Home The Business of Being Born...

[miraclesrule]

I just watched a documentary produced by Rikki Lake last night and it was very thought provoking. I was amazed at the statistics of U.S. vs. other large developed countries. U.S. ranked last in everything important (birth fatalities and complications, c-sections, etc) and highest in cost. It makes no sense. I have seen the evolution myself of how many more women are administered pitocin, epidural, more pitocin, more epidural and then end up with a c-section due to fetal distress vs. natural childbirth which was common when I had my daughter.

I don''t know how to do a poll that would let me know your birth plan, or experience, combined with your location, otherwise I would.

My daughter will trying to conceive soon and I don''t want her to be put through the medical machinery that she probably considers to be normal now, even though she knows that I want her to have her baby at a birthing center instead of a hospital. Hell, if she can withstand Bikram Yoga as much as she does, she can tolerate natural childbirth. And that is what it is...natural.

What was your experience?

 

[Maisie]

One of my twins died during pregnancy. If I hadn''t had the medical input how would I have known that my baby was dead? My other child may have died too. I also had pre-eclampsia during my first pregnancy. Again I would have been at terrible risk without medical help. I guess for me I need the reassurance of giving birth in a hospital. It is unfortunate that pregnancy, labour and birth have become so medical and not natural though.

 

[miraclesrule]

I''m so sorry Maisie. There are no words to comfort that type of loss.

I would consider twins a high risk situation where one would want a hospital. Any complicated or high risk pregnancy would probably be better served in a hospital setting.

But the majority of births are straight forward. Even birthing centers and midwives have much of the same medical supplies needed and always have contingency plans. That happened to one of the women in the documentary. She just couldn''t do it without the epidural and the long labor so they went to the hospital during labor.

It''s just so wierd to see all my daughter''s friends and my co-workers and friends go through so much stress during pregnancy and delivery. It was never that way for me and my friends 30 years ago.

 

[Maisie]

Thank you.

I wonder if the complications were less 30 years ago. I''m sorry but I didn''t see the documentary that you were referring to. What was the infant mortality rate..... Were births more straight forward then? I bet it hurt a lot more then without the lovely pain killers we have today!

 

[miraclesrule]

That is a good question about the complications 30 years ago. I wonder if there is a study.
If you were take only the difference in complications from today in the U.S. vs. Japan, Aussie, UK, Spain, France, etc...
U.S. leads the pack by a huge margin. Also, in the other countries approx 70% of all births are with a midwife or at home, as opposed to the U.S. where they are 1% of all births.

It was interesting to watch the evolution of when births became more medical and the smear campaigns of the medical establishment against midwives and RN''s. It was also disturbing that most ob/gyn''s never see a live birth in medical school. They are surgeons, which might explain the increase in c-sections.

The legal aspects certainly explains the ridiculously number of tests that pregnant woman are urged to undergo. It is big business, but I am wondering at what expense.

When I had my daughter, they did have epidural''s available, but there was no way I was going to let someone inject a needle into my spine. I was not willing to assume the risk. LaMaze was big during that time, and without all the drugs and good pushing, my labor and delivery took only 4 hours. I didn''t have a team of medical personnel in the room either. I had one doctor, one nurse, and the Baby Daddy. I wanted to have it at home, but I couldn''t afford it. The insurance company would only pay for the hospital, which is a bit insane. My neighbor had her baby at home, right on the other side of the wall and I didn''t hear a thing. I was shocked to see her walking to the laundry room which was on the opposite side of my apt and she had no belly.

She was washing the sheets the next day.

 

[diamondfan]

Miracles, I think a bigger issues those routine situations (non high risk scenarios) that TURN high risk during labor. I know a woman who died giving birth in NYC a few years ago, she was in a hospital, but still died, she was hemorraghing and was transfused many times and could not be saved. They made heroic efforts to save her, and even if one thinks all will go fairly easily, you just do not know.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Maise the movie was about recent issues.

I really liked the movie, though as many people are going to point out is was one sided. Of course it was! It had a specific POV to promote. But it was thought provoking and it sits well with my personal philosophy. The information in the movie about more natural birthing practices (and the associated lower mortality rates and complication rates for moms and babies) in other countries was what interested me the most, as did the information provided by the former president (or whatever he was) from the WHO. Apparently, the World Health Organization says that anything over about a 10% c-section rate is considered over-use of the procedure. Food for thought!

