Spin-off of the Infidelity Thread

[somethingshiny]

So, here's the story. I have had this friend since I was 14. We have always been very close. She and I dated guys who knew each other too. We both married them. Her husband (I'm 99% sure) cheated on her while they were dating. She was told by another friend and chose to ignore it. Currently he spends a lot of time in another town "taking care of family matters." I have asked her more than once if she would want to know if her husband cheated and she has emphatically said No. Here's the thing. I don't like how flirty he is with me. Like, more than flirty, downright vulgar sometimes. She had a breast lump removed recently. They stopped by our house with some food for lunch. He looked at my DH and said, "I can't play with her t***, can I play with your wife's?" DH nearly came unglued. I said, "That's entirely inappropriate." His wife just looked at him. She also recently had a hysterectomy. He called to tell me when she was out of surgery upon my request. While his wife was in recovery he said, "I can't touch her for a few weeks, can I come sleep in your bed?" At that time I told him he was being a jerk. He does this crap all the time. I just don't know what to do. DH wanted to kick him out of our house and never let him back in, but I find that hard to do with one of my best friend's husbands. I think he's dirty and I don't want anything to do with him and what's more, I don't want her to be hurting. Ideas??

Sorry this is kinda rambly and disorganized. I get really pissed thinking about it.

 

[somethingshiny]

Forgot to make a point...

I think if he is crossing the lines this much with her friend, he's doing a helluva lot more when he's "out of town." She has made it clear that she would not want to know if he was cheating, but I am concerned at the STD level, ya know? I want her to get tested (due to recent symptoms) and she "sees no reason."

 

[Autumnovember]

So, here's the story. I have had this friend since I was 14. We have always been very close. She and I dated guys who knew each other too. We both married them. Her husband (I'm 99% sure) cheated on her while they were dating. She was told by another friend and chose to ignore it. Currently he spends a lot of time in another town "taking care of family matters." I have asked her more than once if she would want to know if her husband cheated and she has emphatically said No. Here's the thing. I don't like how flirty he is with me. Like, more than flirty, downright vulgar sometimes. She had a breast lump removed recently. They stopped by our house with some food for lunch. He looked at my DH and said, "I can't play with her t***, can I play with your wife's?" DH nearly came unglued. I said, "That's entirely inappropriate." His wife just looked at him. She also recently had a hysterectomy. He called to tell me when she was out of surgery upon my request. While his wife was in recovery he said, "I can't touch her for a few weeks, can I come sleep in your bed?" At that time I told him he was being a jerk. He does this crap all the time. I just don't know what to do. DH wanted to kick him out of our house and never let him back in, but I find that hard to do with one of my best friend's husbands. I think he's dirty and I don't want anything to do with him and what's more, I don't want her to be hurting. Ideas??

Sorry this is kinda rambly and disorganized. I get really pissed thinking about it.

I can't believe he would say something like that IN front of your husband AND his wife! WTF is this guy thinking? On top of that, how embarrassing for his poor wife

There are some people who seriously do not know their boundaries and really don't care about boundaries in general. Maybe this idiot enjoys the reactions you give? Maybe he WANTS to see how far he can push it with you?

Could you talk to him first and make it very clear how uncomfortable his comments are making everyone?

 

[Autumnovember]

Forgot to make a point...

I think if he is crossing the lines this much with her friend, he's doing a helluva lot more when he's "out of town." She has made it clear that she would not want to know if he was cheating, but I am concerned at the STD level, ya know? I want her to get tested (due to recent symptoms) and she "sees no reason."

Ouch.

She's choosing to ignore something really serious here and if SHE is consciously ignoring it, I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince her to do otherwise.

I know she is a good friend of yours but maybe its better to just step away from the situation and let her figure it out on her own.

 

[somethingshiny]

AN~ I have briefly had a discussion with his wife about his comments. She knows most of what he has said to me ( I didn't tell her about what he said after she had her uterus cut out!) and she always says, "he's so funny." I don't really feel like I can or should talk to him. I don't want to encourage any behavior by talking with him alone.

 

[that_someone_special]

OMG ....

 

[jaysonsmom]

Like I said in my the first Infidelity thread, distance yourselves from people of questionable character. If both you and your husband feel uncomfotable with your friend's "dirty minded" husband, you can choose not to associate yourself with the two of them as a couple. You can still be there for your friend, and catch up over coffee and e-mails. You do not have to be around that creepy husband of hers!

