Sick of hearing that mistresses feel so "deceived"

[Amethyste]

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

I know its your friend's business, but to me, fidelity is such a high value, that if a friend I knew would cheat on her husband or the husband cheat on his wife, I would totally loose respect for them. I don't think I could even hang around them anymore either...

 

[steph72276]

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That''s the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

 

[sugarpie honeybun]

Date: 2/20/2010 7:16:50 AM
Author: Amethyste

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

I know its your friend's business, but to me, fidelity is such a high value, that if a friend I knew would cheat on her husband or the husband cheat on his wife, I would totally loose respect for them. I don't think I could even hang around them anymore either...

Agreed. I couldn't be friends with someone who cheats on their significant other. It goes against everything I believe in.

 

[y2kitty]

These women are just common trash. If it were me, I''d be ashamed that I had been so stupid and not holding press conferences.

 

[MonkeyPie]

So I''m going to play devil''s advocate here for a minute...sort of. I DO NOT support anyone helping anyone else to cheat on their spouse or SO, but despite any of these women saying they were deceived, the fact is we do not know the arrangement. I highly doubt every last one of them honestly thought he would leave his wife for them - come on, she''s gorgeous and they have kids, and he had an ideal situation set up. Come home to wife and kids who adore him, then go out to other women that would have sex with him. Why the hell would he ruin something like that, you know? (Again, I AM NOT supporting this.)

I once had a, ah, dalliance with a married man and I never once expected him to leave his wife and kids for me, but the unhappiness he exuded was like something I could supply a drug to him to fix. I was the drug, and I felt better knowing he was at least superficially happy for awhile. Needless to say, it was a pretty darn short time in my life because it was more of a "just for fun" thing for me, and not so much for him. But I wasn''t in denial about it, either. I never expected gifts or a role in his household.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 2/20/2010 2:33:33 AM
Author: perry

Date: 2/20/2010 1:37:08 AM
Author: Allison D.

I don't think dating is an apt definition; dating is a courtship undertaken by two people for the purpose of assessing their suitability as an intimate partner or spouse.

I would disagree with your definition of dating. Many people 'date' as a casual relationship without looking for long term suitability. The current term 'Hooking Up' shows just how short term it can be.

Perry

Perry, you're free to disagree with that definition if you wish, but it's not mine....it's the dictionary's.

If you're asking for MY definition, my definition doesn't speak to intent (suitability of partner, etc), but it *does* imply that neither party is exclusively committed to another.

Simply said, at minimum, both parties should be SINGLE in order to be 'dating', whether the purpose is hook-up or something more. When either party in the equation is married, it's not dating; it's cheating. (The sole exception that I can think of is marriages in which both spouses have agreed to allow relationships outside their union, sexual or otherwise.)

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 2/19/2010 10:34:00 PM
Author: perry
Based on what I know of the situation... I would not call these women ''mistresses.'' Dates perhaps, in a relationship perhaps; but not ''mistresses.''

To me (a guy) a mistress is someone who you pay a routine stipend to be exclusively available for your romantic dalliances and other companionship needs. This is typically a long term situation - many months and often many years. In addition to the routine stipend various other gifts can be expected (jewelry, flowers, clothing, etc).

There is an understanding that there should not be children (unless agreed up front).

You can view the position as either an extension of the biblical ''concubine'' or as a form of high class prostitution; or something in the middle.

Of course the personalities and expectations must match; and both people do in fact check out the other person up front. There are both long term financial and emotional benefits to such a relationship (and many cultures do not have an expectation of sexual exclusiveness as part of a marriage).

As a single guy... might such a situation be better long term than dating a series of gals??? (assuming you can afford to support a mistress - and I personally would assume that the most basic agreement would start at $1000 per month for a minimum of a year; and can easily see how a good mistress could be worth $5000 - $10,000 a month - or more).

