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The GOP Is Asking For Trouble

AGBF

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The GOP is asking for trouble in Ohio. Newspaper articles are describing a tense atmosphere as police worry about shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge, and yet Governor John Kasich professes that he is incapable of restricting arms carried close to the convention. Ohio's open carry laws trump (pun intended) public safety and sanity with the Republicans. Notice that they have no problem making sure the protesters cannot fend off tear gas, though. Great strategy. The police can tear gas people who can machine gun them back in self-defense.

"Though demonstrators and others in the convention district have been barred from possessing a range of items, including gas masks, there was no prohibition on the brandishing of firearms.

On Sunday, the president of Cleveland’s police union called for additional measures to protect the security of the event, and urged Mr. Kasich to suspend open-carry gun rights. The governor’s office said Mr. Kasich did not have 'the power to arbitrarily suspend federal and state constitutional rights or state laws.'"

AGBF
 

ksinger

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AGBF|1468842689|4056631 said:
The GOP is asking for trouble in Ohio. Newspaper articles are describing a tense atmosphere as police worry about shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge, and yet Governor John Kasich professes that he is incapable of restricting arms carried close to the convention. Ohio's open carry laws trump (pun intended) public safety and sanity with the Republicans. Notice that they have no problem making sure the protesters cannot fend off tear gas, though. Great strategy. The police can tear gas people who can machine gun them back in self-defense.

"Though demonstrators and others in the convention district have been barred from possessing a range of items, including gas masks, there was no prohibition on the brandishing of firearms.

On Sunday, the president of Cleveland’s police union called for additional measures to protect the security of the event, and urged Mr. Kasich to suspend open-carry gun rights. The governor’s office said Mr. Kasich did not have 'the power to arbitrarily suspend federal and state constitutional rights or state laws.'"

AGBF
To be fair, this situation can't be totally laid at the feet of the GOP, although conservatism does tend to go with expanded gun rights.

What we're seeing everywhere is the inevitable result of the last 30, but mostly the last 8 years, of stoking fear of the other, overblown claims that 'bama is gonna take yer guns!!, and ridiculous open carry all-you-have-to-do-is-have-a-pulse gun laws at the state level. Mix that in with police who were always a bit twitchy, but have grown up in and deeply imbibed the same level of fear as the rest of the country, shooting first and asking questions later, a bunch of men who have military training, and a whole group of people who feel they are targets due to their skin color, and you have a recipe for disaster. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see this one coming.

This week is going to be interesting to say the least. I fully expect gun deaths and riots of some sort.

A friend of ours and his son, are in Cleveland right now, covering the event for a local news outlet. The father was going to take a gas mask because he will land in the hospital at the very least, or die perhaps, due to serious lung issues. We are worried about the tear gas issue, and wish he hadn't gone.

http://www.reddirtreport.com/election-central/rdr-rnc-cleveland-rocked-week-trump-politics-protests-and-more
 

redwood66

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Governor Kasich, as he has said, cannot suspend state laws as governor. This is not a GOP issue as you say Deb. If we allow politicians to capriciously suspend laws as they see fit for "safety" then where does that stop?

I am not a fan of open carry because I feel if I have a weapon, you do not need to know about it. But it is the law of the land in many states including my own.

As far as the last 30 or 8 years, guns are not the problem. The breakdown of the family, lack of personal responsibility, lack of mental health care, are part of the problem. And if I am to take the majority view of guns from PSers and dems, then it seems that confiscation of all/most guns would be the desire? Except for people who NEED them that is. Then why on earth would I think that the president would have a different view? Many don't believe him when he says he does not want to take your guns.

ksinger I hope your friend stays safe at the event.
 

MollyMalone

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Deb, I don't know the source of your information, but as a transplanted Buckeye, I can tell you that people there cannot freely tote machine guns; because those are automatic weapons, they are considered "dangerous ordnances" as defined by Ohio Rev Code § 2923.11(E) and (K)
http://law.justia.com/codes/ohio/2015/title-29/chapter-2923/section-2923.11/
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/ohio/

Last night in Cleveland went fine.
http://www.cleveland.com/rnc-2016/index.ssf/2016/07/ready_or_not_its_rnc_time_and.html
How I hope that relative calm prevails for the next 4 days.

