What It's like to live in a well-governed country

[Matata]

I thought this was an interesting read.

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180107-what-its-like-to-live-in-a-well-governed-country

 

[missy]

Thanks for this link @Matata. I was just having a similar convo with my dh.
Time to move perhaps.

 

[anne_h]

Yay Canada!

BTW, on a related subject... I recently read "The Nordic Theory of Everything". It's written by a Finnish journalist who married an American and moved to the US. She has an interesting perspective of both Finnish/Nordic and American culture & policies. I learned a lot, and highly recommend it.

Anne

 

[arkieb1]

I think every country has pluses and minuses, your article lists Denmark as one of the best places but most Americans would freak out at the amount of tax these guys pay. And they list New Zealand then Australia, New Zealand has a great welfare distribution system that works because it has to, because what they leave out is New Zealand has incredibly high unemployment rates, it's a small country with very limited growth in the employment sectors, I'd also argue it has a small population and being tiny geographically also makes it on paper and in reality a much easier country to govern than the US.

For an apples to apples comparison governing New Zealand would be like governing one small well run state in the US, not the whole of the US.

 

[redwood66]

I agree @arkieb1 and the author does not mention population of any of the named countries.

Canada - 36+ million with a land mass larger than the US
Botswana - 7+ million
Chile - 18+ million
Denmark - 5+ million with a tax rate of 55-60% for nearly all its citizens
New Zealand - 4+ million

Japan is the closest to US at 127+ million

 

[lyra]

I'd like to see free meds and free post secondary education. I know there are other countries that can do it. I wish we could do it here. "Free" healthcare is great. Not being able to pay for your meds is frustrating, and very hard for those that fall between the cracks, or whose meds cost more than any benefits package will pay. I'm looking at you, remicade, at $40,000 per year roughly! (I get it free through the drug company for now.)

 

[Matata]

I'd also argue it has a small population and being tiny geographically also makes it on paper and in reality a much easier country to govern than the US.

the author does not mention population of any of the named countries.

Population and geographic size are often used as excuses for why the US can't progress as do the countries on the top of the "happiest lists". Those excuses have nothing to do with our ability to stem corruption, engage in social progress, and apply/follow rule of law. They have nothing to do with our ability to create and implement effective policy. They are effective, however, at keeping us comfortable with our complacency.

 

[redwood66]

Population and geographic size are often used as excuses for why the US can't progress as do the countries on the top of the "happiest lists". Those excuses have nothing to do with our ability to stem corruption, engage in social progress, and apply/follow rule of law. They have nothing to do with our ability to create and implement effective policy. They are effective, however, at keeping us comfortable with our complacency.

It absolutely has everything to do with the ability when the country is as diverse as the US is in opinions as to what the role of government should be. Your happy may not be my happy and vice versa. Were there enough Americans who wanted a Scandinavian (or other) style government it would have happened already. Maybe in a few or more generations it will all be different. Who knows?

 

[Matata]

It absolutely has everything to do with the ability when the country is as diverse as the US is in opinions as to what the role of government should be.

The biggest diversity factor affecting our ability to evolve into a humane society is that we have a caste system based upon net worth.

 

[redwood66]

The biggest diversity factor affecting our ability to evolve into a humane society is that we have a caste system based upon net worth.

In your opinion, but not necessarily in mine. A caste system has no opportunity for changing your status. It is your opinion that we are not a humane society and I do not agree.

 

[arkieb1]

Population and geographic size are often used as excuses for why the US can't progress as do the countries on the top of the "happiest lists". Those excuses have nothing to do with our ability to stem corruption, engage in social progress, and apply/follow rule of law. They have nothing to do with our ability to create and implement effective policy. They are effective, however, at keeping us comfortable with our complacency.

For once I disagree with you, in theory no they shouldn't but if you have archaic sets of fundamental core beliefs and certain laws, your amendment rights and better gun control laws is great example of that, then it will take much longer to fix those things in a country that has them than one that has never been run with the same underpinning values and laws such as Denmark or New Zealand. You might have read New Zealand was one of the first places to allow women to vote - you see earlier more progressive thinking has driven these places in a way that it hasn't cohesively in the US.

I also would argue that it takes a bucketload more people and resources to run a country like the US so of course that lends itself to more corruption and inefficiency because you simply have way way more people in the chain to get anything done than say a country like New Zealand does and that in part doesn't help the "inability to create and implement effective policy" you are describing.

