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Urgent Help with choosing between a OEC & Transitional diamond

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Oct 3, 2018
Messages
95
My fiance and I are looking for a ring with antique diamonds to use when we create my engagement ring.

**This is a long post, but I thought to give as much info as possible to aid any guidance given to us!**

We would love some guidance to help us decide between the two rings at we are looking at - are the diamonds of an acceptable specification, and are worth spending his money on as we have a limited budget
  • I’ve got medium sized hands, and the dainty diamonds we can afford look too small scale on my hands. So we are looking into the sizable antique rings.
  • We have a limited budget because:
  1. we are having a destination wedding (we’re getting married in Jamaica November 2019)

  2. I’m allergic to 18C gold, and can only have platinum, which will cost £1000 to reset any ring we find.
  • We’re looking at antique diamonds for ethical reasons, and because I am drawn to the idea of having unique hand cut diamonds. Err, and because I like bigger stones (!) than we can afford in virgin diamonds!
So our budget is a total of £3,500 (£2500 for the diamonds, £1000 for the setting)

SO, ONTO THE RINGS

RING 1: Ive attached images

https://www.pauljamesjewellers.com/product/diamond-crossover-cluster-ring
Spec: Diamond Cluster Ring OEC cut, 18c gold, Spec: 1.97 Total weight. Price £2600.00
1. I fell in love with this 50's looking style ring, and its chunky round OEC's, and love the setting shape too (photos attached)

2. We had planned to have this setting made in platinum (with some refining of the prongs, and the setting's weight )

3. I am concerned about the value of these stones because though they face up white, the colour is M and I don't know if this diminishes the value.

4. Under a loop, they looked pretty clean, but the diamonds looked a bit dark when I looked at in shaded daylight, and when I held it up in the sunlight against a modern round cut diamond. Which made me a bit sad…

5. I found with the OEC diamonds, in normal indoor lighting, and outdoor shade the OEC ring lost its scintillation. It appeared a bit dark in comparison. But is that possibly because they’re OEC diamonds?

6. We've negotiated the jeweller down to £2600, from £2950 for the ring

AFTER 15 HOURS OF RESEARCHING ONLINE I CAME ACROSS RING 2:

RING 2:

https://www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/1-75-ct-Diamond-and-18-ct-White-Gold-Cluster-Ring-Vintage-Circa-1950-309p7484.htm

Spec: Vintage 1.75-carat multi-diamond ring in 18-carat white gold.
Cut: Transitional, modern brilliant round
Esiimated weight of diamonds; Feature 0.65ct, supporting; 4 x 0.10ct and 10 x 0.07ct
Colour (average grades) G/H Clarity (average grades) SI2/P1
Content (total) 1.75 carats
Price £2650.00 (before negotiation)

**The plan now is to buy this ring, and rebuild the engagement ring in a Platinum copy of Ring 1, but need some advice on selecting the correct ring for its diamonds!

1. In the photos and video of the ring 2 (see the link), OMG, the stones look so so white and very sparkly compared to the OEC.
Q: Is this just how OEC’s are? Online, I have seen brighter ones, but they looked pumped up with artificial lighting!

2. I was veering towards this ring and even though the diamonds are smaller, for its brighter stones, because of their brightness of a G colour stones.
Q: Do you think this is a good compromise

3. The spec above looks like they may be inclusions. To see them, I will have to buy the ring online to inspect it.
4. Jeweller for Ring 2 says the cut is: Transitional, modern brilliant round.
Q: Is there such a thing? I think he means ‘Transitional brilliant round’ but will ask him about this.

Q. Do you think that these transitional-cut diamond may produce some of the subtle brilliance if I'm after when in normal indoor lighting?

Q: So with all this in mind, do you think paying £2,600 for Ring 2’s diamonds is a better investment than buying Ring 1 as £2600 for its diamonds?

We are open to any advice, please! Thank in advance for being so awesome!!
 

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Lovesparklesparle

Shiny_Rock
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Jun 9, 2017
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388
For me personally it’s a no brainer. Ring 1. I really like it.

Ring 2 not eye clean and the cut is not great.

I am a novice though, the pros will chime in I’m sure.
 

KKJohnson

Brilliant_Rock
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To me judging from the photos I would pick the OECs as they are more unique. I also agree I don’t like the clarity rating of the transitional, is there a return policy if you don’t end up liking the transitional?
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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For me personally it’s a no brainer. Ring 1. I really like it.

