Update... possiblity of NC looming again

[Becky P]

So, ever since the big talk a month or so ago, things have been going really well with bf. He kept bringing up and dropping the idea of moving to NC, and I kept re-stating, I would absolutely 100% go with you, but only if we are engaged. Well, for the past week, he has been at his job''s annual conference, and there were many discussions about him relocating from Pittsburgh to take over the North Carolina territory. Professionally, this would be a great move for him and would put him in a position to potentially take on a management role after a few years in NC. Professionally, everything says, move to NC!!! But, he says, there''s so much to work out personally. First, he''d have to sell his place (or rent it out). Secondly, he doesn''t want to leave me here, but he''s not ready to propose. I said, it''s fine if he wants to move first and then when he''s ready to propose he can and then I''ll move down there. I don''t want to force him into doing something he''s not ready for. He continues to say, I''ll just know when I''m ready and when I''m ready I''ll propose. I ask about a timeline, and he says, nothing has changed from our last conversation. So, I asked, you have no idea if it would be 3 months, 6 months, a year... He said, I don''t want to give a timeline because then it''s a deadline and I''m forced to do something by that date. So, I said, well, I guess I''m just worried that if you don''t know it''s because we''re not right for each other. He said, no, that''s definitely not it. Then, he (sheepishly) asks, can we just be pre-engaged? I''m like, well, what would that be like? Would you give me your fraternity pin? And he laughs. (mind you, he''s 29. 30 in Feb!)

So, the kicker is that I finally got him to tell me what he thought it would be like in NC, and he said that we would get 2 different places!! I mean, come on! How much of a whipped dog does he think I am? First, he wants me to move to NC without a proposal AND he wants me to get my own place! I mean, that''s just ridiculous in my mind. He said that he doesn''t want us to live together because his parents would totally not approve. He said it''s a cultural thing and I just need to be respectful of that. So, I asked, if we were engaged, what do you think your parents would say, and he said he didn''t know. So, he hasn''t even discussed the move or anything with his parents yet, who would normally be the first people he talked to about it, so it''s a good sign that he''s talking to me first... So, I told him that maybe he should talk to his parents and see what they would think about the whole thing and that''s where we left it. But, I am STEAMING mad. I mean, how could he even think that I would consider moving (for the second time!) with no engagement and we''d both be getting our own places!!!

 

[KimberlyH]

Becky,

I am so sorry things aren''t going as you had hoped regarding NC and moving as an engaged couple. And I am SO proud of you for sticking to your guns, so to speak. What a tough spot you are in, and how easy it would be to just go along with his wishes and do things his way to keep the peace. That you realize the end result would be your needs being ignored is so admirable.

I truly believe we only deserve to be treated as we allow people to treat us; I also believe we teach people how to treat us. These are difficult lessons to learn in life and it sounds like you have it figured out.

 

[robbie3982]

Wow, I would be mad too! It sounds like your boy is not thinking clearly. He can''t possibly think that you would rearrange your whole life to move 8 hours away and then live in separate places! Good job standing up for yourself, though.

 

[ladykemma]

Date: 11/6/2006 2:41:55 PM
Author:Becky P
So, ever since the big talk a month or so ago, things have been going really well with bf. He kept bringing up and dropping the idea of moving to NC, and I kept re-stating, I would absolutely 100% go with you, but only if we are engaged. Well, for the past week, he has been at his job's annual conference, and there were many discussions about him relocating from Pittsburgh to take over the North Carolina territory. Professionally, this would be a great move for him and would put him in a position to potentially take on a management role after a few years in NC. Professionally, everything says, move to NC!!! But, he says, there's so much to work out personally. First, he'd have to sell his place (or rent it out). Secondly, he doesn't want to leave me here, but he's not ready to propose. I said, it's fine if he wants to move first and then when he's ready to propose he can and then I'll move down there. I don't want to force him into doing something he's not ready for. He continues to say, I'll just know when I'm ready and when I'm ready I'll propose. I ask about a timeline, and he says, nothing has changed from our last conversation. So, I asked, you have no idea if it would be 3 months, 6 months, a year... He said, I don't want to give a timeline because then it's a deadline and I'm forced to do something by that date. So, I said, well, I guess I'm just worried that if you don't know it's because we're not right for each other. He said, no, that's definitely not it. Then, he (sheepishly) asks, can we just be pre-engaged? I'm like, well, what would that be like? Would you give me your fraternity pin? And he laughs. (mind you, he's 29. 30 in Feb!)

