Things to think about when insuring an EightStar

[Greentree]

Remember those two EightStar diamonds I had custom cut for earrings? Well, I took them to an independent appraiser to get them appraised for insurance
purposes. When I received the appraisal, he had basically appraised them as a Brick and Mortar item. I complained, "This might buy one earring, but not two!".

Turns out he was completely unfamiliar with EightStar. "EightStar? Isn''t that an Indian owned firm?" --his exact words. It''s true if I accepted his
appraisal, I could legally hold him responsible for the inaccuracy, but that''s something I''d never do. Better to just do it right to begin with. I finally ended up going out of state to get an accurate appraisal.

So if you are paying a premium for your diamond because it''s an EightStar, or for some other reason, take a couple of tips:

1. Find out in advance if your appraiser is familiar with EightStar and understands that they are not produced in the ordinary way and have their
own marketplace.

2. Insure your EightStars with a company that will agree to insure them as EightStars and not "like kind and quality".

 

[WinkHPD]

You are totally correct, your appraiser could find himself legally liable for the shortfall, A hearts and Arrows cut is NOT like kind!

You are also correct in getting it done correctly now instead of trying to pin it on someone else later!

Good job!

Wink

 

[Rhino]

While I completely understand your frustration I can also empathize with the appraiser as well. It is an appraisers job to *research the marketplace* to find out and learn about various cuts and also how they are priced and sold on the market place.

BUT ... assuming this appraiser did such (which he obviously didn't) how does an appraiser, even a knowledgeable one, identify an Eightstar?

I mean ... think about it.

You really can't do it with an H&A viewer since there are other stones being cut now with very similar optical patterns. Most appraisers do not have or have even heard of an idealscope or FireScope. FireScopes are only available to 8* distributors and while 8* does sell their "symmetry scope*, is an appraiser going to spend over $1000 on it considering he may see or appraise very very few 8*'s in the course of his lifetime?

To my knowledge there are only 2 ways to identify an 8*.

1. A FireScope or similar red reflector technology.
2. A knowledge of the tolerances used in the actual cutting of an 8* which Richard does not tell to *anyone* except for perhaps 8* cutters in training. Besides, very very few gemologist's even have the equipment to measure the minor facets to comment intelligently regarding their opinion.

I'd go easy on this guy because there are very few gemmologist's in this country (or world) who could positively id an 8* even if they knew about and researched it.

Regards,

 

[denverappraiser]

Greentree,

I'm sorry to hear that you got a bad appraisal.

In order to appropriately determine a value, it's important to first define the property. As Wink points out, H&A is not a sufficient definition of Eightstar's products. This is true of all branded items, not just Eightstars. If you pay a premium to get an XYZ design, it is simply not like kind to replace it with someone elses knockoff, even if the knockoff could be described by some else as better. This judgement is simply not the question at hand. The real issues for the appraiser are determine that this is, in fact, a genuine XYZ, what an appropriate price would be to replace it with similar one in the usual marketplace, and to write a description that is sufficient for the insurance to make a correct replacement if the need arises. This same rule applies to Rolex, Tiffany, Armani, and any other branded item. Like kind means replacement must be with genuine items. Perhaps the appraiser was unaware that these were made by a particular brand and that they should be therefore defined as such. As you know, this is often a terribly important detail. If it's possible to demonstrate that they are a particular brand (with the paperwork supplied by eightstar), the appraiser should include this in their value determination and this information should be included in the report. It's unreasonable to expect the appraiser to know and recognize every brand name but it is part of their due dilligence to reasearch these things.

The ownership of Eightstar is, of course, irrelevant.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rhino]

Hey Neil,

Good to see you participating on the forums. Your presence is much welcomed. Just curious ... if a person brought in an 8* and didn't present any documentation stating such, would you be able to identify it? If so, how?

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[Superidealist]

You're making this way too hard Jonathan. It's easy.