I think it is important to remember that just because someone argues aginst the over-medicalization of childbirth they are not advocating birthing babies in a field with no intervention at all, and they are not arguing against using life-saving procedures. FWIW, in my country, government certified midwives have lower rates of mortality and complications and interventions than doctors. Such births are perfectly safe because the midwives know when to turn a patient over to the peds when intervention is required! In my mind, that is responsible use of intervention: Call the surgeons and the doctors in when it is medically required, and when things are fine, then let it be.


For your poll: we will be having a midwife attended birth, sans drugs, unless they tell me to take them (which they will in circumstances where the mother is suffering--very long labour, no progression etc.).

 

[Maisie]

I would agree that pregnancy and birth have become more of an illness than a natural thing. I have felt like death warmed up after each of my babies. I know I felt unwell when I probably wouldn''t have if I had given birth at home.

Giving birth in the UK is definitely a midwife led proceedure. You only see a doctor if things are going wrong or getting a bit risky. Pain relief is administered by the midwife (although a doctor has to write up your script). You see an anesthesiologist (eek spelling!) if you want an epidural though.

As for the testing.. don''t you agree forewarned is forearmed? I would much rather know about possible problems in advance so I would be prepared for them.

 

[Miranda]

I''ve heard of that documentary and I hope to see it sometime. It sounds interesting. It''s quite the opposite of how I feel, but, I know it is so important for some women to go natural.

As for me. Well, I''ve had three nearly identical labors. All medicated as much as possible! I am a serious ''GIVE ME THE DRUGS'' kinda gal. Pitocin? Check. Stadol? Check. Epidural? Check. Internal monitors? Check.

With my first, I was feeling very mother earth. I wanted no drugs, no IV, etc. When I was a week overdue my cervix proved to be stronger than my will. Zero dilation. Little cervical shortening. To make a long story short we ended up using a cervical ripening agent and starting pitocin with an epidural shortly following. It was 10 hours from the start of the pit drip to complete.

With #2 I was a week overdue when my water broke. No contractions started within 10 or so hours so I begged for pitocin. I really don''t like hospitals and missed DS at home so I wanted to get the ball rolling. Strong contractions began and I had the sweet epidural. Same as with DS #1, 10 hours after the pit drip, I was complete.

With #3 I told my Dr. that I was not willing to be pregnant any longer than my due date. I was overdue with both boys and know I would likely be overdue with DD. I was a hormonal, neurotic mess - which is very unlike me. I just felt like I had to have this baby out. I don''t know why and I really can''t explain it. I tend to be instinctual so I think my body was telling me something - I''m just not sure what!

We induced on my due date. I waited for the epi a bit longer because I was anemic and a c-section would likely result in a transfusion. They wanted to wait for her head to come down a bit before the epidural. I was complete, yep, you guessed it - 10 hours after the pit drip began.

Here''s the way I see it. I wouldn''t have a tooth pulled without novicaine. I''m sure as hell not gonna push a watermelon out of my heehaw without pain relief. Natural process or not. For me, medical intervention WAS the less stressful way to go. Especially with kids 2 and 3. So there''s my story. Lots of medical intervention and a happy, healthy experience. All kinds of norms apply to all kinds of women. It''s so wonderful that they can all choose to have the birth experience they want to without being judged.

I do wonder about the science involved in studies like the ones in the documentary. It''s easy to make any study reflect what you want it to. By my own admission, though, it''s not something I have looked into in 6 years.

 

[Blenheim]

For those who haven''t seen the movie, it''s available on Netflix on demand.

DD and I have very similar attitudes about birth, so I''ll refrain from repeating what she just wrote. Studies in the US on low-risk women having planned home births with trained attendants vs planned hospital births have shown that there are similar outcomes in terms of maternal and fetal death, and lower rates of interventions at home. Midwives will refer pregnant women to OBs if they become high risk (that''s what they''re there for!), and are trained to recognize when problems are arising during birth and will transfer. Home births are not recommended if the nearest hospital is more than 30 minutes away, because of the problems associated with transfering.

As for your "poll", we''re planning on a home birth with a midwife, no drugs.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

If and When...

