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VVS2 Diamond. Inclusions? Please help!

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Hello,

My engagement ring has four dark spots which are starting to annoy me. I noticed one of the dark spots when my fiancé first presented the ring to me, and since then, I have noticed three more. I've read online numerous times that diamonds which are graded VVS2 shouldnt have any visible inclusions, so these four dark spots are really starting to concern me. I'm worried my fiancé may have been ripped off! Its a (I think) 0.25CT phoenix cut, graded F on the colour scale and is bezel set in platinum. Could the dark spots I see be shadows where the base of the diamond is against the platinum? The darks spots are really visible in some lights. Please tell me its just the setting? Please help!
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
21,660
Hi Katio,
Who is the stone graded by ( AGS, GIA, EGL...)?

tyty333
 

Fulvia

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
246
You shouldn't be seeing any inclusions in a GIA-graded VVS2, especially of that size. Which lab graded the diamond as I VVS2? After a quick google search I see that the Phoenix cut is a brand, so it's possible that the stats are some kind of in-house grading system not as rigorous as GIA.
 

acaw2015

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
763
have you tried cleaning it, maybe get it professionally cleaned by a jeweler? Maybe what youre seeing is simply dirt. I once had a speck of mascara get stuck really hard on my vs1 solitaire and it looked like two annoying inclusions. I knew there were no inclusions there so I didnt panick. :) Did take me some time to remove though. I have learnt my lesson and never clean makeup or anthing like that with my rings on since then. Just a thought... :wavey:
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Hello,

Thank you for your replies! It is graded by HRD. Are they reputable? When I questioned the jewellers my ring was purchased from, they explained that Cartier use diamonds graded by HRD too. This has put my mind at ease somewhat, but still, the black spots, they're worrying me! In a bezel setting, is the bottom of the diamond held in place at all, or is it just the framing around the top of the diamond? I am wondering if the dark spots I can see is something to do with the way its set? Also, I'm sure its not dirt I'm seeing as it seems impossible for anything to get down there.

Any light shed would be much appreciated!

:)
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
37,363
In a bezel setting, the diamond is held "up" by a lip of metal encircling the diamond's girdle. Give the diamond a thorough clean (professionally steam cleaned by your local jeweller) and see whether you still see this darkness.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,612
Definitely have the ring cleaned and examined by another jeweler and ask them to look at it through the microscope and check clarity for you.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
HRD is very reputable.

Either that is not a VVS2 (as in it's the wrong stone) or there's some such stuff on the outside of it.
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Thank you for your replies all.

I took it to a jewellers and explained that I could see the dark spots, and in her opinion, they are SHADOWS?! Is this a thing? Do shadows exist within diamonds? She also confirmed that they looked like VVS2 diamonds. She also said it was 'eye clean'. But how is it eye clean if I see x4 dark 'shadows'? Whilst I was in the shop, I was reassured, however, the dark spots are still annoying me. Would the shadows disappear if my diamond wasn't in a bezel setting? Also, the diamond is 0.4 carat, not 0.25 as previously stated.

Thanks everyone!
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
Katlo|1467733767|4051624 said:
I took it to a jewellers and explained that I could see the dark spots, and in her opinion, they are SHADOWS?! Is this a thing? Do shadows exist within diamonds?
Your head and body block light. Parts of a diamond "looking" for light but "seeing" your head will become dark. This is called contrast.

Different diamond types show different contrast patterns. Shape and facet arrangement, frequency of facets and cutting angles all factor into whether you see light leakage or dead areas at some angles, or persistent dark areas regardless of angle. In marquise, ovals and pears such persistent areas are known as "bow-ties."

The phoenix cut is an emerald-radiant hybrid with 89 facets. With this facet-arrangement it's possible you are seeing a bow-tie effect. It's also possible that, with 89-facets on a 0.40ct diamond, the surface-area of some of the facets is just not large enough for nominal light return to your eyes, causing the shadow effect you're seeing.

