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should i remove GIA inscription? plz give me advice!

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ddcha

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I sold my diamond recently. It was an egl f vs1. I had it appraised by an appraiser with GIA credentials as an F vs2. Buyer bought it and decided to get it GIA graded and inscribed with GIA number. But it came back graded F si2. He wants a refund but it is now inscribed.

My concern is that I never guaranteed GIA grading and I want to give a full refund. But, I am worried about what the inscription has done to the value of my stone. I think the market value of an EGL fvs1 is higher than a GIA fsi2. And now the inscription clearly identifies it as a GIA stone.

What advice would you give me? I want to give him a refund but he potentially reduced the mkt value of my stone by inscribing it. Can I get inscription removed without any harm or impact on stone''s weight, polish, etc? Or is there another fair resolution?

Please help.
 

blackwave

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
25
I''m not sure why you are responsible for EGL''s grading. The ring was accurately described as EGL F VS1, and for EGL that was correct. The buyer was aware of this before the purchase. If you sent the diamond to "Chris''s Diamond Grading" (me!) and I described it D VVS1 the value wouldn''t change, it would just be taken into account that my tolerances aren''t as strict.
 

ddcha

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Thanks for your reply. I agree with you but I want to accommodate him without hurting myself.any other advice assuming I want to accommodate him?
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
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You were injured at the very begining by buying into the problematic grading provided on some secondary lab reports. The value remains the value although if you wish to represent the diamond as only graded by EGL then you become part of the overall problem of misrepresentation. I can''t say I''d lame you for passing along your problem to the next owner. this is the unfortunate strategy many "legitimate" retailers use daily and you do not see any of them going off to jail or paying fines. It all depends on your internal ethical code and how you want to treat other people. It is up to you to decide.

You can remove the inscription on a diamond with a bruted girdle with just a couple strokes of a diamond impregnated knife sharpener. If the girdle is faceted, then you would leave a scratched zone, so I recommend a diamond cutter remove the inscription if that is your decision.
 

K9

Brilliant_Rock
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776
I''m sure you want to do the nice thing by accepting a refund, but you sold the diamond with the information that was available to you. Each grader will grade differently and it''s not fair for the buyer to even expect a refund on this item. A buyer knows there is a certain amount of risk involved with buying a diamond from a private seller.

As to your question about the inscription, I don''t know the answer. BUT, considering the buyer actually altered the item by having this inscription done, I again am not sure I''d at all accept a return.

In turn, if you do give a refund and leave the inscription, at least you won''t be in this predicament again as you have GIA supporting documentation.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I think you should give him a refund and leave the inscription and sell it as GIA has certified it. Otherwise, you''d knowingly be deceiving the next buyer. This is exactly why we tell people here to only buy GIA and AGS graded stones. You may have innocently bought it in the first place, but now that you know the EGL cert is inflated, I don''t see how you could resell it as F VS1 in good conscience. There is a big difference between VS1 and SI2.
 

ddcha

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Date: 4/18/2009 11:31:55 AM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I think you should give him a refund and leave the inscription and sell it as GIA has certified it. Otherwise, you''d knowingly be deceiving the next buyer. This is exactly why we tell people here to only buy GIA and AGS graded stones. You may have innocently bought it in the first place, but now that you know the EGL cert is inflated, I don''t see how you could resell it as F VS1 in good conscience. There is a big difference between VS1 and SI2.
Yes, EGL certs are inflated relative to GIA certs. They both have their own methodologies and own guidelines of what constitutes a VS1 vs. SI2, etc. This is why EGLs sell at a discount to GIA stones, which everyone knows. Some people will still buy an EGL stone because they think the discount warrants it. Some won''t.

However, I didn''t sell a GIA certed stone. I sold an EGL certed stone and never guaranteed anything. He altered what I sold to him and would like a full refund back. That alteration impacts the market value of my stone. From my research, an EGL F VS1 of this cut fetches on average $5500. A GIA F Si2 of this cut fetches on average $4500. Because of the inscription, I can no longer sell as an EGL.

All matters aside, imagine you owned an EGL stone and were in my position. Forget what you paid for it or better yet, assume you inherited it and wanted to sell it. Would you accept it back after buyer inscribed it and GIA cert came in worse than expected? Would you give him a full refund?
 

oldmancoyote

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Aug 22, 2008
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If I sold it conditional to the buyer sending it off to GIA and having it come back as an F/VS1, yes, absolutely. Not otherwise. You did not misrepresent what you sold; they bought the diamond in full knowledge of the stone having an EGL and not a GIA cert. If they chose to send it to GIA, it's their business, not yours, and as far as I know GIA actually charges separately for a laser inscription, so they didn't have to do that, did they?

