USE THIS ONE! Ask Dad, Mom, both parents or neither?

[sparklyandsquare]

SORRY! The last option didn''t submit on the last post! Respond to this one instead!
------
I''ve been browsing this forum and have found it interesting how many men ask for the father''s permission/blessing before proposing to their girlfriend. I know it''s tradition, but as a woman it''s one I would be somewhat offended by if my boyfriend followed (I''m not crazy about the origins of the tradition which was bartering for a dowery). I''m not super-feministy, but guess I would expect that my b.f. and I as would discuss getting engaged first and then share the news with my parents. Am I a weirdo?
Your thoughts...

btw, I should mention I''m closer to my mom than my dad, so if my b.f. did ask anyone, I''d want him to ask both (but I''d prefer neither)

 

[Nicrez]

Honest answer: I would NEVER be offended if that happened, but in our case it didn't.

I come from a very old school family. Two parents, both immigrants and very much from the conservative viewpoints. Woman cook for man. Man make money. Man and woman marry and get house. Have kids quickly. Woman stay home.

We weren't exactly like that, as my fiance and I are more modern. We moved in together (BEFORE being married), we got engaged, I don't cook, and I will most likely work from home when I pop out a few little ones. However, he WANTED to ask my parents for their blessing, it just wasn't forthcoming or likely.

My parents had a bit of a problem that my fiance and I have different cultures and religions, so that was made clear quite quickly. I wish he could have gotten it, as I was always told a union would be twice blessed if your parents approved. I was also raised to respect your parents. Sadly, I didn't respect the decision and so we got engaged and only now are seeking that "blessing", after the fact.

Does it diminish my love for him? NO. Does it make my marriage to be less blessed? NO. Does it mean they will never bless our marraige. NO, but sometimes when parents disagree for WHATEVER reason, the blessing tends to come in a quiet form of acceptance and joy when the couple is already together and happy.

In the end, if you don't get the blessing first does it matter? NO. Does it make it more auspicious and show a respectful adherence to tradition and respect to the parents, I think so.

But not everyone is close to their family or traditional, so we all make up our own way as we go. I personally LIKE traditions, and think they make life just a bit more civil and nostalgic and keep us closer to our familial roots. But I have not suffered one bit without ANYONE'S blessing, but it WOULD have been more comforting... Make sense?

 

[sumi]

For me, personally, I would have been offended if my husband had asked my parents' permission before asking me.

My father would have been offended as well. He always pushed my sister and me to buck those traditions that we find offensive. He also taught us to make our own decisions in life. That gesture would have gone against our family ethics.

My husband would have never gone that route anyway (which is one of the reasons why I love him).

HOWEVER, I think it's important to note that I do not looking down on people who find this to be an important tradition for them. I understand and respect the fact that different people have different values. Certain traditions resonate more with different people.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

I agree with what Sumi said...I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were a bad person if you did ask the father.

It's just for me, in this case, the symbolism of two men discussing my future--before me and the one man I'm choosing to marry discuss it--bothers me. I guess that's why I'd be cooler with asking both parents, but don't really think it's necessary.

I was more interested in what the "trend" is...do most people still ask the parents or is it mostly people who consider themselves more traditional? (I'm interested in sociology/anthropology so this kind of stuff fascinates me!)

 

[sumi]

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On 4/16/2004 4:46:47 PM sparklyandsquare wrote:

I agree with what Sumi said...I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were a bad person if you did ask the father.
----------------

I hope you don't think that I thought you were implying anything negative with your post. I didn't get that impression at all. I just wanted to clearly say that I'm respectful of people who don't share my same values. (As I hope they are of me)

 

[glitterata]

Add me to the list of people who would have been offended if he'd asked my parents. It would have seemed disrespectful of them, as well as of me. What were they going to say--"No"? And if they had said no, what would he have done--not married me? Given that there's only one possible answer they could give, it seems insulting to ask the question and pretend to take the answer seriously.

 

[jackieblue]

I guess this is a personal one. Any man who would go to my parents to ask them for permission or their blessing to marry me would be proving he didn't know me well enough to ask anyway.