I know of no evidence that suggest that Tiger was paying any of these gals a monthly stipend with for a long term relationship; and thus believe that calling these women ''mistresses'' is inappropriate.

I am not saying that these women were not dating Tiger, or having occasional flings (affairs). But nothing so professional as being a real mistress. That might explain why they are so upset and feel so betrayed. A professional would just move on (and perhaps cash out her signed contract).

Perry

Instead of "concubines" (which was a perfectly legal position, say, in Japan. They bore kids to their masters and the kids were legal, too). I think Ancient Greek "hetaira" ("hetera") fits the situation better. They were highly paid and sometimes more "respected" than wives but they were not wives and their kids were not legal.

On a side note - if all women would start chasing their husbands (preferably at night and preferably with baseball bats) each time these guys cheated, morales will certainly improve! (LOL - only halfway because cheating is not only immoral; it is potentially bringing home STD''s).

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I think the lawyer {who shall remain nameless} ough to be ashamed of herself for trying to portray these women as victims. I can think of a few other names to call them, but "VICTIM" is not one. Get her {and her client} off my TV!!

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

Date: 2/20/2010 8:17:02 AM
Author: steph72276

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That's the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

People can cheat without spending a dime. People can make lavish gifts without cheating.

I have nothing to do with my husband's finances, nor he with mine. It doesn't mean that we are faithless. We don't exercise that particular form of control to prevent infidelity, we don't have to.

 

[Black Jade]

Perry''s definition of what a ''mistress'' is was good. I think it would define ''mistress'' in our society and probably be quite often what a wealthy businessman or other person who feels very entitled and does not want hassle (or fear of STDs etc) might do. If you were not really really famous (like Tiger) you might have some chance of getting away with this--or even had a wife who sort of kind of knew--and was keeping quiet because of other benefits.

Tiger had no chance of getting away with what HE was doing, long term--so many women, and people he knew little about, and from walks of life where you can expect neither discretion or class or loyalty. I''m thinking that he must in fact be sick and have on some level been WANTING to get found out and forced to get help. He reminds me of the ''secret'' drinker, leaving bottles all around the house, hoping for a confrontation.

I''m not in favor of mistresses (at all) but think I should point out that there are situations in which being a mistress is not just a job for cash. In those societies where people, especially upper-class, have arranged marriages for the sake of position and family to people that they do not know in order to breed suitable heirs, they are often allowed to and do have mistresses for ''love''. Prince Charles is probably the most famous recent case of this (becuase it blew up in public. Diana was not ''with the program'' though they expected her to be, since she also came from these social circles).
But his marriage with Diana was most certainly arranged, there was no emotional attachment on his part (he did not even know this girl, except that she was Earl Spenser''s daughter with all the right connections and family) and he clearly expected to be able to continue on with his true emotional connection for the rest of his life, as so many of his ancestors have done, in private, with the legal marriage being something done for public show only (and for heirs).

I''m not saying this is right (and in fact, I think it is really wrong) I am saying this is how it traditionally has worked in many places.

Similar things went on in the American South and in the island slave societies where a surprising amount (probably not a majority, but a surprising amount) of men had two families--a public white one and a secret black one, with the real emotional connection being with the black mistress, who was not marriage material (in fact it was literally illegal to marry her), and who could not be seen in public, nor could the children be publicly acknowledged (though they would be privately taken care of.) However, she would be the woman that the man really knew well (often since childhood) and the relationship not for money but for love.

Again, I think this is morally wrong and had all kinds of repercussions and ramifications too complicated to go into here. You would have to call this a ''mistress'' situation though, not a ''concubine''--because a concubine by definition has some legal status, though not as much as a wife. A mistress does not have any and is in the same position position legally (nowhere) whether she is a paid professional stranger or the secret love of someone''s life. She is just simply not a wife.

there is no reason on earth and no excuse either, for any self-respecting woman to get herself tied up in such a situation nowadays. It was never very pleasant for anyone concerned and now its just ridiculous.

