THIS IS REALLY WEIRD

[MommaBear]

I been working with GOG, trying to find a diamond.
I was sent via email, a stone''s GIA cert. & quoted $12855(bankwire)

I thought it would be a good stone but wanted
to do a little bit more comparison shopping. So there
I was on PS searching for diamonds with the same
dimensions as the one GOG one. By chance, I happen to find
one with the EXACT SAME dimensions (but from a different vendor)!
What are the chances of that happening. Then I viewed the cert.
on this other diamond.....



IT''S THE SAME DIAMOND.
The bankwire price for it is $11851
thats a difference of $1004!

Can anyone explain this to me?

 

[JohnQuixote]

No worries.

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/12/1/Why-are-there-several-dealers-offering-the-exact-same-stone.aspx

 

[MommaBear]

Oh wow. I thought that maybe the case. But didn''t realize the pricing could be so different.
Do people who come across this go with the cheaper price or will the original vendor price match?
How does that work?

 

[hikerchick]

I would ask the original vendor to price match. If they say no, I would order it from the cheaper vendor . . . but that is just me because I don''t care about upgrade policies and such but if you care about that, then make sure the new vendor offers the "extras" like upgrades.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 5/10/2007 11:33:34 PM
Author: hikerchick
I would ask the original vendor to price match. If they say no, I would order it from the cheaper vendor . . . but that is just me because I don't care about upgrade policies and such but if you care about that, then make sure the new vendor offers the 'extras' like upgrades.

I agree; talk to GOG

 

[MommaBear]

I don''t think I''ll want to upgrade, but who knows... DF might strike it rich and spoil me rotten (crossing fingers)

I''m in the midst of asking GOG to price match or if they will. I still haven''t seen the Ideal-scope and GOG has not seen the diamond in person yet.

The new, cheaper vendor does not seem to have and upgrade policy. At least not that I found. They do have the 30 day return policy, a FREE appraisal, and gift packaging.. woweee...

anyway. Does anyone know if UNION Diamond has an upgrade policy

Thanks for ALL the info.

 

[MommaBear]

"Lifetime trade up policy
This policy is for all diamonds featuring our "Lifetime Guarantee" and is stated on each individual diamonds web page. Diamonds qualifying for lifetime trade up are round & square Hearts & Arrows diamonds, princess cuts, asschers, cushions and any diamond listed with our "Lifetime Guarantee".

that was taken from GOG''s webstie...

since my diamond was not on GOG''s website and a rep. scouted it out for me, it doesn''t qualify for the lifetime guarantee, does it? I''ll have to email GOG for the 100th time today...

Thanks again

 

[Cehrabehra]

I cannot speak for gog, but the way *I* see it is that the lower price is more of a drop ship price, you pay it, you get the stone, you evaluate it.... where the people at gog do a lot of analysis on the stone... they take close up pics of the inclusions, they do light analysis, run helium and sarin reports on the stones... and at the end of all of those evaluations, if they think the stone is good enough, they''ll recommend it to you and give you their upgrade policy. Now, all of that said, I''d still ask them to pricematch, they very well might... or at least provide an accurate explanation unlike mine which is speculative

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 5/11/2007 11:45:30 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
I cannot speak for gog, but the way *I* see it is that the lower price is more of a drop ship price, you pay it, you get the stone, you evaluate it.... where the people at gog do a lot of analysis on the stone... they take close up pics of the inclusions, they do light analysis, run helium and sarin reports on the stones... and at the end of all of those evaluations, if they think the stone is good enough, they'll recommend it to you and give you their upgrade policy. Now, all of that said, I'd still ask them to pricematch, they very well might... or at least provide an accurate explanation unlike mine which is speculative

I am guessing this is exactly the case.

The difference is buying a $50 t-shirt at Polo, or buying the same one at an online discounter for $30, where you can't try it on. The storefront will have higher costs, better service, personalized attention, and the bells and whistles that make people buy from then in the first place. GOG, IMHO is one of those companies that offers even more than any consumer would ever need, but for PSers, just the right amount of info! Union is fine, but they will likely never see the stone and that savings will be passed on to you.

If you feel that price is of importance, then why pay more for the same thing? If you feel service is worth the cost, and you want to see it live, then if the discount is not given, your choice to make is, how much is it worth to you. But know that everything behind the scenes does cost money, including the talent behind those counters that often give advice and field calls all day long without making that sale. Business is not a charity, so profit must happen for a business to continue, and if you like their business, the profit you pay keeps them in business for years to come... It is your money, you know how best to spend it.


