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thoughts on this EGL USA?

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
So it is an EGL USA H SI1, 2.04 Ct.

I will be seeing it in person from a jeweler in LA, don't yet know the price. the guy knows my budget, so we'll see what he says.

57% table
61.5% depth
35 crown angle
40.6 pav angle
ideal cut grade, ex/ex sym/polish
no fluorescence
attached is a photo of part of the cert

What do you guys think this ought to cost if it is eye-clean? I know its an EGL USA H, so it's probably a GIA I/J. Still, that would put it solidly in the 13.5-15k range on JA.

Once i see this and the 2.5K SI2 i ordered from JA purchased for 12,000 dollars, i'll be able to make a value decision. Your judgement on the diamond's specs would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!
fofo

2016-06-08.jpg
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Okay. Well the proportions, if accurate, are in a good range.

Personally, I'd have the vendor send it to GIA for you. You pay for the GIA lab report plus the current price of the stone if you buy the stone.

Alternately, I'd want a SARIN and an idealscope of the thing plus a GREAT independent appraisal.

The problem with EGL, even EGL USA, is that they aren't consistent. So while ON AVERAGE the are two color grades off. AVERAGE means some are accurate, and some are 4 grades off.



As for pricing. I can't help you there. They are a bad value in general.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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fofolala|1465449245|4042061 said:
What do you guys think this ought to cost if it is eye-clean?
Total Price 19474.41 CAD ShapeRoundCarat Weight2.04 ctLab / Cert IDEGLUSA / US 912986302D

That's about 15~16k USD

That is the price from the virtual inventory. Is it a good buy?? that's a whole another discussion.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Why are you looking for such large stones?

I just don't understand it. Your lady isn't requiring a huge diamond.

You have a lovely budget for a FANTASTIC 1.8 and 7.8mm stone at a true GIA J. Or a 1.7 at I color.

I even picked out several nice ones for you. What happened with this one: http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-8391102-1.94-carat-Round-diamond-J-color-VS2-Clarity.aspx?sku=8391102&utm_source=pricescope.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com It will look EXACTLY like a 2 carat stone.

I mean... I don't understand.

Is it a peer pressure thing? Do you friends or hers have really big stones?

Have you heard her say that she really values a 2 carat 'bragging right' kind of thing.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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flyingpig|1465451321|4042075 said:
fofolala|1465449245|4042061 said:
What do you guys think this ought to cost if it is eye-clean?
Total Price 19474.41 CAD ShapeRoundCarat Weight2.04 ctLab / Cert IDEGLUSA / US 912986302D

That's about 15~16k USD

That is the price from the virtual inventory.
15354.73 USD.

And NO FREAKING WAY would I pay that. Hahahahahaha. Anything over 2k has to be GIA, I'm sorry, in a round brilliant.

Have the vendor send it to GIA. With those proportions there is SOMETHING wrong with it that it wasn't sent to GIA. Because GIA stones are worth so much more.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
Gypsy,

let me see if i can explain it:

it has nothing to do with the girl. she has no expectations.
there is no keeping-up-with-the-joneses. no pressure whatsoever from the outside.

the only pressure i feel is from me. and its not to satisfy some particular need or quality. its that i LOVE the game. That's what this is: a big game.

I get a ton of pleasure out of getting a great deal on a hotel with points or finding shoes for 10 dollars more off than expected with a combo of coupons. the game is doing better than just "good." and i like to play it.

This industry is particularly fascinating. none of the diamonds are exactly alike, though they all have inherent characteristics that are estimated and measured, but differently depending on who saw them. Being able to optimize all of those characteristics based on the supply available to me is fun, and having to deal with the risk and error in the available information makes it more exciting. The goal is to find that hidden gem (pun intended) - a diamond that greatly exceeds the value in comparison to all the other diamonds in the same budget. I wouldn't be as proud to have a great stone on my soon-to-be-fiance's finger, because I can just buy that without much extra thought. She'll love it all the same, whether its 1.8 or 2.2 or 2.5. The thing that would make me really happy is to find something better than I should have been able to get. She'll love it, and I'll feel that all my research, reading, and learning about this industry was put to good use and that it resulted in something more than just getting a 90%ile stone in the price.

I know it may be a pipe dream, but damnit I'm going to keep trying! Mostly because I'm having a lot of fun doing it and I'm learning a lot from you guys along the way :)

I hope that makes sense.