I will be safely in a hospital...I am not going to try to be a hero and attempt to go au natural, I will certainly be taking full advantage of pain reducers and relievers...I want a peaceful birth for both myself and my baby.

 

[neatfreak]

Well...I have mixed feelings on this movie and all the statistics they throw around. Mostly because it does seem to be very one sided and makes me worry that women who truly need medical intervention will be scared off by it.

While I agree that the US has some major love with medical intervention (which isn't always a good thing!), at least some of these increased rates they speak of are much more complex than they make them out to be, like infant mortality rates.

There are a lot of things that go into this, but at least some of the discrepancy is that in the US we are more liberal with #1 who we term an "infant" vs. a miscarriage or stillbirth (in the US after 20 weeks it's considered an infant death usually and in many other countries it's 24 weeks), and also the fact that in large part due to our advanced healthcare system there are a lot of babies born who have serious complications and might not have survived in other places to be born an "infant" in the first place. There are also a lot of women waiting until later in life to have babies in the US, which raises the risks of those births (not to mention the use of fertility drugs here raising the risks even more), thus raising the infant mortality rate, c-section rate, medical intervention rates, etc.

I don't mean to explain away our suckiness in the US, because even if you take into account these other things I don't doubt that we still do worse than many countries, but it does annoy me that these statistics are not explained well generally...

 

[Blenheim]

Can we please try to stay away from loaded language? No one is trying to be a hero. We''re all doing what we think will lead to a safe, peaceful birth for our babies.

 

[peonygirl]

Miracles, I just wanted to clarify something you said. Medical students in the US see TONS of live births in the US, probably around 100. And that's everyone, not just those who choose ob/gyn and do an additional 4 yrs of training. Some of these are without pain meds (often because the women came in at 9cm dialated and there was no time). I think the movie said that few med students (or residents) see an "unmedicalized" birth. Even home births these days are getting more medicalized (fetal monitors, oxygen administration, some use of non-epidural pain meds, etc).

Also, at one point they listed a few medical complications that can come up in a home-birth situation that could be lethal for mother and baby if the mom didn't get to the OR within a few minutes. However, they just listed them and there was no follow-up. That bugged me! Of the things they mentioned (don't remember exactly, but I think placental abruption and cord prolapse might be two of them), my DH saw nearly every one in his first two WEEKS of his ob/gyn rotation. Almost all of these women had healthy, low-risk pregnancies.

Finally, although the movie is correct that the US has infant mortality rates slightly higher than the rest of the Westernized world, we also have much higher rates of obesity and other health complications that are linked to bad outcomes for mothers and babies. Women here are also having first babies much older than any undeveloped or developed country in the world, which is a HUGE risk factor for pregnancy complications. Even though all of these risk factors are increasing and surgical and technological intervention is UP, infant mortality rates are DOWN down in the US (as in other developed countries) in the last 20-30 years. Here is a graph of that: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/2008/cphorsphc-respcacsp/gfx/Figure_3-6.gif.

Anyway, since the movie really advocated in a certain direction I wanted to throw in some aspects of the the other side. While childbirth may be natural, death and fetal demise are also a natural part of life (just look at the animal kingdom), and had been to a much greater extent in our recent past. I enjoyed the movie though.

 

[miraclesrule]

Thank you everyone.

neatfreak: I do completely understand that stats are often more complicated than they simplistically appear, however, I am also factoring in my own eye witness to the many pregnant friends and experiences they have had.

I suppose the whole c-section connection is what is bothering me the most. I just don't think it's healthy to pit, epi, pit, epi to the mother and/or the baby. Clearly there will always be very tragic situations where it wouldn't have mattered where the mother was, something was going to go wrong and invention of any kind wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Jeez Miranda, are you always that predictable?

10 hours for each? YIKES!!
Peony, sorry about that. You are correct that haven't witnessed a non-medical birth. That still bothers me...a lot.
DFan, that's awful...
Italia, you sound like my daughter

Dreamer and Blenheim, where are you located?

I agree that the documentary seemed to have an agenda, but I don't think it was overly biased. I think it was trying to get us women to at least "think" about the rationale behind the current situation. Is there a "why"? And is that answer a healthy one...for the mother and the baby.

ETA: I did notice Rikki Lake's earrings at one point and said, "Hey, I want those diamonds" I did it the only night while I caught the end of Titanic again, and during the scene on the raft as Leonardo is dead and I was like "Ooooh, those are the earrings I want!" PS is a baddddd influence.