And I am with the previous poster...I can only imagine what my Dad might say..."Um, I don't know, you are going to have to ask her."

 

[ChooChoo]

I agree with the other ladies - I would be offended if my boyfriend asked my parents, and they would be confused, rather than touched.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

Oh! One last variable...is it more common for younger people (say up to 25) to follow this tradition than people who are getting engaged a little older?

For instance, my sister got engaged at 22 and my BIL asked my father for his "blessing." I've wondered if they would have done that if they had gotten engaged at let's say 27?

 

[fire&ice]

Asking the parents/father for the blessing isn't about you - at all. It is about respecting the fact the man will be entering into your family. Also, *you* may be modern. Doesn't mean that the parents are.

Quite frankly, I am shocked that anyone would be offended. It is a tradition worth keeping. Something to consider - "A son is a son 'til he finds a wife. A daughter is a daughter all her life."

Also, a couple of people who responded are older. If my husband died and I remarried, it would be rather silly for a 45-50 year old to ask for my fathers blessing. But, I would fully expect my to be to talk with them & tell them where we are going & how much he wants me to be part of his life. Whether that be before or after we are engaged. I couldn't imagine being surprised by a proposal at my age.

 

[tomatoe]

I agree with F&I and I am surprised that certain posters would be offended by this tradition. I was always under the impression that this was a Western tradition that showed respect to the girl's parents. If the guy has met the girl's parents before even if they do not give their blessing or say to go ask the girl yourself, it is a nice touch and the parents would more likely be glad that if nothing, the guy has some basic manners and courtesy.

On the other hand, if the parents know nothing of the relationship prior to this. It would be a shocker for everyone involved and a highly unsuitable option to consider. In this case, ask the girl, get her a 'knock-her-socks-off' ring and then let the parents know.

 

[sumi]

Also, a couple of people who responded are older. If my husband died and I remarried, it would be rather silly for a 45-50 year old to ask for my fathers blessing. But, I would fully expect my to be to talk with them & tell them where we are going & how much he wants me to be part of his life. Whether that be before or after we are engaged. I couldn't imagine being surprised by a proposal at my age.



Why wouldn't this approach be just as appropriate for a younger couple? If it really is about accepting a new family member, and not about getting permission to marry, then this seems like a nice compromise. If both partners in the relationship sit down with both sets of parents, it doesn't make the woman feel like chattel and it honors the more old fashioned parents.








----------------[/quote]

 

[fire&ice]

To me, it's irrelavent how the tradition started. What is relavent is asking to be a member of the family. It's common courtesy.

Maybe the disconnect is attaching too much credence/meaning to it's beginnings. I view it more in the light that someone wants to spend the night at our house. If someone just poped over for the night, I still let them in; but, I'd rather someone call ahead & request an invitation for the night. I certainly would think more highly of the person who respected that it *is* my house/my family.

Yeah, I am shocked. It would never dawn on me that someone would be offended by something I see as a courtesy. I just don't see it as asking permission to "take" their daughter. I've never viewed the tradition as such.

And, I wanted to make a more dramatic post because this thread was too heavy leaning towards *not* asking. One better really be sure about not asking. Because it's sure helps to have the support of a family.

 

[sumi]

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On 4/17/2004 3:11:47 PM fire&ice wrote:

I certainly would think more highly of the person who respected that it *is* my house/my family.

But we're talking about *MY* life. It's not my parents' life we're talking about. The marriage is primarily affecting those who are getting married, not the in-laws. Of course my parents' thoughts are important to me. It's not like I'm totally disregarding them or disrespecting them. I think it's important at some point to cut that umbilical cord and live your own life and make your own decisions.


Yeah, I am shocked. It would never dawn on me that someone would be offended by something I see as a courtesy. I just don't see it as asking permission to 'take' their daughter. I've never viewed the tradition as such.

