Uncertified diamonds -- Go or No Go?

[SuzyQZ]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

I'm told by the vendor that this is a great value for the money and that certified diamonds would carry a much higher price tag. They assure me their diamonds are very well cut and meet their highest standards just like their top of the line melee diamonds and are very beautiful. Their melee diamonds don't have certs, but do display arrows prominently.

So my question is, does a cert even really matter in this instance?
As I said, they are a very trusted vendor, and I have had a great past buying experience with them, they got their good reputation for a reason.
But, there is a nagging in my mind about uncertified stones, so can you put my mind at ease?
If they sparkle like mad, isn't that all that really matters in the end?

Price IS a consideration and this is about as much as I wanted to spend and I like the total carat size.
Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

 

[shihtzulover]

I probably don't have the same opinion as many PriceScope members, but I would go for it as long as they vendor has a good return policy. I would just make sure that I could return them for my money back if I wasn't satisfied, and then I would trust them.

I wouldn't ever buy a larger diamond that was not certified, and I would never recommend an un-certified diamond for an engagement ring center stone, but I think that un-certified, smaller diamonds for earrings/necklaces/etc are fine.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

But, there is a nagging in my mind about uncertified stones, so can you put my mind at ease?
If they sparkle like mad, isn't that all that really matters in the end?

Price IS a consideration and this is about as much as I wanted to spend and I like the total carat size.
Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

Do you think it would matter to the family member if the stones are certified? I guess that would be the main consideration!

 

[SuzyQZ]

I probably don't have the same opinion as many PriceScope members, but I would go for it as long as they vendor has a good return policy. I would just make sure that I could return them for my money back if I wasn't satisfied, and then I would trust them.

I wouldn't ever buy a larger diamond that was not certified, and I would never recommend an un-certified diamond for an engagement ring center stone, but I think that un-certified, smaller diamonds for earrings/necklaces/etc are fine.

Thank you Shitzulover, that is what I needed to hear. I think because these are smaller diamonds and earrings a GIA/AGS cert is not as important. They have a good return policy, but I will verify.

 

[swingirl]

It's a gift for someone who probably isn't as particular about certification as the PS community. I would trust WF, BGD, JA and some others to pick out nice stones, especially knowing that they know you have PS standards. I would be fine with uncertified for earrings anyway, as long as they were well-cut.

 

[SuzyQZ]

But, there is a nagging in my mind about uncertified stones, so can you put my mind at ease?
If they sparkle like mad, isn't that all that really matters in the end?

Price IS a consideration and this is about as much as I wanted to spend and I like the total carat size.
Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

Do you think it would matter to the family member if the stones are certified? I guess that would be the main consideration!

No, she won't care. I am the diamophobe. This is her first set of studs. She'll be thrilled and not the least bit interested in the paper. The sparkle is what she'll notice.

 

[SuzyQZ]

It's a gift for someone who probably isn't as particular about certification as the PS community. I would trust WF, BGD, JA and some others to pick out nice stones, especially knowing that they know you have PS standards. I would be fine with uncertified for earrings anyway, as long as they were well-cut.

Swingirl: Yes, my vendor is among the three you mentioned. They already have past experience with me and know I'm a long time PSer. I'm feeling better about his now. Thank you.

 

[kenny]

A grading report independently establishes the specs, and therefore helps establish what the price should be.

No report means trusting the seller on specs and price.
I would never do that, unless the diamonds were in the under $500 dollar range.

The buyer of ungraded diamonds being happy with the purchase means absolutely nothing.
It certainly does not mean the buyer was not ripped off.
Subtle differences, not visible to the novice, can mean thousands of dollars of difference in the price.

 

[SuzyQZ]

A grading report independently establishes the specs, and therefore helps establish what the price should be.

No report means trusting the seller on specs and price.
I would never do that, unless the diamonds were in the under $500 dollar range.

The buyer of ungraded diamonds being happy with the purchase means absolutely nothing.
It certainly does not mean the buyer was not ripped off.
Subtle differences, not visible to the novice, can mean thousands of dollars of difference in the price.

Kenny: I knew you wouldn't sugar coat it! You are saying what my nagging voice is saying.
BUT, here's the BUT... these are smaller stones, the price is reflecting that they are uncertified and the vendor is a trusted one. Does that not trump my (your) "nagging voice"? My past experience with them has been stellar, they know I am a discerning customer. Isn't it OK to trust a vendor with an exceptional track record?

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

 

[kenny]

A grading report independently establishes the specs, and therefore helps establish what the price should be.