 

[Blenheim]

Ann Arbor. I''ve heard that the local hospital has a very high c-section rate, although I''m having trouble finding recent statistics. Their women''s center is built to accomodate a 50% cesarean rate, though. At the same time, there''s a vibrant natural birth community in the area. There are several midwifery practices that attend homebirths, and there is a group of CNMs affiliated with the hospital who are said to be very good. Everyone in the area who knows that I''m having a home birth has been very supportive and excited for me.

I noticed Ricki Lake''s earrings too.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 10/18/2008 9:30:06 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Thank you everyone.

neatfreak: I do completely understand that stats are often more complicated than they simplistically appear, however, I am also factoring in my own eye witness to the many pregnant friends and experiences they have had.

I suppose the whole c-section connection is what is bothering me the most. I just don''t think it''s healthy to pit, epi, pit, epi to the mother and/or the baby. Clearly there will always be very tragic situations where it wouldn''t have mattered where the mother was, something was going to go wrong and invention of any kind wouldn''t have changed the outcome.

Jeez Miranda, are you always that predictable?

10 hours for each? YIKES!!
Peony, sorry about that. You are correct that haven''t witnessed a non-medical birth. That still bothers me...a lot.
DFan, that''s awful...
Italia, you sound like my daughter

Dreamer and Blenheim, where are you located?

I agree that the documentary seemed to have an agenda, but I don''t think it was overly biased. I think it was trying to get us women to at least ''think'' about the rationale behind the current situation. Is there a ''why''? And is that answer a healthy one...for the mother and the baby.

ETA: I did notice Rikki Lake''s earrings at one point and said, ''Hey, I want those diamonds'' I did it the only night while I caught the end of Titanic again, and during the scene on the raft as Leonardo is dead and I was like ''Ooooh, those are the earrings I want!'' PS is a baddddd influence.

LOL - No. Only when I give birth.

Haha - In fact, I am very unpredictable. That''s what DH loves best. You never know where I will stand on an issue. Sometimes I''m sooooo liberal and sometimes I''m sooooo conservative. My brain is all up-mixed (as FIL would say)!

OK, now I REALLY wanna see this! Did you say fab earrings????????? Just kidding...I do want to see it. I live in the dark ages and know nothing of this Netflix Blenheim speaks of...Guess I need to get on board.

 

[miraclesrule]

Miranda....Are you SERIOUS??? You don''t know what Netflix is?

OMG, I don''t know how I could live without it. I joined about a year after they started up, maybe a bit later. It''s the mail order movie rental company. Blockbuster tried to copy it''s operating plan when Netflix stole their market share away.

I can''t even remember the last time I was in a video store.

Anyway, I hear you on the unpredictable. I am the same way.


The thing that keeps haunting me, and when things haunt me it is usually for good reason....is this : Is the possible, very probable high cost of our U.S. birthing business draining our health care system unnecessarily? Are we, as Americans, relying on this too much just because our doctors have created that environment? It''s troubling. I''m just glad I''m past menopause.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:06:48 PM
Author: Blenheim
Ann Arbor. I've heard that the local hospital has a very high c-section rate, although I'm having trouble finding recent statistics. Their women's center is built to accomodate a 50% cesarean rate, though. At the same time, there's a vibrant natural birth community in the area. There are several midwifery practices that attend homebirths, and there is a group of CNMs affiliated with the hospital who are said to be very good. Everyone in the area who knows that I'm having a home birth has been very supportive and excited for me.


I noticed Ricki Lake's earrings too.

Blen, just a random question, but does your local hospital have a level 3 NICU? Being in Ann Arbor I was thinking it probably did...and if it does then many high risk women would be sent there for their births, so the c-section rate would naturally be a lot higher. I wonder because even 50% seems really high unless they are dealing with a risky population to begin with!

And that is so awesome that you guys have such a good system for home births there. I think the key to having a safe birth, whether at home or at the hospital, is having good people with lots of training attending to you! Sounds like you are in very good hands there.

 

[Blenheim]

Miranda, really?! http://www.netflix.com/ There''s a free trial offer, so you can see the earrings right now if you want.

