What do you consider a 'sincere' apology?

[aljdewey]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

Well, that makes two of us.

And sadly, this has happened before ..... a loaded question with another agenda. I should have seen this coming, but I haven't been around much to see the blow-up that apparently prompted it.

My bad, and I concur with Maccers - would prefer my comments pulled from this discussion due to the turn in context.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

alj, I think those who answered the original post and replied with a general answer should not be concerned. We can all see who answered the question in general. Gypsy and I don't always agree on everything, but in this instance, we have both seen some recurring problems.

 

[aljdewey]

alj, I think those who answered the original post and replied with a general answer should not be concerned. We can all see who answered the question in general. Gypsy and I don't always agree on everything, but in this instance, we have both seen some recurring problems.

DS, this thread now feels like it was a veiled way of backing into the discussion about those 'recurring problems', which itself breaks other rules here. How is that better?

I do understand why some of you are miffed; I take issue with his posting style too, but I equally take issue with starting a loaded thread that's couched to look like an innocuous general discussion but really is meant as a vehicle to have another more pointed discussion. It's pretty clear that those 'in the know' knew this post was really about something else, and it feels like a really backhanded way to go about it.

I can't fault anyone for finding his style offensive - I'd count myself among them, actually, but I'd have a ton more respect if those who do would approach it head-on instead of starting some random thread pretending it's something else.

 

[Gypsy]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

Well, that makes two of us.

And sadly, this has happened before ..... a loaded question with another agenda. I should have seen this coming, but I haven't been around much to see the blow-up that apparently prompted it.

My bad, and I concur with Maccers - would prefer my comments pulled from this discussion due to the turn in context.

I really did have more than one goal. And one of them WAS to promote GENERAL thoughtful discourse. I am sad you both deleted your comments because I felt that they were very thoughtful. But I understand your choice as well .

As for doing things head on. We (DS, Charmy, Me and many others) have TRIED to tackle this with RD head on. But on RT it blows up, and RD takes it from thread to thread (doesn't keep it confined to one thread) attacking people. And it blows up a board full of newbies and gives a bad impression to them.

So I moved it here, because most people on Hangout are not newbies. And because I value the opinions of those on Hangout and DID really want thoughtful discourse.

But I can see your point, and I should have referenced the original prompting for this post from the start, and I am sorry that I didn't, and realize that was wrong, because it was misleading. So I will remember that in the future.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

alj, I think those who answered the original post and replied with a general answer should not be concerned. We can all see who answered the question in general. Gypsy and I don't always agree on everything, but in this instance, we have both seen some recurring problems.

DS, this thread now feels like it was a veiled way of backing into the discussion about those 'recurring problems', which itself breaks other rules here. How is that better?

I do understand why some of you are miffed; I take issue with his posting style too, but I equally take issue with starting a loaded thread that's couched to look like an innocuous general discussion but really is meant as a vehicle to have another more pointed discussion. It's pretty clear that those 'in the know' knew this post was really about something else, and it feels like a really backhanded way to go about it.

I can't fault anyone for finding his style offensive - I'd count myself among them, actually, but I'd have a ton more respect if those who do would approach it head-on instead of starting some random thread pretending it's something else.

It was really my fault, Alj. I think I am the one who brought it up that I knew the backstory. I am truly sorry if I caused confusion.

 

[Skippy123]

I don't understand why my post got deleted?

I think the whole thread should be deleted imo.

 

[aljdewey]

I'd like my post deleted from this thread as this is not really meant to be general discussion question but a loaded question. I feel a bit foolish for posting previously when I didn't realize there was a completely different agenda.

Well, that makes two of us.

And sadly, this has happened before ..... a loaded question with another agenda. I should have seen this coming, but I haven't been around much to see the blow-up that apparently prompted it.

My bad, and I concur with Maccers - would prefer my comments pulled from this discussion due to the turn in context.

I really did have more than one goal. And one of them WAS to promote GENERAL thoughtful discourse. I am sad you both deleted your comments because I felt that they were very thoughtful. But I understand your choice as well .