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Date: 2/19/2010 11:40:56 AM
Author: decodelighted
If they''ll do it WITH you, they''ll do it TO you. These ladies were just hoping to get a piece of the PIE first I guess? Power/money/fame are powerful temptations. Especially for women with no self esteem, compassion or scruples.

Exactly!

 

[perry]

Date: 2/20/2010 11:22:02 AM
Author: Allison D.

I don't think dating is an apt definition; dating is a courtship undertaken by two people for the purpose of assessing their suitability as an intimate partner or spouse.

-------------

I would disagree with your definition of dating. Many people 'date' as a casual relationship without looking for long term suitability. The current term 'Hooking Up' shows just how short term it can be.

Perry

-------

Perry, you're free to disagree with that definition if you wish, but it's not mine....it's the dictionary's.


If you're asking for MY definition, my definition doesn't speak to intent (suitability of partner, etc), but it *does* imply that neither party is exclusively committed to another.


Simply said, at minimum, both parties should be SINGLE in order to be 'dating', whether the purpose is hook-up or something more. When either party in the equation is married, it's not dating; it's cheating. (The sole exception that I can think of is marriages in which both spouses have agreed to allow relationships outside their union, sexual or otherwise.)

There are many different definitions in various dictionaries - but I could not find the "Courtship" one in the several I have laying around the house. Not even in my Unabridged dictionary (about 6" thick).

The Random House Dictionary of the English Language; Second Edition, Unabridged. 1987

Date: Definition 7) a social appointment, engagement, or occasion arranged beforehand with another person: to go out on a date on Saturday night. Definition a person with whom one has such a social appointment or engagement: Can I bring a date to the party? Definition 16) to go out socially on dates: She dated a lot during high school. Definition 20) to make a date with; go out on dates with: He's been dating his best friend's sister.

Note that none of these definitions require sexual contact. But that they do make common sense. When I was in Jr High and High-School (70's) most people dated (and had sex) without courtship in mind. Same for when I was in the Navy, and then College. Companionship and fun was the primary focus. Now that I've watched most people my age get divorced (perhaps several times) most are not dating (with sex) for courtship. Of course the current younger generation came up with just "hooking up" as the concept of even going steady has generally fallen by the wayside (at least for their generation - and many wonders why STD rates are climbing).

I do admit that most people enter a period where dating is for courtship; but overall that seems to be a minority period of their overall dating life.

It's interesting to see the definition of "mistress" in my unabridged dictionary (my smaller dictionaries don't even mention the sexual liaison use of the term)

Mistress: Definition 7) a woman who has a continuing, extramarital sexual relationship with one man, esp. a man who, in return for an exclusive and continuing liaison, provides her with financial support.

In the end; we can agree to disagree; but I do think my use of the word "date" and "mistress" as I used them above is the more commonly accepted and used terms. I object to any of the Tiger women from calling themselves a mistress. They are tying to claim a status they never had.

-----------------------

As far as Tiger is concerned. My opinion is that he should have had a proper mistress to handle his sexual needs when his wife could not be around; and if he had I doubt his marriage would be on the rocks or that he would be in anywhere near the trouble he is now. It could even get out to be public knowledge and it could have been explained in a straight forward manner. In fact - he'd be golfing and wining lots of tournaments.

The fact of the matter is that is what a lot of very high performing men do (in both the sports and business arena) - and their wives know about it - and it is often agreed to prior to and as part of the marriage. The press knows about it (but does not publish it). Anyone part of the circle at these levels know about it. It's part of how these people maintain their peak high performance. Some high performing women have gigolos for the same reason (and that is also as old as mistresses).

I spent decades on the national level and international level race circuit in my sport. I know what goes on at those levels (and while there is not the money for high paid mistresses - its surprising how many top athletes show up with not only a wife - but a "friend" of the family).

