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Where has the labor force gone?

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
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i think you're right...there will be some people who would prefer not to but if you offered basic income at a subsistence level and people could go out and make more, most people are going to go work for more
This has been proven to be the case in other 'trials'.
The other thing we need to remember is PUA is finite, as is all unemployment. The work requirements will be reinstituted.
I must be delusional too, because that's what I thought. Imagine my surprise when I learned that she made more money per month than I did, and I was working full time. She gloated and bragged about all her money for doing NOTHING, while I was busting my butt. There are a sect of people out there are lazy to the core. Maybe she could have made 50% more if she was actually working, but that wasn't enough of a simulator when she knew she could make enough to pay bills, and have extra, without working.
These people who committed what is essentially fraud better be real careful, because I can guarantee the government is going to be extra vigilant about going after cases they know are happening once the pandemic is over.
I say you're not grasping my point because you're still trying to dumb it down. By quoting me and then going off about classism, elitism, and trickle down economics, NONE of which is actually even tangentially close to what I had been trying to express, aren't you casting aspersions and suggesting I hold illiberal views that I don't actually hold?

I don't appreciate being deliberately misconstrued, being automatically assigned a false label because I don't ascribe to groupthink on any issue.

Trickle down economics is not the solution. I'm saying that I am doubting your belief (feasibility wise) that we can provide these things to everyone. It's true that every other first world nation provide them, but without having done the research, I don't know whether every other first world nation has expenditures and government debt to the extent we do. Each individual European nation, after all, has a fraction of our population, and less disparity geographically compared to our nation.

Expectations are expectations, and reality is reality. I fully agree it's possible in theory to do better, but the political reality may yield different answers.

Your expectations and beliefs are not facts and evidence. I noticed you did not deign to respond to the fact that the US government draws the poverty line at a much lower point than you drew it.

Okay, and I'm saying I don't agree with your worldview. Your beliefs are also, just that. You don't need to insult me. You have no proof that applying living wages can't work or be sustained. In fact many first worlds are doing just that. And my having a different opinion is not dumbing it down. No one can live on 12k dollars a year, anywhere in the US. Without assistance? I'd be interested to see anyone make that math work.
I thought it's not a flat $700/wk everywhere. I think it's a percentage of your pre-unemployment pay PLUS an additional $700/wk.
It looks like MA gets about 1100.00 a week or $31 an hour as a maximum.
MS gets about 550 ish or $14 as a maximum benefit.

So yeah, 15 bucks an hour lifts people out of poverty in the lowest cost of living areas.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I do, that's why I said I disagree with some of your position.
America is the richest country, we like to pretend we're the best. We're not. That's my point. We can afford and can pay/treat our people better.
'
Really?, did you pay off our $30 trillion debt?
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Really?, did you pay off our $30 trillion debt?

What? That doesn't make sense. All countries have debt. Did you?
But I must make an amendment because I did find out that America is actually now the 5th richest country. So I learned something new today.
 

voce

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people who committed what is essentially fraud better be real careful, because I can guarantee the government is going to be extra vigilant about going after cases they know are happening once the pandemic is over.
I hope so.
Okay, and I'm saying I don't agree with your worldview. Your beliefs are also, just that. You don't need to insult me. You have no proof that applying living wages can't work or be sustained. In fact many first worlds are doing just that. And my having a different opinion is not dumbing it down. No one can live on 12k dollars a year, anywhere in the US. Without assistance? I'd be interested to see anyone make that math work.
Where did you see me claim without assistance? I actually lived on 12k a year as a starving artist in 2009 in LA, admittedly borrowing my parents' car for which they paid insurance. I admittedly did not pay health insurance, rent for a room and a bathroom cost $7.2k a year in Burbank, food cost $2-3k a year, and I had $2k a year left over for gas and other expenses.

And from 2017-2018 I had lived as a full-time student in Cambridge, Massachusetts on $12k a year or less. I had stipends for summer abroad, near to full tuition need based scholarship, and I was able to get myself into a 30-person co-op that charged me just $6000 a year* for housing plus food.

So I would disagree with your statement. I know it's possible because I have done it, in an expensive area.

We obviously have different world views. But where did I insult you? Because I said you didn't grasp my point since you kept bringing up arguments tangential to what I was trying to express? It's all a matter of perception and you are free to see insult where I meant none.

I do not believe in any such BS idea as trickle down economics. Disparity exists, and I don't think there is any easy solution, nor do I pretend to have the answers.