Good luck!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I limited my search to in-house stones at both GOG and WF because they did have the stones there and could supply all the info. But I don''t think either of them will give a lifetime trade-in on virtual stones they call in for someone. They will do all that analysis if you want it, but you''d have to expect the price to be more than you''d pay from a drop ship vendor.

 

[Kim N]

Date: 5/11/2007 1:11:05 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I limited my search to in-house stones at both GOG and WF because they did have the stones there and could supply all the info. But I don''t think either of them will give a lifetime trade-in on virtual stones they call in for someone. They will do all that analysis if you want it, but you''d have to expect the price to be more than you''d pay from a drop ship vendor.

DS, I believe that WF will offer lifetime trade-up for all AGS and GIA certed stones that they sell.

 

[goldenstar]

My diamond was scouted for me by GOG and it does have the lifetime trade up. In my experience, all of the detailed analysis that GOG did was worth the cost. I knew that I was getting an awesome stone and when it arrived it blew me away. It was stunning! I also sent all of the GOG analysis paperwork to my insurance company, and that will be very helpful if I ever need to make a claim. GOG''s customer service was great and I''m so happy I went with them.

 

[MommaBear]

Well, GOG got back to me...

Here''s the scenario:
I told GOG: Let me know what you can do. If you can price match than great.
I am quite interested in the diamond and would like you to view it for me.
Also to get it''s ideal-scope images.
[GOG]
Ok…here is what I can do…I can bring in this stone for you…I need you to cover the shipping up front…
Shipping on a diamond like this would be about $75. If you purchase the diamond, that gets rolled into
the purchase price. I will match his price…can you send me a link to the stone so that I can see that
price posted? Not that I don’t believe you…I just want to see it from James Allen to show my boss.
When the stone comes in we will provide you with an ideal scope image and a sarin report. The trade
up and buy back policies will not apply.

I was also given another stone to look at... so now i need to decide between the two...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/11/2007 11:55:02 PM
Author: MommaBear

Well, GOG got back to me...

Here''s the scenario:
I told GOG: Let me know what you can do. If you can price match than great.
I am quite interested in the diamond and would like you to view it for me.
Also to get it''s ideal-scope images.

[GOG]
Ok…here is what I can do…I can bring in this stone for you…I need you to cover the shipping up front…
Shipping on a diamond like this would be about $75. If you purchase the diamond, that gets rolled into
the purchase price. I will match his price…can you send me a link to the stone so that I can see that
price posted? Not that I don’t believe you…I just want to see it from James Allen to show my boss.
When the stone comes in we will provide you with an ideal scope image and a sarin report. The trade
up and buy back policies will not apply.


I was also given another stone to look at... so now i need to decide between the two...

I don''t speak with anyone but jonathan there...

 

[Rhino]

Greetings Mamabear and all,

Glad this came up so I can help clarify the issue which will be spelled out more clearly on our new site upon launch as it will feature the options I'm about to explain.

There are generally 2 ways of buying a diamond on the net.

1. Most websites offering diamonds for sale simply take a list (which most jewelers/vendors have access too who subscibe to the search engines common to jewelers who do participate on the net) and place a single digit markup on the stone to broker it. Brokering a diamond involves nothing more than collecting a check/wire/credit card from you and instructing the manufacturer to ship the diamond to you. There is no exam. There is no cherry picking. No checking for inclusions/photography/etc. There is absolutely no time spent with the diamond (and really limited time with the client in many cases) as there is nothing to communicate beyond the price and trying to interpret a fuzzy fax of a GIA report. There is no expertise involved on behalf of the seller. Time = money so if all that's involved is collecting a check and shipping the diamond it's quite easy for us to match or beat any advertised price you'll see on the Internet on any given diamond.

2. The second model is one we have pioneered on the net (starting back in 98') and does represent the minority however most of our clients, when given the choice choose this option. This option costs more because it involves a lot more time and expense in selecting the stone. With this option you...

a. Get our gemological expertise on the diamond in question. If you've read through our educational content you'll understand we cover alot of ground when we inspect a diamond.
b. Get professional photography of the diamond in question using the best available equipment for the job (all professional slr photography).
c. If its a fancy shaped stone we will shoot a video file for you accurately depicting its optical charactistics of brightness, fire & scintillation if we have another here to compare it to. If nuances such as bowties are present we can capture that as well as any other nuances contributing to its optical characteristics in both diffuse and spot lighting.
d. Inspection of surface breaking inclusions and whether they're healed or open.
e. Colorimeter analysis.
f. Microphotography showing exactly what makes the diamond the clarity grade it is.
g. Virtuallly every kind of report/image that is possible to generate on a diamond. Name the technology. We own it.
h. All of this information is included both on a published web page for that individual diamond plus in a printed report (2 copies) which in the end protects you should the diamond/ring ever get lost or damaged. The insurance company is only obligated to replace what is described in the report. No report on this planet is more detailed.
h. On certain shapes, if the diamond gets a 2 thumbs up from us we'll back it with lifetime trade up and buyback policies. We are considering a "fully bonded" option at this time but no conclusion has been reached just yet.