(i should add, i really like the price break stuff; the 1.94 stone you found tickles me in the right ways because i have no problem thinking of it as 2ct but know that i got a better deal than a 2)

Now, a question: where did that price that flyingpig produced come from? is he privy to a database that I'm not? teach me!! :read:
 

Shellcm

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
265
By not buying from a mall/maul, you're already winning/playing the game/getting the best deal etc etc.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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fofolala|1465454314|4042088 said:
the only pressure i feel is from me. and its not to satisfy some particular need or quality. its that i LOVE the game. That's what this is: a big game.
I like this game too.
I know its an EGL USA H, so it's probably a GIA I/J. Still, that would put it solidly in the 13.5-15k range on JA.
This sounds reasonable at a glance. But you see. If the EGL stone happens to be GIA I SI1, it may not be a big deal. You are right about 13.5-15k range. But what if it is an eye-clean J SI2?? now we are talking a potentially sub 10k stone. Diamond cutters are not fools. If the stone is potentially GIA H SI1 or I SI1, they would have sent it to GIA to make more profit and make it an easy sell. There are two reasons why they sent it to EGL USA, using common sense. It is either the cutter is a complete fool with poor business decision making, or the stone has no chance for GIA H/I SI1.
Now, a question: where did that price that flyingpig produced come from? is he privy to a database that I'm not? teach me!
Each vendor's virtual inventory is slightly different. Most PS vendors only show GIA/AGS and IGI stones.
http://www.diamondexchange.ca/
You provided carat weight, clarity, lab, cut grading, and table %. The rest is easy.

Yeap. It is a fun game
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
thanks for indulging me. and educating me
the # of objective variables trying to measure a subjective outcome is particularly fascinating.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
40,198
Listen I get it.

NONE of my jewelry (except my center diamond) is worth what I 'should' have paid for it. With finished jewelry (much easier to get a steal) and the fluctuations in the market and being a jewelry hound who loves pre-owned pieces I have gotten some exceptional deals.

I HATE paying retail for jewelry. HATE IT.

But my engagement ring is different. It's just VERY different. And it is different with loose stones.

But you DO want a deal and want to play the game AND you have time and the inclination we can see what we can do to help you.

It just helps to understand the goal.

What metro area are you located in. There might be a few ideas.

Are you open to pre-owned? That's where a lot of the deals are at.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
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Messages
93
Gypsy. I'm glad we're more-or-less on the same page; or at least in the same chapter...

I'm not opposed to Pre-owned, but I don't like the idea of buying tiffany's. The brand name has no intrinsic value about it that changes the stone.

I live in Los Angeles. I went to a couple jewelers downtown in the jewelry district who showed me some nice sparkly things. Didn't love any, but I plugged the one I like best in the HCA. Score of 4. meh.
 

diamond_newbie15

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
27
it has nothing to do with the girl. she has no expectations.
there is no keeping-up-with-the-joneses. no pressure whatsoever from the outside.

the only pressure i feel is from me. and its not to satisfy some particular need or quality. its that i LOVE the game. That's what this is: a big game.
I'm certainly not one of the experts on this forum, but when I read this, red flags just shot up for me. It's not about the girl? It's about scoring the biggest deal and it's a game? What if what the market says is a great stone isn't what your girl would think is a great stone? Sure, you scored a great deal but you might fail to make your girl happy.

She might have no expectations, but you're framing this as if her tastes and preferences don't matter at all. She might naturally react negatively to a 2.5 diamond of lower color and clarity. Who knows? Maybe it turns out that she naturally has eagle eyes and is color sensitive. You're playing with fire bro.

Personally, I very recently paid a premium for both the stone and setting I wanted (WF and Leon Mege); the best stones and craftsmanship aren't available at a discount. By insisting on a "great deal," you're foregoing the very best (which you can afford) in my opinion.

