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To Re-Certify or Not??? AGS or GIA ??

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
My diamond currently has an AGS Cert that was done in Oct. 2005. It was not graded on "cut" because (from what I am told) cut wasn't considered as important "back then". They began adding cut grading in 2006 and therefore including it on the reports.

I'd like to re-certify my diamond, so as to have this information when I go to sell it. Wouldn't most buyers want this info?? I'd like the info as well....

I have POURED through the topics and read hundreds of posts and yet here I am, still unclear.

It seems like most of the TRADE people here agree that the two labs are comparable. The only info I found with regard to discrepancies is 1) the human aspect and 2) AGS will grade up and GIA will grade down if cut or color is in the middle.

It also seems the PUBLIC perception (as many websites/bloggers/jewelers have helped drive home this opinion) is that GIA is superior (stricter) and countless times I see consumers posting requests for GIA ONLY certified diamonds. After reading the many posts on this topic, I tend to think they are both equally great labs. BUT, since I think I need a new cert anyway, wouldn't it be wiser to get it done by GIA? It could actually get downgraded by the "halfway between" grading policies I have read about here.... I have been told by 3 local jewelers that AGS is always a grade higher than it should be on everything (so frustrating hearing and reading this repeatedly) and they hadn't even inspected my diamond. Posters here don't seem to agree as some have had that experience.

Also, grading at GIA will be $471 but brinks will charge me $275 each way :shifty:
Fedex, UPS, & UPS will not cover the amount of insurance I need and my personal insurance will NOT cover a loose stone....
Ideas here? I used to live 10 minutes from GIA in Cali (now in Dallas) and have been through the 2 week process. I'm hoping my only options AREN'T to fly there twice or use Brinks :confused:

An AGS cert would have to be done by a jeweler as they only deal with the TRADE. Not sure of the cost yet... especially given that I have a previous cert from them already.

PLEASE, anyone with an opinion, I would love to hear your thoughts, even if some oppose others....

Thanks in advance ya'll!
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,546
could you provide us with the report number and carat weight of your diamond?

ONe thing to keep in mind is that if you submit your stone for a new grade report, there is no guarantee that color and clarity grades will be the same. If there is any downgrade, you could theoretically lose hundreds or thousands of dollars + fee + shipping handling.
 

Resonance.Of.Life

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
1,298
As far as I am aware of, values-- RAP pricing and whatnot are based off of GIA color/clarity.

AGS and GIA are both reputable labs but it really depends on your stone where to send it to. Is it a branded cut? H&A? Ect ect? Might be worth sending to AGS.


Fedex/UPS do not cover jewelry unless you are a vendor as far as I am aware of. Jewelers Mutual offers insurance on loose stones, this or sending the stone to an appraiser to send to GIA or AGS (whichever you end up choosing) might be an option?
 

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
I do realize that if I submit my stone to GIA that there could be a downgrade according to what the AGS public "reputation" is. That is what I tried to convey in my original post and therefore could cause a "loss in value" but at the same time, if the public generally trusts GIA as the end all be all, NOT having a GIA Cert will be problematic for re-sale....

It is not a "branded" stone. It is an AGS certified 5.058/H/SI1, which I think based on online data for radiants would probably be a borderline ideal/excellent cut but probably one tier down and likely very good (cut grade not provided circa 2006 but depth, table, etc is on the cert). Polish/Symmetry Excellent, Culet thin.... But my issue has more to do with certification. The diamond faces up beautifully so not a problem....

I have actually listed my ring twice and NEVER has anyone had an issue with the cert not being GIA. The issue was ALWAYS with the size/inability to size. Of the 2 parties seriously wanting the ring, one was a plastic surgeon, the other an oil guy, both looking to just upgrade their SO's ring, the ONLY issue was sizing.... That said, I was dealing with a very small local reach/consumer base.....
 

Resonance.Of.Life

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
1,298
Oh, it's a radiant? I'd send it to GIA over AGS. I don't even think AGS does cut grades for Radiants.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,546
Neither GIA or AGS provides cut grade for radiant cut diamonds. It has nothing to do with that fact that your stone was graded in 2006. There is absolutely no point in sending it to GIA.

GIA provides cut grade for modern round brilliant only. PERIOD.
AGS provides cut grade for modern round brilliant and some fancy cuts (eg princess, some cushion cuts,and step cuts etc..), but not radiant.

Just look at some radiant cut stones at James Allen and check GIA/AGS grade reports. Table/Depth/Culet/Girdle. That's it. No cut grade

AGS report alone is sufficient. I don't know what your and your local's perception on AGS is. But the best of the best diamonds are often sent to AGS instead of GIA, and many proprietary diamond cuts are graded by AGS, and the most reputable vendors work with both GIA and AGS. GIA's cut grading and rouning system for modern round brilliant is deeply flawed. That's my perception on GIA
 

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
flyingpig Really incredible info and so thankful for the accurate insight... This info is precisely what I was after. There is SO much emphasis on "CUT" as now being the most important and also the deciding factor of how it will effect good or bad, the color and clarity.

In my horribly limited knowledge of diamonds in terms of % ideals a wide. sloppy, or uneven cut will produce a higher ct but be a crappy cut... wouldn't that make the cut specs important?
 

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
There IS a grading standard across the " trade jewelers" that are online AND reputable here on PS albeit not "official lab specs" for Radiants.

Accordingly, my Table of 71% is probably Very Good. Range is 70%-72% not the best

Depth, also likely Very Good. Range is 67.1% to 70%. Mine is 67.5%

Girdle... mine just states "thin". I don't have much info other than "very thin" is too delicate and not ideal.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,859
Hi Hollywould,

So you have a Radiant-shape, 5.05 Ct., H-SI1, with AGS-report of 2005. For some reason, you apparently wish to sell it, you have already tried (without luck) and you are wondering about re-certing it.

If that is the correct summary, please allow me to give you the overall picture.

1. Whom are you hoping to sell to?

Just a quick estimate, but wholesale, this is approximately a $50K-stone. In all honesty, I think you will be hard-pressed to find a private person willing to lay down such amount to another private. Aside from the potential problem of logistics and awkwardness of handling the actual transaction, most consumers will simply not trust the entire transaction.

According to me, your best hope is offering it to a professional. Still, you will find that many will not want to stock this kind of stone, as it is likely a slow-mover freezing up too much capital. A jeweler likely will only buy this if he has an agreement with a wholesaler or cutting-house taking it over.

Even then, it is not the end of the problems. Lately, we see more and more stolen diamonds re-appear in the market, and police-forces in various countries are actively following up such cases. On top of this, there is the problem of money-laundering, and the FBI together with Europol organized an international police-conference last Summer, where the potential use of diamonds to launder money of drugs-trafficking and even terrorist-organizations was the topic. I was invited to speak there, and it is a potential problem the authorities take very seriously. As a consequence, an intelligent jeweler will want proof of how, where and when you purchased or obtained this diamond as well as a lot of background-info on you personally. I trust that you can provide this, but do not be surprised if you get such questions.

2. The selling-procedure

Having a new grading-report is not going to change the stone, and you will likely be selling this to a party far more knowledgeable about diamonds and basically not interested in the report, only in the diamond. I personally see no benefit in you spending money to get a new report first.

Instead, when you find a party interested, that party will want to send it to a lab, even if it is only to check that you did not re-create a synthetic diamond matching an existing report. I would thus advise to agree with that interested party for final price to be based on the grades coming out, and the cost of the new report being at the expense of the buyer.

In summary: your main problem is not what price you will get for this diamond, it is finding somebody willing to deal with you.

Live long,
 

Resonance.Of.Life

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
1,298
You mentioned the lack of cut grading on your previous AGS report from 2005. AGS still doesn't assign cut grading to radiants, that is the reasoning behind my short response to you. There wouldn't be a reason to send it back to AGS. Thus my suggestion if you wanted to re-cert, to send to GIA. Was trying to be helpful.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
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2,546
If your main reason for re-certification is out of curiosity and self-interest, again, I personally don't see any point. But it is upto you.

However, I do see some merit if your reason is also for re-selling purposes.

First, a dual certed stone by AGS and GIA is a thing. Some vendors use this as a market tool if a stone is dual certed. It just gives the buyer another reassurance and more confidence with the purchase, especially when he/she spends tens of thousands for a 5.0c+!! stone. If GIA also grades it H SI1, then it is TRUE H SI1 from two of the most reputable labs. Plus, it appeals to more potential buyers. Not many people know about AGS. GIA dominates in the North America market.

Second, if I am a buyer of your radiant cut stone, I would be concerned of the fact that it was graded more than a decade ago. Who knows? There could have been some damage to the stone (eg chip on girdle or significant abrasion affecting polish/finish) during 12 years of your ownership. This is always a concern, at least to me, with pre-loved jewelry and diamonds. A second grade report from a more recent date provides another level of assurance.

Paul as a trade member gave you great advice on selling.

Thin girdle is OK.
The depth seems OK
You cannot assess cut quality based on the table alone for any diamond, especially for fancy cuts, especially for radiant cuts. This is exactly the reason why GIA don't do cut grading on fancy cuts.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Please read and re-read Paul Antwerp's post as this is the most useful reply you have. There is no point getting the
diamond graded until you have a serious buyer. A buyer wants to see the diamond being processed as in being sent
whilst they are interested to the lab. Otherwise it could be a fake diamond with a copy GIA report.

The other thing is there is no Lab cut grade for Radiant Cuts.

In any case in 12 years things can change, even if there is a cut grade. Some round diamonds which were graded by AGS as AGS0 later became the equivalent of AGS1 (a lower grade) when cut grades changed and that was in the last 12 years. This would
not have affected a radiant as they do not get cut grades from either lab to this day.

Another thing not mentioned is some try to consign their diamond with a jewler and pay him to show diamond in his window.
 

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
Thank you all for your responses. It is so amazing to have access to such knowledgeable and helpful people!

Paul, I have my moments where I want to sell my ring and then the moment passes and it goes back in the jewelry box... lol

I am aware that the wholesale for my diamond is 50k and it is always nice to have someone else agree with that figure that I have often been told. There are two jewelers in NYC who have offered that as well so I know I can get that amount for sure (they have both seen the stone).

I have had the diamond since 2010 not 2005 when it was graded. I have all of the paperwork and receipts which I provide to anyone that requests it and the jeweler who made my ring is very reputable.

I have had a lot of luck (interest) from private parties when I have been in my selling mood. A plastic surgeon and an oil guy were the latest and both were willing to fly to me without hesitation. When I lived in San Diego I sold a 90k round solitaire privately without issue. When they see the $105,000 price tag on my receipt and know that will pay just over half of that, it just becomes a matter of details.

What has been a hindrance is that I was selling the ring SET. Mount and bands and not willing to separate. The bands inter-lock with the main ring. It's a size 4 1/2 and cannot be re-sized. That eliminates a lot of people. The last girl which was a few weeks ago, needed a size 3.75 and was obsessed with "trying" to make the ring work. She is considering having the bands re-made.

My goal is to find a couple that loves the ring and won't have to pay retail and for me to get a little more than wholesale... a win-win.

Anyway, the cert has not been an issue with the people who have been interested or at least no one has said so. I do think the diamond should have an updated cert after reading the suggestions here and will go with GIA. It will be quite interesting to finally see the two labs opinion's side by side!

Thank you all so very much for taking the time to respond with such well thought out and helpful comments :clap:

Just curious if anyone knows why the cut on radiants isn't graded?? I did not know that :think:
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,546
Just curious if anyone knows why the cut on radiants isn't graded?? I did not know that :think:
A modern round brilliant(MRB) behaves rather predictably based on its proportions: table, crown angle, pavillion angle, star facet length, lower girdle length etc. However, this proportion based cut grading cannot be applied to many fancy cuts. Therefore, GIA does not grade any fancy cut.