When it comes to belief, yes, we each have our own. I've admitted that is theoretically possible, at least, to achieve what you want us to achieve. You seem to think you have all the answers and that my doubt of the feasibility of not only undertaking, but completing such a daunting accomplishment, makes me insulting to say the least.

Belief is like religion. You can't have definitive proof, either for or against, whether Jesus is God or Mohammed was a prophet. What I perceived (and I'll be there first to admit I could be mistaken) is that you think I need to give you proof why providing your definition of living wage is not feasible, or else I must be mistaken.

My world view is that most things are in the realm of probability and possibility. And of course, I assess the odds very differently from you.

*Edit: spring and fall semesters; I was not there for the summers, and they didn't bill winter. I was extremely resourceful, and I found all sorts of opportunities. This doesn't mean I expect everyone can find such opportunities, or be so resourceful. It just means that what you claim to be impossible, I know can be possible some of the time. Thus I tend to refrain from making absolute declarations as "impossible" and merely say "unlikely".
 
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Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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You know how you can remove the constraint on government budget? Just have a socialist revolution. Re-appropriate the property from the haves to the have-nots.
It'll be here sooner than you think. Socialism here we come.
 

voce

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Also, to clarify--when I say aspirations to improve your skills, it means learning on the job, with the attitude of yes, you can update your skill set. It does not mean a degree in higher education. It means having the mentality that you can do your own job better.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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The owner of my favorite restaurant told me that all of her employees (who are also her family members) quit, and they told her that they make more money on unemployment than they did at actual work.
Exactly! . That's the reason why I'm home drinking beer all day long... drinksemot.gif :shhh:
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Fair enough.
I never said I had all the answers, just that I think we can provide the necessary elements for elevated living in this country.

You asserted that Gov't poverty lines were what the metric for living was based.
Where did you see me claim without assistance? I actually lived on 12k a year as a starving artist in 2009 in LA, admittedly borrowing my parents' car for which they paid insurance. I admittedly did not pay health insurance, rent for a room and a bathroom cost $7.2k a year in Burbank, food cost $2-3k a year, and I had $2k a year left over for gas and other expenses.

And from 2017-2018 I had lived as a full-time student in Cambridge, Massachusetts on $12k a year or less. I had stipends for summer abroad, near to full tuition need based scholarship, and I was able to get myself into a 30-person co-op that charged me just $6000 a year* for housing plus food. *Edit: spring and fall semesters; I was not there for the summers, and they didn't bill winter.

So as a caveat- you're own story, that's not actually surviving. In neither scenario are you paying regular expenses. And not for a sustained period.
That's college communal living with stipends for part of the year, and also 'living' as an artist with familial support.
That's why the minimum wage of $15 was agreed upon after much research by many experts.
That's also why the PUA lifted millions of kids out of poverty for the first time. The threshold of minimum wage was reached. With the wage most social safety nets would be reduced and it would be cheaper for us as a nation.
Also, to clarify--when I say aspirations to improve your skills, it means learning on the job, with the attitude of yes, you can update your skill set. It does not mean a degree in higher education. It means having the mentality that you can do your own job better.
And are you the arbiter of the 'right' attitude? I think millions of low wage workers who work hard could construe that as insulting/patronizing. Low skilled work is honest work and deserves to sustain a person.
 
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Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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i think you're right...there will be some people who would prefer not to but if you offered basic income at a subsistence level and people could go out and make more, most people are going to go work for more
IYO, How much? and where is the money coming from?
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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What? That doesn't make sense. All countries have debt. Did you?
But I must make an amendment because I did find out that America is actually now the 5th richest country. So I learned something new today.
Yes, that's when I had a mortgage to pay. Unlike our government I paid off my debt in 2005.
 
W

westofhere

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Just want to say that I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this debate.



(& if anyone wants a distraction, the guy in the “Jewelry Pieces” forum who had a wedding band disaster deserves some love)
 

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
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Yes, that's when I had a mortgage to pay. Unlike our government I paid off my debt in 2005.

That's awesome :bigsmile: I envy you, not quite there yet!
But the national economy is really nothing like small domestic economy.
 

MrsBlue

Brilliant_Rock
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she's a liar lair pants on fire is what I told my hubby. I threatened to call the state and snitch her out for lying, but I can't prove it. whomp whomp. >:(

Sounds like she has a screw loose. In my state, max unemployment is only around $700 a week before taxes.
 

