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What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitional

Wombats

Shiny_Rock
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Jul 12, 2016
Messages
123
Hello

I'm learning about OEC / Transitional diamonds and had the chance to try a few on today.

I have discovered something that I don't like about them, but don't know the correct terminology to explain it and was wondering if you could help please.

In the attached picture, you can see a small cicircular "window" in the centre of the centre stone. Where you can see straight through the stone to my skin. Is this the culet? And is it larger the more open it is?

I seem to prefer stones that have this as an almost pin point, similar to the links below found on Grace's website. Is there a better way to explain this?

Thanks so much. Appreciate your help.

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/1-ct-to-2-00/1-02ct-transitional-cut-diamond-gia-h-vs1#.V6xnX3OuZnH

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/1-43ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-k-si1#.V6xnrXOuZnH

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/1-36ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-i-vs1#.V6xnynOuZnH

img_20160811_142313.jpg
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

In the 3 links, the culet looks small. In the attached picture, that circular see-through portion is not the culet but a sign of a poorly cut stone.
 

Wombats

Shiny_Rock
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LadyMCh

Shiny_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

The culet is one of the facets on an OEC. It's on the ideal cut one bc it is a characteristic of OECs. I don't think I've ever seen an OEC without one...
 

chrono

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

I think you could be confusing 2 different things. Well cut OECs and Transitionals have a small to large culet but they are not so large as to be able to see your skin underneath. In fact, they are usually not visible at a glance except to the wearer due to the wearer's familiarity with the diamond.

What you are seeing (in that posted photograph) isn't the culet but a huge area of leakage due to the poor combination of angles. That is a cut issue that happens in both OECs and MRBs.
 

flyingpig

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

screenshot_2016-08-11-09-34-53.jpg
screenshot_2016-08-11-09-38-05.jpg

The top stone has a larger culet than stone below. Notice that larger hole in victor's, consistent with the ags/gia report for each stone.
 

the_mother_thing

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought larger culets were more common on old mine cuts, and they started shrinking down to smaller sizes in OECs & Transitionals as cutting techniques improved. Could it be that OP is actually just seeing more old miners than (true) OECs?
 

VRBeauty

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

JoCoJenn|1470937909|4064823 said:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought larger culets were more common on old mine cuts, and they started shrinking down to smaller sizes in OECs & Transitionals as cutting techniques improved. Could it be that OP is actually just seeing more old miners than (true) OECs?
That's my understanding too. Plus in many old mine cuts the facets are irregular.
 

arkieb1

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

JoCoJenn|1470937909|4064823 said:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought larger culets were more common on old mine cuts, and they started shrinking down to smaller sizes in OECs & Transitionals as cutting techniques improved. Could it be that OP is actually just seeing more old miners than (true) OECs?
That is generally the case although it's not uncommon to see some OMCs with smaller culets and OECs with larger ones. True hand cut stones have a wide range of sizes of them. Transitionals and later OECS generally do however, have smaller ones, and if you get a custom cut new old cut, you can ask to have virtually none at all if you wish.

You can also get badly cut stones that you can see through as well but that's not the culet that is just a badly cut stone.
 

Wombats

Shiny_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Thank you so much. I understand. I think am seeing more old mine cuts and not terribly well cut ones either. I live outside of the US and we don't have a great range to look at. All of the stones are simply called "old cuts" with no real differentiation between OMC, OEC or Transitional.

One more question please. The culets that you have circled in the two photos, do they have a similar effect of being able to see through the stone, like the photo I posted? Or what is the impact visually of this?

Thanks again, appreciate the help.

Cheers
 

Confection10

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Wombats|1470987050|4065075 said:
Thank you so much. I understand. I think am seeing more old mine cuts and not terribly well cut ones either. I live outside of the US and we don't have a great range to look at. All of the stones are simply called "old cuts" with no real differentiation between OMC, OEC or Transitional.

One more question please. The culets that you have circled in the two photos, do they have a similar effect of being able to see through the stone, like the photo I posted? Or what is the impact visually of this?

Thanks again, appreciate the help.

Cheers
Hi Wombats, here is my oec with large culet by AGS. IRL I barely see it. If I try hard only I see is a dot, nothing more. So to me there isn't any impact visually.