Miracles, my guess would be yes. It''s not just the doctors that create that environment, though. The media tends to portray births as disasters waiting to happen and normalize the pit/epi/lithotomy position/etc routine.

Consumer Reports published this in the last couple of weeks, by the way.

 

[diamondfan]

I never had a C in three deliveries, and I am glad, as the recovery can be tough, no lifting, no driving, it is very tough for weeks on end with a newborn. Not sure if the hospitals I had my kids in have higher than normal rates and I was just lucky but most of my friends had at least one C section. Having your baby in the safest way is the best, so if one is needed, of course it should be done, but anytime you can avoid cutting yourself like that the better off you are.

 

[Blenheim]

Date: 10/18/2008 11:17:09 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 10/18/2008 10:06:48 PM
Author: Blenheim
Ann Arbor. I''ve heard that the local hospital has a very high c-section rate, although I''m having trouble finding recent statistics. Their women''s center is built to accomodate a 50% cesarean rate, though. At the same time, there''s a vibrant natural birth community in the area. There are several midwifery practices that attend homebirths, and there is a group of CNMs affiliated with the hospital who are said to be very good. Everyone in the area who knows that I''m having a home birth has been very supportive and excited for me.


I noticed Ricki Lake''s earrings too.

Blen, just a random question, but does your local hospital have a level 3 NICU? Being in Ann Arbor I was thinking it probably did...and if it does then many high risk women would be sent there for their births, so the c-section rate would naturally be a lot higher. I wonder because 50% seems really high unless they are dealing with a risky population to begin with!

And that is so awesome that you guys have such a good system for home births there. I think the key to having a safe birth, whether at home or at the hospital, is having good people with lots of training attending to you! Sounds like you are in very good hands there.

I think so... their website says "State-of-the-art services in our facility allow us to to care for infants with complex or unusually severe problems who fail conventional therapies at other centers. Approximately 25 percent of our patients are transported to the U-M Health System from other Level III centers for advanced therapies, such as extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO), high-frequency ventilation and inhalational nitric oxide, and brain cooling after birth asphyxia." (bolding mine)

I''m pretty sure that they get a lot more high-risk women because of this, which would certianly account for the high rate! But I think that they like exciting/unusual things more. I''ve heard that they''re really not good if you want a natural birth, and I''ve felt like doctors have been really impatient with me there before for trivial complaints like a potentially broken bone or a herniated disc.

On the flip side, I can''t think of a better place to transfer to if something goes wrong.

 

[miraclesrule]

Blenheim, that''s awesome. I thought you were in the UK. It''s great to know that more people in the U.S. are supportive of an much Mother Nature as is possible and safe.

Thanks for the link. It confirmed my suspicions. I hope my daughter will consider alternatives. I remember the moment I held her as though it was yesterday. I couldn''t imagine a team of people hovering everywhere and me not immediately holding her, unless of course, our lives were at risk.

Dfan, I know many people who at the 5 month mark are talking about their "induction".

I always ask because I am naturally curious and it''s usually a convenience thing to accomodate the doctor or the family. One of my friends said, "If this baby doesn''t come by it''s due date, we are inducing because I am not having a Scorpio baby!" Hahahaha, now that I can understand. Not specifically Scorpio''s but any incompatible sign if ones studies that sort of thing. I am trying to get my daughter to conceive so she has a better chance of having a Fire sign.

I was tyring to find my daughter immunization records last night because I was stunned...I mean stunned...by the number of shots kids get now. I don''t think my daughter had even half the number they have now. I have always studied the methods of pharmaceutical companies and their priorities, which has become more profit driven than altruistic. But that''s a whole different topic.

 

[Blenheim]

Miracles, I feel fortunate to live where I do. The pediatrician I want to use even does home visits for newborns birthed at home - how wonderful is that? (That reminds me - I need to call them to get on their waiting list.)

If you want more reading on the topic, The Thinking Woman''s Guide to a Better Birth is good. Misconceptions is what got me thinking about a natural birth in the first place. Pushed and Born in the USA are both on my reading list, although I haven''t gotten around to them yet.

