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Two Asschers w/ASETs - Please Help Choose

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by the_mother_thing, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 5, 2018
    I have both of these on hold with JA. I would appreciate thoughts on both from those with an eye for step cuts. I like both for slightly different reasons.

    1.6 ct J: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/1.60-carat-j-color-vs2-clarity-sku-6217467

    1.61 ct I: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/1.61-carat-i-color-vs1-clarity-sku-4335960

    For ease of comparison, here are the still images with their corresponding ASETs below each, though I think the videos are better to assess the faceting in movement vs. the stills.
    A04D7C59-EF79-4017-8CCA-52AE4442D88F.jpeg

    The I-1.61 appears brighter overall to me, and appears to have better light return than the J-1.6; but the J’s smaller table is a bit more to my liking, though I’m not really sure how much my eyes would realistically discern that difference between the two. The I-1.61 also appears to have more crisp faceting under the table both in the still image and when moving (contrasty on & off), which - realistically - is how we typically see diamonds when worn - they’re moving.

    JA assured me the inclusion under the table on the I-1.61 ct is not visible without magnification/loupe, so I’m good with both diamonds’ color & clarity.

    Thoughts? Concerns with either? Which would you choose, and why? Or would you throw one/both in the garbage? Thanks in advance! :wavey:
     
  2. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 5, 2018
    Ooops ... posted to the wrong forum, but have asked admin to move to RT. Long day ... :(sad
     
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  3. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Dec 5, 2018
    I
     
  4. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Dec 5, 2018
    I am only finding a couple of options with tables less than 60%... eg. www & www

    TBC
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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  5. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Dec 6, 2018
    That central square (made up of the P3 facets??) in the I stone does not appear to be giving that much direct reflection / white light return in the video - stare at that centre square as it rotates and you can see virtual facet reflections (I think?) giving changing reflections on the facets, but no actual strong white light return.

    I'm not sure how that would look in real life, it may need to be assessed in person to see if the central square matches the rest of the stone for brightness and performance, or whether it is a bit 'quiet'?

    I think I prefer the J myself - it seems more balanced across the stone in terms of direct reflections and virtual facet reflections (if I am understanding how it all works :???: ) and the very centre seems brighter. The ASETscope image (which is, of course, only the one angle) might be less-bright green around the centre, but it is still green rather than leaky. The inclusion in the table of the I would also bug my clarity-freak self :D haha

    I am having a self-doubt day so would like Karl to chime in, but I know he can't... lol

    I can try to have a look for other potential options later but I need to do some work today! :lol:
     
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  6. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 6, 2018
    Thank you @AV_ for the alternatives. They are beautiful, but outside of my desired budget. I combed through a few inventories, and these two seemed to tick most of my boxes for what I want to spend.

    @OoohShiny Thank you for your feedback on the two. I hadn’t stumbled upon much info by way of virtual facets (in terms of an explanation), so I’m glad you mentioned it, as it forced me to go reading more, and I found this article by @Karl_K a few years back: https://www.pricescope.com/articles/virtual-facets-and-patterns-discussion-about-step-cuts. I haven’t, however, found the follow-up articles on the related topic, but I’ll keep digging. I wish the videos linked in the articles were still visible; they don’t work when I try to click on them to help correlate what I’m reading with what I may be seeing.

    I think I prefer the J as well, as it has a smaller table, doesn’t have the inclusion under the table, and the crown seems taller looking at the two side by side. I’m waiting for the JA gemologist’s assessment of the two, and hope that yields some additional insight on the performance of both diamonds.
    469110F9-EFF9-4B17-9667-946F16832B0E.jpeg
     
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  7. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Dec 6, 2018
    (Oops... prices do not show on reserved items)

    I see what you mean about tables & crowns. The ASET of the J seems better, but I cannot guess if at a small tilt any difference is still noticeable.
     
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  8. Karl_K
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Karl_K » Dec 6, 2018
    Sorry the removed parts where never redone.
    After getting attacked for daring to contradict the new ags virtual facet report at the time that says that size was what mattered with a counter that shape and orientation relative to the viewer and light source are just as important as size I took heat.
    I started to redo them but I just did the articles for fun and it got to much like work and dropped them.
    I was right but it was just not worth the work.

    As far as the ASET images goes they are above average The 1.6 has a brighter center but the other one is brighter outside the table.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
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  9. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 6, 2018
    @AV_ No worries; I didn’t want to ask everyone to search for me because finding candidates for ‘the one’ (for me) is a combination of not only what my eyes see & like (which sometimes is outside the PS norms/ideal), but what I also may be comfortable spending for any particular diamond. That balance isn’t something others can really determine, so I just prefer to search out options myself to narrow them down, but I greatly appreciate the feedback on what I do find to make sure there isn’t something glaring that I’m not seeing/aware of that would yield a poor performer in person. ;)2

    I realize the pics may not confirm what I’m thinking about the crown height; I’m just going by what my eyes seem to see. The tables though are confirmed by the diamond certificates, although I’m not sure how reliable IGI (for the I-1.61) is, while the other is GIA.