So, the kicker is that I finally got him to tell me what he thought it would be like in NC, and he said that we would get 2 different places!! I mean, come on! How much of a whipped dog does he think I am? First, he wants me to move to NC without a proposal AND he wants me to get my own place! I mean, that's just ridiculous in my mind. He said that he doesn't want us to live together because his parents would totally not approve. He said it's a cultural thing and I just need to be respectful of that. So, I asked, if we were engaged, what do you think your parents would say, and he said he didn't know. So, he hasn't even discussed the move or anything with his parents yet, who would normally be the first people he talked to about it, so it's a good sign that he's talking to me first... So, I told him that maybe he should talk to his parents and see what they would think about the whole thing and that's where we left it. But, I am STEAMING mad. I mean, how could he even think that I would consider moving (for the second time!) with no engagement and we'd both be getting our own places!!!

uhhh, haven't we heard this before?

this is crazy making.

this is old behavior - here is one of your old posts. so how is this day different from that day?

Becky's Post No Marriage Momentum
Hi all! So, I've been reading the board for a while now, post occassionally, but I'm needing some girl power now more then ever. So, here's our story in a nutshell.

We met in college and dated for a year. The week I met him, I called my mom and told her I met the man I was gonna marry. We broke up after 1 yr. because we were in different places (he was graduating and looking into med schools, and I was younger, partying, and distracting him from studying). We didn't keep in touch after he graduated, although I always wondered what had happened to the love of my life. Fast forward 4 years, and I get home from work one day to a message on my answering machine from him saying that he was in town training for a new job and did I want to get together for dinner to catch up? I called back, we went to dinner, the rest is history. We've been dating since the end of Oct. in 2002. We were long distance from Chicago to Pittsburgh until June 2003 when I moved to New Mexico. We did New Mexico to Pittsburgh long distance until I finished my master's in Dec. 2005. So, I've been living here in Pittsburgh 9 months now.

We had the marriage talk in June 2005. He said he definitely saw himself marrying me, but he just wasn't ready. I let things simmer and didn't really bring it back up - we were still across the country. We finally decided that we needed to be in the same city to see if things were really gonna work out, and my job was more transferrable, thus I moved. In Feb. 2006, we had a drunken marriage talk, so that doesn't really count. Basically, if I bring up marriage, he changes the subject as fast as he can. He's always been the type to take a LONG time making decisions - even silly ones like the countertop color (took 8 months!), so I'm very aware that this is going to take time, but we've been freakin' dating for almost 4 yrs this time, plus 1 year the first time, so seriously how long am I gonna have to wait!?!

So, he cooks me dinner nearly every night at his house (oh yeah, did I mention that I got my own place when I moved here? yeah, we don't live together - neither of us believe in living together until marriage). One day in June after he cooked dinner and we spent a wonderful evening together, I paused the Tivo, and told him that I needed to ask a favor from him. I told him that I loved him with all my heart and that I see the two of us spending our lives together. And, that I knew he needed more time, but that I needed to know how much more time he was gonna need. I told him that I wanted him to take the next 1-2 weeks to think about where things stood and then for him to get back to me. Knowing that he wasn't going to bring it back up, 2 weeks to the day (early July), I brought it up again. I asked if he had been thinking about what I'd asked him. He said yes. We had a serious heart to heart - the longest discussion we'd ever had about marriage. He said he definitely sees himself marrying me, but he's really not ready yet and he doesn't know when he will be. I told him that I wanted to respect his need for time and the need to be ready, but that I wasn't going to wait forever.

Well, we're now about 2 1/2 months since that last discussion, and there has been no change. So, I've realized that he just doesn't get how important this is to me and that he is beginning to get to the point where he could really end up loosing me. I want to give him every chance in the world, but I am unwilling to wait indefinitely. So, I've decided that I need to start working in things every chance I can. The first chance was this weekend. He was telling me about a bonus he just got for work, and I jokingly said, oh yeah, maybe part of that can go towards the ring fund. He was like, ring? what ring? I mean, he was totally dumbfounded and had NO idea what I was referring to. So, I said, a ring, you know an engagement ring so that we can get married.

So, there is NO marriage momentum here ladies, and I need to create some! My thought is, in addition to working in things during conversation is also to send him pics of rings I like. But, I realized that I hate the way most rings look on my fingers, so I think this week a girlfriend and I are gonna go out and look at rings so I can see what shape/style I like best. Then, I can send him pics of ones I know I like. Does this sound too crazy? The last thing I wanna do is scare him off! But, he's seriously gotta start considering this because I'm not just gonna be waiting forever waiting for him to figure out when he's ready to get married if he's not even thinking about it.