 

[denverappraiser]

"
Good to see you participating on the forums. Your presence is much welcomed. Just curious ... if a person brought in an 8* and didn't present any documentation stating such, would you be able to identify it? If so, how?
"

Rhino,

I would be inclined to believe the girdle inscription unless there was some evidence to the contrary suggesting that it's counterfeit. If this was the case, I would call Eightstar and discuss with them the stone# and the identifying characteristics to see if there is a record of them cutting the stone. I would also discuss the matter with the client to see if they had any additional evidence to support the claim of authenticity.

Neil Beaty GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I hold them in my hand, close my eyes, and become one with the EightStar's magnetic resonance...

Piece of cake.

 

[WinkHPD]

It is part of my responsibility as a client of any appraiser to inform him of special circumstances that will affect the value of the item I am having appraised, this is true whether it is a branded diamond, a Rolex or a Lambogini. I agree that it is unfair to expect an appraiser to recognize or even know about an EightStar, but I am going to guess that Greentree informed him when he left the earrings that they were EightStars. If not, then he shares the blame for the poor appraisal. If he did, then the appraiser is in eggregious error for not finding out.

Wink

 

[Greentree]

Aw Wink, he knew they were EightStars. I didn't give him the EightStar certificates, true, since he was grading them anyway, and I wanted his own opinion. I did ask him to verify the laser inscriptions which he did.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if he's one of these guys who resents the waves EightStar is making in the maketplace. Quality of cut is beginning to change the way people buy diamonds and more than a few jewelers out there do not like it one bit.

 

[denverappraiser]

Rich,

I'm guessing this technique works best when performed in a new RV parked at the beach. Unfortunately, I'm about as far from the beach as it's possible to get so I have to use less refined methods. Besides, I'm on Atkins, I don't eat cake.

Neil
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[Rank Amateur]

Maybe the saying should be "Piece of bacon."

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 8/17/2004 4:44:04 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

I hold them in my hand, close my eyes, and become one with the EightStar's magnetic resonance...

Piece of cake.
----------------

Rich you put me in stitches.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Neil, I can't hear you. I'm trying to resonate with one of Rhino's stones, and am finding it distinctly deficient in positive energy vibrations.

Must be one of those traumatized stones which just came out of the concrete jungle (Manhattan). I'm going to have to discount it at least 20 to 30%.

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 8/17/2004 4:31:08 PM denverappraiser wrote:

'
Good to see you participating on the forums. Your presence is much welcomed. Just curious ... if a person brought in an 8* and didn't present any documentation stating such, would you be able to identify it? If so, how?
'

Rhino,

I would be inclined to believe the girdle inscription unless there was some evidence to the contrary suggesting that it's counterfeit. If this was the case, I would call Eightstar and discuss with them the stone# and the identifying characteristics to see if there is a record of them cutting the stone. I would also discuss the matter with the client to see if they had any additional evidence to support the claim of authenticity.

Neil Beaty GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver----------------

D'oh... didn't think of the girdle inscription!

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 8/17/2004 2:58:47 PM Superidealist wrote:

You're making this way too hard Jonathan. It's easy.----------------

Actually what I was thinking was if it could not be identified by the laser inscription?

 

[Rhino]

----------------
On 8/17/2004 5:58:18 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

Neil, I can't hear you. I'm trying to resonate with one of Rhino's stones, and am finding it distinctly deficient in positive energy vibrations.

Must be one of those traumatized stones which just came out of the concrete jungle (Manhattan). I'm going to have to discount it at least 20 to 30%.



----------------

 

[Greentree]

Typical PriceScope thread. A couple of serious remarks and then it just spins out of control....

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 8/17/2004 5:30:12 PM Greentree wrote:

Aw Wink, he knew they were EightStars. I didn't give him the EightStar certificates, true, since he was grading them anyway, and I wanted his own opinion. I did ask him to verify the laser inscriptions which he did.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if he's one of these guys who resents the waves EightStar is making in the maketplace. Quality of cut is beginning to change the way people buy diamonds and more than a few jewelers out there do not like it one bit.----------------

Knowing of you I was pretty sure he did!

