Viewing the arrow pattern in a H&A

[Jillian]

When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM
Author:Jillian
When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?
Definitely it is lighting dependant - and it is very rare you would see all 8 arrows at once - and equaly any reasonably well cut round will show pretty good stars. The only way to really nail the answer is to look through a H and A viewer - and even then it is important to take a single glance - the way a camera does - not "oh I can see 7 arrows and I move a little to one side and now I see the missing one but 3 others drop out". A photo is really the defining standard.

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.
There is no doubt that a diamond that passes all the other tests we use around here, and has H&A level symmetry will be a great stone. The presence of H&A''s paterns by itself is not enough for me - as there are plenty of examples of such stones with proportions that I believe you can see leakage in when the stones are dirty. I have written articles about such stones.

So while I am at it - I did a little searching for H&A''s pics and found this one from HoF. Now according to the HRD standard on page 18 the arrows here would possibly fail the test. (the hearts might get a medium grade too).

The problem is there is very little chance you will find a lot of HRD graded H&A''s in USA or online and GIA and AGS do not grade H&A''s.

I presume HoF use that image to set a minimum standard - and since there is no international accepted standard - it suits me fine as no one has ever proven H&A''s as being the best selection method. It is simply a rejection method for optical symmetry (IMHO).

There is always a lot of debate floating around regarding a Pricescope standard and my opinion is that the buyer should see the diamond or photos themselves. (the ideal-scope covers off the arrows well enough - but hearts photo''s are important. Some opinions are that the hearts are the most important)

Hope that helps

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM
Author:Jillian
When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

Also the arrows to me and some others look more silvery when you do see them Jillian, not the blacks that are often seen in photos because the diamond is not as obstructed to bring the blackness in the arrows out. If you view a diamond closely then sometimes the arrows look darker or in photos because the shadow of your head or the camera itself will make them look dark, but normally I find they look silvery and rather pretty!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 8/20/2009 4:06:45 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM
Author:Jillian
When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

Also the arrows to me and some others look more silvery when you do see them Jillian, not the blacks that are often seen in photos because the diamond is not as obstructed to bring the blackness in the arrows out. If you view a diamond closely then sometimes the arrows look darker or in photos because the shadow of your head or the camera itself will make them look dark, but normally I find they look silvery and rather pretty!

Lorelei that is when you tilt the diamond usually slighty away from you and you have say an overhead fluorescnt light directly above your head - then the arrows give you a direct hit onto the light

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/20/2009 4:16:38 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 8/20/2009 4:06:45 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM
Author:Jillian
When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

Also the arrows to me and some others look more silvery when you do see them Jillian, not the blacks that are often seen in photos because the diamond is not as obstructed to bring the blackness in the arrows out. If you view a diamond closely then sometimes the arrows look darker or in photos because the shadow of your head or the camera itself will make them look dark, but normally I find they look silvery and rather pretty!

Lorelei that is when you tilt the diamond usually slighty away from you and you have say an overhead fluorescnt light directly above your head - then the arrows give you a direct hit onto the light

Thats about when I notice it more, thanks Garry!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM
Author:Jillian

When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?

Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

I see mine every day, in certain lighting. But as Lorelei said, they appear silvery, very pretty.

And as Gary said, I can''t get them all to show at the same time, I''ve tried!

I would suggest going to look at some HoF, and get them in as many different lighting situations as you can in the store, including natural light, like by a window. Then look at just a nice cut, non H&A, see what you think!

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 8/20/2009 4:06:45 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 8/20/2009 1:38:08 AM

Author:Jillian

When you look at a H&A round diamond set in a piece of jewelry, do you always see the arrows or just under certain lighting conditions, magnification, or some other condition?


Looking at pictures, I am not sure I like the look of the arrows but yet it seems virtually undisputed that this cut is the most ideal cut. Just wondering how often you see the arrows in everyday life.

Also the arrows to me and some others look more silvery when you do see them Jillian, not the blacks that are often seen in photos because the diamond is not as obstructed to bring the blackness in the arrows out. If you view a diamond closely then sometimes the arrows look darker or in photos because the shadow of your head or the camera itself will make them look dark, but normally I find they look silvery and rather pretty!

Loreli,

The black arrows also have a lot to do with the way the photograph is taken. Making attractive pictures is a big deal for the sellers and they each have their own way of doing it. If they use something very dark around the camera in an overall lightly colored environment it makes for dark arrows in the image.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

 

[John P]

Date: 8/20/2009 10:13:56 AM
Author: denverappraiser

The black arrows also have a lot to do with the way the photograph is taken. Making attractive pictures is a big deal for the sellers and they each have their own way of doing it. If they use something very dark around the camera in an overall lightly colored environment it makes for dark arrows in the image.

...The black arrows in photos are a reflection of the dark camera lens in the pavilion mains.

In GIA courses they teach that head shadow is "a reflection of you; seen in the diamond." Our friend Garry has been noting this about the bow tie effect in marquise diamonds for many years.

In normal situations with no lens hovering overhead the pavilion mains are often silvery - for the reason explained above.

 

[John P]

Most round brilliants show a chaotic pattern because the pavilion facets are not in mirrorlike alignment with each other as they are in precisely cut stones.

If you do have a precisely cut diamond and want to see the arrows-effect you can employ a digital camera. Put it on macro, place the ring in a stationary position and position the camera so the lens is close and parallel with the diamond''s table. The smaller the lens the closer it will need to be…decrease and increase distance until you acquire the look you want. It can take some work to get the lens and table facet absolutely parallel but many Pricescopers have captured their own ''arrows'' by doing this.

If you’re in a diffused light condition and have a steady hand you can also darken the arrows by holding the diamond still and blocking the light coming from the highest angles (directly overhead) with your face. But if your face is all aglow this won’t work.

If there is any tilt to the diamond the effect will not resolve itself.

 

[strmrdr]

In a diamond without obstruction issues you will occasionally see the arrows without specificaly looking for them but much more often you will see a flash of light and/or fire off them than black.
Something like 1% black or dark.
Maybe a little more than that if you wear dark clothes or with short lgf%.

 

[loverock]

Date: 8/20/2009 11:11:57 AM
Author: John Pollard
Most round brilliants show a chaotic pattern because the pavilion facets are not in mirrorlike alignment with each other as they are in precisely cut stones.


If you do have a precisely cut diamond and want to see the arrows-effect you can employ a digital camera. Put it on macro , place the ring in a stationary position and position the camera so the lens is close and parallel with the diamond''s table. The smaller the lens the closer it will need to be…decrease and increase distance until you acquire the look you want. It can take some work to get the lens and table facet absolutely parallel but many Pricescopers have captured their own ''arrows'' by doing this.


If you’re in a diffused light condition and have a steady hand you can also darken the arrows by holding the diamond still and blocking the light coming from the highest angles (directly overhead) with your face. But if your face is all aglow this won’t work.


If there is any tilt to the diamond the effect will not resolve itself.

That''s how I got my arrows.