*I think you're responding to part of my previous post that I edited out. I had said that I was shocked that you were shocked. I realized that this may not come across well when written. It was so easy to be misconstrued, so I edited it out. I don't want to offend people for having different ideas than I do. *

And, I wanted to make a more dramatic post because this thread was too heavy leaning towards *not* asking. One better really be sure about not asking. Because it's sure helps to have the support of a family.

Just because you don't ask the parents' permission does not mean you don't have the support of the family. It was no surprise to my family when my husband and I got engaged. We all saw it coming for a long time before if happened. By the time we got engaged, we were already an important part of each other's families.
----------------

Yes, this post is heavily leaning toward not asking. I don't know if that's because it's the more popular option these days, or just coincidence of who chose the answer this post. I'm glad we have both sides of the fence represented here. It's always more interesting to hear both sides the issue. Nobody's right. We just have to do what is right in our lives and our families.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/17/2004 4:19:16 PM sumi wrote:

----------------
On 4/17/2004 3:11:47 PM fire&ice wrote:

I certainly would think more highly of the person who respected that it *is* my house/my family.

But we're talking about *MY* life. It's not my parents' life we're talking about. The marriage is primarily affecting those who are getting married, not the in-laws. Of course my parents' thoughts are important to me. It's not like I'm totally disregarding them or disrespecting them. I think it's important at some point to cut that umbilical cord and live your own life and make your own decisions.


----------------

It has nothing to do with independence. If your not independent from your families (on either side), then you best not get married.

My final comment is that support of both of the individuals parents is important & a plus. This becomes even more apparent when you have children. One has to learn to adjust/adapt to their family. Asking to join the family/having the blessing is a nice gesture. That's it. It's that simple. If it's such an issue, then don't do it. But, it's such a simple thing.

Besides money, family/in-laws are a big reason couples fight.

You make it seem like I am attacking you because your to be didn't do it. That's not the case. I do, however, offer the gentle reader (i.e. grooms to be)a perpective that it's a nice idea.

 

[suchairman]

I agree with "FIRE & ICE" 100%. You can't just look at is as tradition. You should look at it as an act of cortesy and respect. I proposed in November and I chose to have the talk with her parents prior to proposing to her. Like you, she to has a closer relationship with her mother than she does with her father, but at the same time she was very appreciative of the fact that I respected her family enough to consult with them prior to proposing. Her family appreciated it as well. I don't see were it could hurt anything, if anything it would only strengthen this new relationship between the two of you and his future-in-laws.

I was always told "If your going to going to play in someones back yard at least have the descency to knock on the front door first". Therefore, I don't see the problem you have with it. I also agree with what she (FIRE & ICE) said to the affect that age does play a role in it. At a certain point, yes asking permission may be a little outside the norms, but a simple conversation stating the plans or growth of the relationship should suffice.

I say if you don't like it fine, but don't knock him because he respects your parents, if you really think about it, it makes you look like the crazy one, not him.

 

[ChooChoo]

Suchairman,

As much as I disagree with Fire&Ice, I can at least see where she's coming from, and I can say that if a man was proposing to HER, he should talk to her family first.

BUT, if a man was proposing to ME, he should respect my views and ask me first. I want to be the one to TELL my parents (note, I didn't say ASK them, but TELL them) that I am getting married, and I would be upset with him for taking away from my surprise. And as far as blessings go, I would rather we come to both of our parents for the blessing together, after WE have already made the decision to get married.

Don't judge women for having a preference of not being discussed behind their back like a purchase. I understand that to you, there is no sexist connotation, but to us, who are always mindful of the past, when women were actually sold by their parents to their husbands, there is that connotation. If my boyfriend asked anyone other than me first, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

In short, the man should know the woman he is proposing to, and know what she would be comfortable with. F&I would not be happy unless he asked her parents. Fine, if you're proposing to her, ask them. I wouldn't be happy if he did ask. Ergo, if you're proposing to me, don't ask.

So if you don't see "were [sic] it could hurt anything", you obviously haven't taken the time to think about what the person you want to marry wants and believes.