The Danish and indeed New Zealanders and even Australia to a degree have a thought process of valuing equality we all pay some of the highest tax rates in the world because we believe in a more level playing field so to speak than you do and intrinsically most (not all this is a generalisation) Aussies and New Zealanders will go out of their way to be friendly and help others and approach life from a more trusting more giving set of values despite being countries that are way less religious than yours.

I've always been personally appalled at things like your welfare system, your medical system and the amount of homeless and poor people that exist in your country and we share pretty well the same beliefs about Trump.

 

[Matata]

In your opinion, but not necessarily in mine. A caste system has no opportunity for changing your status. It is your opinion that we are not a humane society and I do not agree.

Your are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. Fact: We are the world leader in child poverty; fact: our health care system is ranked the worst among 11 wealthy peer nations; fact: our education system lags behind our global peers. Perhaps you've forgotten about income disparity here? Remember the 1%. Remember the disappearing middle class. US Poverty Statistics: http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
These are some of the measures of a humane society based on solid research.

 

[arkieb1]

The biggest diversity factor affecting our ability to evolve into a humane society is that we have a caste system based upon net worth.

Hmmm again I'd argue that the UK has an even greater "caste" system based upon net worth, always has always will - they are and have been far more class conscious over the last 100 years than the US and yet arguably, they have a way more "evolved level of thinking" when it comes to being what you are describing overall as "evolving into a humane society than the US".

I think what you are trying to describe is a smaller middle class and a greater amount of wealthy and poor at either end and a system that is failing or is broken to even that out, and an unwillingness from the wealthy, big businesses and the middle class to want to even it out.

 

[MissyBeaucoup]

What breaks my heart is the number of people who go bankrupt and lose their homes because they or a loved one gets sick. It is hard to plan for old age when the medical costs keep going up. It is just wrong that there is so much profiteering off other people’s suffering. I wish that we could treat healthcare like our school systems, fire departments, and police protection—-and just cover everybody, period.

 

[arkieb1]

One of my degrees is in Australian Cultural History. Many years ago I did an undergrad course that directly compared the way America was founded and settled and the way Australia was founded and settled and how through different points in history each has impacted culturally upon who as a country and a people we have developed into.

The curious thing is, if we compare the two countries you would think your country the one based upon religious ideals and freedom with a much higher rate of religious beliefs and practices even today would be the more compassionate, the more socially tolerate and the less disproportionate at distributing wealth, and other social resources.

And yet here we are - the place that started as a dumping ground for convicts is by far better at achieving equality, redistributing those resources and has a much more cohesive more compassionate and less distrustful way of life.

What I am arguing here as any good cultural historian would, is that the way we were founded, the history of things like our laws, our education systems, our penal systems, and so on has had far greater impact on who we have become and who we are going to be in the future than we might think.

You seem to be arguing this disparity between rich and poor is preventing you from better governance and indeed that in part might be true, but there have been a whole series of very complex things that have occurred from the day you were founded until now that have also shaped what that governance looks like today in each one of the countries that article mentions.

 

[redwood66]

Your are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. Fact: We are the world leader in child poverty; fact: our health care system is ranked the worst among 11 wealthy peer nations; fact: our education system lags behind our global peers. Perhaps you've forgotten about income disparity here? Remember the 1%. Remember the disappearing middle class. US Poverty Statistics: http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
These are some of the measures of a humane society based on solid research.

With all due respect, changing the entire government structure would do what to these statistics? People would instantaneously be nicer like Denmark? I am thinking not. Everyone would be healthier? Why are so many children in poverty? Because the rich have too much money that you think they don't need or it is their responsibility to pay even more? How much is enough to fund a government that you envision for 325 million people? What would be the tax rate on everyone because that is what it would take, even those poorer families, probably a VAT too that everyone will have to pay? A VAT might be a good idea so everyone has skin in the game, but I don't trust the federal government to manage the money they receive now efficiently, let alone give them more with more programs to mismanage. Many of those progressive idealistic governments don't have a military to speak of so we would have to defund that as well. What would Russia and China's reaction be to that little change? Not to mention Iran and NK. Should we leave Europe or elsewhere to fend for themselves when Putin (or anyone else) comes knocking on the door? I am all for that since my kid is out there. Maybe we should have let Saddam have Kuwait, maybe South Korea and Japan won't mind if we just bring our guys and gals in the 7th fleet home. Let's move all our people off Guam as well. No need to watch what the heck China is doing in the SCS.