Lookinagain

Ideal_Rock
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Also, to clarify--when I say aspirations to improve your skills, it means learning on the job, with the attitude of yes, you can update your skill set. It does not mean a degree in higher education. It means having the mentality that you can do your own job better.
There is one issue with this and that is that many businesses (I'm not saying all) don't have time to hire people who need to "learn on the job". Everything moves much faster these days than they did, say 20 or 25 years ago. Technology has made it so that, at least in business, everything needs to be immediate. A new hire who needs time to learn, doesn't have the luxury of time to ask a lot of questions as they are expected to answer that email right away. So employers are looking for people who can hit the ground running. It is unfortunate, but true.
 
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Lookinagain

Ideal_Rock
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It looks like MA gets about 1100.00 a week or $31 an hour as a maximum.
MS gets about 550 ish or $14 as a maximum benefit.

So yeah, 15 bucks an hour lifts people out of poverty in the lowest cost of living areas.

And everyone doesn't get the maximum benefit. Only the highest wage earners do.
 

voce

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You asserted that Gov't poverty lines were what the metric for living was based.
No, I didn't. You asserted that $33k was not enough to be above the poverty line. I was citing a source that has the poverty line drawn somewhere else. At no point did I say poverty line = living wage. My point of view is always that it depends on where you live, and on what your expenses are. Expenses will differ from person to person.
So as a caveat- you're own story, that's not actually surviving. In neither scenario are you paying regular expenses. And not for a sustained period.
That's college communal living with stipends for part of the year, and also 'living' as an artist with familial support.
That's why the minimum wage of $15 was agreed upon after much research by many experts.
That's also why the PUA lifted millions of kids out of poverty for the first time. The threshold of minimum wage was reached. With the wage most social safety nets would be reduced and it would be cheaper for us as a nation.
Excuse me, I got through that period of my life unharmed and did not come out with health problems. A person living healthily is not surviving by I know not what definition you have for survival. My family gave me no support as a starving artist, apart from letting me use the car, and that was only after I had my $1200 used car totaled in a car accident that was not my fault.

I didn't apply for any welfare. Had I done so, I would have "survived" very well. Of course, I aspired to more prosperity; that's exactly why I got myself out.

And are you the arbiter of the 'right' attitude? I think millions of low wage workers who work hard could construe that as insulting/patronizing. Low skilled work is honest work and deserves to sustain a person.
It is, and it does deserve to sustain a person, and at my company it pays about $50k a year, which in this area is enough to sustain a family of 3. My coworkers and I agree that the people in this area who are truly poor are those that can't hold their jobs, due to an attitude on the job of "this is how I've always done things, I'm not going to do things the way you want me to, I'm not willing to adjust and adopt". So they get fired and never work at any one place for long.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I didn't apply for any welfare. Had I done so, I would have "survived" very well. Of course, I aspired to more prosperity; that's exactly why I got myself out.

Good for you! :clap: welfare will only prolong poverty.
 
W

westofhere

Guest
Voce, I’m a college professor. I’ve taught at 50k a year private colleges and state universities. The privilege of having parents whose car you can borrow and who can pay for your insurance is massive. The choices one can make when parents are not poor are very different. So many of the brightest students have told me they can’t go to grad school in the arts or humanities because they can’t afford to live on a 10-15k TAship even though it comes with a tuition waiver and health insurance because they have to do something practical so they can help support their parents, or feed their children. Choosing to be broke for a few years is one of the most privileged things we can do, and I implicate myself in that because I did it, too. We’ve created a culture where privileged mediocre students thrive and unprivileged excellent students often don’t get to enter the playing field.
 

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
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My point of view is always that it depends on where you live, and on what your expenses are. Expenses will differ from person to person.

And that can't be had for under $15, that's not my metric, that's the experts.
Excuse me, I got through that period of my life unharmed and did not come out with health problems. A person living healthily is not surviving by I know not what definition you have for survival. My family gave me no support as a starving artist, apart from letting me use the car, and that was only after I had my $1200 used car totaled in a car accident that was not my fault.

I didn't apply for any welfare. Had I done so, I would have "survived" very well. Of course, I aspired to more prosperity; that's exactly why I got myself out.

Okay, but it just proves my point.
Not the same as someone working a full time job a poverty wages with no 'help' with or without dependents with full costs of living. Not everyone can be a high skilled laborer for myriad reasons. They wouldn't survive without welfare, that's the point.
It is, and it does deserve to sustain a person, and at my company it pays about $50k a year, which in this area is enough to sustain a family of 3. My coworkers and I agree that the people in this area who are truly poor are those that can't hold their jobs, due to an attitude on the job of "this is how I've always done things, I'm not going to do things the way you want me to, I'm not willing to adjust and adopt". So they get fired and never work at any one place for long.