This is not to mention DiamXray photography, ASET analysis, BrillianceScope, Helium Reports, Sarin & Octonus 3D models and many of the other services we perform when inspecting the diamonds we bring in for clients. On our new site we will offer the option for folks to purchase one way or the other as we will be featuring the "virtual inventory" as well but if we don't have to do all of the above it saves us alot of time and expense which we are happy to pass along to you. It is our opinion (and from what we've heard from many of our clients) that the small amount more for those services, many which are exclusive and/or rarely found all in one location is a small price to pay considering the magnitude of the purchase involved.

Tim offered you an alternative I didn't mention which, for a non-refundable deposit to cover the cost of shipping we'll sell you the stone at the cheapest advertised internet price and include a genuine FireScope or IdealScope image plus a basic Sarin which we would send to you in email. If a person doesn't care for all the services we offer and policies we provide they have the option (on brokered stones) to purchase it whatever way they wish from us.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,

 

[Regular Guy]

Jonathan, you're the man....

Date: 5/12/2007 1:41:39 PM
Author: Rhino

Glad this came up so I can help clarify the issue which will be spelled out more clearly on our new site upon launch as it will feature the options I'm about to explain.

I don't think I can remember a time when you're not about to come up with a new website.

We are considering a 'fully bonded' option at this time but no conclusion has been reached just yet.

What's this mean..

h. All of this information is included both on a published web page for that individual diamond plus in a printed report (2 copies) which in the end protects you should the diamond/ring ever get lost or damaged. The insurance company is only obligated to replace what is described in the report. No report on this planet is more detailed.

Nevermind that you have two (h)s...I want to know when your guarantee will be inclusive of the Mars option.


Regards,

 

[Rhino]

Hey Ira,

Thanks for the response. In response ...

I don''t think I can remember a time when you''re not about to come up with a new website.

Hehe... I know.

It''s my own discontentment as I seek to make things more user friendly. I believe I''ve finally found a company I can stick with now for the long haul. From 98 till March of 06 it was a site I had made on my own and lacked a lot of the robust features available with datadriven sites (php, asp, cold fusion, etc.). Honestly I hate relinquinshing control to another company but I''ve kinda found a way to have my cake and eat it too with regards to web development/publishing. Time will tell.

We are considering a ''fully bonded'' option at this time but no conclusion has been reached just yet.

What''s this mean..

"Fully bonded" is actually a Fred Cuellar invention meaning the option of a lifetime full refund on the purchase. Currently on our stones with "Lifetime Guarantee" we offer a lifetime buy back of 75% of the purchase price at any time. I tell guys they have to think of it as a rental (LOL) in a sense if indeed things turn out to be temporary. A fully bonded option would come at a premium though. Not quite what Fred charges but one none-the-less.

h. All of this information is included both on a published web page for that individual diamond plus in a printed report (2 copies) which in the end protects you should the diamond/ring ever get lost or damaged. The insurance company is only obligated to replace what is described in the report. No report on this planet is more detailed.

Nevermind that you have two (h)s...I want to know when your guarantee will be inclusive of the Mars option.

Consider it done.

Kind regards,

 

[Regular Guy]

I think that's a scoop.

GOG

No report on this planet, or on Mars, is more detailed.

BTW, on the fully bonded thing...coincidentally, it's been discussed here, on page 3 of this thread, recently, too.

eta...who wants to speculate with me. I say Rhino has 2 H's above, because he wasn't willing to go as low an an I

Regards,

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 5/12/2007 4:55:36 PM
Author: Rhino
Currently on our stones with 'Lifetime Guarantee' we offer a lifetime buy back of 75% of the purchase price at any time.

Rhino,

If it's not proprietary type information, how popular an offer is that? Do you get a lot of takers? Is the trade-up program popular?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rhino]

Hi Neil,

Thanks for the question. Na... not proprietary and I don''t mind sharing.