The other thing is that, I moved here so we could see if things would work out, and they obviously are working out. So, I don't understand why he's not ready to move forward. I feel like, to be fair, I've got to give him at least until I've lived here for one year, which will be the end of Dec. 2006. In my head, I've decided that if he hasn't proposed by March 31, 2007, then I'm breaking up with him - for those of you who have read Closing the Deal, I'll be pulling the bluff. And, if it does end up being the end, then I know I'm strong enough to be okay with that. But, to be honest, I really don't want to have to get to that point. I don't want to have to break up with him just to see if he'll ask me to marry him. I want to do it on his own!

Well, this is super long, I know. Thanks for reading ladies! I guess I'd just like an outside opinion of what ya'll think. Is there something I'm missing here? Any suggestions? ideas? ways other people were able to continue bringing the idea of marriage up without driving their boyfriends crazy?

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 11/6/2006 2:41:55 PM
Author:Becky P
Then, he (sheepishly) asks, can we just be pre-engaged?

HI:

Interesting concept. What exactly does it mean? Sounds like another way to silence your questions about getting a committment of marriage from him and from what you''ve discussed before, nothing really appears to have changed.

cheers--Sharon

 

[decodelighted]

Here''s an idea.

Say no more. You stay put. Let him move. See what happens. For some guys, all the talking & analysis doesn''t do a whit of good. They''ll always have some excuse or rationalization or shy sheepish diversion.

What you CAN control: yourself. How much you invest emotionally. How you respond to his plans. How you calmly go about your own life despite his careless disregard of your feelings/needs/goals.

You teach people how to treat you. If he thinks you''ll move eight hours away with no proposal & sep. apts ... he probably has good reason to think that. That you''ll roll over & hang on hopefully AS USUAL.

I do hope you''ll teach him something new this time around.

 

[bee*]

Well done for sticking to your guns about it. I cant believe that he expects you to move so far away without even moving in together!

 

[Becky P]

ladykemma-
As far as him being ready, nothing has changed between today and the post I wrote several weeks (months?) ago. What has changed, though, is that he wants me to pick up and move - AGAIN, yet is still not ready. So, as people always say, I have choices. I can blindly follow him and submit to his every desire (choke, cough, puke). I can stay here in Pittsburgh and wait until he proposes to move. I can break up with him and move... to Chicago? I dunno. I so vividly see our lives together that I''m not sure which way the path will lead right now.


On another note. We did earlier this evening have a second discussion about the entire moving, engagement, living together, religion, parent''s opinion, etc tonight. He''s going to talk to his parents tomorrow and feel everything out. He is extremely close to his family, as am I, and the last thing either of us would want is to be disrespectful to them in any way. He said that he understands I''m ready to get engaged, that he wants to marry me, but he''s just not ready... yet - his words. He said that there''s no way he would even consider asking me to move to NC with him if he didn''t see a long future with us together. He said that he doesn''t, nor has he ever, seen Pittsburgh as a place where he would want to raise a family, and that perhaps Raleigh, NC, would be a place that we would both love and want to raise a family. He''s going to talk to his boss later this week, and we will probably fly out there to see the city and check it out a little bit before making a final decision. I asked him to seriously consider how he sees things working IF we did both end up moving there. I understand that he doesn''t want to upset his parents, but at some point we''re adults and need to be able to make our own decisions. When I said, so, we''d move there and just get apartments next door? He then realized how silly it sounds.. so, we''ll see what happens there.

Another biggie that we hit on tonight is religion. He was raised Muslim, yet is not practicing. I was raised Christian, but am not practicing. Recently, his sister''s boyfriend converted, and the next day they were out looking at e-rings. Today, I flat out asked him what was expected of me and if he (or his family) was expecting me to convert. I asked if, down the road, it would be an issue for his parents that we were not the same religion. He said that, no, he would not expect me to convert and that if it is an issue when we are ready to get married that he would have no problem standing up to his dad and saying that he''s going to marry me anyway. He also said that we might need to incorporate something into the ceremony to respect their traditions (which of course we would do!), but that I did not need to worry about converting (which is good because I wouldn''t).

Anyway, thanks for listening. always.waiting - funny how as soon as I think things are fine, they turn upside down again, huh?

 

[poptart]

Has he ever given an answer as to why he''s not ready *yet*? Just wondering!

Marisa

 

[Mandarine]

Date: 11/6/2006 9:27:40 PM
Author: poptart
Has he ever given an answer as to why he''s not ready *yet*? Just wondering!


Marisa

My thought exactly!!!. Why is he not ready?. I can respect that someone in the relationship might not be ready *yet* for a reason (finish school, get a house, financial metters, etc)....but they know what it would get for them to be ready. Do you know what it will take for him to be ready?...what is it that he is not sure about?...

I know guys that say they wouldn''t get engaged before certain age...kind of silly, but that''s their thing. I''m just wondering as to how you can go on without knowing some of these answers....it would drive me insane!

