Should knots and feathers be avoided?

[Rockdiamond]

HI All!
This is a fairly common point of discussion for consumers.
My goal in advising consumers here is to educate based on real life experiences- which may contradict what online shoppers have been told. Both knots and feathers get a bad rap here.
My perspective is based on selecting diamonds in person- which is quite different than buying online- yet I find the two to be directly related. After all, even if one is purchasing online, eventually they will be looking at, and owning the diamond they have purchased.
When considering/comparing two diamonds online, since an in-person evaluation is not possible, it would seem to make a lot of sense to use the GIA plot/characteristics as deciding factors.
For this reason, many PS threads end up influencing consumers to avoid stones with knots, or feathers.
This may be a bad choice, because in real life comparisons, the stone being dissed here may be the far better choice.
Not that I'm suggesting such stones are necessarily the best choice- just that I've advised not ruling out such stones offhand, due only to that characteristic.

For the purposes of discussion, let's consider a comparison of two round SI2 diamonds.
Let's assume both are of equal make- PS approved CA/PA ( both would grade AGS 0)
If one has knot and or feather as the first inclusion listed, and the other has crystals ( for example)- it would seem to make sense not to choose the stone with a knot, or feather as the defining clarity characteristic.
But if we are examining both diamonds, it's quite possible that the stone with the knot or feather will be the better choice. There can be many reasons for this- one that comes to mind would be the placement and the possibility of being able to see the imperfections with the naked eye.

Given that @Karl_K is a well-respected participant ( deservedly so) and has expressed concerns about durability that I've never encountered- I would welcome others who have experience- trade or consumers- has anyone experienced durability issue based on knots and or feathers?

What is your impression of knots and feathers?

 

[Karl_K]

David,
Correction, I have no problem with most feathers in general, unless they have a cavity or knot in them or are in/near a princess cuts corner.

 

[kb1gra]

I think this is so subjective.

In round diamonds, for example, there's just so many on the market that there is no real reason, except price, to settle for some of the less desirable inclusions.

But let's say I'm looking for a pink diamond. Now the whole situation has changed. My pink stone was a relatively filthy I1 (not from you, David!) with every inclusion possible, pretty much, but the color was perfect and the price was great because of it. Still sparkled like crazy and it was PINK.

All that to say, where I would not accept a knot (say, in a round, because I don't really have to) I might be okay with it in an eye clean step cut with faceting I'm in love with, as an example.

I'm also lucky enough to have many diamonds and I might not be willing to accept it in a stone that should have great sentimental value, like an engagement ring, where I might be completely willing for a bracelet, rhr, or earring pair.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Like many aspects of diamond grading, it's a matter of degree. Shoppers should not categorically avoid either feathers or knots. In the higher clarities especially, neither is likely to present any cause for concern. In the lower clarities they may or may not be of concern and need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. A lab report will give indications about the level of concern you should have considering factors such as size and location. But a physical evaluation by a qualified professional during the return period is always your best protection.

 

[Swirl68]

I once considered an SI 2 stone with a knot on the plot the size of the San Andraes Fault. (It looked nothing like that in the video however.) I thought that if by slim chance it popped out and left a gaping hole I would just turn it in to my JM insurance and get a different stone. (I care nothing about mind-cleaness.)
It was suggested to me, however, that knot and its ugly plot might be considered a type of pre-existing condition and that it would not be covered if it popped out. That scared me! Was that just some wild what-if speculation? Have any of you experts seen something like this not be covered by typical jewelry insurance?

 

[headlight]

My diamond has a feather and I had no idea what it was, it certainly sounded benign!!! When I found out what it was I almost passed out! ("My diamond has a crack... what??!!!") Surprisingly, it is not the grade-setting inclusion of my stone (I guess that could be both good AND bad!). Crystal is listed first on the report. Surely I'm not happy about this but I do like to keep in mind that the diamond made it to me all the way from the depths of the earth and through its fashioning and being set in its mounting. It has a 4% girdle in a 6-prong setting so fingers crossed that it can survive ME

 

[Karl_K]