But not for those contract workers you can't find, right?
Who are you to dictate what is meaningful work or it's worth? The world won't run without the janitors and cleaners and CNAs. Some of those low wages are skilled workers as well. You know, like preschool teachers.
That's a whole lot of assumptions for people you don't know and don't know the struggle of long term poverty for their experience and lives. It circles back to this idea of 'deserving'.
 

voce

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Voce, I’m a college professor. I’ve taught at 50k a year private colleges and state universities. The privilege of having parents whose car you can borrow and who can pay for your insurance is massive. The choices one can make when parents are not poor are very different. So many of the brightest students have told me they can’t go to grad school in the arts or humanities because they can’t afford to live on a 10-15k TAship even though it comes with a tuition waiver and health insurance because they have to do something practical so they can help support their parents, or feed their children. Choosing to be broke for a few years is one of the most privileged things we can do, and I implicate myself in that because I did it, too. We’ve created a culture where privileged mediocre students thrive and unprivileged excellent students often don’t get to enter the playing field.

This is exactly why it's primarily the offspring of the well-to-do who go on the careers in the arts, while children of poorer parents become the doctors and engineers and accountants and lawyers?

Just want to add, my parents likewise made it to a point of prosperity from the days of my dad making only $500 a month, while my mom sewed tags in a garment factory in LA for 2 cents each too supplement his income.

It seems to me lots of non-immigrant Americans complain about how unfair things are and it's the fault of corporations and this and that that it's "impossible" to earn a decent living wage. But I see lots and lots of people who do make it out, my family included, so I'm left scratching my head, because yes conditions are hard, but definitely not impossible.

What did I ever mention about what's meaningful or not? Yet again, you are bringing into the conversation something I never said, to cast your imaginary aspersions on what I supposedly said or believe.
 
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Lookinagain

Ideal_Rock
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It is, and it does deserve to sustain a person, and at my company it pays about $50k a year, which in this area is enough to sustain a family of 3. My coworkers and I agree that the people in this area who are truly poor are those that can't hold their jobs, due to an attitude on the job of "this is how I've always done things, I'm not going to do things the way you want me to, I'm not willing to adjust and adopt". So they get fired and never work at any one place for long.

I'm going to push back on this. First, I think we should leave salaries out of this because $50k may be enough in your area to sustain a family of 3, but it barely sustains one person in my area, after taxes. And it wouldn't sustain you in Cambridge today if you were not a student, unless you lived with several other people. So let's leave salaries out of this because it is too regional.

But the bolded part is kind of inaccurate and/or insensitive. Yes, there are people who say that, generally it's someone who has been at the same job a long time so is probably older. They don't always get fired. They may not advance, because they aren't willing to learn anything new, but to say they don't work anywhere for long is probably wrong. Generally it is the people who have been in the same job a long time that say that, hence my comment about "older". And therefore they aren't often fired because companies are worried about an age discrimination suit, as well as just caring that they don't put an older person (who may not find a much needed new job) out on the street. Just my two cents, but I do work for a very large company and all this comes into play in management decisions.
 

voce

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And that can't be had for under $15, that's not my metric, that's the experts.


Okay, but it just proves my point.
Not the same as someone working a full time job a poverty wages with no 'help' with or without dependents with full costs of living. Not everyone can be a high skilled laborer for myriad reasons. They wouldn't survive without welfare, that's the point.


But not for those contract workers you can't find, right?
Who are you to dictate what is meaningful work or it's worth? The world won't run without the janitors and cleaners and CNAs. Some of those low wages are skilled workers as well. You know, like preschool teachers.
That's a whole lot of assumptions for people you don't know and don't know the struggle of long term poverty for their experience and lives. It circles back to this idea of 'deserving'.

How do I not know? I know immigrant grad students. I know friends who have been dirt poor all of their lives until they finally made it out. I myself have lived poor for years of my life. How can you assume I don't? And it's you who keeps bringing up "deserving". All of these people deserve better, but some actually manage to achieve better.

As I said before, what someone deserves is a separate matter from what the real world gives to them. I think most of us deserve better than what we got.
 
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voce

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I'm going to push back on this. First, I think we should leave salaries out of this because $50k may be enough in your area to sustain a family of 3, but it barely sustains one person in my area, after taxes. And it wouldn't sustain you in Cambridge today if you were not a student, unless you lived with several other people. So let's leave salaries out of this because it is too regional.