....what if he''s never ready? but keeps telling you he''s not ready *yet*. At what point you feel like he''s just been misleading you and put a stake in the ground?

I feel for you because I know this is not an easy situation. In so many ways you want to be tough...but it''s hard when you''re in love and have all these dreams.

I would just say (kind of like in your old thread) you have control of *your* situation. If you move and you''re miserable and he just keeps you waiting for longer than you ever wanted to wait...then well, that would be your fault. Don''t put yourself in that situation and stand behind what you told him. You''ll move when you''re engaged. Period. Even going with him to see the city seems a little bit like you''re giving in and once again he has found a way around you to do what he wants. I might be completely wrong, so I apologize in advance.

I would also back off from these type of discussions now...because I think he knows what you want...now he has to figure out what he wants and let you know. All this talk about the city, raising a family, his family, family values, etc....all good and important topics but in my mind they just cloud the main issue here (which I think is exactly what he wants).

Just my .02...

M~

 

[janinegirly]

i think this means you are back at the spot you started at a few mo''s ago, and it might be due to the fact that you let it slide when he never REALLY resonded to your letter which had specific questions and dates. Instead things were kept light (and therefore good) and a lot of words (talking about teaching kids to swim), but no real concrete discussions of real issues. I would be FIRM and ask him again to answer the ques in your letter. NC or not..that''s all just backdrop. If he''s not ready for marriage, why? Just saying he sees you in his future is not enough. TRUST me. If you don''t get to the heart of this now, you''ll be kicking yourself later. Just weeks ago you were speculating if he''d propose by new year''s. Clearly you guys have different expectations.

 

[diamondglee]

I have to agree with janinegirly. It is pretty obvious you guys are at two totally diferent places. He is "just not ready" and doesnt even sound close to knowing when or IF he will be ready. I find it highly unlikely he''s going to figure it out anytime soon, let alone within the next two months.

I know you are selective about what you like to hear, but take it from someone who was in your BF shoes on more than one occassion....there ARE reasons he is not ready, he''s just not being upfront with you about them. Hopefully they will reveal themselves soon, one way or the other. Good luck, he''s a tough nut to crack.

 

[phoenixgirl]

He said that there''s no way he would even consider asking me to move to NC with him if he didn''t see a long future with us together.

Your gut is right not to move. He is trying to have his cake and eat it too. He can''t know he wants to marry you in the future if he doesn''t want to marry you now. He wants to keep you around, keep things the way they are. Move a second time and get your own place again? Please!

So stick to your guns. You don''t move and you have a long distance relationship. Heck, I''d even move back to Chicago. He can propose to you there as easily as in Pittsburgh, and then you''re not stuck in Pittsburgh without the reason you moved there to begin with.

When the anger at his proposition subsides, don''t forget what made you angry in the first place . . . the fact that he is still waffling, still not committing, still asking you to jump through hoops while he tries to feel like he''s ready. I say put your plan B into action . . . move to where YOU want to live. You''re not moving to NC without an engagement ring, and he''s not ready to give you one. OK, you''re at a stalemate. So start living the life you want to have without him because you''re going to be without him anyway when he moves. And then if he comes and asks you to join him in NC as his fiancee, ok, happy ending, and you got to be back with your old friends for one last romp. And if he doesn''t, at least you''ll be in Chicago with your friends and own life when you figure it out, not stuck in Pittsburgh, or worse, North Carolina, with your his and hers apartments.

 

[mrssalvo]

I agree with everything phoenixgirl said. No way no how should you move a second time without a ring and promise of marriage. I think you need to start moving on with your life. If he really wants you in his life he''ll chase you and commit because HE wants to. Give him a chance to prove it to you. I love Chicago, so I vote working your plans to move back there if he moves to NC. Then let him take the lead and you do what you have to do. I''m a very strong person and can take control of things easily to get my way but I purposefully wanted my hubby to pursue me. I had to know he wanted me and would do the chasing, not me chasing him. I had to sit on my hands and not call him or ask him to do things and wait for him to take the lead. I think your man likes things as they are, if you keep doing what your doing the results will more than likely not change, why should they, he''s content. start doing what''s best for YOU!!!

 

[Becky P]

Date: 11/6/2006 9:27:40 PM
Author: poptart
Has he ever given an answer as to why he''s not ready *yet*? Just wondering!