EDIT: all of the extra thought and effort you want to invest in this process to make the ring special is misdirected. All the extra thought and effort shouldn't be spend on maximizing value as much as figuring out what would make your girl happy and getting that right.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
93
say I were to bring the EGL USA diamond (assuming its priced well to start with) to this guy?
http://www.jewelryappraiser.net/

would that work?
Looks like he does sarin and idealscope.
I figure i could bring him both the K and the EGL.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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diamond_newbie15|1465482173|4042172 said:
it has nothing to do with the girl. she has no expectations.
there is no keeping-up-with-the-joneses. no pressure whatsoever from the outside.

the only pressure i feel is from me. and its not to satisfy some particular need or quality. its that i LOVE the game. That's what this is: a big game.
I'm certainly not one of the experts on this forum, but when I read this, red flags just shot up for me. It's not about the girl? It's about scoring the biggest deal and it's a game? What if what the market says is a great stone isn't what your girl would think is a great stone? Sure, you scored a great deal but you might fail to make your girl happy.

She might have no expectations, but you're framing this as if her tastes and preferences don't matter at all. She might naturally react negatively to a 2.5 diamond of lower color and clarity. Who knows? Maybe it turns out that she naturally has eagle eyes and is color sensitive. You're playing with fire bro.

Personally, I very recently paid a premium for both the stone and setting I wanted (WF and Leon Mege); the best stones and craftsmanship aren't available at a discount. By insisting on a "great deal," you're foregoing the very best (which you can afford) in my opinion.

EDIT: all of the extra thought and effort you want to invest in this process to make the ring special is misdirected. All the extra thought and effort shouldn't be spend on maximizing value as much as figuring out what would make your girl happy and getting that right.
Lets not over/under interpret the OPs intention. Hes doing this for his lady. Thats given. Hes just enjoying this entire experience and process, and seeing whats the best for BOTH of them, while maximizing value. Hes researching and studying hard. I went thru a similar process. The end result is a ring that is special to both my fiance and myself.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
Diamond_newbie15, I respectfully disagree.

She and I looked at stones together. She didn't notice color. She didn't even have a preference between rb or a square-proportioned radiant. She liked that they sparkled. We talked about settings too. I know what she wants, and I know I have a lot of room to play with. So I get to play!

It's obviously all about her, but the actual stone selected isn't what is going to make her happy. The gesture and it's meaning will. I said it in my very first post: this is a trivial pursuit When you take a step back, the whole nature of buying a mined, cut, not-that-rare piece of the earth at astronomical prices because of pre-determined views of what makes one more objectively beautiful than the other is quite funny.

I contend that there must be small amounts of wiggle in the market. There are SO many stones, and WF etc. can only see so many of them. Having a seal of approval from a brand like WF or BG doesn't give me any sense of satisfaction. I'm sure they're fantastic stones, but the premium you pay for their stones is cost of doing what I'm doing for myself: searching. They did the searching for you. I'd rather find one on my own.

Unrelated, but as for setting, i like this guy: http://www.danhov.com/eleganza-744/ze138
edit: so does she.
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
10,315
I come from a family of value hunters so I get it. My brother, particularly, was a big time value hunter - Fat Wallet and the whole deal. I sometimes got to travel with his wife, my sister-in-law, and he was our unofficial travel consultant because he always found us the most incredible deals. But... he found deals for places we wanted to go. He didn't get us outstanding accommodations in Pennsylvania when we wanted to be in Washington, DC, if you get my drift. A great price on something that you ultimately don't love or use is money down the drain just as much as not paying attention to price and over-paying for something you do want.

There is more than one way to "Win" the shopping game. Getting the biggest/most value for your dollar is one. Getting an exceptional product for your money is another. So I'd suggest you consider this - get your GF a diamond in the size range she wants, but knock her socks of by getting her the most beautiful stone in that size range, within your budget, that you can possibly find. You may not get the largest size per dollar, but you'll be winning the game by not falling for the inferior stones that so many stores would have you buy. And you'll win a little more of her heart by not sacrificing her feelings when it comes to the size of the diamond she prefers - and which she will be wearing - to your need to "win." In other words, by putting her feelings into your equations and by putting her feelings ahead of yours.