Ring 2 not eye clean and the cut is not great.

I am a novice though, the pros will chime in I’m sure.
Thanks for your quick reply!
Yes, I love the shape and look of Ring 1 - this is why we are going to have it remade... Is it the shape of the ring, or is it the diamonds you like in Ring 1?
 

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CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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To me judging from the photos I would pick the OECs as they are more unique. I also agree I don’t like the clarity rating of the transitional, is there a return policy if you don’t end up liking the transitional?
Yes, there is a 14 day return policy on Ring 2. The photos of OEC's are in Jewellery shop lighting so I thought it may be much darker in ordinary light. They are really pretty when they flash.
 

foxinsox

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I love your inspiration ring and think those OECs look pretty good even for M. I think if you love the chunk of the OECs, you aren't going to get that with your potential donor stones and I wouldn't buy that ring as a result.
They don't look like transitionals but more like your classic MRB from the 50s with big tables, low crowns, lots of white splintery white return but not big flashes or much coloured light.
Who would be making your copy of the ring? Could you ask them to source you OECs in the right size/proportions? Failing that, could you contact someone who's an old cut specialist like Old World Diamonds, Jewels by Grace or Love Affair Diamonds to ask them if they have some parcels of smaller stones you could use to make it properly? I think it would probably end up about the same price and it would make for a better ring.
I think David Klass would be able to do a great copy at a good price and may also be able to source the stones too.
 

Lovesparklesparle

Shiny_Rock
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Thanks for your quick reply!
Yes, I love the shape and look of Ring 1 - this is why we are going to have it remade... Is it the shape of the ring, or is it the diamonds you like in Ring 1?

The design of the ring is totally up to you, and it doesn’t matter what I think :) my comments are entirely about the stones.

I have a little .5ct M with brown tones and it’s just adorable.

How big is that centre stone?
 

KKJohnson

Brilliant_Rock
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These two types of cuts are just going to perform differently and it’s very taste specific, it does seem like color may be an issue for you as well.

Also as far you asking if the M color diminishing the value of the OECs, warmer colored diamonds were more common for the time period so it doesn’t effect the pricing as much as color does in modern cuts today. The reason is most people prefer warmer cuts for the OECs
 

stonewell

Brilliant_Rock
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Of the two options, I would choose the first ring. The stones in ring 2 do not appear to be transitional cuts, imho. However, I second @foxinsox in inquiring if your jeweler can source the stones for you. If not, the vendors listed are fantastic sources for quality old cuts. One other one to consider is Ivy & Rose. Ilya is fantastic with working on a limited budget too.
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Oct 3, 2018
Messages
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I love your inspiration ring and think those OECs look pretty good even for M. I think if you love the chunk of the OECs, you aren't going to get that with your potential donor stones and I wouldn't buy that ring as a result.
They don't look like transitionals but more like your classic MRB from the 50s with big tables, low crowns, lots of white splintery white return but not big flashes or much coloured light.
Who would be making your copy of the ring? Could you ask them to source you OECs in the right size/proportions? Failing that, could you contact someone who's an old cut specialist like Old World Diamonds, Jewels by Grace or Love Affair Diamonds to ask them if they have some parcels of smaller stones you could use to make it properly? I think it would probably end up about the same price and it would make for a better ring.
I think David Klass would be able to do a great copy at a good price and may also be able to source the stones too.
Such a generous answer, thank you.

The jeweller with Ring 1, has a master goldsmith who would make the copy. I would love to work with Old World Diamonds, Jewels by Grace or Love Affair Diamonds , but alas, I live in London, so that isnt an option, though. I suppose I could try, but customs & duty would really sting me out of our budget. However, I can always enqire. BTW, I LOVE jewels by Grace. Such I candy, make me want to get on A PLANE!!
Re making a copy, do jewellers need to see the original inspiration ring? As this is with the jeweller, its not mine.
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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The design of the ring is totally up to you, and it doesn’t matter what I think my:) comments are entirely about the stones.

I have a little.5ct M with brown tones and it’s just adorable.

How big is that centre stone?
Thanks - it's the stones, that is what I was trying to discern :)
The centre stone is about 0.7-0.8mm. Pretty sizable.

The jeweller says the diamonds face up white well, and I agree, they did in the shop.
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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These two types of cuts are just going to perform differently and it’s very taste specific, it does seem like color may be an issue for you as well.

