What *should* consumers ensure is on jewelry appraisal for insurance?

[the_mother_thing]

Don’t want to derail another thread with this, but thought it would be helpful for consumers to know what they should ensure is reflected on/included with their jewelry appraisal when obtaining such for insurance purposes, and obtaining jewelry insurance.

For example, if one’s insurance policy is to “replace like with like” in the event of a loss, I would think it behooves consumers to provide (in addition to the lab report and appraisal) the ASET, IS, Hearts & Arrows images, Sarin Report, HCA score (e.g., screen shot) to the insurance company?

What about the jewelry itself ... for example, if my appraisal states my ring was specifically made by Sholdt, does that obligate the insurance company to have the setting remade by Sholdt, or can/do they still use someone else to recreate it?

Would this ensure the insurance company has a basis for what the ‘minimum’ starting point for any replacement should be? Would/do they reasonably honor that, if provided?

What have you provided your jewelry insurance company with when taking out a policy?

I’m actually calling my insurance company to ask these questions in the next day or so, and will be happy to report back with what they say, but thought it’d be a helpful discussion for the community at large.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

I'm glad you've opened this discussion. My husband and I are in the process of finding insurance for a new CBI ring that's being made and this is the first time I'm thinking about a policy of this kind. I'm leaning towards Jeweler's Mutual, but am still asking questions of both them and of our homeowner's insurance company (Traveller's). I've waited so long for my forever ring that I'd just die if something happened to it and our insurance company tried to replace it with anything less than a CBI. Traveller's gave us a very difficult time when we had a house flood, though we eventually got what we wanted (two years later and threatened legal action -- it cost many grey hairs!). I can totally see Traveller's giving me the type of run around that the poster was having on the other thread. And to be fair, our neighbors who also were flooded (but at a different time) had a variety of other homeowner's policies and they had even longer waits, and more run-around then we did (and the two that were the worst in our area were Farmer's and USAA.)

Also, if anyone has their jewelry insured with a company other than their homeowner's I'd love to hear what company you are using and how your experience has been.

 

[Karl_K]

I am a firm believer in burying the claims adjuster policy in paperwork that was used to bind the policy.
That means that anything and everything about them is documented.
Brands, eye clean with definition(this is missed on even some good appraisals), materials, maker, basically anything that you used in consideration of the purchase needs to be on the appraisal.
The contract standard is like kind. If you have a branded cut that means the like kind is another one of that branded cut. But what if that brand is no longer around?
Then you need to have documented what made that brand special and that included scope images and any other information you have.

 

[Karl_K]

Every time I write that I think of our friend RockDoc who sadly is no longer with us. RIP my friend.
His average appraisal was from 14-18 pages long.

 

[denverappraiser]

The agreement in most insurance policies is that they will ‘replace with like kind and quality’, or words to that effect. They are agreeing to make you whole in the case of a loss. Normally that means supplying you with a new item and one of the primary purposes of the appraisal is to provide what amounts to the purchase order for that. In that vein, it should contain whatever you count as important in the purchase.

Manufacturer.
Metals
Details on other stones that may be in the piece
Manufacturing techniques used
Dimensions, counts, weights, sizes, etc.
Any paperwork, like lab documents and things that defend the branding.
Support for claims like hearts and arrows.
Serial numbers and model numbers if there are any
Condition (loose stones, manufacturing defects, etc.)
Photographs that are sufficient to identify and possibly reproduce the piece.

There's often an issue on unknown brands, and by that, I mean unknown to them. They generally agree that Tiffany and Rolex are 'branded' items and will replace with a branded item but lesser-known companies sometimes lead to a fight. The easiest way to win this fight is to document everything in your appraisal. Photographs of their hallmark are always good. Include the receipt. You are defending the point that a knockoff is not 'like kind'. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes it's hard. That depends on your insurer and the adjuster, but if it's not in the appraisal, you have no case. Sholdt is a good example of this. They're a good company and they do good work, but the adjuster probably hasn't heard of them. Try to include not only their name but their contact info and it'll make the claims process easier.