As an aside we should require the government to spend less on all agencies - including the military. They spend entirely too much already and requiring an agency keep the same budget as last year rather than get an annual increase is not a cut in their budget. Tighten the belt.

 

[bmfang]

One of my degrees is in Australian Cultural History. Many years ago I did an undergrad course that directly compared the way America was founded and settled and the way Australia was founded and settled and how through different points in history each has impacted culturally upon who as a country and a people we have developed into.

The curious thing is, if we compare the two countries you would think your country the one based upon religious ideals and freedom with a much higher rate of religious beliefs and practices even today would be the more compassionate, the more socially tolerate and the less disproportionate at distributing wealth, and other social resources.

And yet here we are - the place that started as a dumping ground for convicts is by far better at achieving equality, redistributing those resources and has a much more cohesive more compassionate and less distrustful way of life.

What I am arguing here as any good cultural historian would, is that the way we were founded, the history of things like our laws, our education systems, our penal systems, and so on has had far greater impact on who we have become and who we are going to be in the future than we might think.

You seem to be arguing this disparity between rich and poor is preventing you from better governance and indeed that in part might be true, but there have been a whole series of very complex things that have occurred from the day you were founded until now that have also shaped what that governance looks like today in each one of the countries that article mentions.

Well said @arkieb1

 

[Dancing Fire]

The biggest diversity factor affecting our ability to evolve into a humane society is that we have a caste system based upon net worth.

IOW, you want the U.S. to become a communist society..

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Well said @arkieb1


Ill try to take it to a personal level and try to explain what all this means to the individual.
Whenever I read some facts about the american lifestyle here on PS I learn new things and it's a firsthand source of living standards priorities in the US opposed to Europe. All the theories I learned in politcial science classes are pretty abstract, but I like to boil it down to your life and standard of life.
What does it mean to YOU, personally?
I'll try to be as concise and simplistic as possible.

People gain a fraction of american salaries.
Those salaries are taxed (in most cases about equally as high as in the US... btw) and the employee pays a part of his MANDATORY health insurance and retirement and social security (unemployment insurance).
Your employer pays his share of all this on top of the gross income of those employees.

This means everyone is FORCED to contribute to the system for his own sake and also everyone else's sake.

This means a lot less disposable income but better safety.
Cars are smaller, Houses are smaller (A LOT smaller), *bling is smaller* too, designer pieces, expensive (per night expensive) holidays much rarer.

But when I say that an engineer will make about 60 k in France and stil has to pay 20% taxes and his /her SO needs to work full time as well it also means that for him /her the following is already covered:
A legal minimum of 21 days of paid holidays. In most cases your holidays turn around 30 days. And that's working days. So you can build more than 6 weeks of vacation out of this. Because it is believed that it is important to rest and spend time with family for your health and sanity.
Health insurance for everyone.
Retirement contribution.
And an unemployment plan where you will be paid around 60% of your last income for 24 months. If you're not employed after that: welfare with a housing programme etc.
Free schooling starting at age 3 (with an excellent academic level overall) and Universities( BEST Universities are free).
Maternity leave (fully paid 6 weeks before and 8 weeks after your due date by health insurance, 1 year @ 60% , paid by the state, 2 more years unpaid if you wish to stay with your child until his 3td birthday)
General infrastructure everywhere etc etc.

Most americans seem to be apalled by the very thought of being "monitored" by the state and I read a huge outcry at the very thought of universal MANDATORY health insurance for everyone.
Here, most people wouldn't be able to sleep at night (me included) without a safety net in case of a medical condition.

So: you won't be able to cumulate wealth the american way in Europe. The safety net is by far worth it for most Europeans.
It doesn't seem to be worth it for most americans. The reasons are extremely difficult to grasp and complex (as arkie pointed out) and both systems are flawed.
But I think"well governed" implies that it's a shortcoming in the execution of legislation when things are difficult in the US. Where in reality it is a different emphasis (opportunity to accumulate individual wealth at a high risk vs. equality/overall stability).

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

IOW, you want the U.S. to become a communist society..

I think most people who actually suffered under communist oppression would differ.

 

[arkieb1]

IOW, you want the U.S. to become a communist society..