Also as far you asking if the M color diminishing the value of the OECs, warmer colored diamonds were more common for the time period so it doesn’t effect the pricing as much as color does in modern cuts today. The reason is most people prefer warmer cuts for the OECs
Cheers, that's great to hear about the colour ,not affecting the value. I suppose I've been judging the diamond based on modern grading, and G being better / holding more value than M.

Question: Does the colour make the overall ring darker? I've just read that internal darkness may just be the inside of the diamond reflecting the internal facets, and the environment around it.
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks - it's the stones, that is what I was trying to discern :)
The centre stone is about 0.7-0.8mm. Pretty sizable.

The jeweller says the diamonds face up white well, and I agree, they did in the shop.
OECs do face up white very well even in lower colours. Re getting a copy made, if you've got a few pictures, they could do a CAD to fill in the gaps on the parts you don't have pictures of or want to change. It's a very cool ring! I can see why you like it.
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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Of the two options, I would choose the first ring. The stones in ring 2 do not appear to be transitional cuts, imho. However, I second @foxinsox in inquiring if your jeweler can source the stones for you. If not, the vendors listed are fantastic sources for quality old cuts. One other one to consider is Ivy & Rose. Ilya is fantastic with working on a limited budget too.
Good point about jeweller sourcing stones. And also about the non-transitional stones too.

I think we have limited amounts in the U.K. but will ask. I love the products on Ivy & Rose too. Wish they were a bit closer though, as it is an issue not being i the same country as the supplier.
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Oct 3, 2018
Messages
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Thanks - it's the stones, that is what I was trying to discern :)
The centre stone is about 0.7-0.8mm. Pretty sizable.

The jeweller says the diamonds face up white well, and I agree, they did in the shop.
Oh, and I'm getting the basic evaluation on Ring 1 today. I'll keep you posted :)
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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OECs do face up white very well even in lower colours. Re getting a copy made, if you've got a few pictures, they could do a CAD to fill in the gaps on the parts you don't have pictures of or want to change. It's a very cool ring! I can see why you like it.
Thanks, I do love the design! Really suits my aesthetics.

I'll be wearing it as my engagement ring with my wedding band on the other hand, as I feel trying to make or find a matching ring would distract from the design.
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
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Good point about jeweller sourcing stones. And also about the non-transitional stones too.

I think we have limited amounts in the U.K. but will ask. I love the products on Ivy & Rose too. Wish they were a bit closer though, as it is an issue not being i the same country as the supplier.
You might be pleasantly surprised if the jeweller you're working with has any sort of estate jewellery in their store. As another poster found recently with a small estate diamond she bought, they're not always expensive in the sizes you'd want for your satellite stones. And given that many jewellers still see OECs and other old cuts purely in terms of their MRB cut possibility, they might have ones lying around that they'd be able to sell you for very little.
I am obviously assuming you do want OECs of course!
 

stonewell

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
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Good point about jeweller sourcing stones. And also about the non-transitional stones too.

I think we have limited amounts in the U.K. but will ask. I love the products on Ivy & Rose too. Wish they were a bit closer though, as it is an issue not being i the same country as the supplier.
I totally understand. Unfortunately, I’m not familiar with any specific vendors in the UK. :( This maybe a total long shot, but there’s a seller on eBay based in the UK whom I’ve purchased antique pieces with really nice old cuts. It may be worth reaching out to her to see if she’s able to help or direct you to more local options.

https://ebay.com/usr/clares1225
 

missyminx

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
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67DC70AF-9290-46F3-A218-294BCF4CB1BD.jpeg @CloverBuddha

Would something like this be up your alley? It is platinum. The seller is based in the UK and it is £3,500, so within your budget. The ring is a size N.

It is not an OEC but it has a small cutlet... maybe a transitional?
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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67DC70AF-9290-46F3-A218-294BCF4CB1BD.jpeg @CloverBuddha

Would something like this be up your alley? It is platinum. The seller is based in the UK and it is £3,500, so within your budget. The ring is a size N.