_5238.jpeg
 

Gypsy

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Clarification. All cut stones (well not rose cuts) have culets. What you do not like is an "open" culet. Where it is flat. Very small open culets do not have the same look as larger ones where it looks like a hole in the stone. It still looks that way under magnification but in life it is much subtler. A closed culet comes to a point. Which is what you see with modern cuts. No hole.
 

acaw2015

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Wombats said:
One more question please. The culets that you have circled in the two photos, do they have a similar effect of being able to see through the stone, like the photo I posted? Or what is the impact visually of this?

Thanks again, appreciate the help.

Cheers
Hi Wombats!

The visual impact depends on the size of the culet as well as the setting you are putting the stone in. I have a 1 ct cushion with a "very large" culet according to AGS, but it is super small. I can see it, but it generally looks like a normal facet, reflecting light on/off. If I look at it straight top down it disappears or may look like a small light grey dot, similar to facets that are "off"/not reflecting light, in my diamond. This is probably because I have the stone set in platinum and so when I should have seen a "hole" I see platinum, which resembles the diamond itself = grey/white. Not sure I explained very well, but I hope this may help.

To tell you the truth I was a bit disappointed that the culet disappeared when set, I didnt know this. Most people simply dont see the culet when I try to show it to them. :blackeye: They can make out the kozibe effect when I explain what to look for. I think someone already said this, but a culet isgenerally something the owner knows about and sees because he/she know it is there and also know what to look for.

BUT this said, I have also seen an OMC with a HUGE culet. I liked it, but it may not be for everyone.
 

arkieb1

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Are you an Aussie by any chance? Most of the old cuts here unless you get lucky are either badly cut and fairly wonky, they can have nail heads, or be really leaky, or what I call flatties on top and not that attractive or insanely expensive for what they are. I can recommend places to go and look if you are in Australia, if not then stick to some of the recommended old cut vendors here and if you do post anything you like for us to look at for your place it on hold to stop anyone else getting it.
 

Bixie

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Aug 12, 2016
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Arkie, I'd love to know your recommendations for old cuts providers (in particular OECs) in Oz. I'm from Sydney and would love to see a couple of OECs in person and have no clue where to go. None of the B&M places I've been to even know about OECs let alone stock any!

TIA!!
 

Wombats

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
123
Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Thank you Arkieb. Yes, I'm in Australia, Brisbane (does my username give it away?!), and it's very tricky to find a nice old cut stone to look at.

Thank you, I have been looking at both Grace's, GOG and have also contacted OWD. I'm just trying to narrow down the features I prefer before getting ahead of myself.

From this thread it's clear I have a preference for (a well cut) small culet! I'm not a huge fan of the kozibe effect.

I thought the three stones I posted in the start of the thread were all pretty. They each have small culets and two are more Transitional, less blocky, yet retain that flowery pattern.

Thanks again for the help everyone.

Cheers


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Bixie|1471060290|4065363 said:
Arkie, I'd love to know your recommendations for old cuts providers (in particular OECs) in Oz. I'm from Sydney and would love to see a couple of OECs in person and have no clue where to go. None of the B&M places I've been to even know about OECs let alone stock any!

TIA!!
Everything (even with the 25% extra exchange rate) is going to probably be cheaper in the US you will find nicer cuts there but to go and have a look - try the QVB there are several places;

https://www.kalmarantiques.com.au/

http://www.martinandstein.com.au/

http://www.chiltonsantiques.com.au/

Some of the other jewellery shops are well worth a look in there as well, but remember you pay a premium for the real estate rentals they pay!!! I find that it's a lovely way to spend a half day just looking at jewels.
 

arkieb1

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Wombats|1471064854|4065381 said:
Thank you Arkieb. Yes, I'm in Australia, Brisbane (does my username give it away?!), and it's very tricky to find a nice old cut stone to look at.

Thank you, I have been looking at both Grace's, GOG and have also contacted OWD. I'm just trying to narrow down the features I prefer before getting ahead of myself.

From this thread it's clear I have a preference for (a well cut) small culet! I'm not a huge fan of the kozibe effect.