    @Karl_K No worries; and I’m sorry if my comment came across as critical. That’s not what I intended. I just hadn’t come across them as of yet when searching, but wasn’t ruling out that they did in fact exist. I certainly do appreciate any and all input and effort you (and others) put in to help educate consumers, and I can appreciate that great minds don’t always think alike in all areas which can lead to some strife, which can turn a passion into a pain in the rump. Thank you as well for weighing in on the ASET images.

    One question I haven’t found clearly asked and answered is - these diamonds aside - what is the visual difference between an Asscher with 3 vs. 4 pavilion facets? I’d think it would be broader flashes of light, but is there more to it than that? When I spin these two diamonds side-by-side, that’s all that jumps out at me - broader flashes under the table.
     
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  10. Karl_K
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Karl_K » Dec 6, 2018
    3 or 4 rows are both valid ways of cutting them and they can mimic each other.
    3 rows can create more visual steps(virtual facets) than 4 rows and vis-versa.
    What is more important is how well the facets align in angle and placement.
    Unlike a RB many of the facets are not fixed in place by the design.
    Many badly cut stones are the result of bad placement to keep weight.
    https://www.pricescope.com/articles/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

    Edit: no worries I was not taking it as being critical.
     
  11. LLJsmom
    Ideal_Rock

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    by LLJsmom » Dec 7, 2018
    I definitely prefer I. I prefer flatter crowns. I also prefer the steps on the I. I have discovered that step cuts preferences can be so personal. I think you should go with which ever one you prefer at first glance, assuming there is no obvious leakage that you don’t like.
     
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  12. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Dec 7, 2018
    Thank you for your efforts, Karl :)

    Personally speaking, I am very interested in tilt-angle / orientation performance - ASETscope images as they stand are useful but only of limited value (IMHO) because performance across the 180degree viewing angle is much more 'real life' and therefore more important (again, IMHO). Tilt-angle ASETs, such as those diagem posted for Jimmianne's vintage-y asscher, would seem the natural next step and extremely helpful in assessing real-life performance.
     
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  13. Karl_K
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Karl_K » Dec 7, 2018
    I have never claimed anything but that ASET is one point of data in many and a flawed one.
    There is not anyone tool that has all the answers and there never will be.
    That is why multiple data points are needed.
    Video as done today even in the best setups like vibox have large shortcoming and rotating while sitting on the p2 facet setup is well below that.
    I haven't seen the images but tilt-angle ASET images also have serious short comings.
    That doesn't mean that each of them cant be a data point to decide if it is worth looking deeper into.
    Time in the owners environment with their eyes is the final exam.
     
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  14. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 7, 2018
    May I ask why? Specifically, what is the visual appeal you see & prefer over those with taller crowns?
     
  15. LLJsmom
    Ideal_Rock

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    by LLJsmom » Dec 7, 2018
    There is probably
    Nothing scientific in my reasoning. I like step
    Cuts where the steps are relatively big and even and then I notice that those have flatter crowns. That’s it. The steps on the I look more equal in width to me. I think it’s a very personal preference.
     
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  16. clcat120
    Shiny_Rock

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    by clcat120 » Dec 7, 2018
    I definitely love the J more. Certification set aside, the J seems to be having a more superior visual overall. The I looks very flat to me when it is in the rotating video especially in the center. Also, I really really dislike any black crystal inclusions. It really ruins it for me in any diamond.

    For Asscher, I have learned from my purchase, that you really need to see the stone in 360 degree from all angels. I just bought my J, and it is very bright. I have some E color diamond, so side by side, the color difference is noticeable for the majority of time. However, now I stop wearing my E color items, and the J really looks pretty white to me now.
     
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  17. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 7, 2018
    Thank you @LLJsmom and @clcat120 I’m always curious about what others see & appreciate in the variations of ‘like’ cuts.

    I asked JA to release the 1.61ct I that I posted earlier about with the inclusion on the table. I just cannot not see it, and I think it may bug me. I wouldn’t mind it was disguised in the sides somehow, but right under the table like that ... no.

    I did find another ‘I’ that is the same carat weight as the J (which I still have on hold pending a gemologist assessment) but a smidge smaller in actual mm size, that I am really liking for the slightly wider windmills along with wider pavilion facets and how they seem to light on/off (it looks to me like a nicer ‘hall of mirrors’ effect). There is not yet an ASET for it, but I have requested one, and will post it as soon as I get it. But I’d love to hear others initial thoughts based on this video itself for now, if you’re inclined to take a look and share.

    https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/asscher-cut/1.60-carat-i-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-5429192

    Assuming the ASET looks good, I think I prefer it (this new ‘I’) over the J when watching both move (though I still love that J’s smaller table and taller crown). It’ll have to be a really great ASET though, as it’s a bit more than I was originally planning to spend, but it’s very pleasing to my untrained/unprofessional eye. :shifty:
     
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  18. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Dec 7, 2018
    I do too.