 

[Karl_K]

I think this needs to be brought back up because many dont know about it:
https://www.pricescope.com/articles/appraise_appraiser_help_consumers

 

[Tonks]

I think this needs to be brought back up because many dont know about it:
https://www.pricescope.com/articles/appraise_appraiser_help_consumers

Thank you. That is a LOT of info I’d never seen.

 

[Tonks]

So, I have a related question... @the_mother_thing , please tell me if you want me to start a separate thread instead of discussing it here and I will be happy to do so.

My question is about when you should insure at all, given the cost of premiums for several really nice pieces. Once you pay those premiums, that money is gone. Assuming you never need the policy, that’s hard to swallow.

As an alternative, has anyone self insured? I’ve been playing around with a compound interest calculator and now I’m wondering. You could take a small sum, and add to it the amount you would pay in premiums each year. Invest it, even conservatively, and over time, it will do miraculous things. For bigger pieces it would take a bit longer to build up an account to cover replacement value, but you could do it.

Insurance is and always has been gambling, so I guess I’m just wondering how to stack the deck so that you can be covered yet also mitigate some risk.

The best analogy I’ve got for what I’m proposing is term vs whole life insurance.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts. Seriously contemplating opening an account just for this purpose. The only way it would work is if you were super diligent.

 

[Miss Marple]

We “self-insure” for a lot of things by having high deductibles, and for things like jewelry, deciding how sick I would feel if o had to replace or live without the piece vs the likelihood of loss or destruction.

My e-ring and diamond studs are insured. Nothing else (jewelry) at the moment.

 

[Rockdiamond]

My personal/professional experience is that Jewelers Mutual makes all this very simple for consumers. Especially repairs. People mess up expensive jewelry all the time.
Take the super high end, cut down Pavé rings sold by some oft mentioned manufacturers here on PS. The style leaves very little metal on the diamonds- which is why people love it.
The amount of metal on the diamonds is important because it once a ring like that gets damaged, a repair can be futile. The reason is that the ring must be polished after the repair- and in many cases, the entire ring. That means damage on the shank will require the halo to be polished.
Polishing metal removes material.
Bottom line is that some of the most expensive Pavé rings really can't be repaired. JM understands this. They also make it simple regarding appraisals. Not deterring anyone from getting an appraisal- but say you don't have one, and don't want to get one. JM will honor the request to have the insured determine who makes the new ring. At that point, it's up to the insured, and the manufacturer to duplicate the details of the ring. Generally speaking, a detailed bill of sale and photos of the item will suffice for insurance purposes.
We've dealt with many other companies which also allowed replacement of expensive damaged rings on this basis- so surely others are also good.
I usually advise our clients based on the sort of insurance they currently carry. The type of homeowners policy, for example.
If they have an agent who they know, these specific points can be discussed.
If not, I think feel ok recommending JM based on experience ( we don't get paid by them for referrals, etc)

 

[Karl_K]

My opinion on the insure or not question is this:
If I can afford in a short time without taking money away from important things to repair or replace it then no insurance.
So basically I base it on how bad it would hurt to repair or replace it myself.
That number is different for everyone.

 

[oldminer]

The more thorough and complete the details are on your appraisal and the more original paperwork you can have on hand in case of a loss, even if it is duplicated on the appraisal, are the primary issues forcing the hands of insurance companies to provide you a truly like-kind replacement. Known name brands and clearly spelled out lesser name makers and sources of importance to the insured pretty much dictate how the insurance company must act. Obviously, insurance companies are large and have a lot of power and many attorneys. You have to be ready to patiently stand up for yourselves and navigate their bureaucracy without going down the trap of litigation. Sometimes you must compromise to get it over and done with, but if you have had a problem then finding a replacement insurance company going forward may be better than keeping the insurance company that gave you a bad headache. Badly constructed appraisal description or poor original paperwork records both contribute to the problems associated with replacements.

If you are very disciplined and have a bit of a risk taking attitude, you can be self insured. If you would put your premiums away every year in a safe investment and had the good fortune to have never suffered a loss you would have quite a large sum 20 or 30 years out. This is what insurance companies do and even with paying out for losses, they are not losing money on jewelry coverage. The safer you make your collection from loss, the more likely you will never have much to replace. This is not for most people, but it definitely can be done.