 

[NoviceNYC]

My family really likes the tradition of the man asking for permission. I was of the vocation such as you, where I wanted it to be a huge surprise. I tossed and turned a bit on it and decided that I had to do what made me happy even though my sister (yes I told her first that we were going to get engaged) thought my boyfriend should ask. Needless to say I couldn't hold it in (and the fact we were at the outlets infront of an amazingly gorgeous wedding dress) and told my mom and I wound up getting that "shocked, cry, happy, reaction I wanted". Needless to say I gave him the go ahead to talk with my dad now. Somewhat hypercritical somewhat not. To me I get the best of both worlds I got that surprised momment I will never forget and I get to keep with what my father would like. There can be some middle ground on the "ask the parents". I think you have to find yours, especially if you feel you parents would like for him to ask. Good luck and one thing that you may find comfort in remembering as well, it is about you-this wonderful event-and what you would like, not others. Just what keeps me sain with the planning. Good luck!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/17/2004 5:56:15 PM ChooChoo wrote:

Suchairman,

but to us, who are always mindful of the past, when women were actually sold by their parents to their husbands, there is that connotation. If my boyfriend asked anyone other than me first, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Could this also be a cultural disconnect? The thought of "selling" a daughter is so far removed from my thoughts. But, if I am one or two generations away from this practice, then I would understand the sensitivity - even inappropriateness- of the gesture.

If this is not the issue, than I would seriously consider the gesture. At the end of the day, most couples would have a good sense of the other.

BTW, Suchairman, who I also agree 100% with (except in the exception above), is taken & I have been taken for 20 years - so, I don't think there's gonna be any proposal happenin.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/17/2004 6:03:05 PM NoviceNYC wrote:

Good luck and one thing that you may find comfort in remembering as well, it is about you-this wonderful event-and what you would like, not others. Just what keeps me sain with the planning. Good luck! ----------------

I liked your compromise....but...with the above, Nah, because when you give the go ahead that it's all about you....brides can quickly turn into bridezilla.

Weddings are about give & take. Some decisions will have ramifications far into the future. In the end, you can't be a limp noodle w/ no spine; but, learn how to pick your battles.

 

[glitterata]

It's true, I married when I was older than many of the spring chickens here. But if, even when I was a young thing, a man had asked my parents for my hand in marriage--or even for their blessings, if he asked them before asking me--my parents would have thought it was so weird and outmoded that I'm sure they would have had their doubts about the wisdom of my marrying him.

Fortunately, my husband would never have dreamed of doing such a thing.

I'm sure that if my husband had wanted to marry Fire & Ice, he would have lost points bigtime by not asking her parents. Maybe she wouldn't have wanted to marry him because of it.

As Choo Choo says, you have to pay attention to what the person you're proposing to wants.

I disagree with F&I, though, about whether it's just common courtesy to ask the parents' permission to enter their family. That assumes they have the right to say who enters their family by marrying their daughter. Actually, if she's an adult, they don't have that right. Their daughter does. You don't ask the bride's sister's permission, do you? Why isn't that rude? You're entering her family, too. Or what about the bride's children? You're entering their family, in a big way. Do you ask their permission first? My stepfather didn't ask my permission before marrying my mother. And my stepmother didn't ask my permission before marrying my father. Was that rude of her?

To me, politeness requires informing the parents. Not asking them.

 

[ChooChoo]

I agree with everything you just said Glitterata

Nice to know I'm not "crazy", as Suchairman implied about women who don't want their parents asked! Or, if I'm crazy, at least I'm not crazy alone.

 

[sumi]

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On 4/17/2004 4:45:56 PM fire&ice wrote:


Besides money, family/in-laws are a big reason couples fight.


You make it seem like I am attacking you because your to be didn't do it. That's not the case. I do, however, offer the gentle reader (i.e. grooms to be)a perpective that it's a nice idea. ----------------

If you got the impression that I thought you were attacking me, or if you thought I was attacking you, then I THOROUGHLY apologize. I certainly don't want anyone to think that I am attacking them for having different values than me! I'm one of those people who usually like to agree to disagree. I wanted to hear more about where you were coming from. I know I'm not going to change your mind, and you won't be changing my mind either. I think it's important to understand an opposing viewpoint. (Just for the record, my "to be" and I have been married for quite a while now. This topic doesn't really have anything to do with my current situation).