Marisa

The only reason he''s ever said regarding why he''s not ready is that he''s just not ready to be settled down. In his mind, once he''s married, all the fun ends, he gets chained in the basement and is never allowed to see his friends ever again - I am, of course, exaggerating, but that''s how he sees it. He doesn''t want to have to run every little decision by another person and ask for "permission" if he wants to go/do something. Which is quite ironic, because he already does that anyway. I mean, he won''t even consider moving to NC if I won''t move with him. He asks if it''s okay to go to such and such football game with his friends. He''s already doing most of the things he''s afraid of without even really realizing it.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 11/7/2006 8:06:43 AM
Author: Becky P

Date: 11/6/2006 9:27:40 PM

Author: poptart

Has he ever given an answer as to why he''s not ready *yet*? Just wondering!


Marisa

The only reason he''s ever said regarding why he''s not ready is that he''s just not ready to be settled down. In his mind, once he''s married, all the fun ends, he gets chained in the basement and is never allowed to see his friends ever again - I am, of course, exaggerating, but that''s how he sees it. He doesn''t want to have to run every little decision by another person and ask for ''permission'' if he wants to go/do something. Which is quite ironic, because he already does that anyway. I mean, he won''t even consider moving to NC if I won''t move with him. He asks if it''s okay to go to such and such football game with his friends. He''s already doing most of the things he''s afraid of without even really realizing it.

he''s says that, but will his action really back it up. test him and see. Seriously, I would not move again and if that means he must give up his job b/c he won''t propose in order to stay close to you then his action is really saying something. Sounds kinda manipulative to me on his part, telling you he''ll stay in order to convince you to go. I''ll be interested to see how it plays out but don''t fall into the same trap. Be true to yourself and the guidelines you''ve already set. I wouldn''t bring it up again, let him go on his trip, do his thing and again, you need to start figuring out what YOU want and be making plans to take care of you if he''s not in the picture.

 

[anchor31]

I don''t want to offend, but to me it looks like he doesn''t care about you wanting to be engaged before you move. He''s definitely trying to convince you to give up your convictions so you would follow him around and do everything he wants. A "pre-engagement"? Does that really mean anything to him? Would that mean anything to you?

Congratulations for sticking to your guns so far, and don''t give up. Although there was no moving to an other city involved, I was in a moving in together vs engagement dilemma with my FI last year... I held my ground, and a year later we were engaged; we''re moving together next summer.

I agree with the suggestions of building your own life for yourself where and how you want it to be. You''re not married to this man, not even engaged, so why should you build your life around him?

I wish you the best.

 

[Becky P]

Thanks ladies for all the support. I know what I NEED to do, but I can already feel my resolve weakening. I need to stand strong on this - he is the one here with the big decisions, not me. I''ve told him more times than I can count that I would not be moving without being engaged. He either isn''t listening or doesn''t care - it seems selfish to me. If he were to get his way on this, I would move to NC with him, we''d have separate places and no engagement, nor any talk of WHEN an engagement would be forthcoming because he doesn''t want to feel pressured by a deadline. Having it his way would mean that I had to compromise all of what I want and I''m not willing to do that at this point. He is thinking about the possibility of us moving there together and living together - he''s going to talk to his dad about it today - but I''m not sure that would even work for me either... I just don''t know. I feel sick today from all these questions swirling around in my head.

 

[anchor31]

I''m glad that you''re resolved on standing your ground. Good for you!

I understand how your boyfriend may be close to his family (I''m very close to my family too), but it just strikes me as really odd that a grown man would ask his dad for permission to live with a woman...

Unless I''m missing something.

 

[Becky P]

Date: 11/7/2006 8:45:11 AM
Author: anchor31
I''m glad that you''re resolved on standing your ground. Good for you!

I understand how your boyfriend may be close to his family (I''m very close to my family too), but it just strikes me as really odd that a grown man would ask his dad for permission to live with a woman...

Unless I''m missing something.

I agree that it is really odd. But, it ties into religious and cultural beliefs. His parents moved to the US from Egypt before he was born. His dad is a devoutly religious Muslim man. Although my bf is not religious at all, he still strongly respects his family, especially his father, and does not want to disrespect him by making a choice that would be abominable in his father''s eyes. His only relatives in the US are his father, mother, and sister, and moving in with a woman who is not his wife (or even his fiance) could possibly put him in a position where he is dis-owned by his father, which would be horrible! So, in this particular situation, I understand. But, I cannot continue to compromise myself and what I want/need. Of course, there have been so many stories of people who move in with their bf under the understanding that a proposal will follow, which it never does, that it makes me really wary of moving in with him, especially considering how averse he seems to be to marriage.