I thought the three stones I posted in the start of the thread were all pretty. They each have small culets and two are more Transitional, less blocky, yet retain that flowery pattern.
Yep I understand. I think the stones that will be best suited to you will be a super well cut OEC like a new old cut from Victor Canera or GOG, or a really well cut OEC with small culet from one of the Antique dealers in the US or an arrowed transitional stone from one of the US antique dealers. You won't find anything as well cut here and the prices even with our exchange rate and tax will still probably mean you will get a better stone overseas.

There isn't much here but the few are;

Go and see Ken at Penfolds Antique jewellers, his website isn't working so I can't put the link but you can google him or find the address on Facebook. While you are in the city cross the road and go into the Myer Arcade, this shop usually has a few Old Cuts in their inventory albeit expensive and sometimes average cut ones;

http://www.preciousstonesjewellers.com.au/

Kellie's Antiques usually only has small diamonds, but the whole arcade they are in is great to wander around looking at bling;

http://www.kelliesantiques.com/

If you feel like going for a day trip again the prices will be higher than the US but Isabella's at Noose has some beautiful rings;

http://isabellasjewellery.com.au/display/old-euro-cut-402ct-solitaire-ring,459

Out in the burbs occasionally these guys at Clayfield have a few nice rings to look at overpriced but pretty none the less;

http://www.antiquesbrisbane.com.au/antique-jewellery.html

Out of curiosity was the photo above taken at Clayfield? It looks a bit like their cabinets :D

And Harrington and Co, at Woolloongabba again, generally don't have well cut stuff but they buy and sell and have a rapid turn over and they get a few old cuts too;

http://www.hnco.com.au/jewellery/

I think look at as much as you can and then work from there. If you find a stone you like with the US vendors, put it on hold and then post it here everyone will give your their opinions.

And if you want some eyecandy the catalogues from Keshett and from Rutherfords down in Melbourne are well worth looking at too, again the rings are overpriced but they stock Singlestone settings (well known US high end Antique dealer well known on here) and some magnificent jewels.
 

ericad

Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

As others have stated, don't confuse a poorly cut stone with the culet. Culets vary in size, but macro pics are a blessing and a curse - they make even very small culets look huge! In reality, they are barely visible to the eye.

Here's an idea - save a pic of an OEC you like and shrink it to actual size for perspective. You can even print it, cut it out and see it to scale. Sounds silly, but I've had people do this and it helps! Good luck with your search, and welcome to the old cut club!
 

Queenie60

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

What is Kozibe? Trying to learn more about OEC's as I am considering a purchase from Love Affair Diamonds in the near future. Seems to be different terminology than that of MRB. Following this thread closely as I'm trying to absorb as much information as possible before making the purchase!
 

ericad

Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Kozibe is the culet reflecting around the diamond like bits of confetti. Here's an example. It can look odd in still pics, but in person it creates a lively dynamic effect - quite lovely. But it's a matter of preference - people usually love it or hate it, and many old cuts don't have it.

_5281.jpeg
 

Wombats

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Test

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

Wombats

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Thank you arkieb1! I really appreciate your time.

I think you have summarised what I like in OECs well. I'm hoping to set the OEC in a VC Emilya halo. In Addition to your own "Charlie" ring, I'm inspired by mns12 VC halo with plain shank and twosanguinehearts VC halo new OEC cut.

Yes, the original photo I posted was taken at Clayfield Antiques, well spotted!

Hopefully, the baby will nap one day this week and I'll spend a nice afternoon checking out some of the stores you've listed.

I think I'm enjoying the search as much as the future ring itself. I'm pretty sure this is the last time my husband will ever use the phrase "you can have whatever you want" in conjunction with anniversary jewellery [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

Thanks Erica

Cheers

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

Wombats

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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Thanks ericadd also. Good idea to try and get a more realistic idea of stones as opposed to the zoomed in online image. I had been worried about the original image I posted and being able to see straight through to my finger, but this thread has set me right!

Appreciate your help.

Cheers

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

When you are ready list the size, and colour of the stone/ring you want and a rough budget working in US dollars (and don't forget to factor 10% extra for taxes and duties) and we will all recommend stone options for you. :wavey:
 

SeekingClarity

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Messages
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

arkieb1|1471070250|4065399 said:
Wombats|1471064854|4065381 said:
Thank you Arkieb. Yes, I'm in Australia, Brisbane (does my username give it away?!), and it's very tricky to find a nice old cut stone to look at.