As for doing things head on. We (DS, Charmy, Me and many others) have TRIED to tackle this with RD head on. But on RT it blows up, and RD takes it from thread to thread (doesn't keep it confined to one thread) attacking people. And it blows up a board full of newbies and gives a bad impression to them.

So I moved it here, because most people on Hangout are not newbies. And because I value the opinions of those on Hangout and DID really want thoughtful discourse.

But I can see your point, and I should have referenced the original prompting for this post from the start, and I am sorry that I didn't, and realize that was wrong, because it was misleading. So I will remember that in the future.

Gyps, I do get your point above (I bolded it). I've been in that same spot, too, re the frustration. We're closer than you think on that, believe me.

It's pretty clear, though, that change won't be forthcoming from the source, so I think the best path is to keep registering your dissent with the mods.

 

[Begonia]

I am heavily opinionated. I realized a lot of my opinion is about ego. Establishing my intelligence/knowledge/expertise etc.

That said, I have learned to think before I speak. I wait.

Mum said: be careful what you say, you can't take it back once you've said it. Apologies can't always undo what's been said, and the effects of what's been said.

If the issue has become a pattern...then apologies aren't worth much. Change the behavior and stop with the apologies.

Is this the right time? Am I the right person? Do I have the right words?

Asking yourself those questions will buy you some needed time.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Alj, +1

 

[aljdewey]

*Edited because I realized I'd misread the other thread prompting this one, so my contribution is no longer on point.

 

[Gypsy]

I don't agree this thread should be deleted. A) the topic in general terms is interesting and is promoting a lot of thoughtful responses such as MyDiamondSparkles (and some that were unfortunately deleted by Alj and maccers) and, B) because this issue with RD is not being addressed by the moderators (despite multiple people reporting him, including myself) and does keep blowing up Rocky Talky which really makes a poor impression.

Also, in order to make amends for my earlier error; here is the provoking thread for those that wish to read it:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/post3332595.html#p3332595']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/post3332595.html#p3332595[/URL]

Alj, **I** felt it was not on point in that RT thread, so **I** moved it here for the reasons stated above. We didn't need another showcase on RT. But you are right, he is not going to change. And I HAVE addressed it to the moderators.

 

[aljdewey]

Gypsy, I completely feel your frustration, and as I said, I do share the same frustrations with RD's delivery.

That said, though, it's not fully accurate to say that the moderators aren't addressing it. In that very thread, RD was addressed in that by the mods and reigned back a bit. I get that it's not being addressed in the way you want it to, but that's not the same as not being addressed.

My real concern is this: starting a thread about it to take matters into your own hands because you don't think it's being handled satisfactorily kind of diminishes your argument to them about RD. You're complaining that he's not honoring the rules of PS (respect) by doing something equally outside the policies. It's a tough position to argue from....it's kind of hard to lobby for resolution of a perceived problem by creating another.

Ultimately, it's their (PS owners') sandbox, and it's our choice to hang out in it......or not. I contribute a LOT less here than I used to for many of the reasons you cite (and I see that many other formerly very actively posters have barely steamed a mirror here lately either.) I have to think that will eventually become a source for concern, and I'd wager that change will come when it reaches a critical state.

 

[Gypsy]

Gypsy, I completely feel your frustration, and as I said, I do share the same frustrations with RD's delivery.

That said, though, it's not fully accurate to say that the moderators aren't addressing it. In that very thread, RD was addressed in that by the mods and reigned back a bit. I get that it's not being addressed in the way you want it to, but that's not the same as not being addressed.

My real concern is this: starting a thread about it to take matters into your own hands because you don't think it's being handled satisfactorily kind of diminishes your argument to them about RD. You're complaining that he's not honoring the rules of PS (respect) by doing something equally outside the policies. It's a tough position to argue from....it's kind of hard to lobby for resolution of a perceived problem by creating another.