P.S. Steve Loomis, the head of the Cleveland Patrolmen's Association, is on record as saying his call for Governor Kasich to suspend Ohio's open-carry laws is being made without regard for established law: "I don't care what the legal precedent is, I feel strongly that leadership needs to stand up and defend these police."
http://news.trust.org/item/20160717184335-e4py7

There are other reasons why it seems unlikely that you and Loomis are kindred souls, e.g.,
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2016/07/cleveland_police_union_head_lo.html
 

MollyMalone

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redwood66|1468849803|4056652 said:
* * * I am not a fan of open carry because I feel if I have a weapon, you do not need to know about it. But it is the law of the land in many states including my own. * * *
You don't have to openly carry a handgun in Ohio, redwood (although it seems to me such a visual demonstration that you're carrying has more of a deterrent effect on would-be criminals than secretive carrying). You do need a permit to conceal-carry, but Ohio is a "shall issue" state.

Hope you don't mind this informational aside, Deb.
 

redwood66

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MollyMalone|1468852373|4056658 said:
redwood66|1468849803|4056652 said:
* * * I am not a fan of open carry because I feel if I have a weapon, you do not need to know about it. But it is the law of the land in many states including my own. * * *
You don't have to openly carry a handgun in Ohio, redwood (although it seems to me such a visual demonstration that you're carrying has more of a deterrent effect on would-be criminals than secretive carrying). You do need a permit to conceal-carry, but Ohio is a "shall issue" state.

Hope you don't mind this informational aside, Deb.
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. I realize it is not a requirement but I choose not to open carry. I feel it creates an atmosphere that does not help. 911 calls to police from a concerned citizen about a "man with a gun" waste their time and resources better used elsewhere. Open carrying of long guns is just ridiculous and mostly used to attempt to make a pro 2A point. It exacerbates an already inflammatory situation. Many gun owners do not agree with my view.

Now if we could just have people comfortable with a responsible person openly carrying and not call police every time they see a pistol on someone then it might change my mind. It is a deterrent to criminals surely and maybe if I lived in a big city with a large dose of criminal activity then I might consider it.
 

AdaBeta27

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I rather think Kasich is just being a sore loser and a p rick. He probably should call out National Guard to be a presence just in case somebody decides to start something. I'm not very worried about blacks rioting, because the black leaders are very proficient at reading the tea leaves and deciding to call enough enough before the government decides to take major action against them. I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of radicals and known disruptive elements are going to deliberately keep the lid on their people because they know that law enforcement and the gun-toting white public have already decided that if the "war" starts, it will be a mighty fine opportunity to mercilessly eradicate the disruptive elements. I'm far more concerned that some nutjob will try to kill Trump's wife or other family members. Just my $.02.
 

redwood66

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AdaBeta27|1468855748|4056677 said:
I think that a lot of radicals and known disruptive elements are going to deliberately keep the lid on their people because they know that law enforcement and the gun-toting white public have already decided that if the "war" starts, it will be a mighty fine opportunity to mercilessly eradicate the disruptive elements.
I am not sure I agree with this based on this article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-police-blackpanthers-exclusive-idUSKCN0ZS1Z7
 

AGBF

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MollyMalone|1468851094|4056655 said:
Deb, I don't know the source of your information, but as a transplanted Buckeye, I can tell you that people there cannot freely tote machine guns; because those are automatic weapons, they are considered "dangerous ordnances" as defined by Ohio Rev Code § 2923.11(E) and (K)
http://law.justia.com/codes/ohio/2015/title-29/chapter-2923/section-2923.11/
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/ohio/
Thank you, Molly. I was playing fast and loose with a small amount of information. In other words, I extrapolated from guns to machine guns for poetic reasons. I am glad to know what the actual law is, however, and even gladder to know that automatic weapons are not included in the free-for-all. Calling them "dangerous ordnances" sounds appropriate.

AGBF
 

ruby59

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On the news they showed one guy with a very large gun in his holster. I am not familiar with guns but it looked like some type of assault rifle.

