.20mm is about the sweet spot where the naked eye can see size difference when two stones are side by side, but it's a very small difference.

719bcud+erL._AC_SL1220_.jpg
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504
will it look big (like a 2 carat), reflect good light?

Yes, absolutely!
It's a 2.03 carat with a 40.8° pavilion angle paired with a 35° crown angle and a 57% table width paired with a 15% crown height, so it'll look spot-on for a 2 carat diamond.

HCA score is 1.6 (between 1 and 2 is considered ideal for a ring setting) with gradings as follows:
Light Return: Excellent
Fire: Excellent
Scintillation: Excellent
Spread: Very Good

Being an F color with those measurements and proportions, should look nice and icy white in diffused lighting and throw off some nice colored light flashes in direct lighting.

203FVS1.png
 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
504
Ask for the GIA reports on the following options:



 
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