No report means trusting the seller on specs and price.
I would never do that, unless the diamonds were in the under $500 dollar range.

The buyer of ungraded diamonds being happy with the purchase means absolutely nothing.
It certainly does not mean the buyer was not ripped off.
Subtle differences, not visible to the novice, can mean thousands of dollars of difference in the price.

Kenny: I knew you wouldn't sugar coat it! You are saying what my nagging voice is saying.
BUT, here's the BUT... these are smaller stones, the price is reflecting that they are uncertified and the vendor is a trusted one. Does that not trump my (your) "nagging voice"? My past experience with them has been stellar, they know I am a discerning customer. Isn't it OK to trust a vendor with an exceptional track record?

That's your call.
People vary and so do their personalities.
If it feels okay to you knowing all you know then it feels okay to you.
If not, then not.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It's a gift for someone who probably isn't as particular about certification as the PS community. I would trust WF, BGD, JA and some others to pick out nice stones, especially knowing that they know you have PS standards. I would be fine with uncertified for earrings anyway, as long as they were well-cut.

Swingirl: Yes, my vendor is among the three you mentioned. They already have past experience with me and know I'm a long time PSer. I'm feeling better about his now. Thank you.

From one of those vendors, I would trust their selection.

What would a comparable cost with certs? If the savings were substantial I would be even more ok with it. Sometimes, it is worth buying uncerted stones in the right context. This might be it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

This would tempt me too, you know.

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

 

[SuzyQZ]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

Dancing Fire: The price and size of that diamond are great, but I can't find a match for it anywhere close to that price.
Doing the math, and assuming I could find a match to the diamond you linked, the cost would be $790 X 2 and the setting adds $325 which puts me at $1,905. $300 more. BGD pre set studs (uncertified diamonds) in a .78ctw F-G SI2 is $1,565, just $52 less that the setting I'm looking at now. I have a great relationship with all the vendors mentioned and have purchased from several of them in the past without any problems and absolute total satisfaction. Hence, I ask myself is this a good deal? Why shouldn't I trust their selection? Should a cert matter for small stones/earrings? But then that little voice starts up again.

 

[SuzyQZ]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

This would tempt me too, you know.

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

Dreamer:
If I could find a deal like that, I'd scoop it up in a second!!! Can I ask how long ago did you buy your earrings and from where?

 

[iheartscience]

Hmm...when do you need the earrings by? Is it for a birthday or another event? And are you set on the size?

I got .62 ctw certed diamond earrings (I/SI1s) in the handmade bezel setting from WF a few years ago for $1000. I know prices have gone up since then but if you bumped down in size a bit I bet you could swing .3s with certs. My earring diamonds are Expert Selections instead of ACAs and they did come with an AGS report, although it was the abbreviated one. (The Diamond Quality Document? Something like that.)

I think if you shop around or just wait a few months for more inventory to come out you might be able to find ideal cut I or J diamonds in your price range with certs. I would personally want certs for $1600ish.

ETA okay I just looked at James Allen and their .3 "True Hearts" diamonds start at $490 for an I VS2. I would go that route if you're feeling worried about the certs. As long as they're ideal cut, especially for earrings, I wouldn't mind not having ACAs/ESs or BGD Signatures.

 

[Dreamer_D]

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

Dreamer:
If I could find a deal like that, I'd scoop it up in a second!!! Can I ask how long ago did you buy your earrings and from where?

Bought in February with my PS gift from Whiteflash. There was one stone in house and the other called in but both are ES stones.

How about two of these? Total cost about $1100 for the stones. All AGS0 so top cuts, don't need H&A in this size.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317092.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317102.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1363856.asp

 

[SuzyQZ]

Hmm...when do you need the earrings by? Is it for a birthday or another event? And are you set on the size?

I got .62 ctw certed diamond earrings (I/SI1s) in the handmade bezel setting from WF a few years ago for $1000. I know prices have gone up since then but if you bumped down in size a bit I bet you could swing .3s with certs. My earring diamonds are Expert Selections instead of ACAs and they did come with an AGS report, although it was the abbreviated one. (The Diamond Quality Document? Something like that.)

I think if you shop around or just wait a few months for more inventory to come out you might be able to find ideal cut I or J diamonds in your price range with certs. I would personally want certs for $1600ish.

ETA okay I just looked at James Allen and their .3 "True Hearts" diamonds start at $490 for an I VS2. I would go that route if you're feeling worried about the certs. As long as they're ideal cut, especially for earrings, I wouldn't mind not having ACAs/ESs or BGD Signatures.