AGS's cut grading, however, is based on light performance based on 3-D tray tracing. It scores a stone in four sub categories: contrast, dispersion, brightness, leakage. So AGS is able to provide cut grading for some fancy cuts as I mentioned. The problem with radiant cut is that it just performs, at least I think, very poorly in AGS's grading system. ASET images for radiant cut stones often show too much green and leakage, although it does not mean radiant stones are ugly. It is just very hard to quantify the beauty of radiant cut stones.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 10, 2002
Messages
4,607
Hollywould|1481854881|4107635 said:
It could actually get downgraded by the "halfway between" grading policies I have read about here.... I have been told by 3 local jewelers that AGS is always a grade higher than it should be on everything (so frustrating hearing and reading this repeatedly) and they hadn't even inspected my diamond.
I have never read about the 'halfway between' or 'always a grade higher than it should be on everything'. Over the years, it has
been written on this forum though that GIA are usually harder on Color and AGS are usually harder on Clarity. Most experts on here, meaning appraisers and jewlers, seem to say that both labs can go higher or lower than the other and both have an allowance in their grading written standards.
We see people here referring to the reports as certificates but they are not, they are only reports, the labs do not certificate or guarantee anything about the grades, they are only opinions by trained professionals but still opinions as it is written there is no
infallible system of grading.
 

Hollywould

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
13
Very interesting info flyingpig and Pyramid. I always love when the experts chime in because the opinions of us laymen confuse the heck out of me!

I am so impressed how you people know your stuff and are willing to share! :dance:

Gonna go check out some of your other posts as well as Paul's :read:
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,859
Hi Hollywould,

Please understand that, when submitting your stone to GIA, you are not testing one lab against the other. You are merely asking another opinion on one stone. To some extent, the choice of that particular stone is already biased.

We have already established that it is a stone with a considerable value. As far as worldwide market goes, there is no reason why such stone should come with a report of AGSL. The main reason a dealer, wholesaler or cutter gets a report from AGSL is to get the better cut-quality recognized. As this is not a factor with your stone, there must be another reason why the professional owner at the time chose to sell it with AGS-paper over GIA, which in that size and shape is most probably easier to sell worldwide.

I have no idea why, but a wild guess is that lab-shopping was a factor at the time.

Fast forward ten years to today, you should not see submitting it again as a test of labs. In all honesty, if you send that stone to AGSL today, you might not get the same grade. If that stone silently already went to GIA in 2005 (without results known), there is no guarantee you will get same GIA-results today. In any case, the best you will get out of this is a current opinion on today's stone.

Live long,
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,838
Your objective seems to be to find a document that will help you sell it for more than you could get from a dealer. That is to say, you want to retail it. That's ok, I understand, but it's harder than it looks.

Gaming the labs is a problematic sort of task for reasons that Paul has outlined but, all things being equal, most dealers prefer to sell using GIA branding for stones like this these days. It’s for the same reason that realtors think all houses should be painted beige. It's not that it's better than any other color or that it makes the house any better, but takes one thing off the table in the negotiation and it reduces possible areas for buyer resistance. This was true in 2010 as well, but it’s more so now.

Lab fees from AGSL are about the same as what you’re seeing at GIA although you may be able to save money by going through a dealer no matter what lab you choose. Most dealers have different shipping and insurance alternatives available. Also remember the cost of removing and resetting the stone as well as he repair of any possible damage to the mounting that this may cause. Expect at least several hundred dollars here. Prices vary quite a bit and you might want to bear in mind that the best craftsmen are rarely the cheapest.

The above is also part of the reason that stones like this are almost always sold unmounted. It’s possible that the new owner will have the same taste and even be the same finger size as your bride, but there’s nothing to be gained by limiting your potential customers base to that. It’s easier to take pictures and display a mounted stone in a store if you’re going to go that way, so it doesn’t hurt to keep it in the setting or reset it, but you are not increasing your sales price in a significant way by doing this. No matter how you package it, it’s extremely likely that the new owner will take it out and use it as a component in their own special thing, not yours.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,280
Oh, goodness, I agree with Neil that rarely is someone going to pay $50k+ on a diamond and want the current setting, especially if it can't be sized. You are drastically limiting the pool to whom you might sell. Second hand settings are worth very little. If you want to sell the diamond, sell the diamond and don't require the buyer to love your settings or wear a 4.5 ring size!

I will just add that I think getting a current GIA report would be good if you want to attempt a private sale. I would not buy a diamond with a 10 year old report as the diamond may have had damage since then. So since it would be unmounted for grading, I'd sell it loose and just offer the setting for a extra amount if someone wanted it.
 
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