 

[Maria D]

Date: 11/7/2006 8:38:52 AM
Author: Becky P
Thanks ladies for all the support. I know what I NEED to do, but I can already feel my resolve weakening. I need to stand strong on this - he is the one here with the big decisions, not me. I''ve told him more times than I can count that I would not be moving without being engaged. He either isn''t listening or doesn''t care - it seems selfish to me. If he were to get his way on this, I would move to NC with him, we''d have separate places and no engagement, nor any talk of WHEN an engagement would be forthcoming because he doesn''t want to feel pressured by a deadline. Having it his way would mean that I had to compromise all of what I want and I''m not willing to do that at this point. He is thinking about the possibility of us moving there together and living together - he''s going to talk to his dad about it today - but I''m not sure that would even work for me either... I just don''t know. I feel sick today from all these questions swirling around in my head.

Awww Becky! Your post worries me! here are the specific parts: "I can already feel my resolve weakening." "I''m not willing to do that at this point." "He is thinking about the possibility of us moving there together and living together..."

On that last one: *HE* IS THINKING? You specifically told him what it''s gonna take for you to move to NC -- a PROPOSAL -- and now HE is thinkiing of some other way? When you open up and tell him what''s on your mind and in your heart does he just hear blah blah blah?

Your man has been very clear on what he wants. Same story, different town. This is what he really really wants. You can spend a lot of time trying to get into his head and figure out how he thinks and how he sees things, but that won''t change the fact that this is how he really feels right now. To me it seems like you are trying to debate him into changing his mind: but your way doesn''t make sense dear, are we supposed to have next door apts? Well, maybe it doesn''t make any sense but it is still what he really wants. For whatever reason. Whether he sees marriage as ball and chain or has parental pressure to do things a different way, he LIKES WHAT HE HAS NOW and wants it to continue. You can''t reason with him to change his mind and heart. So what are you supposed to do?

In my opinion, you must waste not another instant trying to get in his head. No more "how do you see things working" or "does this make sense." You have to spend all your pondering time getting into your OWN head. You are with a guy that does not want the commitment of marriage and likes things the way they are right now. How do you see this working out FOR YOU? Will you be happy making him happy or do you have your own needs that must be met? How do you even feel about NC? Sure, maybe you can work anywhere but do you want to work anywhere? In a good marriage/relationship, the couple makes decisions TOGETHER so that they both win. How do YOU feel about only considering your other half''s needs when major decisions are made? Is there any good reason not to be dating other people before YOU commit to one person. Is this guy the end all be all for you or is he a pretty good match that you''ve already invested a lot of time in? What qualities do YOU see in an ideal mate? Where is the ideal place for YOU to live?

Why not just try this tactic: Tell him you''re all done talking about NC because, as he should understand, you won''t be moving there. (No proposal, no move.) Then just stop talking about it. If he comes back and says, Dad said it''s OK for us to live together (now does that sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me?) you just say "I''m sorry honey; I''m all done talking about moving to NC, you know why."

As for timelines vs. deadlines, the whole point of a timeline (I thought) is to set a reasonable time for a couple to figure out if they want the same things. If after the six months (or however long) they still aren''t on the same track, it''s a way to cut your losses and move on. So yes, it is a deadline in the sense that you are telling him that you don''t want to wait around forever for marriage -- you want to be able to move on and find a better match for yourself if he''s not willing to commit NOW. Time to get in your own head again -- how do you see things working out if he doesn''t want to marry according to your timeline if at all? Are you willing to wait indefinitely? Do you ever want to have children? Do you feel the need to be married for a few years before you have children?

He is not the only one with big decisions here. You need to make decisions about him!

 

[ladykemma]

he wants his ''mistress'' to move with him.

 

[janinegirly]

i''ve just skimmed alot of these posts, so apologies if i repeat stuff/questions..

even though it''s v. different from me, I don''t think it is so strange that he wants to run all of this his parents. It''s a cultural and religious thing and everyone has their own family issues, so we can''t judge him. In fact a lot of parents are hesitant to have their children (at any age) move in with someone before marriage, although it''s usually more the girl''s parents.
I think the heart of the issue is not whether his parents approve, but the fact that he is simply not ready for marriage. He still associates it with a loss of freedom, blah blah blah. I mean we all see that is ridiculous, but most guys feel this at some point or another but eventually mature and become ready to settle down. A little coaxing might be involved, but it can''t be forced. I think there''s a long way to go in this situation since he is still no where near the mindset of preparing to settle down and make a solid commitment towards marriage (which is very different from moving somewhere together, and even living together).
I guess it depends on how long you (becky) are willing to wait for marriage or an engagement. The way he''s talking, it''s sounding like years not months.

 

[Mandarine]

Oh Becky...

Like I said before, I think you are giving in....