In any case: I would speculate that it's a result of the facet arrangement, or something on the diamond, which is causing this effect; not the VVS inclusions.

Hope this is useful.

phoenix-cut-wireframe.jpg
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Hello,

Thank you very much for your insight. It is much appreciated. I have since read about the bowtie effect and believe that this is what I am seeing. I just find it difficult to be okay with, knowing that this is supposedly a really good quality diamond. A jeweller told me it was 'eye clean' however seeing this bowtie effect doesn't make it 'eye clean' for me. I have inspected other diamonds at jewellers and have seen diamonds with the bowtie effect and some without. Id really prefer mine didn't have it but what can I do :)

Thanks for your knowledge on the subject. This was a great place to express my concerns!

Kind regards,
Kat
 

kb1gra

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
621
Katlo|1476868704|4088523 said:
Hello,

Thank you very much for your insight. It is much appreciated. I have since read about the bowtie effect and believe that this is what I am seeing. I just find it difficult to be okay with, knowing that this is supposedly a really good quality diamond. A jeweller told me it was 'eye clean' however seeing this bowtie effect doesn't make it 'eye clean' for me. I have inspected other diamonds at jewellers and have seen diamonds with the bowtie effect and some without. Id really prefer mine didn't have it but what can I do :)

Thanks for your knowledge on the subject. This was a great place to express my concerns!

Kind regards,
Kat
Eye clean refers only to inclusions. What you're seeing are not inclusions so the stone is eye clean.

What you are referring to is really "mind clean" regarding defects in performance.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,173
John Pollard|1467738761|4051653 said:
Katlo|1467733767|4051624 said:
I took it to a jewellers and explained that I could see the dark spots, and in her opinion, they are SHADOWS?! Is this a thing? Do shadows exist within diamonds?
Your head and body block light. Parts of a diamond "looking" for light but "seeing" your head will become dark. This is called contrast.

Different diamond types show different contrast patterns. Shape and facet arrangement, frequency of facets and cutting angles all factor into whether you see light leakage or dead areas at some angles, or persistent dark areas regardless of angle. In marquise, ovals and pears such persistent areas are known as "bow-ties."

The phoenix cut is an emerald-radiant hybrid with 89 facets. With this facet-arrangement it's possible you are seeing a bow-tie effect. It's also possible that, with 89-facets on a 0.40ct diamond, the surface-area of some of the facets is just not large enough for nominal light return to your eyes, causing the shadow effect you're seeing.

In any case: I would speculate that it's a result of the facet arrangement, or something on the diamond, which is causing this effect; not the VVS inclusions.

Hope this is useful.
Awesome info, sir :sun:
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Thank you everyone!

Its interesting to note that the Phoenix cut is actually a Radiant cut. Thanks for all the info. I will continue to love my diamond, bowtie and all! :)
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,559
Katlo|1481299455|4105886 said:
Thank you everyone! Its interesting to note that the Phoenix cut is actually a Radiant cut. Thanks for all the info. I will continue to love my diamond, bowtie and all! :)
And it will continue to love you ;-)

You may be interested in some history about the design. The original radiant cut was introduced by Henry Grossbard in the 1970s. It had 70 facets. Since that time many hybrids have appeared with additional facets and modifications. Understandably, the Grossbard family has worked to preserve Henry Grossbard's original radiant design and keep it apart from modified versions. Thus, properly attributed, the Phoenix cut is not radiant, but it certainly seems inspired by that shape.
 

Katlo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
25
Apologies for the delay in my response. That's really useful to know, thank you!

I have since done a lot of reading on the Phoenix cut and bowties etc. It appears mine has a double bowtie. In conclusion, my diamond does not have inclusions, but the cut has effected its light performance, creating bowties.

Thanks for all of your help! It is indeed a 'mind clean' issue and not an 'eye clean' issue :)
 
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