Thank you, I have been looking at both Grace's, GOG and have also contacted OWD. I'm just trying to narrow down the features I prefer before getting ahead of myself.

From this thread it's clear I have a preference for (a well cut) small culet! I'm not a huge fan of the kozibe effect.

I thought the three stones I posted in the start of the thread were all pretty. They each have small culets and two are more Transitional, less blocky, yet retain that flowery pattern.
Yep I understand. I think the stones that will be best suited to you will be a super well cut OEC like a new old cut from Victor Canera or GOG, or a really well cut OEC with small culet from one of the Antique dealers in the US or an arrowed transitional stone from one of the US antique dealers. You won't find anything as well cut here and the prices even with our exchange rate and tax will still probably mean you will get a better stone overseas.

There isn't much here but the few are;

Go and see Ken at Penfolds Antique jewellers, his website isn't working so I can't put the link but you can google him or find the address on Facebook. While you are in the city cross the road and go into the Myer Arcade, this shop usually has a few Old Cuts in their inventory albeit expensive and sometimes average cut ones;

http://www.preciousstonesjewellers.com.au/

Kellie's Antiques usually only has small diamonds, but the whole arcade they are in is great to wander around looking at bling;

http://www.kelliesantiques.com/

If you feel like going for a day trip again the prices will be higher than the US but Isabella's at Noose has some beautiful rings;

http://isabellasjewellery.com.au/display/old-euro-cut-402ct-solitaire-ring,459

Out in the burbs occasionally these guys at Clayfield have a few nice rings to look at overpriced but pretty none the less;

http://www.antiquesbrisbane.com.au/antique-jewellery.html

Out of curiosity was the photo above taken at Clayfield? It looks a bit like their cabinets :D

And Harrington and Co, at Woolloongabba again, generally don't have well cut stuff but they buy and sell and have a rapid turn over and they get a few old cuts too;

http://www.hnco.com.au/jewellery/

I think look at as much as you can and then work from there. If you find a stone you like with the US vendors, put it on hold and then post it here everyone will give your their opinions.

And if you want some eyecandy the catalogues from Keshett and from Rutherfords down in Melbourne are well worth looking at too, again the rings are overpriced but they stock Singlestone settings (well known US high end Antique dealer well known on here) and some magnificent jewels.
Hi arkieb1, are these store recommendations just for older style cuts or would you recommend them for a modern round brilliant cut stone as well? Wombats pointed me to this thread, so hoping to get some more insight into what's available locally in Sydney.

Cheers,
SC
 

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
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3,475
Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Hi, I'm in Sydney too. There is one or two antique jewellers in the Strand Arcade and a few along Elizabeth street as well. From my own experience the prices they'll be asking will make your eyes water - though the rents they pay explain it. Seriously the diamond quality for the most part are very ordinary so it would make more sense and you'll have far far more choice to source one through the gurus here on Pricescopers. But it's good to get an idea of shape and style and sizing of the older style diamonds as they are different to your modern round cut.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
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Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Most of the places listed above are to give you a sense of Antique stones, in some of the arcades like the QVB, yes there are a number of jewellery stores with stunning modern cuts and Argyle pinks as well on display. Unless you fall for something and have a big budget, I don't overly advise you shop at them, just look and try on a range of things and learn what your tastes are, colour wise, shape/cut wise, come back here and we will all make suggestions within your budgets.
 

misskittycat

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
1,068
Re: What is this part of the diamond called? OEC / Transitio

Best places to see good antique diamonds - to get a sense of what they are really like are:

Sydney: Martin and Stein (just ignore the prices, they are horrendous and the quoted specifications of stones are often really dubious). Most pieces are original - they rarely have loose stones for purchase or viewing. http://www.martinandstein.com.au/

Melbourne:
Rutherfords on Collins Street - they stock mostly antique jewellery, antique stones in new repro and modern settings and even some loose stones. They also stock pieces by Singlestone and Sebastian Barrier which is fabulous. They carry GIA certified stones, which is a bonus. http://www.rutherford.com.au/

Keshett - More antiques and repros, the quality is lower than Rutherfords, but so are the prices. But a good place to start if you are thinking under 2ct as that's their sweet spot. They have a lot of intricate designs whereas Rutherford seem to stock more classic pieces.
http://www.keshett.com.au/
 
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