And yes, vaccines are a whole different topic. I need to start reading up on them at some point.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/18/2008 11:29:57 PM
Author: Blenheim

Date: 10/18/2008 11:17:09 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 10/18/2008 10:06:48 PM

Author: Blenheim

Ann Arbor. I've heard that the local hospital has a very high c-section rate, although I'm having trouble finding recent statistics. Their women's center is built to accomodate a 50% cesarean rate, though. At the same time, there's a vibrant natural birth community in the area. There are several midwifery practices that attend homebirths, and there is a group of CNMs affiliated with the hospital who are said to be very good. Everyone in the area who knows that I'm having a home birth has been very supportive and excited for me.



I noticed Ricki Lake's earrings too.

Blen, just a random question, but does your local hospital have a level 3 NICU? Being in Ann Arbor I was thinking it probably did...and if it does then many high risk women would be sent there for their births, so the c-section rate would naturally be a lot higher. I wonder because 50% seems really high unless they are dealing with a risky population to begin with!


And that is so awesome that you guys have such a good system for home births there. I think the key to having a safe birth, whether at home or at the hospital, is having good people with lots of training attending to you! Sounds like you are in very good hands there.

I think so... their website says 'State-of-the-art services in our facility allow us to to care for infants with complex or unusually severe problems who fail conventional therapies at other centers. Approximately 25 percent of our patients are transported to the U-M Health System from other Level III centers for advanced therapies, such as extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO), high-frequency ventilation and inhalational nitric oxide, and brain cooling after birth asphyxia.' (bolding mine)


I'm pretty sure that they get a lot more high-risk women because of this, which would certianly account for the high rate! But I think that they like exciting/unusual things more. I've heard that they're really not good if you want a natural birth, and I've felt like doctors have been really impatient with me there before for trivial complaints like a potentially broken bone or a herniated disc.

On the flip side, I can't think of a better place to transfer to if something goes wrong.

Ahhh it is the UM system, I figured that might be the case because they have a fabulous multiples unit there!

It's very smart of you to do the research to find out who is best for you. Hospitals are great and can do wonderful things, but there sure are some technology happy doctors/hospitals out there too. That is very annoying that the doctors there haven't treated you wish respect for smaller things. That would really turn me off too. I think the best thing any woman can do is research and be informed about the ups and downs of whatever decision they are making. And then make the best decision for them.

I did a lot of research to find my OB and picked him because he's very evidence based, up on current research, and not afraid to try things the traditional way if that's the best option for a good outcome. He has his opinions about things, but he's also very open to new things too. I

him for that.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:50:10 PM
Author: miraclesrule
Miranda....Are you SERIOUS??? You don''t know what Netflix is?

OMG, I don''t know how I could live without it. I joined about a year after they started up, maybe a bit later. It''s the mail order movie rental company. Blockbuster tried to copy it''s operating plan when Netflix stole their market share away.

I can''t even remember the last time I was in a video store.

Anyway, I hear you on the unpredictable. I am the same way.


The thing that keeps haunting me, and when things haunt me it is usually for good reason....is this : Is the possible, very probable high cost of our U.S. birthing business draining our health care system unnecessarily? Are we, as Americans, relying on this too much just because our doctors have created that environment? It''s troubling. I''m just glad I''m past menopause.

Heehee - well, I have heard of it. I''ve never used it. I still go to Blockbuster and rent movies...And go back to Blockbuster to return them! I know. I know. I''m afraid of progress!!! I WILL sign up guys! Blen - I will see the earrings tonight...If I can get these kids to bed. They want to play MORE darts.

As for the highlighted part. Miracles, this is what I see as the problem! I want to have a CHOICE as to whether or not I feel the extreme pain of childbirth. I see it as a freedom I am more than willing to pay for. If women can abort surely they can choose to feel the pain of birth or not. I don''t mean to get all heavy and bring abortion into this convo. But, when I think of all of the choices we as women have. Abortion and pain during childbirth instantly come to mind. In my mind, I am not a cave woman (not equating women who go natural as cave women - they just didn''t have the option, right?) and I would never choose to feel my hips spreading apart and my crotch ripping open to birth a baby. I know lots of women would, but, there''s no way I EVER would. I am a sisssssy! Another thought is that we never really cared whether women had epidurals or medical interventions or abortions or were teenage parents etc. until we, as a society, started paying for them. Oh goodness, I feel this going into a rant on the evils of welfare...*sigh* I really feel like *rules* keep people from experiencing who they really are.