My diamond has a feather and I had no idea what it was, it certainly sounded benign!!! When I found out what it was I almost passed out! ("My diamond has a crack... what??!!!") Surprisingly, it is not the grade-setting inclusion of my stone (I guess that could be both good AND bad!). Crystal is listed first on the report. Surely I'm not happy about this but I do like to keep in mind that the diamond made it to me all the way from the depths of the earth and through its fashioning and being set in its mounting. It has a 4% girdle in a 6-prong setting so fingers crossed that it can survive ME

Someone close to me had a princess diamond in her E-ring, it had a large eye visible i1 feather in 1/2 the stone.
The ring was dropped and the stone shattered, the 1/2 with the feather looked brand new and the other side was bits and pieces.
I stopped worrying about feathers from that point on, other than princess corners.
If a diamond is hit hard enough and the right angle to break it its going to break feather or no feather.
Princess cut corners are delicate and I dont like anything that potentially may weaken them even a little bit.


Anyway my opinion if a diamond is hit hard enough and the right angle to damage it where it has a feather more than likely it would have been damaged if there was no feather.


Edit: pear and marquise cuts can have the same issues as princess cut corners at the points where I might reject them for a big feather near the point.

 

[headlight]

I appreciate your perspective, Karl!

The point made by Swirl is an interesting one... my stone is insured with specific reference to its GIA report #. It does make me wonder if they vet the reports of the stones they insure.

I know that Jewelers Mutual has no exclusions. (However, my ring is currently insured with GemShield as the 1st year coverage was included with the purchase of the diamond.)

I just checked GemShield's website that states:
Our policy is an “all risk” policy, meaning that everything is covered unless it is expressly excluded. There aren’t many exclusions. Any form of loss, damage, theft, or ‘mysterious disappearance’ is covered anywhere in the world. What is not covered are things like manufacturer’s defects, intentional loss or damage, and some highly unusual situations like nuclear hazard or war.

Could (would) a feather be considered a manufacturer's defect???

 

[Rockdiamond]

@headlight - your trepidation is precisely why I feel that the ill informed discussions here and other places on the internet are misleading and harmful. It’s a darn shame that someone’s peace of mind can be shattered due to a person with no trade experience calling a feather a “crack”. In pretty much every case I’ve seen these statements are made based on ignorance of the true nature of diamonds and feathers.
Just as I’ve never seen a knot pop out, an Si or better graded diamond breaking due to a feather is inconceivable. Even very imperfect stones with feathers- I’ve never seen one break due to the feather. And we’ve had some super imperfect pink diamonds- with large feathers- we’ve set them and not once has a stone broken due to a feather. And keep in mind that stones have indeed broken during setting over the years.
So please - enjoy your beautiful diamond and don’t let scare tactics dissuade you.
I’ve never heard of an insurance company deeming an imperfect stone “defective”
Of course in the event of replacement, the insured will need to accept a stone of similar clarity.
Thank youmto the trade members who’ve responded so far-hopefully more trade members will share their experiences.
As I said- I’ve been doing this for a lifetime- and have spoken to so many other dealers and cutters about this. But maybe others have had different experiences.

 

[headlight]

David, REALLY, REALLY appreciate this - thank you!

 

[AV_]

Could (would) a feather be considered a manufacturer's defect???

I have always thought that GIA's calling these things 'Clarity Characteristics' is meant to answer the question above.

There is interesting philosophy about what defects do to crystals - some make them tough, some crack them up; few can travel (expand); it (phil.) comes after experience.

What comes to mind: YF showing a feather expand in some early stage of cutting (but no more - as further facets are added on top of it) & some dark or white diamonds too tough to polish; then, how diamonds do cleave so well - the more perfect the better.

What does wear do that cutting / setting haven't

 

[Karl_K]

I appreciate your perspective, Karl!

The point made by Swirl is an interesting one... my stone is insured with specific reference to its GIA report #. It does make me wonder if they vet the reports of the stones they insure.

I know that Jewelers Mutual has no exclusions. (However, my ring is currently insured with GemShield as the 1st year coverage was included with the purchase of the diamond.)

I just checked GemShield's website that states:
Our policy is an “all risk” policy, meaning that everything is covered unless it is expressly excluded. There aren’t many exclusions. Any form of loss, damage, theft, or ‘mysterious disappearance’ is covered anywhere in the world. What is not covered are things like manufacturer’s defects, intentional loss or damage, and some highly unusual situations like nuclear hazard or war.

Could (would) a feather be considered a manufacturer's defect???