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he just did not do his homework. Did he agree to rewrite the appraisal with a proper number, or did you agree not to pay him?

Wink

 

[Richard Sherwood]

RockDoc has his "strain" test, I've got my "traumatized/non-traumatized" checkup.

I'm gonna make a fortune...

 

[ep6585]

Rich - did my diamond pass your "traumatized/non-traumatized" checkup? If not, should I ask Rhino for a refund?

LOL

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
Typical PriceScope thread. A couple of serious remarks and then it
just spins out of control....
-----------

Sorry Greentree. It's a good thing you've got a sense of humor.

You make a good point. Appraisers need to be aware of branded diamonds bringing more money just like they should be award of designer jewelry bringing more money.

Insurance companies need to be educated to this fact as well, and the responsibility often falls on the consumer who wants to make sure their item is adequately covered. The consumer needs the appraiser's assistance in this matter.

I find that many appraiser's (as well as jewelers) are out of touch with the marketplace. The very nature of their business (self-employed, one man operations) tends to create isolationism unless they fight it by continuous education and networking.

Neil and I were just talking about this the other day. The internet is a great tool for keeping up with things, along with industry organizations and regular show attendance.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
Rich - did my diamond pass your "traumatized/non-traumatized"
checkup? If not, should I ask Rhino for a refund? LOL
-----------

Oops! John caught me goofing off on PriceScope while I should be appraising his diamond.

John, not too worry. Your diamond has practically set my office on fire. I'm beating out the flames now.

It has a fiery, excitable nature. Must be one of those South African stones, cut by a passionate Israeli cutter.

You're going to have the best weekend of your life after you give this to your girlfriend.

 

[quaeritur]

You boys just crack me up!

So I followed Superidealist's link and found this... It looks like a loupe and IdealScope in one... thought it was interesting.

 

[Superidealist]

You might find this thread interesting, then, quaeritur.

 

[Greentree]

The banter is really kind of fun, Richard. Pricescope reminds me of the old days of amateur radio. Everbody had a 'handle' and you might converse with someone off and on for years without ever actually having met them in person.

Hmm, just listened to a voice mail left on my phone. The appraiser wants me to call him. You don't suppose he monitors PriceScope and recognized me?

 

[Greentree]

Well, whadayaknow. They contacted an EightStar dealer and have decided to send me an adjusted appraisal. Well, that puts that to bed.

I still think it was a good idea to go to an independent appraiser, controversy notwithstanding. I got confirmation that what I bought was exactly as advertised. That's pretty important when you're spending a lot of money, but know perfectly well you can't distinguish a diamond from one of its many imitations.

Well, maybe I could distinguish an EightStar from a imitation since the imitation doesn't have the index of refraction required to make an EightStar. I don't think you could make an imitation EightStar. But you know what I mean...

 

[Superidealist]

Greentree wrote:
Well, maybe I could distinguish an EightStar from a imitation since the imitation doesn't have the index of refraction required to make an EightStar.

Whatever EightStar may do, I greatly doubt that they change the diamond's index of refraction.

 

[Greentree]

You misunderstand. I said I doubt anybody could make an imitation EightStar from, say, white sapphire. The index of refraction is different enough that the pattern, if achieveable at all, would look "funny" --either squashed or elongated. So if somebody represented a stone as an EightStar and you couldn't find the "normal" pattern, it must not be a diamond or at the very least, not an EightStar. Why anybody would take the time and trouble to try to make an EightStar out of non-diamond material is another matter.

The reason I sweat real vs imitation is a jeweler once put an imitation diamond in my wife's old ring so she'd have something to wear temporarily while her new one was being made. It wasn't Moissenite and it wasn't CZ. It was some other name I can't recall. I couldn't distinguish it from a real diamond. Since then I don't trust myself to identify a genuine diamond. That's where the Graduate Gemologist comes in.

 

[Superidealist]

Greentree wrote:
But you know what I mean...

I guess I didn't.