OK, so I know my inner Braveheart starts coming out when I talk about the government and the greater good, and I know that was not the intent of this thread. I guess what my point is, is that I have a tremendous amount of faith in the human race. I feel like *right* will be different for every woman. And I think they should ALL have that choice. For me it was to have a heavily medicated birth(s). And, yes, I will sign up for Netflix!!!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/18/2008 10:50:10 PM
Author: miraclesrule
The thing that keeps haunting me, and when things haunt me it is usually for good reason....is this : Is the possible, very probable high cost of our U.S. birthing business draining our health care system unnecessarily? Are we, as Americans, relying on this too much just because our doctors have created that environment? It''s troubling. I''m just glad I''m past menopause.

Just FYI, the majority of the huge overhead in our healthcare system is related to #1. Overcharging for little things (like $8 aspirin) and #2. End of life care. We spend crazy amounts of money keeping people alive at the very end of their lives. So called "heroic" efforts.

So while unnecessary procedures are of course a big part of it, birthing isn''t the major problem.

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Miracle,
I can hear how excited you are at the prospect of being a grandma (tough NOBODY will believe that you are by your look when it happens). I think the choice of birth plan should depend on your daughter''s health, pregnancy progression, health of the baby''s DNA, and her health care coverage. It is a complex formula that can be decided best with input from the mother, family, AND the doctor. I am sure when the time comes your wisdom will help your daughter to make the best decision that''s right for her.

 

[miraclesrule]

neatfreak, I see bills everyday and can''t believe how much hospitals charge for things. Yet, right after I typed that I read the link that Blenheim posted by Consumer Affairs. They state the following:

In fact, the current style of maternity care is so procedure-intensive that 6 of the 15 most common hospital procedures used in the entire U.S. are related to childbirth. Although most childbearing women in this country are healthy and at low risk for childbirth complications, national surveys reveal that essentially all women who give birth in U.S. hospitals have high rates of use of complex interventions, with risks of adverse effects.

I know that they did a lot of stuff for my father too at end of life. I just can''t help but analyze. I do it everyday for a paycheck. I guess I''m in the right field...I get to deal with doctors, lawyers, corporations, labor and special interests galore. This is why I babysit...to get away from the madness.

I didn''t mean for this to be a divisive thread, I was really just trying to understand if my basic instinct was supported by a non official poll since PS has a lot of diverse and global members. I hope nobody feels that this was intended to judge or cause anyone to feel a need to defend their decision. Your stories are touching enough and I thank you for sharing openly.

zhu,
You''re right, my daughter will end up doing whatever she chooses to do, but gratefully, she does respect my opinion because she knows I have spent my life "preaching" about these issues and over 20 years my predictions have become mostly true, so she trusts me and I would never force anything on her. I couldn''t even if I tried. But I can tell that she is already scared to death and she hasn''t even TTC yet. I want to ease her fear-filled mind with data and choices and alternative sources other than the current experience. Beside that, I want to minimize any risk to her and her potential child.

 

[cara]

As you compare the US to other industrialized countries, remember that healthcare in the US is generally way way more expensive than other countries. So birth costs alone are not a good metric to compare unless you in some way compensate for overall differences in health care costs between countries. Or, you can be horrified at the birth cost excesses in the way you are horrified that our coutry generally wastes money on health care without improving overall care provided to the entire population.

While some think that the pendulum on medicalization of birth has swung too far in the US, please remember that complete lack of medical care is much more dangerous. (Not a comment on home births attended by skilled birth attendants near a hospital.) The Washington Post ran a story on childbirth in Sierra Leone, and the maternal mortality rate is given as 1 in 8.

One of the more interesting articles that came in my husband''s medical journals was analyzing maternal and paternal mortality in 19th century Utah. The all-cause, one-year mortality rate for first time mothers was over 15%, and remained over 10% even for experienced mothers. (All-cause mortality means things other than childbirth could have caused mother''s death in the year after she gave birth.) The mortality rate of age-matched women that did not give birth was under 5%. So giving birth was associated with at least a 5 to 10% increase in mortality for the following year.

I am reminded of my ecology professor going on a rant about people''s idealized use of the word "natural" in a completely different context. I realize many use "natural" in a good way to mean less medication or intervention or a non-hospital setting, but most do not actually want a "natural" outcome for those babies or mothers that would otherwise not survive birth save for medical intervention.