Ultimately, it's their (PS owners') sandbox, and it's our choice to hang out in it......or not. I contribute a LOT less here than I used to for many of the reasons you cite (and I see that many other formerly very actively posters have barely steamed a mirror here lately either.) I have to think that will eventually become a source for concern, and I'd wager that change will come when it reaches a critical state.

I can see what you are saying. I had not thought of it that way. I'll think on it.

 

[madelise]

Darnit. I really like the original post, and the discourse that followed. I was hoping someone would chime in and tell me of the holes in my thought process. lol. Boo.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's clear some people have no real interest in an open discourse or listening to any apologies ( and would simply like to fry my butt) however my goal is to improve, always. I can't change who I am- or my passions- but I am willing ...eager to learn better ways to communicate.
I ask this earnestly.
What is the correct course of action:
Consumer and respected poster posts the following
"XYZ Jewelers has something NO other place has, it's......"
Whatever it is, for the purposes of discussion, let's say it's something more costly than "normal"- and is shown in the dealer literature to be both superior to others, and unique
Then, a second poster repeats this . Then a third, until it's a "fact"
Then every person asking gets told "xyz is the best- and ONLY place you can buy it"
In this hypothetical example, the product or service that was described is an excellent one, and actually well priced for what it is- however it is not "the only" one.
Many sales brochures, or websites make such claims.
Although the dealer may show ways his product is unique, I may have inside knowledge that there are indeed other places to buy something equivalent ( I'm NOT talking about from us)
What is most beneficial for consumers wanting impartial information?


My position is doubly difficult.
We are a sponsor, and I have the dual purpose of my goal of promoting transparency in the diamond business- as well as the fact we are an internet seller, and having my link posted has benefits.
I do know that it's a very delicate and difficult thing to openly disagree- yet it seems that sometimes there's limited options other than letting a snowball of misinformation continue to grow and grow.
AS opposed to any consumer, this is my life's work, and I take my work seriously.


How can one express a different perspective on this forum and not have it seen as confrontational?
Clearly I need to do better- and I truly want to.
I welcome and hope for any constructive answers people may have.

 

[aljdewey]

Darnit. I really like the original post, and the discourse that followed. I was hoping someone would chime in and tell me of the holes in my thought process. lol. Boo.

HA - if we're talking about the general premise (and not the thread-specific issue)......

Well, you won't get me pointing out holes to you because I agree with you. I do think that it's possible to not regret my choice but to feel badly when others feel hurt by them. It was never my intention to hurt my aunt's feelings, but it was absolutely important to me and to my hub to have the intimate kind of wedding we wanted.

To me, apologizing shouldn't mean having to be untrue to yourself or involve abandoning one's own convictions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Darnit. I really like the original post, and the discourse that followed. I was hoping someone would chime in and tell me of the holes in my thought process. lol. Boo.

HA - if we're talking about the general premise (and not the thread-specific issue)......

Well, you won't get me pointing out holes to you because I agree with you. I do think that it's possible to not regret my choice but to feel badly when others feel hurt by them. It was never my intention to hurt my aunt's feelings, but it was absolutely important to me and to my hub to have the intimate kind of wedding we wanted.

To me, apologizing shouldn't mean having to be untrue to yourself or involve abandoning one's own convictions.

I totally agree. Two different scenarios.

 

[isaku5]

IMHO, #1 is the only sincere apology. Numbers two and three don't even come close.

'I'm sorry' is acceptable only for bumping into someone accidentally; usually, I amend even that to 'I'm so sorry'. Wimpy? No, just polite.