I highly doubt that Tiger can save his marriage and be a high performer on the golf course if monogamy is going to be insisted on by his wife. I do think he can save his marriage and be a high performer golfer with an appropriate mistress that his wife approves of.

----------------

Black Jade: I like your analysis. I think you may be onto something that Tiger was so out of control because he wanted to get caught so he could start addressing his problems. I find that idea highly plausible.

----------------

On another level the concept of what is a mistress and how it relates started me down another path this weekend. I don't want to hi-jcak this thread and will start a new thread on the issue of modern dating - is the mistress concept perhaps a better one? I think Black Jade might appreciate my concepts (but I've been wrong before).


Perry

 

[Black Jade]

Will be interesting to see the discussion if Perry puts up another thread. Maybe he can link?

I''m not sure what the definition of dating is, since society has changed so much (since the 60''s). I have a feeling that different people have different definitions and expectations. I remember dating in the 70''s and thinking that it was supposed to be a fun, social thing to do to get to know people and maybe fall in love eventually--but finding that when I went on dates the guys had completely other ideas! That I was expected, in their eyes, to sleep with them, because they paid $3.50 for a movie ticket! So I stopped dating, because that was not in my program and it was very uncomfortable to be in that situation.

I imagine that the pressure is much, much more now. With a lot of people doing things they don''t want to, too soon becuase it''s expected. No clear rules is a difficult thing.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/20/2010 8:17:02 AM
Author: steph72276

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That''s the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

the 3 diamonds would add up to over $45K. he paid cash for the diamonds in HK then bring em back to the U.S. for his misterss.

 

[megumic]

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

I''m not sure if it''s just me, but doesn''t it seem only men can stay friends with their cheating friends? I have never been able to stay friends with cheaters b/c I''m uncomfortable with their values, quality of character and don''t feel comfortable maintaining them as friends. (Unless of course they make a turn around and change their lifestyle.)

 

[megumic]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:03:07 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/20/2010 8:17:02 AM

Author: steph72276

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM

Author: Dancing Fire

an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.



the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That''s the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

the 3 diamonds would add up to over $45K. he paid cash for the diamonds in HK then bring em back to the U.S. for his misterss.

You''re all smiley about this mistress and her diamonds. It disgusts me.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:36:23 AM
Author: megumic

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

I''m not sure if it''s just me, but doesn''t it seem only men can stay friends with their cheating friends? I have never been able to stay friends with cheaters b/c I''m uncomfortable with their values, quality of character and don''t feel comfortable maintaining them as friends. (Unless of course they make a turn around and change their lifestyle.)

that is my friend''s business,not mine.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:42:47 AM
Author: megumic

Date: 2/22/2010 12:03:07 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/20/2010 8:17:02 AM

Author: steph72276

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM

Author: Dancing Fire

an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.



the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That''s the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

the 3 diamonds would add up to over $45K. he paid cash for the diamonds in HK then bring em back to the U.S. for his misterss.

You''re all smiley about this mistress and her diamonds. It disgusts me.

i''m sure she was smiling too when he gave her the diamonds.

 

[kenny]

Separate bank accounts can work the other way too.

It allowed the Octavia to come as a complete surprise when I gave it to my sweetie.

 

[allycat0303]

I can see why men stay friends with their cheating friends. It''s because their loyalty to their friend is more important then their loyalty to the wife. My husband has lots of friends who cheat (Out of the 18 guys on the team, 10 of them have cheated or are cheating on their wives). My husband doesn''t feel that their affairs have anything to do with him. And I have to agree. It makes for interesting conversation my husband and I, but aside from that, I don''t think much of it. Except I wonder how the wives can be totally oblivious to the behavior. Seems to me that you would have a tiny, little doubt in your head.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:03:07 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 2/20/2010 8:17:02 AM
Author: steph72276

Date: 2/19/2010 2:22:31 PM
Author: Dancing Fire
an old Chinese saying...being a mistress is better than being a wife.


the mistress always receive expensive gifts.

i have a friend whom bought his misterss an E VVS2 2.10 ct rb,plus a pair of F VVS2 1ct studs.

btw; all three of these stone were GIA XXX, but are what PSers would call steep/deep stones.