 

[Maisie]

Like I said in my the first Infidelity thread, distance yourselves from people of questionable character. If both you and your husband feel uncomfotable with your friend's "dirty minded" husband, you can choose not to associate yourself with the two of them as a couple. You can still be there for your friend, and catch up over coffee and e-mails. You do not have to be around that creepy husband of hers!

I absolutely agree with this. You don't need to be his friend to be hers.

He is an asshat.

 

[somethingshiny]

Like I said in my the first Infidelity thread, distance yourselves from people of questionable character. If both you and your husband feel uncomfotable with your friend's "dirty minded" husband, you can choose not to associate yourself with the two of them as a couple. You can still be there for your friend, and catch up over coffee and e-mails. You do not have to be around that creepy husband of hers!

This is pretty much what we do. She and I hang out during the day when her husband isn't around and we've completely stopped hanging out with them as a couple. She's very important to me, i wish there was a way for everyone to get along.



asshat indeed!

 

[Autumnovember]

AN~ I have briefly had a discussion with his wife about his comments. She knows most of what he has said to me ( I didn't tell her about what he said after she had her uterus cut out!) and she always says, "he's so funny." I don't really feel like I can or should talk to him. I don't want to encourage any behavior by talking with him alone.

Honestly, she knows whats going on. She is just choosing not to deal with it. I wouldn't doubt if she knew the real truth behind her husbands "trips".

If she thinks its "so funny" and you also don't want to talk to him, what options are left?

I think the best thing to do is to just let it go and possibly stop spending as much time with them.

God forbid one day she decides to stop "ignoring" all of this and then blames you for something, you know?

 

[iLander]

WHAT AN A$$H@LE!

She thinks she can hold on to him by not investigating his cheating, when obviously all that is doing is making him lose respect for her. She is acting like a doormat and he figures he can walk all over her. So, being an ass, he puts on his boots and walks.

By not deciding to confront him, she has actually made a decision to allow him to continue.

His statements and rudeness make it obvious that he WANTS someone to set boundaries for him. His wife won't do it, so he's actually trying to get you and your husband to do it. Your DH is right, he never crosses your threshold again. She can come, preferably while he's out of town (with his girlfriends, obviously). Maybe your friend will be encouraged to set her own limits if you set your own.

My heart goes out to your friend, with so many health problems, plus an a$$h@le husband. You need to support her as much as possible. She is holding on to him because her world and her security are slipping away from her (because of her health) and she thinks he is all she has.

People will give up a LOT for what they perceive as security.

Does she have any money/family/support if she decides to leave him? Where can she go?

 

[somethingshiny]

AN~ I don't know what to say to him if we do speak, ya know. "Hey, don't eff with me!" or "I don't appreciate your comments" or "if you talk to me that way again I'm gonna have DH beat you up!" His attitude is so out there, I don't know how to respond so that he would GET it.


iLander~ I hadn't thought about me setting boundaries being encouraging for her. I know she loves him for whatever reason, honestly, I've never understood why they got married. He has no respect for her and I don't think he ever did. How do I go about not letting him in? Do I announce it? Do I just say we're busy if they drop by and hope he gets the idea? I really don't want to hurt my friend. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the kind of family who would help her out in this situation and she would have no where to go.

 

[dragonfly411]

What a jerk.


Personally, her lack of response to his actions would make me lose a lot of respect for her as a person.

 

[somethingshiny]

df~ I have lost respect. I guess that's another reason I posted. I don't feel we can have the same friendship that we've had for so many years. This is a basic issue that I find a need to agree upon amongst close friends. I want her to see what's going on and tell him to quit in no uncertain terms. Then I want her to open her eyes to the rest of his activities.

 

[Liane]

EW that dude is so gross. SO GROSS.

SS, I'm sorry your friend is with that creep and sorry that you have to have him in your life (however peripherally) as a result.

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks your friend has to be aware of his behavior, even if she won't admit it to you and maybe won't even admit it fully to herself. But she knows. She has to know.

If it were me, I'd just continue to be there for the friend (it is almost inevitable that this is eventually going to blow up, either because she finally decides to stop tolerating his creeptastic creepery or he gets bored with her and dumps her, and when one or both of those things happens, she will need your support) and flat-out refuse to let the guy in my house or otherwise deal with him in any social setting. I would not even be polite about this: "sorry, I decided not to let walking sacks of scum into my house, it's too much trouble cleaning up the carpets afterward."

(Note: above may not be good advice if you want to keep talking to these people. But really, would you have made this thread if you wanted to keep talking to these people?)

 

[monarch64]

SS, I'm really sorry to hear that you're going through this.