 

[Maisie]

It's clear some people have no real interest in an open discourse or listening to any apologies ( and would simply like to fry my butt) however my goal is to improve, always. I can't change who I am- or my passions- but I am willing ...eager to learn better ways to communicate.
I ask this earnestly.
What is the correct course of action:
Consumer and respected poster posts the following
"XYZ Jewelers has something NO other place has, it's......"
Whatever it is, for the purposes of discussion, let's say it's something more costly than "normal"- and is shown in the dealer literature to be both superior to others, and unique
Then, a second poster repeats this . Then a third, until it's a "fact"
Then every person asking gets told "xyz is the best- and ONLY place you can buy it"
In this hypothetical example, the product or service that was described is an excellent one, and actually well priced for what it is- however it is not "the only" one.
Many sales brochures, or websites make such claims.
Although the dealer may show ways his product is unique, I may have inside knowledge that there are indeed other places to buy something equivalent ( I'm NOT talking about from us)
What is most beneficial for consumers wanting impartial information?


My position is doubly difficult.
We are a sponsor, and I have the dual purpose of my goal of promoting transparency in the diamond business- as well as the fact we are an internet seller, and having my link posted has benefits.
I do know that it's a very delicate and difficult thing to openly disagree- yet it seems that sometimes there's limited options other than letting a snowball of misinformation continue to grow and grow.
AS opposed to any consumer, this is my life's work, and I take my work seriously.


How can one express a different perspective on this forum and not have it seen as confrontational?
Clearly I need to do better- and I truly want to.
I welcome and hope for any constructive answers people may have.

I haven't worked with you (although I almost did once) and this is just my opinion based on recent events. You seem to be desperate for people to buy from your company. I understand this. You sell nice things and the economy is such that everyone is struggling at the minute....especially vendors of luxury goods. But instead of building up a good friendly relationship with people on PS you seem to alienate people. It is your posting style. It seems to rub people up the wrong way. You can come across as aggressive. You sometimes break the rules when you post. That won't win you customers either. You are constantly challenging the way people view ideal cut diamonds because YOU don't agree with their viewpoint. While I agree that some diamonds that aren't ideal cut can be beautiful, a lot of buyers don't want the hassle of filtering through them all to find the one that will perform in a great way. I speak for myself when I say that its easier for me to just buy an ideal cut and have done with it.

I know you like to educate people but if you are honest your real goal when you post here is to win custom for your website. Again I totally understand this. But if you want to build up a loyal custom base you need to look at the way you post. Perhaps you could look at other vendors who participate here (and have many loyal customers) and see what they do differently to you?

 

[Gypsy]

And I agree with that.

I think it's different if you have handled something with tact and consideration and all it comes down to is a difference of opinion to say, "I'm sorry this choice of mine has hurt you."

It's the details there... like you said before "devil is in the details."

My feeling is... normally in those agree to disagree discussions, if you handle yourself with tact you don't have to apologize for anything.

I had the same discussions over our wedding. We didn't invite anyone past 1st cousins because we couldn't afford it.

I didn't apologize. I said, "We will miss you, but unfortunately we had to make a cut off somewhere due to financial reasons and we appreciate your understanding in advance. We'd love to make plans to see you next time you are in town."

I guess what I am saying is, while I am forced to do #2 apologies sometimes I try to avoid them if at all possible. I don't always succeed.

 

[aljdewey]

And I agree with that.

I think it's different if you have handled something with tact and consideration and all it comes down to is a difference of opinion to say, "I'm sorry this choice of mine has hurt you."

It's the details there... like you said before "devil is in the details."

My feeling is... normally in those agree to disagree discussions, if you handle yourself with tact you don't have to apologize for anything.

I had the same discussions over our wedding. We didn't invite anyone past 1st cousins because we couldn't afford it.

I didn't apologize. I said, "We will miss you, but unfortunately we had to make a cut off somewhere due to financial reasons and we appreciate your understanding in advance. We'd love to make plans to see you next time you are in town."

I guess what I am saying is, while I am forced to do #2 apologies sometimes I try to avoid them if at all possible. I don't always succeed.

Yeah, I don't either....LOL.

I couldn't even hang my hat on finances - we just didn't want a circus, and I'm not that close to my extended family. Oddly enough, all of my aunts/uncles understood and respected our decision except for that one. Despite having been told it wasn't a personal exclusion, she felt personally slighted when she couldn't bully me (through my mother) into changing my parameters. (She'd done this successfully with another cousin who married a few years prior.) Even knowing that she feels hurt, I'd make the same decision again because it was aligned with our beliefs of what our wedding should be.