I think this is a really interesting topic. It was interesting to hear another view because, like you said, up until your comments, they were all very one sided.

 

[fire&ice]

FYI, regarding everyone's post - I knew what was going to transpire. Don't most couples know? How many proposals are really out of the blue w/ the parents out of the loop?

I talked to my mom in length about my to be. I told her we were very serious & going to take the next step. It was the formality of it that made her excited....seeing the ring....hugging my fiance.

Sumi, no harm, no foul. Yes, this has been an interesting thread.....and I still want those traditionalist to join in! Even though my argument is not for the sake of tradition.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/17/2004 6:27:01 PM glitterata wrote:


I disagree with F&I, though, about whether it's just common courtesy to ask the parents' permission to enter their family. That assumes they have the right to say who enters their family by marrying their daughter. ---

You're spinning. It's not about permission persay. It's a courtesy - a head's up. To me, it's the difference of just showing up one day & calling ahead. Also, it was a nice time to have a private talk w/ the father and/or parents. Maybe I'm just close to my family; but, no one knew me better than my parents. And, I did have my boyfriend meet my brother & two sisters. If one of them had concerns, I would have listened.

Yes, maybe I am a traditionalist in the sense that good manners/customs are observed for smooth transition.

 

[Nicrez]

I have to say it's always nice to get along and respect tha family that you are entering. When you marry someone, you marry their family as well. Not everyone is close, but still they are usually AT LEAST at the wedding... If you have kids, they are the grandparents.

If you have almost no contact with your family, I think it's a moot point. Blessing NOT necessary, perhaps it's offensive...? BUT, if you do like your family, and you plan on having them around while you are married, how can it possibly be offensive? I would consider it as a way to start excellent communication with people that are joining your life. It's also an important way to gain their trust and respect and include their blessing and thoughts into your lives, just by opening the channels of communication.

If a woman doesn't have ANY idea that she is going to be getting engaged, then there is most likely going to be a problem there. IMO, if you have not discussed the whole getting married, kids, family, finances, you MAY have some serious issues to work out if you say yes, without having those talks FIRST! Just me, but I knew, I told my parents it was serious, and we did it without blessing, but I would have been a bit happier to know it was blessed first.

And by the way, my sister was 27 when she got engaged, and her husband DID ask my father. My brother who got engaged at 23, and his fiancee was 19 DIDN'T. However, her parents are in another country, and he didn't even tell OUR parents until he actually did it. So, it depends on the person and how they (the person asking) values the communication with their in-laws.

Just my $.02...

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/18/2004 11:34:07 AM Nicrez wrote:


If you have almost no contact with your family, I think it's a moot point. Blessing NOT necessary, perhaps it's offensive...? BUT, if you do like your family, and you plan on having them around while you are married, how can it possibly be offensive? I would consider it as a way to start excellent communication with people that are joining your life. It's also an important way to gain their trust and respect and include their blessing and thoughts into your lives, just by opening the channels of communication.

Just my $.02...----------------

And, exactly my 2 cents as well. Maybe I'm viewed as a traditionalist; but, in actuality, I'm a pragmatist. Sometimes traditions are traditions because they are simply practical. And what Nic wrote is the way I view "the talk, the blessing, the whatever" in today's world.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

I have to run out the door in a minute but wanted to respond to Tomatoe's post:

"I was always under the impression that this was a Western tradition that showed respect to the girl's parents."

In fact, the tradition was not about being repectful but about negotiating a contract. I've included this excerpt from www.digitalhistory.uh.edu:

------------------------------------------------
"In seventeenth and early eighteenth century New England, courtship was not simply a personal, private matter. The law gave parents "the care and power...for the disposing of their Children in Marriage" and it was expected that they would take an active role overseeing their child's choice of a spouse. A father in Puritan New England had a legal right to determine which men would be allowed to court his daughters and a legal responsibility to give or withhold his consent from a child's marriage. A young man who courted a woman without her father's permission might be sued for inveigling the woman's affections.