I think that you and your husband should become a united front against the husband's behavior and if that means putting your friendship with her on hiatus, so be it. By doing so, you and your husband will be demonstrating to both of them that a. you will not tolerate his behavior, and b. that there are consequences to his behaviors and possible actions (if he is cheating or even talking about it). Then, it is up to them to decide how they will behave. Either he will continue his behavior and not be doing it around you, and you and she will not spend time together or he will realize his mistakes have affected your friendships and stop acting that way around you, at least.

She needs to go and get tested if she is having symptoms. Some STI's can cause permanent damage and even death (syhphilis and HIV are the two that come to mind the quickest but there are others). I don't know how I would handle a conversation with her about that, but since you've been friends for so long maybe you will be able to convince her.

I fear that you will lose the friendship in the end. She is obviously in total denial and wants to cling to whatever notion she has that her husband is not cheating and that his behavior around other couples/women/etc. isn't inappropriate (funny? I don't think so!). She will likely turn around and blame you if you choose to cut them off as friends unless his behavior changes completely, but by continuing a friendship with them you are only enabling him to continue being an a$$hole and enabling her to remain in denial and not deal with the situation as his wife.

When I was going back and forth about leaving my marriage, I had not one, but 3-4 friends flat out tell me that they had started to see less of me when I was around my ex due to the tension/discomfort. One told me that I either needed to quit b*tching about it and make a decision to stay or go. Another told me something else that equally hit home. The general sentiment was that I was losing far more by staying or letting the situation stay the same than I had to gain by making a change. Change is scary, but I ended up making a positive change because those very true friends of mine were not in the business of playing nice and sweeping things under the rug. ETA: I'm not saying you're sweeping things under the rug. I just think for her sake you need to send a loud and clear message that you won't tolerate any more of his crap and you refuse to see her being treated poorly.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

SS, I'm really sorry to hear that you're going through this.

I think that you and your husband should become a united front against the husband's behavior and if that means putting your friendship with her on hiatus, so be it. By doing so, you and your husband will be demonstrating to both of them that a. you will not tolerate his behavior, and b. that there are consequences to his behaviors and possible actions (if he is cheating or even talking about it). Then, it is up to them to decide how they will behave. Either he will continue his behavior and not be doing it around you, and you and she will not spend time together or he will realize his mistakes have affected your friendships and stop acting that way around you, at least.

She needs to go and get tested if she is having symptoms. Some STI's can cause permanent damage and even death (syhphilis and HIV are the two that come to mind the quickest but there are others). I don't know how I would handle a conversation with her about that, but since you've been friends for so long maybe you will be able to convince her.

I fear that you will lose the friendship in the end. She is obviously in total denial and wants to cling to whatever notion she has that her husband is not cheating and that his behavior around other couples/women/etc. isn't inappropriate (funny? I don't think so!). She will likely turn around and blame you if you choose to cut them off as friends unless his behavior changes completely, but by continuing a friendship with them you are only enabling him to continue being an a$$hole and enabling her to remain in denial and not deal with the situation as his wife.

When I was going back and forth about leaving my marriage, I had not one, but 3-4 friends flat out tell me that they had started to see less of me when I was around my ex due to the tension/discomfort. One told me that I either needed to quit b*tching about it and make a decision to stay or go. Another told me something else that equally hit home. The general sentiment was that I was losing far more by staying or letting the situation stay the same than I had to gain by making a change. Change is scary, but I ended up making a positive change because those very true friends of mine were not in the business of playing nice and sweeping things under the rug. ETA: I'm not saying you're sweeping things under the rug. I just think for her sake you need to send a loud and clear message that you won't tolerate any more of his crap and you refuse to see her being treated poorly.

I was trying to figure out how to write my reactions to this (which is pretty horrified), and Monnie basically said everything I was thinking so I'll just quote her and say ditto.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. That guy is totally creepy and gross, and after reading that, I really wanted to punch him. Still do actually.

As others have said, don't associate with him anymore. Unfortunately, as far as your friend goes - you can really only help those who are open to being helped - and right now, it doesn't sound like that. I would be afraid to push, because I fear it'll just end with her resenting and blaming YOU for forcing her to accept what she should have realized on her own, you know? Until she snaps out of it on her own, I say keep your distance.

 

[iota15]

If you plan to keep her as a friend, you'll have to let her sort through her own situation.