You know how that goes - can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's clear some people have no real interest in an open discourse or listening to any apologies ( and would simply like to fry my butt) however my goal is to improve, always. I can't change who I am- or my passions- but I am willing ...eager to learn better ways to communicate.
I ask this earnestly.
What is the correct course of action:
Consumer and respected poster posts the following
"XYZ Jewelers has something NO other place has, it's......"
Whatever it is, for the purposes of discussion, let's say it's something more costly than "normal"- and is shown in the dealer literature to be both superior to others, and unique
Then, a second poster repeats this . Then a third, until it's a "fact"
Then every person asking gets told "xyz is the best- and ONLY place you can buy it"
In this hypothetical example, the product or service that was described is an excellent one, and actually well priced for what it is- however it is not "the only" one.
Many sales brochures, or websites make such claims.
Although the dealer may show ways his product is unique, I may have inside knowledge that there are indeed other places to buy something equivalent ( I'm NOT talking about from us)
What is most beneficial for consumers wanting impartial information?


My position is doubly difficult.
We are a sponsor, and I have the dual purpose of my goal of promoting transparency in the diamond business- as well as the fact we are an internet seller, and having my link posted has benefits.
I do know that it's a very delicate and difficult thing to openly disagree- yet it seems that sometimes there's limited options other than letting a snowball of misinformation continue to grow and grow.
AS opposed to any consumer, this is my life's work, and I take my work seriously.


How can one express a different perspective on this forum and not have it seen as confrontational?
Clearly I need to do better- and I truly want to.
I welcome and hope for any constructive answers people may have.

I haven't worked with you (although I almost did once) and this is just my opinion based on recent events. You seem to be desperate for people to buy from your company. I understand this. You sell nice things and the economy is such that everyone is struggling at the minute....especially vendors of luxury goods. But instead of building up a good friendly relationship with people on PS you seem to alienate people. It is your posting style. It seems to rub people up the wrong way. You can come across as aggressive. You sometimes break the rules when you post. That won't win you customers either. You are constantly challenging the way people view ideal cut diamonds because YOU don't agree with their viewpoint. While I agree that some diamonds that aren't ideal cut can be beautiful, a lot of buyers don't want the hassle of filtering through them all to find the one that will perform in a great way. I speak for myself when I say that its easier for me to just buy an ideal cut and have done with it.

I know you like to educate people but if you are honest your real goal when you post here is to win custom for your website. Again I totally understand this. But if you want to build up a loyal custom base you need to look at the way you post. Perhaps you could look at other vendors who participate here (and have many loyal customers) and see what they do differently to you?

Thank you Maise for that thoughtful answer.
About looking at other vendors posting on PS, I honestly don't see other vendors "in the trenches" answering consumer questions on a day to day basis.
I am lucky ( or unlucky depending on one's perspective) to have a company that sells a large amount of diamonds and jewelry on the web.
Although we have gotten a lot of business from Pricescope over the years- and it's very welcome- it's not our main source of traffic by any means. Plus whatever business we've gotten here was done without the benefit of people who post a lot and have never liked me or recommended our company
I said "unlucky" because I have the time to devote to a forum like this while running an active business.
Which is clearly a double edged sword.

About "Ideal" diamonds: There's a number of ways to present this product.
One way, IMO the transparent way- involves showing what different diamond cuts look like, without "upselling" people to our more costly branded diamonds.
If it's continually repeated that there's something "wrong" with a very well cut stone that is NOT branded, we are simply encouraging people to blindly spend more- or get a smaller diamond.
By all means buy the more costly branded stone if it suits you- but transparency in representation means showing the difference between the two diamonds with no advantage given to the more costly stone.
IN reality, there IS a difference, but it is subtle enough that a smaller percentage of buyers will be willing to pay it when shown the difference impartially.
Just like a very fine car, bottle of wine or anything where fine taste and subtle differences come into play, a smaller percentage of discriminating buyers will be willing to pay for the best.
And we sell the more costly "super ideal" stones, so I have a lot of incentive to try and "push" that idea that you "need" to buy "super ideal".
When I've suggested that people look at this with a more open mind, it does not get taken kindly.
This issue is near and dear to me- it's my life's work.