That''s the perfect example of why no one in a marriage should be completely clueless when it comes to your finances. I would notice if $20 went unaccounted for, much less 20k+ for a diamond

the 3 diamonds would add up to over $45K. he paid cash for the diamonds in HK then bring em back to the U.S. for his misterss.

OK, sign me up!

Having struggled to cook a roast chicken dinner for Mr Gailey and our elderly neighbour last night and have just struggled to finish the clean-up this morning because I was in too much pain last night to do it - fell on some ice btw, being a mistress sounds like a mighty fine idea.

DF, you tell your buddy, if he needs a spare, where to find me.

 

[Allison D.]

Perry, I like wordsmithing as well as the next guy, but I think you''re so intently focusing on the trees that you''re missing the forest. SO....let''s remove the trees, hmmmm? Let''s remove the term "mistress" from the equation, because to me, the larger issue is much more important than debating whose dictionary is more right.

I don''t care WHAT you call them....mistresses, flings, hook-ups, WHATEVER......the point is, they shouldn''t feel deceived. They all knowingly entered into some form of relationship with a man they knew was married (at minimum).

If they feel "deceived" by the fact that he had several fling relationships (i..e I thought I was his ONLY extramarital relationship), then they''re not very bright. If he''ll cheat on his wife with YOU, there''s no reason he won''t have others besides you.

Silly thinking all around.

 

[megumic]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:04:23 PM
Author: allycat0303
I can see why men stay friends with their cheating friends. It''s because their loyalty to their friend is more important then their loyalty to the wife. My husband has lots of friends who cheat (Out of the 18 guys on the team, 10 of them have cheated or are cheating on their wives). My husband doesn''t feel that their affairs have anything to do with him. And I have to agree. It makes for interesting conversation my husband and I, but aside from that, I don''t think much of it. Except I wonder how the wives can be totally oblivious to the behavior. Seems to me that you would have a tiny, little doubt in your head.

I have to ask though, don''t you and your husband feel like you''re condoning the cheating/affairs/deception by remaining friends with these men? Do you feel a sense of responsibility to tell their wives what is going on behind their backs? If no, why not? If yes, have you told?

Don''t you think these women will find out eventually and you''ll feel guilty having known all along? Sure it''s none of your business, but what if it were you? Wouldn''t you want them to have the decency to tell you what was going on behind your back?

The pain cheating causes a family is simply incomprehensible. Generally speaking, it baffles me when others dismiss cheating as not their problem.

 

[megumic]

sorry. double post.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:27:28 PM
Author: Gailey

OK, sign me up!

Having struggled to cook a roast chicken dinner for Mr Gailey and our elderly neighbour last night and have just struggled to finish the clean-up this morning because I was in too much pain last night to do it - fell on some ice btw, being a mistress sounds like a mighty fine idea.

DF, you tell your buddy, if he needs a spare, where to find me.

Gailey
okay,what size diamond would you like?

i''ll be should he buy you a well cut stone.

 

[joflier]

Date: 2/22/2010 12:04:23 PM
Author: allycat0303
I can see why men stay friends with their cheating friends. It''s because their loyalty to their friend is more important then their loyalty to the wife. My husband has lots of friends who cheat (Out of the 18 guys on the team, 10 of them have cheated or are cheating on their wives). My husband doesn''t feel that their affairs have anything to do with him. And I have to agree. It makes for interesting conversation my husband and I, but aside from that, I don''t think much of it. Except I wonder how the wives can be totally oblivious to the behavior. Seems to me that you would have a tiny, little doubt in your head.

Their not. I would bet most of them know. Or strongly suspect. Deep down. They just pretend otherwise, for reasons all their own.