And imo, that is way over the top to be allowed to be carried openly in public.
 

redwood66

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AGBF|1468857472|4056694 said:
I was playing fast and loose with a small amount of information. In other words, I extrapolated from guns to machine guns for poetic reasons.

AGBF
I am glad to hear you admit this. Because this is part of the problem with anti-gun people that I have. To make it sound better and fit the narrative, like anyone can buy a gun on the internet and everyone can get "machine" guns.
 

AGBF

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redwood66|1468857885|4056701 said:
AGBF|1468857472|4056694 said:
I was playing fast and loose with a small amount of information. In other words, I extrapolated from guns to machine guns for poetic reasons.
I am glad to hear you admit this. Because this is part of the problem with anti-gun people that I have. To make it sound better and fit the narrative, like anyone can buy a gun on the internet and everyone can get "machine" guns.
I never deliberately lie here, redwood. Sometimes the way I write is just zanier or more unusual than the average person's. I don't have trouble admitting it when I exaggerate for effect. ;))

Hugs,
Deb :wavey:
 

redwood66

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AGBF|1468858259|4056705 said:
redwood66|1468857885|4056701 said:
AGBF|1468857472|4056694 said:
I was playing fast and loose with a small amount of information. In other words, I extrapolated from guns to machine guns for poetic reasons.
I am glad to hear you admit this. Because this is part of the problem with anti-gun people that I have. To make it sound better and fit the narrative, like anyone can buy a gun on the internet and everyone can get "machine" guns.
I never deliberately lie here, redwood. Sometimes the way I write is just zanier or more unusual than the average person's. I don't have trouble admitting it when I exaggerate for effect. ;))

Hugs,
Deb :wavey:
I am not saying you do but others use this same incorrect information to further their agenda because they don't care to reasearch the correct info or they knowingly use it. I was glad to hear you admitting you did not have the correct information.

:wavey:
 

Calliecake

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Republicans have stated repeatedly for the past few years that open carry laws will make us all safer. Now we are hearing they want suspend open carry during the Republican National Convention. Before anyone comes forth saying it is the police that want open carry suspended. I haven't heard any Republicans coming forward saying that Ohio citizens should be allowed to open carry around or at the convention.

Seriously how are police officers able to determine if a person is good or evil when they are walking around in crowds carrying a gun of any kind?
 

redwood66

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Many democrats support the 2nd Amendment. And I believe the request came from the police union - not any political party. I think many politicians believe this is not the time for the 2A argument based on the past 2 weeks.
 

BeekeeperBetty

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You can support the second amendment, but also support reasonable restrictions or limits as well. We don't have any guns in our house (we have small kids) but my husband likes to hunt so he owns several rifles that are kept in a safe at a relative's house. I think people have the right to own guns for sport. I don't personally hunt, and I dislike deer, elk, and antelope meat, so I don't even eat it, but I understand that some people do.

The Ar-15 is a troubling weapon, however. Being able to stockpile thousands of rounds of ammunition is troublesome, as well. In addition, handgun permits and concealed weapon permits are not very comprehensive, so just about anyone can get one. I personally know someone who is psychotic who has a concealed carry permit and handguns which are loaded on their person at all times. As a matter of fact, this person receives federal disability for mental health problems, but was able to buy guns, ammunition, and get a concealed carry permit in that person's state. This is a major problem that no one is addressing. And unfortunately, there is nothing I can do about it, either, because it is legal, and this person thinks they need it for "protection" because there is always someone after them. I'm being vague about gender on purpose, so I know my grammar isn't 100% correct.

As far as the convention goes, I have been praying that all people there will remain safe. It does strike me as ironic that the GOP who is very securely in the gun lobby and NRA's pockets are worried about safety from people who are exercising their second amendment rights. It's like they're finally realizing that nutjobs can buy guns, too, because the second amendment also applies to people are are angry, crazy, and irresponsible.