Australia, New Zealand and Denmark aren't communist societies so I call that bulls@#*.....

 

[arkieb1]

Actually what you are saying in part Kipari is true, from an economic POV the differences between Australia and the US are we were an agricultural based economy that transformed into a mining based economy the US went through Industrialisation at a more rapid and much greater degree to us. What that means in broader terms today is we have a larger (but overall poorer) middle class here. The US has more people at both ends of the spectrum far more people % wise than we do that are really wealthy and really poor, and never a complete system set up properly to cope with a large poor population, until after the great depression, and even then most of their social policies don't reflect the same English based tenets, policies and ideas that apply to welfare, education and law making that our society does.

European countries developed completely different policies in response historically to different things than the US, ranging from Wars, Industrialisation at different points in time, to some of them developing on from communism.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Your are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts. Fact: We are the world leader in child poverty; fact: our health care system is ranked the worst among 11 wealthy peer nations; fact: our education system lags behind our global peers. Perhaps you've forgotten about income disparity here? Remember the 1%. Remember the disappearing middle class. US Poverty Statistics: http://federalsafetynet.com/us-poverty-statistics.html
These are some of the measures of a humane society based on solid research.

[/QUOTE]The 1% er are paying most of the taxes, and thanks to Obama's 8 yr the middle class has disappeared.

 

[Tekate]

Red, how easy is it really to move ahead in America without a good middle class home, parents that are involved, a good educational system. America has changed, there are no more 'secretary jobs' that pay a decent wage, in Europe being a waiter is a career, with benefits, in America it's either something on the way up or down, we don't consider jobs in services the way they do in Europe. There is little to no way for a young person to move up unless they go to college, going to college costs money, kids get loans, now the Trump 'administration' is not going to forgive loans and are going to dun.. most physicians I know do not pay of their college loans till they are mid 40s. seriously. There are less jobs in the 'move up' style. The people who are rich stay that way.

In your opinion, but not necessarily in mine. A caste system has no opportunity for changing your status. It is your opinion that we are not a humane society and I do not agree.

 

[Tekate]

Maybe people might be nicer, if one's life is less worrisome they might have more time to be caring, who knows, stands to reason. I absolutely think the rich should pay more, you mention VAT, I like VAT, it's a good idea.

If people have access to heathcare does it not seem as though we as a society might be healthier? I think so.

The rich have tooo much money, tax them!

A well funded military.. you know we have more than enough nuclear weapons as does the Russians, our military spends MUCH time in places that are not defending America but defending America's commitments, I'm all for a smaller military. So far Japan has done well. Germany does just fine. Why do we need more people in the military? who's attacking us yearly, I posit that having a huge military is a last century idea.. now we have drones.. it seems the worst attack(s) in our country have been by computer, let's beef up our software.

China has shown little aggression to Japan, now S Korea maybe. But we don't need many bodies.. too many men/women killed in unnecessary war in the middle east.

Red, we have to move ahead in our country, not stick our heads in 1950.

regards.

With all due respect, changing the entire government structure would do what to these statistics? People would instantaneously be nicer like Denmark? I am thinking not. Everyone would be healthier? Why are so many children in poverty? Because the rich have too much money that you think they don't need or it is their responsibility to pay even more? How much is enough to fund a government that you envision for 325 million people? What would be the tax rate on everyone because that is what it would take, even those poorer families, probably a VAT too that everyone will have to pay? A VAT might be a good idea so everyone has skin in the game, but I don't trust the federal government to manage the money they receive now efficiently, let alone give them more with more programs to mismanage. Many of those progressive idealistic governments don't have a military to speak of so we would have to defund that as well. What would Russia and China's reaction be to that little change? Not to mention Iran and NK. Should we leave Europe or elsewhere to fend for themselves when Putin (or anyone else) comes knocking on the door? I am all for that since my kid is out there. Maybe we should have let Saddam have Kuwait, maybe South Korea and Japan won't mind if we just bring our guys and gals in the 7th fleet home. Let's move all our people off Guam as well. No need to watch what the heck China is doing in the SCS.

As an aside we should require the government to spend less on all agencies - including the military. They spend entirely too much already and requiring an agency keep the same budget as last year rather than get an annual increase is not a cut in their budget. Tighten the belt.

 

[redwood66]

Maybe people might be nicer, if one's life is less worrisome they might have more time to be caring, who knows, stands to reason. I absolutely think the rich should pay more, you mention VAT, I like VAT, it's a good idea.

If people have access to heathcare does it not seem as though we as a society might be healthier? I think so.

The rich have tooo much money, tax them!

A well funded military.. you know we have more than enough nuclear weapons as does the Russians, our military spends MUCH time in places that are not defending America but defending America's commitments, I'm all for a smaller military. So far Japan has done well. Germany does just fine. Why do we need more people in the military? who's attacking us yearly, I posit that having a huge military is a last century idea.. now we have drones.. it seems the worst attack(s) in our country have been by computer, let's beef up our software.

China has shown little aggression to Japan, now S Korea maybe. But we don't need many bodies.. too many men/women killed in unnecessary war in the middle east.

Red, we have to move ahead in our country, not stick our heads in 1950.

regards.

I totally understand and hear you T. I do. I wish people were nicer, I wish there weren't so many poor people. But enough people have not decided to change the government to something different yet. It may happen and it may not. I wish we did not have such a costly blood and treasure commitment to protection of other countries but we do. Forward operating bases are needed even for drone operations btw. Logistics and classified information make it difficult or impossible to operate from the base of another country. Japan has done well and Germany too but without an American presence with a relatively quick response time to NK or Putin/whoever things might be far different. I guess I look at it as the watch dog in the yard, his presence is known. As far as the ME, I wish we were not there at all. Let them do what they have been doing for thousands of years, and we concentrate on our people.

I don't trust politicians to make decisions that are not in their own best interest first.

@kipari thank you for your explanation and response.

 

[Matata]

You seem to be arguing this disparity between rich and poor is preventing you from better governance and indeed that in part might be true, but there have been a whole series of very complex things that have occurred from the day you were founded until now that have also shaped what that governance looks like today in each one of the countries that article mentions.

Is this directed at me arkie? I'm not "arguing" anything, merely addressing some factors I think contribute to our dilemma here. It was interesting to me, but not surprising, that the majority of the countries profiled in the article, particularly the Scandinavian ones, are the least religious.

 

[whitewave]

We don't have a caste system. Dh never even had a bed growing up. He slept on mattress pulled out from under his mother's bed.

Now we have two houses, etc. He pulled himself up from his bootstraps, worked hard and made it happen. Rags to riches.... opposite of caste.

 

[Matata]

We don't have a caste system.

We do. You have to take into account that the definition of caste is not confined exclusively to the hereditary system which exists in India. We have a racial caste system with whites at the top, blacks at the bottom, and other people of color occupying the middle. There are some who say we are not a caste system but a class system. That's just, IMO, massaging language to make something seem less heinous, such as using "falsehood" instead of "lie". We have a gender caste system whereby heterosexuals rule and others are deemed "less than". We have a physical/mental disability caste system. One-third to one-half (different studies yield different figures) of our homeless population have physical or mental disabilities and lack access to treatment/care because we pulled funding and closed mental health facilities.

I was raised in a ghetto tenement infested with fleas, rats, roaches and your friendly neighborhood pedophile and I, like your husband, was fortunate enough to break out of the poverty cycle. Upward mobility (according to a plethora of studies) is become more difficult in this country for a variety of reasons. And even when one is fortunate enough to move upward, we still have a system of financial and social caste -- nouveau riche vs old money.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1881/12/caste-in-american-society/305936/
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/30/1588149/-America-s-Caste-System-and-Mass-Incarceration

 

[Tekate]

I hear and I understand Red. After Trump and Cotton and all these other cartoon characters I no longer know who tells the truth.. trust is very hard.

Peace

I totally understand and hear you T. I do. I wish people were nicer, I wish there weren't so many poor people. But enough people have not decided to change the government to something different yet. It may happen and it may not. I wish we did not have such a costly blood and treasure commitment to protection of other countries but we do. Forward operating bases are needed even for drone operations btw. Logistics and classified information make it difficult or impossible to operate from the base of another country. Japan has done well and Germany too but without an American presence with a relatively quick response time to NK or Putin/whoever things might be far different. I guess I look at it as the watch dog in the yard, his presence is known. As far as the ME, I wish we were not there at all. Let them do what they have been doing for thousands of years, and we concentrate on our people.

I don't trust politicians to make decisions that are not in their own best interest first.

@kipari thank you for your explanation and response.