Trade-up program. There are enough people who enjoy this and take advantage of it that we will always continue to offer it. I know on our site we have listed limited shapes we offer the trade-up policy for but I''ve included others if the stone was something I wouldn''t mind stocking. My only hesitation is with certain fancy shapes that are very low in demand like marquise and pears. Sheesh, I recall in the 80''s when they were so popular. Remeber those days?

Buy-back: Not as many folks take advantage of this but those who have absolutely love it and its a win-win for all parties really. I''m sure you''re aware of the situations that arise when a young man has an engagement ring he doesn''t need anymore and is not interested in trading it in. Most pawn shops or 2nd hand dealers (at least in this neck of the woods) generally offer roughly 15-30% of what the diamond was typically purchased for so most guys in this boat are stuck taking a bath or trying to sell it on their own. Many don''t want to bother selling it on their own so most opt for the sell. Our clients who have found themselves in this situation really appreciate getting back 75%. However if they''re not in desperate need for the funds I offer them this next option.

Consignment: If they don''t need the money right away I ask them if they want to leave the diamond on consignment with me and we feature the stone both in our store (pretty heavy traffic) as well as the net. Most of the stones we sell tend to move pretty quickly so generally the wait isn''t too long and we only make a commission. The client gets his funds after the refund period has ended and the price is dictated by the current market however we make suggestions based upon how fast (or slow) he wants to move the product.

Fully bonded option: Frankly the only folks who have inquired about this are only those who have read Fred Cuellars book and we get the request from time to time. Once our new site launches I''ll have the ability to hold polls (so I can get consumer input regarding certain diamond comparisons and answers to questions I''d like to know from the general public) so once I conduct that I''ll have a better idea how the public likes/dislikes it and how much they feel that is worth to them.

Kind regards,

 

[denverappraiser]

I would probably avoid the ‘fully bonded’ term if I were you. It’s not out of the question that this is even a trademark but, at the very least, it binds you to someone else’s terms and conditions that you may not want to be involved with and that are highly confusing to shoppers. Obviously the merchant needs a certain amount of this in order to protect himself but it’s in everyone’s best interest to be transparent about what the program is and what it is not..

As you point out, there needs to be a fee off some sort to cover the risks that you’re assuming with this offer and I’ve been recently contemplating how a sensible merchant can assess and manage those risks. The risks I see are primarily that you will need to buy back a stone that you’ll be unable to sell in a reasonable amount of time for at least as much as you obligating yourself to pay and that your cash flow will be strained by the need to buy for cash during a slow selling cycle thereby requiring you to either liquidate goods at an even lower price to raise money or to pay interest and use someone else’s money to tide you over. Both are fundamentally insurance questions and the solution, just like with the insurance companies, is to maintain a reserve fund for the purpose of covering ‘losses’.

There are some key variables in doing the math that I’m struggling with.

#1, What can be expected from a future projection of diamond prices? Obviously predicting is difficult, especially when it’s about the future, but it’s mandatory for this exercise. This sort of prediction is what insurers do for a living and at least so far, it looks like a pretty good business.

#2, Given a particular diamond price curve, how is this likely to affect seller behavior? A certain number of people, probably a vast majority, aren’t going to sell you back their diamond no matter what happens to the prices. It’s their wedding ring and they love it. They move out of state, they forget who you are, they break or lose them or they just don’t care to play the game. Some will return it anyway for reasons like you describe and their decision isn’t really going to be based on the price. Others will be inclined to watch your prices like the day traders watch the stock market and will attempt to capitalize on every fluctuation. It seems important to develop a prediction model of this in order to appropriately set the prices and terms.

#3 How will individual seller behavior change over time? I think it’s pretty obvious that you can expect more returns in the first 5 years than between, say, years 25 and 30. This means that the required reserves associated with a particular diamond will change over time. As with the above, a considered prediction of this seems important.

#4 Is there any ongoing obligation made on the customer to continue participation? If so, what? In the case of the fully bonded folks, there is an ongoing fee to remain registered and therefore to remain eligible for the program. Insurers charge an ongoing premium to keep a policy in force. Many stores with this sort of offer require periodic inspections by their staff and the ‘fee’ becomes disguised as advertising or in repair costs. Obviously the front end charges can be less if there are ongoing premiums or some other form of revenue being collected over the life of the obligation. Charging for the whole thing up front has a certain convenience for both sides but it’s not necessarily in the best interest of either of you. As a merchant, you will need to fund (ie charge) for the entire life cycle of the obligation and a customer who takes advantage of it early on will not be receiving the full benefit. Similarly, a customer who has lost the ring or otherwise become ineligible will be receiving no benefit from their participation.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver