What $$$ would considered as a good annual income in your area?

[Dancing Fire]

We will not down size b/c our property tax is low (about $3100) it can only go up a max. of 2% annually. We have been living in the same house for the past 30 yrs. Our 2300 sq ft. house cost us about $650 per month including property tax, insurance and utility bills, so it is cheaper to live in this house than moving into an apartment.

 

[OoohShiny]

Is all the talk in this thread about property tax because you American folk have to pay a monthly tax based solely on the size of your property??

I guess now I write that out we do have 'Council Tax' to pay to the Local Authorities over here, but an average 3-4 bed house in an average area is probably paying maybe £2k-£3k a year at very most!

 

[redwood66]

OS it is based on the value of the property as assessed by the local government entity. Mine is $1800 per year but more expensive areas can be more than $20k per year. Maybe much more than that but someone else can chime in.

 

[Slickk]

Oh yes! Property taxes in my NYC suburb can easily be $18k-$36 and even higher per year. It's crazy! And btw, that doesn't include services like municipal water or sewer. We only recently got trash removal "included."

 

[Dancing Fire]

Is all the talk in this thread about property tax because you American folk have to pay a monthly tax based solely on the size of your property??

In our country property tax will start at approx. 1.2% of your purchased price, and it can increase up to 2% annually depending on how much your property value have had gone up.

 

[OoohShiny]

Blimey, that sounds pretty harsh...

In the UK we have the Council Tax bands but they're set at the point the building is constructed and based on the last year the bands were reviewed - they don't increase yearly based on your house prices, fortunately, but are more based on the services the local authorities (including the Police) are providing and the level of funding required/desired for them.

This is a useful explanation:
http://www.which.co.uk/money/tax/council-tax/guides/council-tax-bands

Council tax bands in England
Properties in England are put into one of eight bands (A-H), depending on the price they would have sold for in April 1991, when valuations for the current system were made. The valuation band ranges for England are as follows:

Council tax bands in England
Council tax band Ranges of value
A Up to £40,000
B More than £40,000 and up to £52,000
C More than £52,000 and up to £68,000
D More than £68,000 and up to £88,000
E More than £88,000 and up to £120,000
F More than £120,000 and up to £160,000
G More than £160,000 and up to £320,000
H More than £320,000

and this is an example of a Local Authority's explanation of how it got to the 2017-18 financial year Council Tax figures, the PDF breaking it down by expenditure:
https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/residents/council-tax/council-tax-and-how-it-is-calculated/overview/

 

[missy]

mrs-b I was responding about not just income but savings to be in the top 1%. Not just basing it on income. It's a complicated formula and I wasn't saying anything hard and fast at all. Just saying that even with lets say a hypothetical income of $450K you *might* not be in the top 1%.

But if we are just going by income check out this link. And I am from NYC by the way.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/16/news/economy/top-1/index.html

 

[missy]

mrs-b sorry I just clicked onto your link. LOL I have a bad habit of responding then reading the link.
And your link also supports what I said initially. Perhaps you misunderstood me? Anyway I said that if one was earning $450K in NYC that would not get you into the top 1%. And that holds true with your link as well...

At least I think that is what I wrote. I guess I should go back and reread it.

OK went back and this is exactly what I wrote:

And believe it or not these numbers posed here don't qualify those who are earning them the top 1% status...just saying.

 

[Dizzie]

Wow, I just read the link and only realized how different the numbers are. Just for your reference in Germany according to the authorities you have to make above €120.000 to be in top 1% (appr US $130-135K).

 

[ringbling17]

I think it all depends on what one considers comfortable and necessary as opposed to what one wants and desires.
Some people are good with a two bedroom townhouse while others want more space.
In my area from what I looked up (and this was from Wiki but from the 2006/2010 census so take it for what it's worth) the median household income was $102,162 (with a margin of error of +/- $10,851) and the median family income was $121,366 (+/- $9,400).
So I would go with that.

 

[t-c]

I think people are getting hung up on the numbers when their eyes pop out as they read people posting $500k for an upper middle-class lifestyle in NYC. But let's define an upper middle-class lifestyle first. To me, it means:

1. Owning a nice home in a nice area
2. Car(s)
3. Able to afford a nice 1-2 week vacation
4. Able to save at least 20% (there shouldn't be paycheck to paycheck existence, and most financial planners recommend 20%).
5. If you have kids, you should be able to save money for their education.

There, that's not excessively luxurious. In Manhattan and Brooklyn:

1. apartments in nice areas now run about $2000 - $3000 per square foot. You can calculate how much your house would cost if transplanted here. If you want to buy, you'll need 20% down, some lenders prefer 30%, some coops require 50%. Then there are closing costs: 1% mansion tax (hah! That's for any property over $1M which could mean a 600sqft 1bd/ba), 2% mortgage tax if you're financing (most buyers don't), up to 3% transfer tax if new construction, and a few others that usually add up to an additional 3-5% of the purchase price. But you're not off the hook yet, because coops, condos, and lenders want you to show an additional 1-2 years of reserve savings after the purchase. So that 1000 sq.ft new construction apartment in Chelsea you want to buy will require that you bring $600k (you're putting 25% down because you've waived mortgage contingency to compete with all-cash offers) and show an additional $120k-240k in cash or securities in reserve (your costs are likely $10k+ for mortgage, condo fees, and taxes per month). That's $720k in savings for a 1000 sq ft apartment; you don't save that in your 30's/40's on the normal US upper middle-class income.
2. A car is a total luxury. In Manhattan a parking space can cost an additional $200k if you're lucky enough to be in a building with parking, or $500/month for a space in a garage. Basically, you resort to the bus, subway, cabs, car service, uber, Zipcar, or rental if you need to get away.
3. The rest are equivalent, noting that private schools here cost $25-50k per child.

So that should explain the posts for $500k for a nice/good lifestyle. It's not excessive. In fact, many in their 3000-4000 sq.ft house (mansions in comparison to most NYC apartments) and their multiple luxury vehicles (without subway rats) and great public school systems might turn their nose up to it if it weren't in NYC.

 

[Tekate]

In my area 160,000K per years is the average income for a family of 4, but I think it is somewhat misleading, my town is in NE, (Maine) it's a resort town and those who live near the beach are multimillionaires (and I don't and am on the wrong side of I95 as they say here) and I don't have 165K per year either as we have retired.

I think a family of 4 could live comfortably in my town making 100K per year.

 

[missy]

I think people are getting hung up on the numbers when their eyes pop out as they read people posting $500k for an upper middle-class lifestyle in NYC. But let's define an upper middle-class lifestyle first. To me, it means:

1. Owning a nice home in a nice area
2. Car(s)
3. Able to afford a nice 1-2 week vacation
4. Able to save at least 20% (there shouldn't be paycheck to paycheck existence, and most financial planners recommend 20%).
5. If you have kids, you should be able to save money for their education.

There, that's not excessively luxurious. In Manhattan and Brooklyn:

1. apartments in nice areas now run about $2000 - $3000 per square foot. You can calculate how much your house would cost if transplanted here. If you want to buy, you'll need 20% down, some lenders prefer 30%, some coops require 50%. Then there are closing costs: 1% mansion tax (hah! That's for any property over $1M which could mean a 600sqft 1bd/ba), 2% mortgage tax if you're financing (most buyers don't), up to 3% transfer tax if new construction, and a few others that usually add up to an additional 3-5% of the purchase price. But you're not off the hook yet, because coops, condos, and lenders want you to show an additional 1-2 years of reserve savings after the purchase. So that 1000 sq.ft new construction apartment in Chelsea you want to buy will require that you bring $600k (you're putting 25% down because you've waived mortgage contingency to compete with all-cash offers) and show an additional $120k-240k in cash or securities in reserve (your costs are likely $10k+ for mortgage, condo fees, and taxes per month). That's $720k in savings for a 1000 sq ft apartment; you don't save that in your 30's/40's on the normal US upper middle-class income.
2. A car is a total luxury. In Manhattan a parking space can cost an additional $200k if you're lucky enough to be in a building with parking, or $500/month for a space in a garage. Basically, you resort to the bus, subway, cabs, car service, uber, Zipcar, or rental if you need to get away.
3. The rest are equivalent, noting that private schools here cost $25-50k per child.

So that should explain the posts for $500k for a nice/good lifestyle. It's not excessive. In fact, many in their 3000-4000 sq.ft house (mansions in comparison to most NYC apartments) and their multiple luxury vehicles (without subway rats) and great public school systems might turn their nose up to it if it weren't in NYC.

Yes I would like your post times 1000 if I could t-c. So true. It costs a small fortune to live here in conditions people in other parts of the country would be like Eh, Why? Ha I remember when my dh's family visited us in Brooklyn in the early 2000s. Lol. They were so not impressed and I think we live royally for NYC conditions. Love our neighborhood and Co-op and they were duly unimpressed with it all because they come from Chicago suburbs where they have a grand house and land and free parking (as you wrote it's a fortune parking where we do in our building garage. Ridiculous). I mean you just don't get it unless you have lived here recently. It is not like much of the country re expenses. Just cannot compare.

Yet I am not ready to leave. For us, at least for now, it's worth it. And as with everything YMMV. That's what makes the world go round. Variety. Not one size fits all. And you can't compare cost of living as apples to apples from one region of the country to another. I mean you can but it's not an accurate comparison.

From reading some of the responses in this thread I felt some were offended and just FYI I did not intend nor want to offend anyone. Just stating my reality as I see it. And I'm a reasonably down to earth person. You don't know me but I am. So please don't take anything I wrote as meaning to offend anyone. Last thing I want to do here.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Incomes in high cost of living areas naturally are higher because it takes more to live there. Aside from a few states and major cities, the rest of the US is more moderately priced. In most of the southeast, we have lower cost of living and incomes are lower. But I think we get a lot more for the money we make down here. For example, the median home price in our town (which is near a lake so there are many expensive homes) is $369k. In the county we live in, it's only $139k! Our neighborhood average is $400k, and that will get you a new to relatively new 4-5 bedrooms, 3.5 bath house with 3300-4000 sq ft. on a 3/4 acre lot. I'd say upper middle class here starts at around $125k income a year.

 

[mrs-b]

DancingFire, What does "good" mean? Middle class? Upper Middle Class? What is your definition of good?

In our area a decent middle class income is (purely a guess) $250k
Upper middle class over $450K

But just a guess. I haven't googled any numbers so I could be totally wrong.

Your definition of what you mean by good could help us share more accurate numbers.

Hi Missy -

I was going off *this* post. But my response was to various issues - not just your post, so please don't personalize my response too much; it ranged fairly 'far and wide'.

And I used to live in NY also - but in Westchester. My husband worked on the Street, tho, for many years, so we're pretty in touch with those numbers.

 

[mrs-b]

Just to add and clarify - I'm not defining a 'good salary' as 'upper middle class'. I'm defining 'good' as 'top 25% for your geographic area' - because terms like 'good' are completely relative and subjective, so I'm trying to quantify with a hard statistic.

 

[ringbling17]

Incomes in high cost of living areas naturally are higher because it takes more to live there. Aside from a few states and major cities, the rest of the US is more moderately priced. In most of the southeast, we have lower cost of living and incomes are lower. But I think we get a lot more for the money we make down here. For example, the median home price in our town (which is near a lake so there are many expensive homes) is $369k. In the county we live in, it's only $139k! Our neighborhood average is $400k, and that will get you a new to relatively new 4-5 bedrooms, 3.5 bath house with 3300-4000 sq ft. on a 3/4 acre lot. I'd say upper middle class here starts at around $125k income a year.

Yes, I have to agree with this. Also, it depends on when a person purchased their home. For example, in my neighborhood development, homes were selling around $300k back in 2002 when they were first being built. Now, they are selling for $500 to $600k., then add property tax of about $15k or more.
Those people who purchase back in 2002 are living way more comfortably than those of us who purchased more recently.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh and our property tax on our home is about $2500 a year.

 

[Gussie]

Wow, reading these posts makes me stand the heat in texas a little more. We have a relatively new 5000 Sq ft home on 3 acres on a lake with a swimming pool for about 700k. It is in the suburbs but my husband's commute is only about 30 minutes. The schools are great but the kids are in private school just because we prefer it. The property tax is very high (3.5%) but there is no state income tax so it's a wash. My husband works for a hft firm and every time he speaks of finding a new job I am terrified of moving to NY or Chicago (where most of the jobs are) just because of the cost of living. Plus I am not sure my cowboy boots would work well up there!

 

[ringbling17]

I'm seriously thinking about moving to Delaware. The property taxes there are .75% and there's no sales tax!! I already work there anyway and my husband is retired so we would save money.

 

[baby monster]

I'd say 200K+ to be comfortable in my area. Not paycheck to paycheck and savings for rainy day. Small 3bd house for family of 4 is $600-800K. So between the housing expenses of mortgage, insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc; childcare if both parents are working; plus cars, food, clothing, presents, entertainment, etc; things add up.

In my area, nurses and teachers make close or over to $100K. Cops can easily make over 100K with OT. Union trade jobs like electrician or plumber are way over 100K. So it's not just finance jobs that pay a comfortable wage.

 

[mochiko42]

Hong Kong is nuts. Hubby and I joke about moving to London or New York because it's so much cheaper there!

Median household income (annual): US$36,000
Min wage: US$4.50/hr
Average apartment (500 sq ft) price: $800,000 or so if you're in the suburbs 1 hr from city center

I would say your typical office worker with a good local or overseas university degree (excluding professions like legal, investment banking etc) makes around US$45 to 50k a year. This is considered a decent salary in Hong Kong, but you still cannot afford to buy your own apartment at this salary range unless you're lucky enough to get into public housing.

To buy a small apartment say 400 sq feet with sale price of US$500k you need to save up US$150,000 as the down payment is 30%. Even if you make US$50k a year (which is firmly middle class here), it will take you a long time to save up US$150k for the down payment. And you're still only getting a 500 sq ft apartment.

Sample apartment(not house, only the 1% can afford an actual house) price: US$500,000 for a 200 square foot apartment. This is smaller than a parking space or prison cell.

Then you get news like this:

A $664,000 Parking Spot Symbolizes Hong Kong’s Property Frenzy
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/15/world/asia/hong-kong-parking-spot-record-real-estate.html

"Home prices in Hong Kong, where a nano-apartment of less than 200 square feet can cost as much as $500,000"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...n-hong-kong-show-limits-of-home-supply-policy
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-property-analysis-idUSKBN18O0TO

 

[sstephensid]

There is a really wide range of what would be considered "comfortable" where I live. Bloomington is home to Indiana University, Cook Pharmica, Baxter, Biomedix, TASUS, etc. Crane Naval Base is closeby and we are a bedroom community to many who work there. So we have a smaller middle class, with working poor on one end of the spectrum and wealthy, upper middle class on the other. Rent and housing prices here are INSANE. If I had the means to buy right now, I would, regardless of the market, because I am paying (renting) the equivalent of a mortgage payment on a $175k house that by most standards is teeny tiny. There are 8k beds downtown, going for $900/bedroom in rent on average. Everything, over the years, has been turned into student housing. It is fascinating to watch students from the East coast around town. They typically drive very expensive luxury cars, and there is actually an auction that takes place every summer when they abandon said cars outright at the airport. Yes, they literally drive them here from out of state, and leave them here (abandoned) when they go home for the summer or graduate.

I would say one person could live here comfortably, without children, on a salary of 60-75k. A family of 3-4? $175-200k minimum. The schools are very good, everyone wants to raise children here, and real estate is just hard to come by for a good price unless you're willing to renovate or buy land and live far out on the outskirts of town, or in a bordering county.

We are neighbors. I live in Columbus Bloomington is a fun town!!

 

[LLJsmom]

I must admit that people in SF are "paying" a premium for the weather!! SF was in the 70s while an hour east in Concord was around 100. Personally I can understand paying for generally year round comfy weather. So spoiled.

 

[Arkteia]

The median home value in our area is $ 800 K.

Here is more "good news".

http://www.king5.com/news/local/72000-considered-low-income-in-king-and-snohomish-counties/434107397

 

[Arkteia]

All of it is because of housing cost. Seattle is a huge housing bubble, again, I don't know when it is going to burst. I think we would be living comfortably but my younger kid is not doing well, and it changes everything.

 

[GliderPoss]

Interesting thread! Clearly is varies hugely depending on location. For example in my hometown - rural NSW Australia. A "nice" 4 bedroom home with garden would be anything from $AU400K to $AU600K yet local average income I would estimate to be around only $AU100k annually. Cost of living (fuel,food,education etc) is quite expensive here which makes it difficult for people to get onto the properly ladder. In order to be "comfortable" I would want a combined income of at least $AU150K.
In capital cities such as Sydney or Melbourne the average income is probably twice that BUT property prices are astronomical...

 

[missy]

I must admit that people in SF are "paying" a premium for the weather!! SF was in the 70s while an hour east in Concord was around 100. Personally I can understand paying for generally year round comfy weather. So spoiled.

Yes I would gladly pay this premium if we could live in SF!!!!!

I'm seriously thinking about moving to Delaware. The property taxes there are .75% and there's no sales tax!! I already work there anyway and my husband is retired so we would save money.

The average property tax rate in NJ is 2.19% . Which adds up. Delaware is looking pretty good Kayla!!!

 

[madelise]

I found this. Hopefully this settles the answer. The income to live comfortable by covering necessities. It mentions rent, so it doesn't cover saving or investing in a house- you'd need more. AND it doesn't mention having a family. So this is the basic income to live above water, as a single individual.

https://www.gobankingrates.com/personal-finance/money-live-comfortably-biggest-cities-2017/

SF - 110k


DF - they say you only need 56k for Sac Area. So you must be filthy rich!

 

[Dancing Fire]

SF - 110k

DF - they say you only need 56k for Sac Area. So you must be filthy rich!

I live in the ghetto side of town...