Why is he even asking his Dad when you haven''t agreed that you would move anyway?. He is just assuming you will....so all your talk is just talk to him. He hasn''t taking any of it seriously. All he saw was "oh, she has an issue getting her own place in NC". Hello? that wasn''t the issue. Once again he''s trying to cloud the issue with other things: family, values, where he wants to raise a family, etc....like I said: all good topics and important...but all of them beside the point right now.

First things first...you told him you wouldn''t move without being engaged. All the other talk can come after you guys are in fact engaged.

What gets me the most. Are you sure you want to get engaged after all this struggle?. It really shouldn''t be this hard. He is so close to losing you and doesn''t seem to care. You talk and he doesn''t seem to listen...it''s like we are all here trying to corner him to he can propose. And then what?....is this what you really want?.

I know boys and girls are somewhat (in most cases) different when it comes to engagement and marriage. It doesn''t really happen like it''s shown on the movies, but we all deserve to be with someone that wants to be with us just as much as we want to be with them. Not someone we had to work so hard to get them to *finally* give in.

Be strong. Stand your ground...no more NC talk like Maria said.

 

[WTNLVR]

Another biggie that we hit on tonight is religion. He was raised Muslim, yet is not practicing. I was raised Christian, but am not practicing. Recently, his sister's boyfriend converted, and the next day they were out looking at e-rings.


This is a huge red flag to me. Why did the future BIL convert?? His family is deeply religious. Can it be that he knows his family will not approve of him marrying outside his faith and that is the reason he is stalling?? I had this happen to a friend of mine. He kept getting denials that it was an issue etc... But in the end, the girl did what her family insisted on and married a catholic like herself. This was after 4 years of dating! Don't underestimate the power of religion in peoples decisions. Good luck.

 

[Becky P]

Date: 11/7/2006 10:17:33 AM
Author: WTNLVR
Another biggie that we hit on tonight is religion. He was raised Muslim, yet is not practicing. I was raised Christian, but am not practicing. Recently, his sister''s boyfriend converted, and the next day they were out looking at e-rings.


This is a huge red flag to me. Why did the future BIL convert?? His family is deeply religious. Can it be that he knows his family will not approve of him marrying outside his faith and that is the reason he is stalling?? I had this happen to a friend of mine. He kept getting denials that it was an issue etc... But in the end, the girl did what her family insisted on and married a catholic like herself. This was after 4 years of dating! Don''t underestimate the power of religion in peoples decisions. Good luck.

Within the Muslim religion, a woman is NOT allowed to marry a non-Muslim man. Therefore, the only way for the two of them to progress was for him to convert. There is entirely a double standard in place because a Muslim man IS allowed to marry a non-Muslim woman so long as she is "of the book" meaning that she is a Christian or a Jew.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Aside from telling you that NC is a wonderful place to live

, I just want to encourage you to stick to your guns about not moving unless you are engaged. I do suspect family disapproval is a strong underlying factor in this situation. But even if Dad said, great! Move in together! I''d still be concerned that it would result in postponing even longer a commitment of marriage. So I strongly advise you NOT to move with him, whether in separate or the same living space. He needs to move if it is best for his career, and he needs to see whether he can live without you or not. And if he can, then you''ll be able to get on with your life.

 

[diamondglee]

Isnt it against the Muslim faith to marry a woman who is not a virgin? If his dad is devout, it makes the opposition to living together clear, let alone marriage.

 

[janinegirly]

i think she should get an answer on his timeline and his seriousness about engagement/marriage in the short term (ie by March 2007 which I think was her expressed timeline to him). NC by the sounds of it is not an immediate thing and shouldn''t necessarily force a decision (or delay it).

 

[Becky P]

Date: 11/7/2006 9:04:32 AM
Author: Maria D

Date: 11/7/2006 8:38:52 AM
Author: Becky P
Thanks ladies for all the support. I know what I NEED to do, but I can already feel my resolve weakening. I need to stand strong on this - he is the one here with the big decisions, not me. I''ve told him more times than I can count that I would not be moving without being engaged. He either isn''t listening or doesn''t care - it seems selfish to me. If he were to get his way on this, I would move to NC with him, we''d have separate places and no engagement, nor any talk of WHEN an engagement would be forthcoming because he doesn''t want to feel pressured by a deadline. Having it his way would mean that I had to compromise all of what I want and I''m not willing to do that at this point. He is thinking about the possibility of us moving there together and living together - he''s going to talk to his dad about it today - but I''m not sure that would even work for me either... I just don''t know. I feel sick today from all these questions swirling around in my head.

Awww Becky! Your post worries me! here are the specific parts: ''I can already feel my resolve weakening.'' ''I''m not willing to do that at this point.'' ''He is thinking about the possibility of us moving there together and living together...''