T2of2:
I'm actually late for this gift. It's a college graduation gift and it's already past. I originally bought diamond huggies but ended up returning them because of problems with the setting. Hubby and I then decided to go the diamond stud route for a more classic look. I think prices have gone up and that is what I'm running into here, seems like for what I'm paying I should see some kind of certificate. I don't want to go down smaller that .375's because I want them to be of a size that she will wear for a long time and not feel they are too small at some point later on in her life. She's 21 and these are her first pair of diamond earrings. The WF earrings in the ready-set-go bezels (which is what I'm looking at) are not Expert Selection, they are uncertified. I would be thrilled with WF ES, but that is not what is offered in the WF ready-set-go studs nor in the BGD preset earrings either. Both vendors use uncertified stones in these settings.

 

[SuzyQZ]

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

Dreamer:
If I could find a deal like that, I'd scoop it up in a second!!! Can I ask how long ago did you buy your earrings and from where?

Bought in February with my PS gift from Whiteflash. There was one stone in house and the other called in but both are ES stones.

How about two of these? Total cost about $1100 for the stones. All AGS0 so top cuts, don't need H&A in this size.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317092.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317102.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1363856.asp

Dreamer, those are some great options! I've never purchased from JA before. I've always been enamored of all the information, Sarin, ASET and Idealscope pictures posted by WF and BGD. For some reason I never ventured into JA territory because they just didn't give the same info, but now you got me thinking, I think I might give them a call tomorrow. Thank you.

 

[Dreamer_D]

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

Dreamer:
If I could find a deal like that, I'd scoop it up in a second!!! Can I ask how long ago did you buy your earrings and from where?

Bought in February with my PS gift from Whiteflash. There was one stone in house and the other called in but both are ES stones.

How about two of these? Total cost about $1100 for the stones. All AGS0 so top cuts, don't need H&A in this size.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317092.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317102.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1363856.asp

Dreamer, those are some great options! I've never purchased from JA before. I've always been enamored of all the information, Sarin, ASET and Idealscope pictures posted by WF and BGD. For some reason I never ventured into JA territory because they just didn't give the same info, but now you got me thinking, I think I might give them a call tomorrow. Thank you.

The true hearts line from JA has IS images posted and hearts images. You can request ideal scope images from JA, it just takes them a couple days to get them because technically the stones are not in house. That is why they cost less. There is really nothing in your desired specs at WF or BGD right now. I personally would not hesitate to buy from JA, given the information you can get from pictures, the HCA, and a requested IS image.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

Dancing Fire: The price and size of that diamond are great, but I can't find a match for it anywhere close to that price.
Doing the math, and assuming I could find a match to the diamond you linked, the cost would be $790 X 2 and the setting adds $325 which puts me at $1,905. $300 more. BGD pre set studs (uncertified diamonds) in a .78ctw F-G SI2 is $1,565, just $52 less that the setting I'm looking at now. I have a great relationship with all the vendors mentioned and have purchased from several of them in the past without any problems and absolute total satisfaction. Hence, I ask myself is this a good deal? Why shouldn't I trust their selection? Should a cert matter for small stones/earrings? But then that little voice starts up again.

less than $300 if you subtract the cash and the PS discount.

 

[SuzyQZ]

I'm not sure how I feel about this so I'm coming here for some enlightenment/reassurance.
What would you do?

I am thinking about buying diamond stud earrings as a gift for a family member.
They will be .75 ctw from a very trusted PS vendor.

I mistakenly thought the diamonds (.375 X 2) were going to be certified, but I just found out that they are going to be hand picked by the vendor from their uncertified inventory.
They are described on the website as H, SI's (website is not specific as to SI1 or SI2) price for the bezel set earrings is $1,617 for .75ctw.

Is this the best way to get the most bang for my buck?

Looking for some feedback, what would you do?

Go or No Go?

for about the same price i'd prefer to pick a pair of these...

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104051366071

Dancing Fire: The price and size of that diamond are great, but I can't find a match for it anywhere close to that price.
Doing the math, and assuming I could find a match to the diamond you linked, the cost would be $790 X 2 and the setting adds $325 which puts me at $1,905. $300 more. BGD pre set studs (uncertified diamonds) in a .78ctw F-G SI2 is $1,565, just $52 less that the setting I'm looking at now. I have a great relationship with all the vendors mentioned and have purchased from several of them in the past without any problems and absolute total satisfaction. Hence, I ask myself is this a good deal? Why shouldn't I trust their selection? Should a cert matter for small stones/earrings? But then that little voice starts up again.

less than $300 if you subtract the cash and the PS discount.