Interesting question.
I do not know of it ever happening and I would not expect it from a jewelry specific insurer.
Because it is so common in diamonds I do not think they would get by with it or even try it.
I know a big 3 auto/home/life insurance adjuster has claimed a cavity on the girdle was a pre-existing condition when there was damage in that area.
The jeweler had written it up as something like: chip on the girdle extending from a cavity.
After some hassle and help from the jeweler they paid for the replacement with no deduction for the cavity.
I do not know all the details first hand so I am not going to name the company.
I do know that the jeweler said he had never seen anything like that happening before that time.

In general when you run into issues on insurance claims(other than mysterious disappearance claims) for jewelry is when the adjuster knows nothing about it.

 

[Karl_K]

A long time ago we had an interesting discussion about if insurers starting to refuse or charge higher premiums for certain inclusions and clarity.
At the time it was considered impractical for them to do so.
The conclusion back then was no they just raise the rates for the entire group rather then even try to sort them.
These days with report check from all the major labs it might just be plausible to automate it and do so.

 

[Demon]

This is all good to hear. Years ago I bought a diamond with a good sized feather - enough to earn it an I1 clarity. Even though some people might be able to see it without magnification I could not, and the feather somewhat followed facet angles, face up. I didn't have idealscope images for it, but it did score a 1.8 on the HCA. It's been seen by 2 jewelers/gemologists, and neither one thought there was any vulnerability with it, though it looks huge to me when I loupe it. I've always been a little paranoid that it could break easily, but this thread puts me more at ease. Besides, it wasn't expensive. It's a .71 W-X, GIA certed, and cost a whopping $395.00 Since then I've gone with fancy colors, but it was the closest I could come at the time.

 

[Laila619]

It's personal preference. I avoid feathers, knots, and cavities. Also twinning wisps for the most part. For me, those inclusions are not "mind clean."

 

[John P]

What is your impression of knots and feathers?

I don't do impressions.

Inclusions are all different, they occur on a sliding scale and there are other variables to consider. What's the shape of the diamond? What's the location of the inclusion? What's its severity? Is there any strain under CP filters? What else is present?

In a general sense, diamonds go through such heat and pressure in sawing, blocking and polishing that normal wear should be safe. But there are always exceptions. Any diamond is a significant purchase so I will always recommend in-person analysis and vetting by an expert on the buyer's side, whether that's a trusted brand, a trusted seller or an independent evaluation.

There are other factors at play, too. What if a rogue stonesetter is in a rush to go home and watch GOT and applies uneven pressure when seating a princess cut with a VS2 feather in the corner? A few months later the ring takes a knock and the pressure releases.

Poor feather. They'll blame you. But it wasn't your fault.

 

[Rockdiamond]

John- now you’re going all Medieval on us!!!
I completely agree with what you wrote about how judging imperfections requires a visual assessment by a trained gemologist/ grader/appraiser.
I remember back in the dark ages, ( after my service to Daenerys Targaryen) during my training at Winston, how it was veddy veddy boring grading VVS and VS stones- the diamonds with imperfections were actually much more interesting to grade- and accurately grading SI and lower diamonds also required a more finely developed sense of judgment.
My goal in this thread was to point out that feathers and knots might be worse than other sorts of imperfections....but just as easily, they might not.
About the durability question- have you personally seen a princess cut break due to a feather?
I've seen many chipped princess cuts over the years- corners being especially vulnerable. But I can't recall a break specifically due to a feather.
Then again, even though I haven't seen a feather on a corner break, it surely may have happened.
But again- this is totally different than a feather in a round diamond.

 

[Todd Gray]

I've always rejected for cavities, chips, etch channels, extensive feathers or stacks of feathers (which means not all feathers because most are minor and of no consequence) knots, and laser drill holes.

The way I figure it is why worry about whether an inclusion may or may not pose a durability issue (and pass that risk on to your client) when there are plenty of other options worthy of consideration which do not pose the same risk?

Don't think a feather can spread? Sorry, I've seen it... Yea, it was a one-time thing, but frankly, that was one phone call I would have liked to avoid. And have avoided ever since by being super strict about what inclusions are acceptable to me.

For the record, I do not sell diamonds directly anymore, so this is not a me vs them type of statement, but merely a reflection of my personal feelings regarding certain types of inclusions.