I agree with President Obama here:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/obama-to-gun-owners-im-not-looking-to-disarm-you/
 

MollyMalone

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AdaBeta27|1468855748|4056677 said:
I rather think Kasich is just being a sore loser and a p rick. He probably should call out National Guard to be a presence just in case somebody decides to start something. I'm not very worried about blacks rioting, because the black leaders are very proficient at reading the tea leaves and deciding to call enough enough before the government decides to take major action against them. I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of radicals and known disruptive elements are going to deliberately keep the lid on their people because they know that law enforcement and the gun-toting white public have already decided that if the "war" starts, it will be a mighty fine opportunity to mercilessly eradicate the disruptive elements. I'm far more concerned that some nutjob will try to kill Trump's wife or other family members. Just my $.02.
Since 1851, § 18 of the Ohio Constitution's Bill of Rights (Article I) has declared "No power of suspending laws shall ever be exercised, except by the General Assembly" - p. 4 of this PDF:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/Assets/Laws/Constitution.pdf
There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what gubernatorial declarations of a state of emergency encompass --- altho' the police union president, Steve Loomis, should certainly have a handle on that. But, e.g., even the August 2014 and 2015 State of Emergency orders issued, respectively, by Missouri Governor Nixon & the St. Louis County Executive (following the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson & the 1-year anniversary) didn't attempt to supersede the state statutes re gun possession:
http://www.sos.mo.gov/CMSImages/library/reference/orders/2014/eo14_08.pdf
http://www.stlouisco.com/Portals/8/Executive%20Order%20Criminal%20Unrest.pdf

The Ohio National Guard is in Cleveland; there also are hundreds of federal agents (e.g., Secret Service, FBI, Homeland Security, ATF) & police officers from other jurisdictions.

Just as Donald Trump doesn't speak for me, a WASP, I wouldn't assume that all black leaders are of one mind. Or that leaders of any color or political stripe can inevitably exert ironclad disciplined control over all "their people." As kenny repeatedly reminds us, "People vary"!
ruby59 said:
On the news they showed one guy with a very large gun in his holster. I am not familiar with guns but it looked like some type of assault rifle.
And imo, that is way over the top to be allowed to be carried openly in public.
I've lived for years in NYC, where we have very strict weapons regulations, and the loosening of handgun regulations is a relatively recent development in Ohio. So it's definitely weird for me to go back home and see signs like this on the front door of, e.g., Barnes & Noble (private enterprises are not required, under Ohio law, to accept armed customers or employees), but I rarely see people openly carry or catch a glimpse of a concealed handgun:

If you and I saw the same footage/photo, that guy had what appears to be a Colt AR-15. Lots of people assume that the AR in AR-15 stands for "Assault Rifle" or "Automatic Rifle", but it actually refers to Armalite Rifle, the company who designed and first manufactured it back when. Civilian versions of the AR-15 are not automatic weapons -- it's designed to fire 1 round each time the trigger is pulled. But they are self-loading, as is any semi-automatic firearm.

oh_firearms_notice.jpg
 

redwood66

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Thanks MollyMalone for all the links and the correct info on the AR-15 which most get wrong. Those signs are not popular if a business wants to keep patrons in my state.
 

AdaBeta27

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ODOT instslled the snowplow blades on their trucks, "to help keep traffic moving." In case of downed trees, they said. :lol: To be fair, the weather forecasts for about the past month have included a hazardous weather statement about possible storms with damaging winds. :lol: Honestly, Pricescope, daily life in places like Cleveland and Youngstown and Detroit is in all likelihood far grittier than where you live. Government and law enforcement in these cities deal with the same crime, gun, violence issues day in and day out.
 

AdaBeta27

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Seemed to stay pretty quiet there. Someone from the police commented that they were (pleasantly) surprised that not many people had to be jailed, and the city didn't even come close to needing all of those jail cells that they'd emptied out in advance.

Of the scuffle between the Guy Fawkes masks, BLM, KKK, and Westboro Baptist, where urine and feces may or may not have been flung or shot, amid news reports that some conventioneers had contracted norovirus, someone on another board remarked "That sounds like an episode of South Park." :shock: :bigsmile:

Oh, and the snowplows haven't had to clear any trees, apparently, either.

(Sorry, but the whole convention has been rather bizarre. :rolleyes: )
 
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