Where do you find such a best possible diamond? Gypsy has picked out a few that look good on paper for you. Also, several people here have raved about their Crafted by Infinity diamonds, and as it happens there is a store that carries Crafted by Infinity diamonds near you. You can see them in person, compare them to comparable non-brand but still certified diamonds and decide for yourself if they knock your socks off enough to count as a "win" in the outstanding beauty and sparkle department. The store is in El Segundo, of all places -http://www.jewelrysourceusa.com/.
 

diamond_newbie15

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
27
She and I looked at stones together. She didn't notice color. She didn't even have a preference between rb or a square-proportioned radiant. She liked that they sparkled. We talked about settings too. I know what she wants, and I know I have a lot of room to play with. So I get to play!
I was under the mistaken impression that you were going to surprise her with the ring so you can disregard much of what I said. However, I'll stand by my thoughts that a 2.5 K SI2 is a risky pick. She may not have expressed a preference when you guys took a look at stones together, but she'll live with the ring for a long, long time and get to know the stone she owns much, much better than one she looked at for five minutes in a store.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
So we're all clear, here's my goal:

Under budget (12k)
biggest stone
eye clean
white up-facing
very sparkly and fun to look at.

I mean... none of that is novel. I think everyone is looking for those basic characteristics. There are many diamonds that will fulfill that set of characteristics. Its a matter of finding one that seems to exceed the others in a meaningful way.

Perhaps i'm not expressing myself well. of course I'm trying to get the best value, but I'm of course also trying to do that for a diamond that I'll be proud of.

VRBeauty - I just booked a 750 dollar hotel for 125 + 10k points/night for 3 nights with a credit card signup bonus in buenos aires. We're flying to Italy on free tickets with a similar deal., the point is I know what I'm after but I also want to feel like I won the game. I'm sure others can relate. I'll go take a look today or tomorrow at Crafted by Infinity. Thanks for the suggestion.

diamond_newbie15 - You're right. The K might be wrong. But I won't know till I see it. And its the first stone I felt was a candidate for beating the system. Its 21% under rap according to one jeweler who I chatted with about it. He is rather interested in seeing it now too, because he thinks its a gamble but agrees it might be a big win if it isnt visibly cloudy. And the cost of being wrong is small (bank wiring cost, floating 12k for a couple weeks to JA, and time).
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
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fofolala|1465483575|4042184 said:
D

I contend that there must be small amounts of wiggle in the market. There are SO many stones, and WF etc. can only see so many of them. Having a seal of approval from a brand like WF or BG doesn't give me any sense of satisfaction. I'm sure they're fantastic stones, but the premium you pay for their stones is cost of doing what I'm doing for myself: searching. They did the searching for you. I'd rather find one on my own.

Unrelated, but as for setting, i like this guy: http://www.danhov.com/eleganza-744/ze138
edit: so does she.
That's not exactly accurate. WF and BG also have stones cut for them, to their exacting specifications. The same is true of Crafted by Infinity. And while you might be able to find that rare under-valued diamond in general on-line stock, your chances of doing so are very rare. Remember that in your search, you're not just competing against WF and BG, but against hundreds of experts up and down the supply chain who know intrinsically what to look for.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
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May 29, 2016
Messages
93
VRBeauty - Fair enough. I would say, though, that I'm not competing against jewelers. I'd be foolish to think I can beat them. After all, they're setting the prices. I hope I can outperform the majority of consumers, though, and I can only feel reasonably confident in having done so with patience, research, help, and time.
 

JDDN

Ideal_Rock
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I'm following this thread and it's getting fun, lol ::) .

OP, I think it's fantastic that you are enjoying this hunt because so many guys come on here totally stressed out. And rightfully so as it can be stressful and choosing a ring is a big deal. So much emotion, promise, symbolism wrapped up in a very expensive tiny item! It's great that you and your GF went ring shopping together and explored some setting styles too. That right there is a huge leg up on choosing something she'll love. One thing though.....the diamonds at WF, BGD, CBI are marked up with a premium not because they did the searching for you. Those diamonds were cut with precision and very, very specific parameters in mind and the vendors offer a lot of perks. They also provide all the performance images for you up front so you know what you are getting. Two 3 carat MRB's with the same angles on paper will look very different in real life. In other words, you can't pick a diamond on James Allen and think it's going to be the same in terms of sparkle, fire, scintillation, etc. as a CBI diamond. Looking at a diamond on it's report won't tell you if the girdle is dug out, or if there is painting of the girdle, etc. all of which will affect the way the diamond performs. I'm not saying this so that you'll buy a CBI diamond, I'm just highlighting some differences in the way two seemingly similar diamonds can perform so that you'll be aware when choosing.