But the bolded part is kind of inaccurate and/or insensitive. Yes, there are people who say that, generally it's someone who has been at the same job a long time so is probably older. They don't always get fired. They may not advance, because they aren't willing to learn anything new, but to say they don't work anywhere for long is probably wrong. Generally it is the people who have been in the same job a long time that say that, hence my comment about "older". And therefore they aren't often fired because companies are worried about an age discrimination suit, as well as just caring that they don't put an older person (who may not find a much needed new job) out on the street. Just my two cents, but I do work for a very large company and all this comes into play in management decisions.

Yes, companies vary. I can only speak anecdotally as someone who helps with HR in a small company.
 

Lookinagain

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But I see lots and lots of people who do make it out, my family included, so I'm left scratching my head, because yes conditions are hard, but definitely not impossible.

yes, but it was easier to make it out for our immigrant parents than it is for people today. Post-war America and after was "the land of opportunity" for many. Yes, they struggled, and were poor, but they had a light that they could see at the end of the tunnel that isn't there for much of the same population today. It may be for the exceptional people, but not so much for the average ones. My opinion, and it's just my own, is that it is harder to make it out today than it was for the generation before us. I don't exactly know why, or have the answer, of course, but I do have this observation/opinion.
 

voce

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yes, but it was easier to make it out for our immigrant parents than it is for people today. Post-war America and after was "the land of opportunity" for many. Yes, they struggled, and were poor, but they had a light that they could see at the end of the tunnel that isn't there for much of the same population today. It may be for the exceptional people, but not so much for the average ones. My opinion, and it's just my own, is that it is harder to make it out today than it was for the generation before us. I don't exactly know why, or have the answer, of course, but I do have this observation/opinion.

I think it's outsourcing to other countries and technology making some low skill jobs not needed. Maybe there is no light at the end of the tunnel; I'm certainly pessimistic about losing jobs to AI, and I don't know what we could try apart from Andrew Yang's UBI and technology dividend ideas... And I still think only time will tell whether those ideas are actual solutions.
 

Lookinagain

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Yes, I agree that outsourcing is part of the problem, along with the fact that wages generally have not risen with the cost of living in many parts of the country. So even if a young person can manage to support themselves, and has a job with benefits, they often don't have enough extra to put money away into that 401k or IRA to gain from investments . Obviously I'm not talking about unskilled workers here or people in the service industries, many of whom have no benefits. But even those who work for larger companies are still not always making enough to save anything in the programs that are now in place instead of the pensions that prior generations may have enjoyed. And we have all heard that SS will be broke in the not to distant future. So what does that mean for these younger workers? I really don't know.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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How do I not know? I know immigrant grad students. I know friends who have been dirt poor all of their lives until they finally made it out. I myself have lived poor for years of my life. How can you assume I don't? And it's you who keeps bringing up "deserving". All of these people deserve better, but some actually actually manage to achieve better.
That doesn't negate the need for a living wage.
That's good, but it has nothing to do with menial laborers making an honest living. Not everyone can 'achieve better' which is arbitrary in any event depending on who you ask. Most born into poverty, stay there. We are at the lowest points in social mobility as a developed nation. It's unnecessary.
They should have living wages for doing whatever it is they do as a needed service in our society. Not everyone can be the doctor or lawyer or what have you.

You tell me?

My coworkers and I agree that the people in this area who are truly poor are those that can't hold their jobs, due to an attitude on the job of "this is how I've always done things, I'm not going to do things the way you want me to, I'm not willing to adjust and adopt". So they get fired and never work at any one place for long.


Just want to add, my parents likewise made it to a point of prosperity from the days of my dad making only $500 a month, while my mom sewed tags in a garment factory in LA for 2 cents each too supplement his income.
Which is wonderful, but also not the end point for many.
What time period was this? I only ask as to get a handle on inflation/buying power in relation to now. That $500.00 is 1650.00 in 80's dollars and 1000.00 in 90's. It's 3500.00 in the 70's(which at that time is a decent wage).
But it highlights exactly why I think we should be doing everything in our power to improve the situation.
This is exactly what I want to end, there was absolutely no reason for them to earn poverty wages in a first world country, they were exploited by our system partly because they were immigrants. I think they deserved a living wage then, and now.
 

bludiva

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IYO, How much? and where is the money coming from?

i'm not an economist to know what level but how about from that same place that prints money for corporate bailouts?

from what i've read, economists have mixed opinions on UBI but what we're doing now doesn't work, the experiment in Stockton CA yielded good results, why not try more pilot programs?
 
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