Parental involvement in courtship was expected because marriage was not merely an emotional relationship between individuals but also a property arrangement among families. A young man was expected to bring land or some other form of property to a marriage while a young woman was expected to bring a dowry worth about half as much."
------------------------------------------------

I understand that many people don't care where the tradition came from, and thus are not offended by it. I personally don't like to continue traditions I find sexist, racist, etc. just "because they're tradition" even if they've been watered down (i.e. parents can't actually stop you from marrying now).

I'm just agreeing with other posters who've said you need to know your g.f. and her family to know if this will be welcomed or not. My main concern is that there are so many "ask the dad" posts here, and no one ever asks the guy posting if he's SURE his g.f. would prefer this. In fact, there are many people who post that it's a "must-do." I want to encourage guys to make sure they at least *think* about this because, quite frankly, many guys *wouldn't* think of the possibly sexist connotations because, well, they're Men! It doesn't affect them...I'm not knocking men--I'm just saying that unless they realize it's something that some women (and even some families) would NOT like, and they read these posts saying it's a "must-do" they might offend someone without realizing it could be an issue.

Also, Re: Suchairman's comment that "I was always told "If your going to going to play in someones back yard at least have the descency to knock on the front door first."' Your backyard is *property*-your daughter is not (or at least not anymore). I think it's interesting that most the analogies that have been used in this forum ("it's my house/my family) are comparing daughter's to a possession.

One last thing, someone (don't have time to check who) said that it's just establishing good communication between you & the family. How is it any less "good communication" to discuss it with the family AFTER the proposal? It really has nothing to do with communication, it has to do with a tradition that some people equate with good manners. That's fine, but don't mix the two concepts. (Would it be "good communication" for a husband to discuss having children with his father-in-law before his wife? And if not, how is this different except that this is a tradition?)

Okay, maybe more later...gotta split!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 4/18/2004 3:23:27 PM sparklyandsquare wrote:

I think it's interesting that most the analogies that have been used in this forum ('it's my house/my family) are comparing daughter's to a possession.

One last thing, someone (don't have time to check who) said that it's just establishing good communication between you & the family. How is it any less 'good communication' to discuss it with the family AFTER the proposal? It really has nothing to do with communication, it has to do with a tradition that some people equate with good manners. That's fine, but don't mix the two concepts. (Would it be 'good communication' for a husband to discuss having children with his father-in-law before his wife? And if not, how is this different except that this is a tradition?)

Okay, maybe more later...gotta split!----------------

How is the world can you construe the analogy to calling first before staying overnight to be equilvant to a daughter being a possession? It's the son "to be" that is entering into *their* family. Knocking on the door before barging in is just good form.

Yes, I consider it good communication to communicate before a done deal. In most aspects of my life, it is more practical to be pro-active rather than passive.

To each his own. And, I certainly see the heads-up to know that your G.F. would not be offended. I never would have given it a thought to be offended. I don't consider myself to be part of 17c New England.

Clearly, we are not going to agree. But, I ackowledge that there does exits women who find it offensive. I am still unclear as to why; so, that's probably why I think it's good form & a very nice gesture. Wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[ChooChoo]

F&I - a man DOES "knock before barging in" - by asking the DAUGHTER if she wants to marry him. If I decide that a man is going to be my husband, I decide that he is going to enter my family. I don't feel that I need my parents' consent to give him that permission. Just as many other ladies pointed out, my kids are also going to enter the family, and I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn't ask my parents whether it's appropriate for us to have them. Some decisions are just between two people, and I believe that marriage should be one of them.

Of course, I am assuming that the daughter knows how her family feels about her fiance. I will say that, if he has never met her parents before, MEETING them before proposing to their daughter, and making sure that there is compatibility, is a good idea. But I certainly don't feel that, after dating a woman for a long time and already knowing her family, a man needs to ask them for permission or blessing (or give them any type of advance warning) before proposing to her. She will factor in how her family feels anyway, before giving her answer.