    The look does seem to happen with some crown height given other characteristics. I have never worked out technicalities either.

    In colour also - www
     
  19. LLJsmom
    Ideal_Rock

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    by LLJsmom » Dec 7, 2018
    I like it. It's got some nice, wide facets. I can't wait until you get it. I am curious about how you will like it.
     
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  20. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 7, 2018
    Late to the game here, but just wanted to say my asscher has a flat crown and I love it.

    I don’t know what the difference is
     
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  21. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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  22. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Dec 8, 2018
    Personally speaking I do quite like the look of a larger table/flatter crown - I think it's the 'deep pool of shimmering facets' kind of look that appeals :) even if it's not as good in terms of light performance!
     
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  23. diamondseeker2006
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by diamondseeker2006 » Dec 8, 2018
    Wow, ok, I am the opposite! I think higher crowns and smaller tables add SUCH beauty to any well cut diamond! I'd never buy a large table, flat crown diamond because to me they are not well cut and were cut more to maximize weight. So in modern cut asschers, I set 65 as my limit on the tables, and these fall into that range.

    Here is my antique asscher and how the small table allows more of the crown to show.

    IMG_0094 (Edited).jpg

    I honestly do not have a picture that specifically shows the beauty of a higher crown from the profile view, but you can get a little idea from this picture. I just cannot see how a flat crown stone would look good from the side, and in a ring, you certainly do see the stone from different angles.

    IMG_0169.JPG

    I like the J due to the table and crown, but I am not sure I love the overall cut. I do think the newer I color one looks better cut than the first I color one, and I guess I favor it over the J due to higher color, clarity, and better cut in general.
     
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  24. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 8, 2018
    I was going to tag you! I know you like smaller tables, higher crowns!
     
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  25. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 8, 2018
    714FBFB5-8A70-471F-8776-CF2519006F7E.jpeg

    Let’s face it— they are all gorgeous.


    Here is my large table, flat crown

    0872BE4E-11CA-47C1-9518-6380CCA34971.jpeg 5F8D745F-6B51-4ED5-8409-EB642A331696.jpeg 5E36BF1E-2056-4694-8899-918F47C57F27.jpeg EA045AE5-5115-4586-9F36-2FA61DD7955D.jpeg
    D3F0DCD3-85E6-4F93-8369-7C97958644FB.jpeg
    I’m off to try and salvage my awful nails! I need a nail intervention stat!
     
  26. AV_
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by AV_ » Dec 8, 2018
    Well...

    I have these two other things saved at JA:

    WWW & WWW

    - a three-stone with a center cut much like the .5D & two flat/reflecting sides in the style of the .8F is growing into a dream.


    @whitewave You & I both: straight-up step facets & short/unpainted nails !? Not going to take macro shots of mine, sure bet ,(
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
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  27. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 8, 2018
    @AV_ I’m going to stop apologizing for them. My hands are my hands and that’s that. Nothing works on them. :mrgreen2:
     
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  28. clcat120
    Shiny_Rock

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    by clcat120 » Dec 8, 2018
    I still recommend you getting real videos of both stone... ask them to show it in the way like this one (https://www.instagram.com/p/BaKdoMynM7W/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=jo8uti7vzprc). This is my ring. When you see the first picture there, you will NOT buy the stone. However, I jumped on it when I see the second video.

    There are really no two step-cut that alike. You need to see the stone just 360 degree in one position (like all the JA or other online videos) but 360 degree from all angles!
     
  29. the_mother_thing
    Ideal_Rock

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    by the_mother_thing » Dec 8, 2018
    @whitewave Your asscher ring is stunning, and don’t feel bad about your hands; mine are so stinking dry and cracked right now, and I nearly bi all my nails watching the Georgia/Alabama game last weekend. :cry2:

    I keep envisioning a ring like @diamondseeker2006 ‘s beauty, but with a couple mods (aside from the obvious size difference) ... I just luuuuuurrrrvve that clean & classic deco look. :love:

    I haven’t purchased either diamond yet. JA is getting a GG assessment on the J and an aset for the (new) I. I am really torn though based on the videos alone, which I’ve had spinning in split screen on my iPad numerous times so I can view them both at the same time and see which one my eye is more drawn to. I like the cut and brightness of the I, but love the tall crown and tiny table on the J.

    Maybe I will get lucky & hit the lottery and splurge on this beauty. :love:
    https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...cher-cut/10.02-carat-vvs2-clarity-sku-5575826
    FB0F76F6-9D7C-45A4-A524-A2C3584C4B86.jpeg
     
  30. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 8, 2018
    Lol, love the 1.8 mil stone!

    I do agree you have to see asschers in person anyway.
     
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