Taking a large insurance deductible is a way of sharing the risk with an insurance company. You'll save some money and at the same time you will owe some if a replacement is required. Making your items safe from loss is going to increase the likelihood of never needing to spend your deductible.

 

[Dancing Fire]

As an alternative, has anyone self insured? I’ve been playing around with a compound interest calculator and now I’m wondering.

For the past 30 yrs. . I can't afford the high premium, plus every few yrs you'll need to update the appraisal which equal more . I can buy a very nice 1ct stone every 5 yrs with the money I saved from paying the insurance co.

 

[the_mother_thing]

@Tonks Please pose any insurance related questions in this thread you wish! I just didn’t want to bog down the other thread with this additional conversation so that we can stay focused in the other one helping that person with her replacement.

ETA: I didn’t get to call USAA today myself; had a headache brew this afternoon and just needed to lay down a bit and take it easy.

 

[Bron357]

So, I have a related question... @the_mother_thing , please tell me if you want me to start a separate thread instead of discussing it here and I will be happy to do so.

My question is about when you should insure at all, given the cost of premiums for several really nice pieces. Once you pay those premiums, that money is gone. Assuming you never need the policy, that’s hard to swallow.

As an alternative, has anyone self insured? I’ve been playing around with a compound interest calculator and now I’m wondering. You could take a small sum, and add to it the amount you would pay in premiums each year. Invest it, even conservatively, and over time, it will do miraculous things. For bigger pieces it would take a bit longer to build up an account to cover replacement value, but you could do it.

Insurance is and always has been gambling, so I guess I’m just wondering how to stack the deck so that you can be covered yet also mitigate some risk.

The best analogy I’ve got for what I’m proposing is term vs whole life insurance.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts. Seriously contemplating opening an account just for this purpose. The only way it would work is if you were super diligent.

None of my jewellery is insured. Never has been. That’s 40 plus years of premiums I haven’t paid! That would be a substantial sum of money. Instead of insurance premiums, I’ve bought more jewellery.
My choice, my risk.
Losses in 40 odd years? Two earrings, just one of each pair. Both caused by me at some stage (with long hair) catching the earring with my hair and accidentally pulling the back off. Now have better earring backs and shorter hair.
I’ve also had two other earring losses, each with a great story, that I found after losing.
Damage in 40 years? None.
Break ins - none.
We have excellent home security and a hidden safe. I have a “bait box” and $200 cash sitting on my dresser, the theory being a robber will be pleased to take just those and leave! And because I’m “warped” ha ha, the diamonds are CZ and the hallmarked “gold” is actually 925 silver, gold plated!
I also check my jewellery (loose gems) every time I put it on. I don’t wear jewellery don’t house work / gardening.

 

[Athena10X]

My personal/professional experience is that Jewelers Mutual makes all this very simple for consumers. Especially repairs. People mess up expensive jewelry all the time.
Take the super high end, cut down Pavé rings sold by some oft mentioned manufacturers here on PS. The style leaves very little metal on the diamonds- which is why people love it.
The amount of metal on the diamonds is important because it once a ring like that gets damaged, a repair can be futile. The reason is that the ring must be polished after the repair- and in many cases, the entire ring. That means damage on the shank will require the halo to be polished.
Polishing metal removes material.
Bottom line is that some of the most expensive Pavé rings really can't be repaired. JM understands this. They also make it simple regarding appraisals. Not deterring anyone from getting an appraisal- but say you don't have one, and don't want to get one. JM will honor the request to have the insured determine who makes the new ring. At that point, it's up to the insured, and the manufacturer to duplicate the details of the ring. Generally speaking, a detailed bill of sale and photos of the item will suffice for insurance purposes.
We've dealt with many other companies which also allowed replacement of expensive damaged rings on this basis- so surely others are also good.
I usually advise our clients based on the sort of insurance they currently carry. The type of homeowners policy, for example.
If they have an agent who they know, these specific points can be discussed.
If not, I think feel ok recommending JM based on experience ( we don't get paid by them for referrals, etc)

I ditto everything stated above from personal experience with JM. I have several threads detailing my journey of replacing my e-ring, which I lost during a move. Long story short, I had a fluorescent CBI in a custom Star Wars themed setting. To our surprise, JM didn’t have an appraisal on file though my fiancé and I swear that our jeweler wrote one and that my fiancé had submitted a copy to JM. Needless to say, after the move we couldn’t locate the hard copy of the appraisal, nor could we reach the jeweler. So, we submitted all invoices, grading report, CAD renderings, photos, email transactions, police report, affidavit from moving company, etc in place of the appraisal.

The only catch in our policy was that we could only source a comparable/like diamond, meaning similar specs (4Cs). Although CBI had another fluorescent diamond in stock, it was slightly larger and JM wouldn’t entirely cover it even though it was less than our coverage limit. Since we hadn’t planned on spending even more out of pocket, we had to source from another vendor. JM let us select the diamond vendor especially since we were trying to replace a super-ideal (we also provided ASET, Ideal Scope, and H&A images). Also, we could have used an entirely different vendor for the setting, but we decided to have everything handled by one jeweler.

Maybe my experience is unique because JM would not have been able to reproduce my ring, but the entire time, my adjuster was understanding and willing to make me whole again. In summary, JM was very accommodating, but we still had to work within the restrictions of our policy.

Once my new ring is made, we’ll be insuring with JM again and this time we’ll know what to include in the appraisal and will make sure they’ve received it.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I spent an hour and 15 minutes tonight on the phone with USAA talking with a valuable personal property insurance representative. I asked them a lot of questions and details around replacement processes, specific appraisal details, what would be considered in deterring a “like replacement”, and how to ensure that the information I provide is as complete as possible so that in the event of a loss, I stand the best chance of truly being made whole. I took a lot of notes and as soon as I have time to sit down and put them all in a post I will update this thread with that information. Probably in the morning.

I will say that the rep I spoke with was VERY patient, thorough, researched answers to my questions, etc., and made sure ALL of my questions were answered & understood.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I am so glad that @oldminer & @denverappraiser chimed in here as they’re both highly respected appraisers with extensive knowledge on this topic. And while I hope others have/will do the same, after my discussion w/USAA last night, it’s my intent to do exactly as they describe above with regard to ensuring that the jewelry appraisal & supporting documentation provided to the ins co contains EVERY SINGLE MINUTE DETAIL POSSIBLE to do with my items.

I posted last night that I spent a lot of time on the phone with USAA, and I’d encourage anyone who has not had an in-depth discussion with their insurer to do the same. It wasn’t that my agent revealed some secret spongecake solution to “get top dollar in the event of a loss”; rather, I found it a very insightful & informative discussion, during which everything David & Neil stated above was confirmed (not that I doubted them in the least). And THAT is how/where I can ensure that - in the event of a loss - if my policy is a “like kind replacement”, that I will actually get a like-kind or be ‘cashed out’ at the true value of my items per my appraisal and not under-cut with something along the lines of what the OP in the other thread is dealing with.

I also took the discussion to great lengths & depths, and had them read through the underwriting criteria with me for insuring an item. I don’t believe this information is specifically detailed anywhere that a customer can readily see/read/find; rather, it was more along the lines of details in their policy manual. I explained to him my primary concerns around insurance & “like for like replacement” approaches, specifically around my WF ES MRB & my Tycoon diamond, the latter of which would be an extremely difficult diamond to find/replace.