I love the setting you linked. I love kite settings! I will say that the pave on the stems of that ring will rub against a wedding band if she wears one so she'll have to wear a spacer ring between the two.
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
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fofolala|1465485308|4042205 said:
VRBeauty - I just booked a 750 dollar hotel for 125 + 10k points/night for 3 nights with a credit card signup bonus in buenos aires. We're flying to Italy on free tickets with a similar deal., the point is I know what I'm after but I also want to feel like I won the game. I'm sure others can relate. I'll go take a look today or tomorrow at Crafted by Infinity. Thanks for the suggestion.
Way off-topic here, but my brother would have related! His first trip abroad with his future wife was a week or so to Scotland and Ireland - entirely free. How? Some bank was offering the trips if you opened an account and used their credit card for something like $100,000 in purchases in one year. He got the card, took out a cash advance for the amount required, paid it back within the grace period, and took his girlfriend on a wonderful trip. The bank soon closed that loophole! ;-) BTW my SIL's engagement ring is a genuine art deco ring that he got from someone to settle a debt. It's a real beauty and she loves it (and so do I).

Back to the topic at hand - as JDDN said, enjoy the hunt!
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
93
JDDN|1465485799|4042212 said:
I'm following this thread and it's getting fun, lol ::) .

OP, I think it's fantastic that you are enjoying this hunt because so many guys come on here totally stressed out. And rightfully so as it can be stressful and choosing a ring is a big deal. So much emotion, promise, symbolism wrapped up in a very expensive tiny item! It's great that you and your GF went ring shopping together and explored some setting styles too. That right there is a huge leg up on choosing something she'll love. One thing though.....the diamonds at WF, BGD, CBI are marked up with a premium not because they did the searching for you. Those diamonds were cut with precision and very, very specific parameters in mind and the vendors offer a lot of perks. They also provide all the performance images for you up front so you know what you are getting. Two 3 carat MRB's with the same angles on paper will look very different in real life. In other words, you can't pick a diamond on James Allen and think it's going to be the same in terms of sparkle, fire, scintillation, etc. as a CBI diamond. Looking at a diamond on it's report won't tell you if the girdle is dug out, or if there is painting of the girdle, etc. all of which will affect the way the diamond performs. I'm not saying this so that you'll buy a CBI diamond, I'm just highlighting some differences in the way two seemingly similar diamonds can perform so that you'll be aware when choosing.

I love the setting you linked. I love kite settings! I will say that the pave on the stems of that ring will rub against a wedding band if she wears one so she'll have to wear a spacer ring between the two.
Girdle dug out; painting on the girdle... see, so many fun new things I don't know about! I find it ironic that an industry selling symmetric, transparent, sparkly things can be so one-sided, opaque, and analytical.

Good to know about the setting. I also really love the unplated white gold look, which I think would match a lower color-grade diamond well (hence my K tolerance). I'll be honest - I saw an M in person, next to an H, and thought it was a K. My girl saw a 2kt G and a 3kt J (just to get a sense of shape), and she didnt realize the color difference until I pointed it out to her (probably a mistake).

For being an analytical guy, I'm just not that color sensitive. Fortunately it doesnt seem my girl is either.
What is i think beneficial is I have high risk tolerance in the search (meaning I'm willing to return a risky purchase if it doesnt cut it).
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
Let me add this: thank you to all of you. Whether you're sourcing me links to diamonds, encouraging me, educating me, expressing concern, or questioning my motives and goals, it is all helpful.

You're exposing me to my deficiencies in knowledge, you're showing me different ways to look at the problem. In some ways, the hints of disdain or annoyance are helpful, too, in that I know I'm rubbing some of you the wrong way. I'm sorry to those who feel I am being annoying or missing the point.

If someone is bored, experienced in this search, and lives in LA and wants to go play the game with me in person downtown or elsewhere, I'd be more than glad to (and buy you lunch as thanks).

In any event, thanks for the many ways you're all helping!
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
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Messages
93

JDDN

Ideal_Rock
Premium
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That second stone (the J) is very nice. The first one not so much.

A quick note about color. Not sure if you and your GF took the two diamonds outside or around lighting that wasn't the store lighting, but color can look very different in real life (aka not in jewelry store lighting). Also the bigger stone you get the more saturated color will become and thus more apparent. It's good that you will be able to spend time with the JA K stone. Take it around in different lighting and times of day and under the shade.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
93
Good point JDDN. The jewelry store actually had warm, incandescent lighting. They were proud of that.

More to your point: we took the J outside. side by side with the G. She was very meh about the difference!
 
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