She's decided to be wilfully blind to the situation. You can be civil, but not friends with her husband if you'd like. Lecturing him will do no one any good, nor change anything - except maybe ruin your friendship with her, which she'll need if this ever winds apart (it may not). It's hard to keep up her world of make-believe when you keep throwing his lying, cheating, bastardly deeds in her face.

I've lost more than a few friends for giving them a little too much reality - when in the end, they already know everything you have to say. I mean, if you can piece it together from the bits and pieces, I'm sure your friend can see everything, especially since you've had a few talks with her already. Your friend just need to process it in her own time and schedule, and sometimes, they'll just decided to accept it. That's her choice and your friend has made that clear as a bell for you.

Your choice is whether you still want to accept her as a friend - given that she isn't ready to let her lewd, cheating husband go, and given that she's obviously ready to accept lesser things for herself. Feel free to do things to improve her self-esteem and even continue having talks with her once in a while about her relationship. Improving her, and her views of her self-worth is the best you can do for her.

As for her husband, he's not going to stop seeing his girlfriend(s) and making lewd comments because you ask him to - whether in private or in public. I'd skip this altogether.

 

[somethingshiny]

I just wanted to post and say thanks for taking your time to write a response.

I need to digest everything that's been said before I can respond. I over analyze everything, but I know I can't continue this way and I have to figure out where the boundaries lie.

 

[luv2sparkle]

We have a friend who makes inappropriate comments to me as well. Not anywhere near as bad as that, and I don't think he
is a cheater, but I avoid being alone with him. He continually compliments me, and I don't hear him saying these kind of things
to his wife. If I did, the things he says to me would be a non issue. But even so, I don't think I would like my husband saying these
kind of things to another woman.

It is hard to think that this guy is not cheating. That is so way over the the top, rude, obnoxious and cruel. If I had just gone
through what your friend did, I would be feeling so very vulnerable. You man, should protect you not make you feel worse.
But you cannot make your friend face the truth. My gosh does she need a true friend. I would put this guy in his place every single
time he said something I didn't like. You friend has so much on her plate, I can understand her not being able to face it all, and
just wanting to ignore it.

 

[iLander]

AN~

iLander~ I hadn't thought about me setting boundaries being encouraging for her. I know she loves him for whatever reason, honestly, I've never understood why they got married. He has no respect for her and I don't think he ever did. How do I go about not letting him in? Do I announce it? Do I just say we're busy if they drop by and hope he gets the idea? I really don't want to hurt my friend. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the kind of family who would help her out in this situation and she would have no where to go.

You tell her very clearly "I find (lets call him Roger) Roger very offensive. If you want to come and visit me, that's fine, but I don't want him in my house". If he comes to visit "What do you want Roger? We're about to go out so you can't stay". If she brings him for a visit, even after the warning, you address him so she gets the point "Roger, turns out I'm not feeling well and we'll have to cancel tonight's plans". Slam the door. If, somehow, you are around him, and he is insulting you say "That is offensive. Are you trying to offend me?". Don't use lower-level words like gross, or crude, use upper level words that show you are above him; vulgar, repulsive, repugnant, etc. He will probably say he's joking, but you should repeat "I find that offensive. I am going to ask you to leave". Be calm, but firm. To be assertive, you need to be calm and repetitive. Just keep saying "You need to leave now". No drama, just assertive.

Support your friend with phone calls, girl's lunches, etc. I'm sure she is acutely aware that she has no support group and that is making her stay. Does she have a good job? Does she have enough money to leave him?

Some people just CAN"T see their own situation. I've found that hypothetical stories help: say "what if my husband said such crude things and he was fooling around?" Go into great detail and make sure she is listening. Then close with "What would you say to me?" I think you'll be surprised that she sees the situation when it's someone else.

 

[Steel]

SS, you sound like such a nice friend to have. I agree with Monnie, regretfully this friendship is on the way out. You can't open your friend eyes for her - she just does not want to look.

So it is up to you? Can you drop it and just be her friend? I couldn't , it would hurt me too much.

edit

 

[Haven]

SS, you sound like such a nice friend to have. I agree with Monnie, regretfully this friendship is on the way out. You can't open your friend eyes for her - she just does not want to look.

So it is up to you? Can you drop it and just be her friend? I couldn't , it would hurt me too much.

edit

I agree with Steal.

SS--I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. Everyone has given you such great advice. I read this thread when you first started it and couldn't even respond because I was shocked, and really torn about how I might respond in a similar situation.