• If you have a simple/basic appraisal (e.g. the simple $50 ‘one page high level overview’ from a local jewelry store), and it’s silent to any sort brand, cut quality, designer, etc., and that valuation is inflated to (for example) double what you paid, you should have no realistic of ever seeing that sort of high-value replacement quality or cash out offer in the event of a loss. Get a new, detailed, independent appraisal. Without specific details essentially justifying why that valuation is accurate, the insurer is basically left to assume you had ‘run of the mill’ brand/quality, and that’s all they are really obligated to replace. So if the diamond setting is a SimonG, Verragio, VC, etc., or if it’s custom in any way from somewhere, that fact needs to be detailed in the appraisal.
• If you have a diamond/s that is anything more than a ‘standard GIA’ (whether it’s XXX, VG, whatever) - so CBI, BGD, VC, GOG, WF, and other branded and/or ‘premium cut’ diamonds - and you have the light performance images (ASET, IS, Hearts & Arrows, etc.), Sarin reports, HCA score, etc., it is highly encouraged that you have your appraiser include all of those images/details as part of your appraisal report, as well as obviously the lab report. In my case, while my MRB diamond is an ES vs. an ACA, I have all of that same information, images, etc. confirming my diamond’s performance. And my agent confirmed those would be used to help form the basis for a “like kind replacement” if included with my appraisal, and they would likely go to WF or another ‘super ideal’ dealer for that replacement vs. hitting up their ‘virtual inventory’ since they’d need those images to substantiate the legitimacy of their proposed replacement being ‘like kind’ and they don’t have those images with what they routinely search through. Also, be sure to have your appraiser note the eye clean parameters for your diamond/s on the appraisal if that is important to you in terms of any potential replacement.
• I asked my agent: can I just provide the light performance/cut spec images with the appraisal or do they need to be on/part of the appraisal document, and he said it’s best if it’s part of the appraisal document itself (even if just a referenced attachment) so that it’s all part of/coming from the person completing the valuation. I suppose they consider that to have more ‘legitimacy’ than if I were to just provide the light performance images myself because I suppose (he didn’t say this) that could be questioned along the same lines as me just saying the item had a feature vs. it being verified by someone (e.g., appraiser).
• If it’s some other ‘unique’ cut, such as the case with my Tycoon where I cannot find another diamond like it (e.g., the squared clipped corners style vs. the elongated) anywhere, so long as all of the cut/branding details are on the appraisal, if they cannot find a like-kind replacement, any cash-out offer would be in-line with the appraisal valuation. Again, details, details, details need to be on the appraisal.
• I asked him about insuring a loose diamond - something many non-Jewelry insurance companies don’t generally do - and there are specific criteria for them doing so (that’s where we got into the underwriting details), and I can have USAA insure my Tycoon prior to/during setting. I read others post that they are unable to get loose-stone insurance from their insurer (diamonds, colored stones, etc.). USAA insured my alexandrite prior to setting when I bought it as well. If you just call up and ask the basic “do you cover loose stones” question, the blanket answer is usually ‘no’, but there are criteria for them to do so; you just need to probe further and ask “why” because there was a laundry list of questions/criteria I and my diamond had to meet for it to be covered.

Those were the big items that came out of my discussion. I’d encourage others who have even a shred of question/concern about their own policies to get on the phone with their insurer and have these discussions & update your docs accordingly.

In summary, to echo what Neil & David suggested upthread: any minute material detail/factor/criteria/image/etc. that you considered when ultimately choosing the item/s you have should be documented on the appraisal so it may be used as a basis for valuation and either replacement or cash-out purposes. Again, while my agent didn’t exactly say it, it was somewhat ‘inferred’ that if the laundry list of criteria substantiating my item’s characteristics & value is so strict that the insurer cannot find it ‘on their shelf’, they’ll be left with two options: work with the vendor you got the item/s from or cash you out in line with the appraised value. If I lost my WF ES, I’d be fine with USAA calling WF to arrange a replacement because I trust WF to know what really IS a “like” replacement; or even if they had to go to BGD or HPD, but I was clear with him last night that unless the diamond dealers they work with have the same cut evaluation/light performance tools to substantiate a proposed replacement diamond is “like” mine, I was pretty confident they wouldn’t find one in virtual inventory.

Hope that is helpful to folks.

 

[denverappraiser]

@the_mother_thing. Nice research.

I’ll fill in a bit if I might. One of the reasons that insurance companies like appraisals is that it provides independent witness to some details, not the least of which is that the item actually exists and that you actually have it. You making a claim of H&A or whatever is not the same as some appraiser doing it. Put bluntly, a signed statement from an independent pro who personally inspected it DOES add legitimacy. It’s also perhaps worth noting that they are deliberately putting you in the loop as well. They could hire gemologists and jewelry experts if they wanted (and in the back office they do), but by requiring YOU to provide an appraisal, it puts you on the hook. If you provide an appraisal that says it’s ‘worth’ triple what it will cost them to replace and double what you paid, they have done you no wrong. That’s your bad. All they did was accept what you told them. You chose the appraiser, not them. If you provide an appraisal that gives inadequate details, that’s your fault, not theirs. If the appraiser worked for them or was even hired by them, none of this would be the case.