It is not an OEC but it has a small cutlet... maybe a transitional?
OMG - You literally took my breath away! What a pretty ring! Thanks for taking the time to research it for me, kind soul :saint:

I'm set on rebuilding the cluster ring (Ring 1) in platinum; but can you share the link to the source, so I can check them out? Thanks :love:
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Oct 3, 2018
Messages
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I totally understand. Unfortunately, I’m not familiar with any specific vendors in the UK. :( This maybe a total long shot, but there’s a seller on eBay based in the UK whom I’ve purchased antique pieces with really nice old cuts. It may be worth reaching out to her to see if she’s able to help or direct you to more local options.

https://ebay.com/usr/clares1225
Thanks, Stonewell, I'm afraid the URL link doesn't take me to Clare's page. Do you have another reference or a product which I can then 'ask the seller' to link with her? Many thanks
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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You might be pleasantly surprised if the jeweller you're working with has any sort of estate jewellery in their store. As another poster found recently with a small estate diamond she bought, they're not always expensive in the sizes you'd want for your satellite stones. And given that many jewellers still see OECs and other old cuts purely in terms of their MRB cut possibility, they might have ones lying around that they'd be able to sell you for very little.
I am obviously assuming you do want OECs of course!
Wow - she got lucky with her mom's diamond!
My ring (yes, I'm invested!!) is an estate ring, owned by a French lady, and has a delightful story (I'll share below)
 

KKJohnson

Brilliant_Rock
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Messages
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Cheers, that's great to hear about the colour ,not affecting the value. I suppose I've been judging the diamond based on modern grading, and G being better / holding more value than M.

Question: Does the colour make the overall ring darker? I've just read that internal darkness may just be the inside of the diamond reflecting the internal facets, and the environment around it.
The color of the metal or the color of the diamonds? I had my marquise reset from 14k yellow gold into a head that has 18k yellow gold, this brightened up the diamond and the setting appears very crisp. Using a metal color that will compliment the diamonds natural color can make a very big visual impact, if i were you I would also consider the 18k golds for the reset as they are richer in color (platinum will dull over time but it’s very sturdy). So yes, the current setting could be affecting the diamonds or even the prongs could be playing a part but that’s an unknown since they are still in the setting.
 

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CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Just heard back from the Jewellers Valuator
Further to our conversation;
  • Centre Old Mine cut diamond-weight approx. 0.97 carats.
  • Assessed colour and clarity –J/K colour, clarity VS2-SI1
  • Ten smaller old mine cut diamonds totalling approx. 1 carat of similar clarity and colours from I/J to J/K.
  • I can assure you there are no chips or nicks on any of the diamonds. (end)
My first thoughts were: She doesn't know the diamonds are OEC rounds! but all the better for me!

I've looked on Old world Diamonds and most .96 - .99 carat one come up to about £2,500, so it seems I am getting a bargain, (the chunky 18c gold ring, and additional diamonds for £2,600 ($3,400) considering the 10 satellite stones included in the price.

I mentioned to her I believed the value of the ring was in the central stone, and didn't think the satellite stones have much value.
This is because I've heard small diamonds like that aren't very valuable and do not consider the Total Caret weight.
Q: is this also the case with OEC's?

Q. The setting is a dye cast 18c gold, and wasn't made custom.
Is it worth negotiating further on the cost due to the value of the setting? I have got a feeling that the gold may offer some leverage for negotiations!

The lovely historical story about this ring:
It belonged to the mother of the lady whom the dealer bought a job-lot from. The mother was French. She passed away, and the daughter was preparing to sell the house, so while moved around some furniture, she found a loose floorboard, and took a peek below: to find her mother's treasure trove of jewels! She had Boucheron Deco earrings, and a huge 5ct Aquamarine cocktail ring and hidden along with these great finds was Ring 1 - my future engagement ring, thanks to the help of you all!

So the ring I've found really is a treasure! (warm fuzzy feeling inside)



it actually was found treasure:
 

CloverBuddha

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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The color of the metal or the color of the diamonds? I had my marquise reset from 14k yellow gold into a head that has 18k yellow gold, this brightened up the diamond and the setting appears very crisp. Using a metal color that will compliment the diamonds natural color can make a very big visual impact, if i were you I would also consider the 18k golds for the reset as they are richer in color (platinum will dull over time but it’s very sturdy). So yes, the current setting could be affecting the diamonds or even the prongs could be playing a part but that’s an unknown since they are still in the setting.
I meant the colour of the diamonds. Unfortunately, I'm allergic to gold, even 18c gold, so will have to have the ring made up in platinum. Which I know isn't ideal for making warm stones whiter... oh well.
I'm hoping that the platinum dulling will be concealed due to the open plan of the setting, and hopefully, the prongs will not suffer too much, and protects the pretty, French OEC 1ct diamond in a mid-century modern setting that I never dreamt I would have!