I think what ILander said about setting boundaries is spot on. If this *did* happen to me, I would have no problem telling him that he can't speak to me like that right then and there. I have encountered men who have boundary issues like this, and even though I send out "Don't go there" vibes, a few have said inappropriate things to me, and I put them in their place immediately. Even the most grotesque man respected the boundary once I set it. (He threw his hands up and made as if it was my issue, but so be it. He never told me my *ss looked juicy and needed a squeeze again.)

Your friend's lack of response seems to be rooted in her inability to deal with this issue, and I don't think it reflects at all on how she does or does not value your friendship. I think she's really lost, and she has no idea what to do, and as her friend I'd want to try to help her out before bailing on her. Maybe just being there for her, or setting a boundary with her husband is all you can do right now, but that's probably what she needs most.

I would not spend time around him at all, though, for the record.

 

[somethingshiny]

Thank you all again for your replies. I've been at such a loss and didn't really feel it was appropriate to talk about it with people who know them. (small towns and all)

I'm going to muddle through my thoughts out loud here.

More background info, Their youngest daughter has a medical condition that makes it impossible for my friend to have a full time job. So, the fact that this little girl's dad leaves to go ANYWHERE else when his family needs him just irks me. Additionally, he lost his job a few months ago. He has made no effort to get another job. My own DH was unemployed for almost a year and looked for a job nearly every day of that year. The thought of a man who won't work to provide for his family is just unfathomable to me. And another thing that comes to mind is I went with her to her appts for her breast lump. Her husband couldn't even offer support for that!

Back to the topic at hand, I've realized just how much respect I've lost for her. I find it very hard to respect her as a woman when she allows herself and her family to be treated this way. DH has known her husband for many years although they were never friends (my DH actually can hardly stand to be around him). Through my DH's stories, I believe this jerk has never even loved my friend. It is awful to think that about someone who you love, ya know?

I really try to avoid drama and give the benefit of the doubt to those around me. I try to find reason for their behavior before condemning them. In this case, I can't find any possible explanation or redeeming quality about him. I will no longer accept him into my home. I won't announce it. Ever since this most recent round of disgust occurred, when I invite her to do anything I've specifically said "You and the girls" instead of "your family." If her husband says anything inappropriate to me over the phone (he tries to answer her phone if I call) or in person, I will say that it's offensive and I don't expect it to ever happen again. If it happens again and she doesn't seem to care, I will have to end the friendship. A big issue to me is respect. When she ignores his behavior, I feel she is disrespecting me.

All that being said, it's very hard for me to end a friendship. I know who she REALLY is and I love her so much. The fact that she's accepting of his behavior shows me just how much her health is scaring her. I think she just wants ANYONE to be there for her in whatever tiny way. I'm going to encourage her to have a "full workup" since she's having other medical issues anyway. If she does have an STD/STI, she'll have to face reality. I can't walk away from her when she needs someone so much. She has recently started an antidepressant as well. I'm hoping that once that starts to take effect, she'll be better able to handle everything.

I also have to accept that in the end, her acceptance or avoidance of his behavior and activity is her choice. All the while acknowledging that this may be the end of our friendship.

Honestly, I'm so scared that it'll get worse if she has no one on her side.

All of your responses have really helped me to work through this. Thank you so much.

 

[Haven]

I just want to give you big hugs, SS. It's obvious that you love your friend, and that you want the best for her. I can only imagine how much your hurting in this situation, wanting to be there for her but unable to help her see the truth. I'm so sorry.

 

[somethingshiny]

Thanks for all the support ladies. You guys are the best!

 

[LGK]

I haven't finished this whole thread I admit. I had a situation with one of my oldest friends wherein she married The Biggest Butthole In the Universe (tm) and she stayed with him for over a decade and had two kids with him. (He actually robbed a freaking bank to support his heroin habit, awesome. And beat the crap out of her, too. Yay.)

The rules were, no contact with him. He was never, ever to come anywhere near our home, and I avoided him like the plague. I never actually told my friend, don't bring your sleazy husband around. I just always made very explicit plans with her, and made sure they didn't include him. I'm sure she knew I'd rather punch him than sit around and be polite to him, but I never had to spell it out. It was just understood.

This guy sounds like just utter pond scum. Ew! Yeah, I'd avoid the hell out of him, and most likely your friend will catch on if you invite just specifically her to do things. You can always be honest if necessary, if she doesn't catch on- but I'd be pretty sure that if you bad mouth creepy boy to her, you risk losing your friendship entirely. Which was pretty much the situation I was in.

 

[somethingshiny]

LGK~ Thanks for posting. I've already implemented the specific plans that do not include him in any way. I think she may be catching the drift, we'll see.