 

[Gypsy]

Rockdiamond.

My best advice (and I mean this sincerely). If you want to have a posting presence here. Pay someone with tact to do it and trust them when they tell you, "I can't post that, it will be counter productive or it crosses the line, or will only lead to a bad place'. Because you have no judgement of where that line is, and when it is crossed. And I don't think that's something that can be taught to someone. It's judgement. Get a John Pollard or an Allison Dewey. I don't think there is ANY magic word, sentence, paragraph, essay anyone can give you to show you 'the light'. You need someone else to do it for you.

If it were some OTHER vendor, I would say... ask Wink or John Pollard or someone how they do it and emulate that. Heck PAY THEM to show you what they do. What Bill Pearlman used to do when he posted. But I really just think that the problem is you here. This is a consumer advocacy focused forum. And what you've described is largely what happens on such a forum. YES there are ways to counter it, but I really don't think it is without the scope of your personality/character to be able to be SUCCESSFUL posting in such an environment because you lack judgement to realize where the line is and when you've crossed it.

That's pretty much the beginning, middle and end of it there.

 

[aljdewey]

Gypsy, I admire your tenacity.......but why not come join me in a piece of pie instead?

It's a much more productive and fruitFUL than chasing something fruitless. I prefer fruit pies - typically big ole lemon ones. I'll even let you have the bigger piece (and that's saying something considering how much I like lemon pie. ).

Maybe someone will even open the bar so we can have cocktails with our pie!

 

[Gypsy]

Gypsy, I admire your tenacity.......but why not come join me in a piece of pie instead?

It's a much more productive and fruitFUL than chasing something fruitless. I prefer fruit pies - typically big ole lemon ones. I'll even let you have the bigger piece (and that's saying something considering how much I like lemon pie. ).

Maybe someone will even open the bar so we can have cocktails with our pie!

Okay, that AV is like the cutest thing ever. Is that your dog?

I really like fruit pies as well. Lemon sounds just right-- sweet and tart.

And YES PLEASE to the cocktail. God I need one. Something stronger than my usual bellini. I had some of DH's Johnny Walker Blue the other day and it was actually not disgusting.

How about sharing some Johnny Walker Blue with me Aljdewey? In the spirit of Holiday Peace.

 

[zoebartlett]

Well, now I feel guilty for being snarky.

Pie sounds like a great idea, Alj!

 

[Ella]

Ladies, we will handle this as we need to just as we handle other situations on and off the forum.

For all of those who want one person banned I can assure you we receive equal numbers of reports asking for others to be banned.

It is Andrey's forum and he will do what he sees fit based on the information available to him. There is often more to both sides of the story than any one poster sees at one time.

A reminder that it is not ok to question our decisions on the forum. If you have questions, email and ask for a response.

 

[Gypsy]

Ladies, we will handle this as we need to just as we handle other situations on and off the forum.

For all of those who want one person banned I can assure you we receive equal numbers of reports asking for others to be banned.

It is Andrey's forum and he will do what he sees fit based on the information available to him. There is often more to both sides of the story than any one poster sees at one time.

A reminder that it is not ok to question our decisions on the forum. If you have questions, email and ask for a response.

Of course Ella. I do apologize for crossing that line.

Want some pie? Whiskey is available as well. And it's "not disgusting" which is the highest level of praise I can muster for whiskey.

 

[princesss]

I've been so buried in work I haven't seen this thread, but I can say that I will shortly be in possession of a bottle of tequila rumoured to be good enough that you don't have to pronounce it "to-kill-ya" and everybody is welcome to share.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am sorry (type #2) but I have to have wine at this party.