Mid-century modern is my era of choice, having collected furniture from that era (Eames Chairs, G-plan tables, Cado modular, furniture (below) and started from when I was a Fine Art student 20 years ago. Now my furniture collection has considerable value (compared to what I paid) and I'm ever so pleased to be adding my engagement ring to my collection!


 

KKJohnson

Brilliant_Rock
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I think since the jeweler has already discounted the price going back and renegotiating can seem rude, just because you don’t place value on the setting doesn’t mean someone else won’t. You have already priced out what a center stone that size would cost and found it comparable, why do you feel that the other diamonds don’t hold any value? Also I’m not sure why you want all of them to be valuable (as that would only drive up the cost for you)
 

missyminx

Shiny_Rock
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OMG - You literally took my breath away! What a pretty ring! Thanks for taking the time to research it for me, kind soul :saint:

I'm set on rebuilding the cluster ring (Ring 1) in platinum; but can you share the link to the source, so I can check them out? Thanks :love:
Here you go.
Plenty of coverage and a 1.3ct diamond in platinum for £3,500!
https://www.dealbetweenusjewellery.co.uk/shop/art-deco-1-35ct-diamond-platinum-engagement-ring-in-antique-box/

Please post your reset in platinum! I vote for ring 1 too, it’s gorgeous!
 

stonewell

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Thanks, Stonewell, I'm afraid the URL link doesn't take me to Clare's page. Do you have another reference or a product which I can then 'ask the seller' to link with her? Many thanks
Ahh, sorry for that. Hopefully this link to one of her listings will work:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exceptional-1-1-14-carat-old-cut-diamond-solitaire-18-carat-gold-ring/142912270025?hash=item21463c2ec9:g:WakAAOSwS3dbe~TP

It does appear though that the ring you’ve already found is making your heart sing. I love the back story and knowing the provenance of a stone or piece - it’s what draws me to old cuts more than others.

To answer your questions, I will always attempt to negotiate. The worst they can say is “No.” However, I don’t think placing value on whether a piece is custom made or the assigning lower value of smaller diamonds will be effective. TBH, parcels of smaller old cuts, if cut well, match and/or can be grouped in an appealing manner can actually be quite expensive.
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
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@CloverBuddha I’m slightly confused now though - are you still wanting to replicate that ring in platinum with other stones or are you going to buy that ring and remake it in platinum?
 

tlfiore

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Ahh, sorry for that. Hopefully this link to one of her listings will work:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exceptional-1-1-14-carat-old-cut-diamond-solitaire-18-carat-gold-ring/142912270025?hash=item21463c2ec9:g:WakAAOSwS3dbe~TP

It does appear though that the ring you’ve already found is making your heart sing. I love the back story and knowing the provenance of a stone or piece - it’s what draws me to old cuts more than others.
@stonewell Positively YES!

@CloverBuddha all I can say is wow, what a beautiful ring. And although not my period and not my style (I like stuff somewhat older), I think the setting and the ring as they stand are gorgeous.

I hate seeing precious old things get dismantled and cast aside. I've refrained from doing so many times and to me, there is zero way the antiquity, patina and aura of an antique "replica" setting comes close to matching the aesthetics of an original old setting...no way...it just doesn't happen.

IMHO, if an old setting is in great condition, that is the structural integrity is good, and the piece has been well loved, well to me it is a true jewel, a real find.

If this woman kept her jewels in the floor-boards of her home and owned those earrings shown up-thread, all I can say is WOW! I've viewed your ring several times and it is pristine! The ring looks like it was rarely worn.

And the jeweler has it inaccurately described with brilliant cut diamonds. Clearly, the diamonds are divine OECs...really precious.

The entire script makes for a lovely story, although many antique & vintage sellers use and occasionally embellish such stories to promote sales. My jeweler, who ends up with the headache of fixing, sizing and restoring my pre-loved pieces says, "I'm a fool & a sucker because I always overpay for the sentimental value of a piece." Sentimental value, that's what he calls it. But your jeweler sounds credible and the other jewels allegedly purchased from this woman's daughter lead me to believe the woman had an eye for gorgeous quality stuff!

The ring is beautiful and the diamonds are gorgeous! I can see someone like David Klass creating a somewhat more refined ring utilizing the initial setting as inspiration.

It sounds like your already love this ring.

Congratulations on your upcoming engagement!
 
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