And as @John Pollard pointed out, all it takes is a setter to not be fully present at just the right moment, to be in a hurry, or apply just a little pressure in just the right (or wrong place) for things to spin off in the wrong direction. I have three emails from clients in the past year who had to go back to the drawing board after (the same vendor) chipped the diamond they'd selected Obviously, some jewelers are more skilled and pay more attention than others.

 

[John P]

About the durability question- have you personally seen a princess cut break due to a feather?

I've seen what I described above. A ring dropped, a corner broke. There was a VS2 feather at the tip of that corner. The blame went there first. But as the diamond was unmounted it became clear the corner seating was scandalously uneven. The corners had been under constant pressure.

Do I think the feather caused it? No.
Do I think the feather was a conduit for pressure release? Yes.
Do I think the bench worker failed the store? Definitely.

Dracarys.

 

[Karl_K]

But as the diamond was unmounted it became clear the corner seating was scandalously uneven. The corners had been under constant pressure.
.

I think you could find a lot of people in the trade that would agree that setting issues is a huge contributing factor in princess corners breaking.
That being the case I like as little other potential weaknesses near the corners as possible.

 

[Rockdiamond]

In spite of my general statements, I agree with the {paranoia} ideas about princess cuts - and corner imperfections. When I've been offered a Princess Cut which has any sort of "stuff" near the corner, it freaks me out a bit....
BUT- it's more a "mind clean" thing.
As John (Snow) mentioned, the break he experienced was more likely due to a careless setting job. And careless setting work is surely responsible for exponentially more diamond chips and damage than either feather or knots.

I've always rejected for cavities, chips, etch channels, extensive feathers or stacks of feathers (which means not all feathers because most are minor and of no consequence) knots, and laser drill holes.

Thanks for contributing Todd!
I guess I feel that lumping all those sorts of issues together is part of why there's a general misunderstanding of feathers and knots.
For example, Laser Drill holes are in a completely different category.
In general, I'd put many cavities in the same categories as the vast majority of knots and feathers.
I've seen VVs1 stones with a cavity as the principle ( and only) imperfection.
I appreciate that Gia is a laboratory- and needs to use clinical terminology but come on! Do you know how miniscule a cavity needs to be to be graded VVS1?? Of course, Todd, you and John surely do.

In round diamonds, for example, there's just so many on the market that there is no real reason, except price, to settle for some of the less desirable inclusions.

This is a great point to discuss- thanks for raising it!
Sure, if one is looking for a 1.00 G/SI1, there's countless options.
But what if one is looking to spend less than $20k on a great looking 2.50ct RBC?
Options become far more limited- and most will be SI2's. In such a case, it could be the worst possible move to eliminate a given candidate due to a feather or a knot. ( Of course, the best candidate would not necessarily have a knot or a feather, but it could.)
And we could also and we need to extend these sort of unnecessary elimination concerns to almost any Fancy Shaped diamond- where the shape and overall light performance characteristics are far more individual.

ETA- apologies to those non Game of Thrones fans who won't get some of the jokes.....

 

[Rockdiamond]

Don't think a feather can spread? Sorry, I've seen it... Yea, it was a one-time thing, but frankly, that was one phone call I would have liked to avoid. And have avoided ever since by being super strict about what inclusions are acceptable to me.

Thanks again Todd! IN the interest of education....
Do you recall the particulars on this? What shape and size was the diamond? How was it set?
And in your opinion, what caused the feather to spread?

 

[MamaBee]

David,
Correction, I have no problem with most feathers in general, unless they have a cavity or knot in them or are in/near a princess cuts corner.

Yes..I remember you telling me this exactly when I was considering a diamond with a feather. I since purchased that diamond and am not concerned at all.

 

[OcnGypZ]

A number of years ago, I dropped a .52 diamond stud from about 9 ft up. It hit the tile floor. There had been a very small feather on a bezel facet. I VS2 stone. The feather spread.. and I gained a girdle chip. Que sera sera. I just replaced the stone. I could see the resulting feather with the naked eye easily. Lesson learned - I got my ears pierced - finally.

 

[John P]

Do you know how miniscule a cavity needs to be to be graded VVS1?? Of course, Todd, you and John (Snow) surely do.

Reminder: John Snow knows nothing.