On that last one: *HE* IS THINKING? You specifically told him what it''s gonna take for you to move to NC -- a PROPOSAL -- and now HE is thinkiing of some other way? When you open up and tell him what''s on your mind and in your heart does he just hear blah blah blah?

Your man has been very clear on what he wants. Same story, different town. This is what he really really wants. You can spend a lot of time trying to get into his head and figure out how he thinks and how he sees things, but that won''t change the fact that this is how he really feels right now. To me it seems like you are trying to debate him into changing his mind: but your way doesn''t make sense dear, are we supposed to have next door apts? Well, maybe it doesn''t make any sense but it is still what he really wants. For whatever reason. Whether he sees marriage as ball and chain or has parental pressure to do things a different way, he LIKES WHAT HE HAS NOW and wants it to continue. You can''t reason with him to change his mind and heart. So what are you supposed to do?

In my opinion, you must waste not another instant trying to get in his head. No more ''how do you see things working'' or ''does this make sense.'' You have to spend all your pondering time getting into your OWN head. You are with a guy that does not want the commitment of marriage and likes things the way they are right now. How do you see this working out FOR YOU? Will you be happy making him happy or do you have your own needs that must be met? How do you even feel about NC? Sure, maybe you can work anywhere but do you want to work anywhere? In a good marriage/relationship, the couple makes decisions TOGETHER so that they both win. How do YOU feel about only considering your other half''s needs when major decisions are made? Is there any good reason not to be dating other people before YOU commit to one person. Is this guy the end all be all for you or is he a pretty good match that you''ve already invested a lot of time in? What qualities do YOU see in an ideal mate? Where is the ideal place for YOU to live?

Why not just try this tactic: Tell him you''re all done talking about NC because, as he should understand, you won''t be moving there. (No proposal, no move.) Then just stop talking about it. If he comes back and says, Dad said it''s OK for us to live together (now does that sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me?) you just say ''I''m sorry honey; I''m all done talking about moving to NC, you know why.''

As for timelines vs. deadlines, the whole point of a timeline (I thought) is to set a reasonable time for a couple to figure out if they want the same things. If after the six months (or however long) they still aren''t on the same track, it''s a way to cut your losses and move on. So yes, it is a deadline in the sense that you are telling him that you don''t want to wait around forever for marriage -- you want to be able to move on and find a better match for yourself if he''s not willing to commit NOW. Time to get in your own head again -- how do you see things working out if he doesn''t want to marry according to your timeline if at all? Are you willing to wait indefinitely? Do you ever want to have children? Do you feel the need to be married for a few years before you have children?

He is not the only one with big decisions here. You need to make decisions about him!

Lots of good questions Maria... You are right. I have spent a lot of time trying to get into his head and figure out what he''s thinking, and he is being EXTREMELY clear. He is NOT ready for marriage and isn''t sure when he will be. He says he definitely wants to marry me, but I doubt that, which is probably why I continue to pester him. I don''t have faith that he will really one day propose. And, I never want for him to propose because he was forced into it.

Why do I keep waiting then? Because I love him. More than words can explain. We have now dated twice - once in college (Feb ''98- Feb ''99) and now again for the past 4 years (''02-''06). When we met back in college, I called my mom and told her I met the man I was going to marry. She thought I was nuts! But, I just knew, you know that feeling when you just KNOW? When we broke up in college, I was devasted. Eventually, I started dating again, and I dated a LOT of wrong men. No one even held a candle to him. When he called years later, I was flabbergasted. I could not believe that the love of my life had come back. You know that saying, set him free, if he comes back to you, he''s yours, if he doesn''t, it was never meant to be? That''s what I felt like. I had been out there, seen all these other men, and then he finally came back. We are so perfect for each other - neither of us is perfect, mind you - but together, we just work, it clicks. The only stumbling block whatsoever is marriage.

You ask where is the ideal place for ME to live, but that''s a really hard question to answer. I so vividly see our lives together that I can''t picture living anywhere without both of us living there. Ideally, I''d like to see us end up in Columbus, OH eventually, but he''s not ready to move back home yet either. I''ve never been to NC, but from what everyone that I''ve talked to has said, it''s really nice and sounds like a great place. I really have no desire to continue living in Pittsburgh - I never did in the first place - but, we needed to be in the same city to see if things would work out, and I feel that they have. I guess if we broke up, I would probably move back to Chicago for the time being, but I don''t really see myself living there either. I guess I''m just ready to be settled into a community, living in a home with a family. But, he doesn''t want that, and you''re right. There''s no way I can bargain him into wanting a home and a family with me. So, I dunno. I really don''t want to cut my losses and move on because I love him so much and I do think that eventually he''ll be ready, but I''m not sure that I want to wait for eventually to come around...