DF:
I'll give Leslie/Jamie a call tomorrow, see if she can match that diamond you found. Also I'll ask WF if they have any ES that are close to my .75 tcw.

 

[SuzyQZ]

My own .70ctw earrings cost $1000, they are J VS2 and J Si1 AGS0 stones. For earrings, color really matters much less, especially to a non diamond nut. So upon reflection, I think you can get a better deal buying lower color certed stones with known specs, and the wearer will be thrilled I am sure.

Dreamer:
If I could find a deal like that, I'd scoop it up in a second!!! Can I ask how long ago did you buy your earrings and from where?

Bought in February with my PS gift from Whiteflash. There was one stone in house and the other called in but both are ES stones.

How about two of these? Total cost about $1100 for the stones. All AGS0 so top cuts, don't need H&A in this size.

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317092.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1317102.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1363856.asp

Dreamer, those are some great options! I've never purchased from JA before. I've always been enamored of all the information, Sarin, ASET and Idealscope pictures posted by WF and BGD. For some reason I never ventured into JA territory because they just didn't give the same info, but now you got me thinking, I think I might give them a call tomorrow. Thank you.

The true hearts line from JA has IS images posted and hearts images. You can request ideal scope images from JA, it just takes them a couple days to get them because technically the stones are not in house. That is why they cost less. There is really nothing in your desired specs at WF or BGD right now. I personally would not hesitate to buy from JA, given the information you can get from pictures, the HCA, and a requested IS image.

Dreamer: I was so hoping this was going to be an easy purchase. Call up a trusted PS vendor, ask for a .75tcw, bezel set setting, deliver in a week with certificates. I was not expecting ACA's or BG Signature, but wanted some decent arrows and a certificate. WF ES or BG Select or even GIA excellent would have been totally fine. The WF ready-set-go's or the BGD pre-set studs are an easy option, cert or no cert. I'm sure they will look fabulous.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="SuzyQZ|1306476947|

DF:
I'll give Leslie/Jamie a call tomorrow, see if she can match that diamond you found. Also I'll ask Vera at WF if they have any ES that are close to my .75 tcw.[/quote]

yeah,give them a call ,cuz it really doesn't cost that much more for a pair of GIA/AGS stones.

 

[SuzyQZ]

[quote="SuzyQZ|1306476947|

DF:
I'll give Leslie/Jamie a call tomorrow, see if she can match that diamond you found. Also I'll ask Vera at WF if they have any ES that are close to my .75 tcw.

Dancing Fire wrote: yeah,give them a call ,cuz it really doesn't cost that much more for a pair of GIA/AGS stones.[/quote]


Dancing Fire:
Just got a reply from BGD, they have no match for this diamond. They are checking to see what is coming down the pike, but nothing in house at this moment. Time is an issue for me as this is a belated gift. I was hoping to wrap get this up in a week, but this is looking like it will take a while.

I've done a search at WF and nothing comes up in my range. I asked to see if they had anything in house, but I haven't heard back yet.

ETA: BREAKING NEWS.... BGD "might" have found a match! Brian is going to look at it and get back to me... fingers crossed

 

[canuk-gal]

HI SQ:

Forgive me if these options have already been posted.....

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1213039.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1287682.asp

cheers--Sharon

 

[tyty333]

Sorry if these have already been posted..
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1360564.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1360565.asp

(they have more too...I didnt look at the details on the stones but I think you can get
a nice pair of cert diamonds for around $1300 leaving another $300 or so for the setting.

 

[SuzyQZ]

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!!!

BGD came through with two matched AGS 000's I'll post the specs after I pay for them! And I'm out the door for LESS than the uncerted stones.
Holy cow, that was easy!!
Jamie is on her GAME!!!!

 

[nfowife]

Congrats! Can't wait to see them!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Great!

As an aside for any future shoppers, I consider the JA stones to be an easy purchase too. In my opinion, with GIA Ex, a real life photo, and a good HCA score you do not need an IS image at all. So you can also pick, buy, and walk out with stones from JA within a short time and with no waiting.

In your case, since you wanted bezels, and JA does not have those, BGD or WF are the best options! But I don't want other consumers to be left with the impression that the process of buying from a vendor like JA need be complicated. It doesn't have to be!