The overarching issue here is a grading system that was never designed to be used this way. Back in the 1950s no one imagined the internet. They certainly never conceived that consumers would bypass jewelry professionals to comb over grading reports online. The consumer's first impression of a diamond was always the diamond. Abundant things were self-evident: Is it eye-clean? How much tint face-up? Is it sleepy? Does it sparkle nicely? This is why Richard Liddicoat didn't incorporate those things into the system. No consumer ever had to ask if a diamond was eye-clean...the diamond was right there.

Any notion that a VVS1 cavity might be a problem can be easily killed at the counter, with a loupe or a microscope, if the question comes up. But on the internet "cavity" sounds painful in any context. No one could have imagined the total reversal in presentation when the system was designed.

It's a shame, because I regularly hear tales of consumer freak-out, seeing online AGS PDFs. And they are seriously horrible. The whimsical, delicate plotting of a transparent VS2 crystal on the $100 hi-res printed platinum report comes out like a bright red open wound on the PDFs. And the diamond itself? Clean like the purest (Jon) snow.

As Melisandre might say... "The plots are dark, and full of terrors."

 

[Rockdiamond]

Spot on John!
For a seller with integrity- and a desire to give the client the best stone for the money, it's a frustrating situation having a shopper limit their candidates due to comments like "Cavity"- or feather- or knot. Or an AGS plot for a lovely stone that looks as though it's been through a sword fight.

A number of years ago, I dropped a .52 diamond stud from about 9 ft up. It hit the tile floor. There had been a very small feather on a bezel facet. I VS2 stone. The feather spread.. and I gained a girdle chip. Que sera sera. I just replaced the stone. I could see the resulting feather with the naked eye easily. Lesson learned - I got my ears pierced - finally.

A shame!!
Hearing the situation would give me a few questions........was the stone graded by GIA? If so, what was the clarity prior to the unfortunate incident. What shape diamond was it? Was it prong set?
Is it at all possible what you saw subsequent to the fall was a chip, as opposed to the feather actually increasing in size?

Please don't take my questions as doubting that your stone suffered damage.....but in the interest of education, knowing the particulars will be illuminating.


PS- for those following the little GOT banter....I'm binging it- and on season 6 so please, no spoilers!!
I definitely can't see John ( Snow or Pollard) as a know nothing....but I get the reference from where I'm at in the series....

 

[OcnGypZ]

Spot on John!
For a seller with integrity- and a desire to give the client the best stone for the money, it's a frustrating situation having a shopper limit their candidates due to comments like "Cavity"- or feather- or knot. Or an AGS plot for a lovely stone that looks as though it's been through a sword fight.


A shame!!
Hearing the situation would give me a few questions........was the stone graded by GIA? If so, what was the clarity prior to the unfortunate incident. What shape diamond was it? Was it prong set?
Is it at all possible what you saw subsequent to the fall was a chip, as opposed to the feather actually increasing in size?

Please don't take my questions as doubting that your stone suffered damage.....but in the interest of education, knowing the particulars will be illuminating.


PS- for those following the little GOT banter....I'm binging it- and on season 6 so please, no spoilers!!
I definitely can't see John ( Snow or Pollard) as a know nothing....but I get the reference from where I'm at in the series....

Both stones were originally I VS2. The feather was the worst inclusion. Then your usual crystals, pinpoints. GIA certs. Rounds, 4 prong platinum set. Oh no......I couldn't see the little feather with my naked eye, but 10x absolutely. And under 30x... ick.. but 30x doesn't count. After the fall.. there was the girdle chip and the feather was much bigger... and white and no magnification needed to see it. Holding the stone so that the feather was at the 4 o'clock position - it lengthened downward southwesterly towards the middle of the stone. Looking at the stone from the side - it was quite obvious to the naked eye as well. Honestly, the worst part - was telling my father.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Wow! What a freak occurrence.
Life ( and diamonds) are like that.
Do something a million times get the same result- the 1,000,001st time...pow!
Dropping an earring to have the diamond chip is one of those types of things. The weight of a diamond and setting is so slight.....so there would not be a lot of force when it hit the ground...but stranger things have happened. But this is truly a one in a million.
I'd loved to have seen the stones before and after....but I don't think we can safely assume the feather was responsible for such a freak occurrence....
Thanks for sharing!