BTW - purely hypothetically. Had this come back from GIA E/VS1, what would the buyer have done? Paid you some more money? Or would you not even know about it?
 

AprilBaby

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Why did he laser inscribe it if he wasn''t going to keep it? I wouldn''t take it back as it has been altered. Not part of the deal. He got what he paid for..a EGL F VS1.
 

MMT

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Date: 4/18/2009 1:00:18 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
If I sold it conditional to the buyer sending it off to GIA and having it come back as an F/VS1, yes, absolutely. Not otherwise. You did not misrepresent what you sold; they bought the diamond in full knowledge of the stone having an EGL and not a GIA cert. If they chose to send it to GIA, it''s their business, not yours, and as far as I know GIA actually charges separately for a laser inscription, so they didn''t have to do that, did they?

BTW - purely hypothetically. Had this come back from GIA E/VS1, what would the buyer have done? Paid you some more money? Or would you not even know about it?
Very well said
 

swingirl

Ideal_Rock
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I don''t understand why he would have had the inscription made if he was unhappy with the results. In my opinion he damaged the stone because if you do take it back you can no longer sell it as a EGL stone without removing the inscription.

Are you a retailer or a private party selling a stone?
 

ddcha

Shiny_Rock
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Date: 4/18/2009 1:49:16 PM
Author: swingirl
I don''t understand why he would have had the inscription made if he was unhappy with the results. In my opinion he damaged the stone because if you do take it back you can no longer sell it as a EGL stone without removing the inscription.

Are you a retailer or a private party selling a stone?
I''m a private party. I am upgrading my wife''s e-ring for our 10 year anniversary. We were very happy with this stone. It has an HCA score of 1.1
Back when we bought it, EGL''s reputation wasn''t as bad as it is today. GIAs sold at a premium, but not by much.

I think the fair thing to do is to withhold some of his money and agree to a refund based on the final selling price I can get?

here are the specs:

EGL report states:
weight: 1.03ct
shape: round brilliant cut
measurements: 6.57x6.53x3.95
depth: 60.3%
table: 57%
crown height: 15%
pavilion depth: 43%
girdle thickness: thin to medium faceted
finish: excellent
clarity: VS1
color: F
photoluminescence: none
comment: ideal cut
 

vespergirl

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Date: 4/18/2009 1:31:23 PM
Author: AprilBaby
Why did he laser inscribe it if he wasn''t going to keep it? I wouldn''t take it back as it has been altered. Not part of the deal. He got what he paid for..a EGL F VS1.
I agree with this. I don''t think that you are contractually obligated to accept it & give him a refund. He altered the merchandise - now he has to keep it.
 

swingirl

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
5,659
You are not obligated to take back the ring. You aren''t a dealer with a refund policy. And you didn''t try to mislead him. You sold him an stone with a grading report from EGL not GIA. Why are you feeling guilty? Is he a friend?
 

Rhea

Ideal_Rock
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6,294
Three steps out for clarity is a pretty big difference, but he altered the stone. An SI2 might be hard to sell because are worried about it being eye-clean. Did you sell it as EGL certificated or uncerted or...? If it was EGL or none then I don''t think I''d take it back, especially as the other party had it altered.
 

honey22

Ideal_Rock
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Jul 28, 2007
Messages
4,458
You don''t owe him anything in this respect. You sold him a EGL graded stone, then he went and ''damaged it'' by having it inscribed. You didn''t mislead or decieve him, you don''t have to give him his money back. He should have had it appraised independently before final purchase, so why should you pay for his mistake. Now that he had the stone inscribed, you are set to lose money, so how is that fair.

I would just move on personally.
 

mrscushion

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
3,309
I think if he is a friend and you have a relationship to preserve, then you should do as you suggested and refund him based on the new amount you can sell the stone for as a GIA-certified FSI2 stone.

If he is not a friend, I see no reason you should give a refund. He bought based on an EGL report and an independent GIA appraisal; you did not deceive him. Now he has altered the merchandise. I can't imagine wanting a refund in these circumstances.
 

LadyBlue

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Date: 4/18/2009 12:30:15 PM
Author: ddcha
Date: 4/18/2009 11:31:55 AM

Author: diamondseeker2006

I think you should give him a refund and leave the inscription and sell it as GIA has certified it. Otherwise, you''d knowingly be deceiving the next buyer. This is exactly why we tell people here to only buy GIA and AGS graded stones. You may have innocently bought it in the first place, but now that you know the EGL cert is inflated, I don''t see how you could resell it as F VS1 in good conscience. There is a big difference between VS1 and SI2.
Yes, EGL certs are inflated relative to GIA certs. They both have their own methodologies and own guidelines of what constitutes a VS1 vs. SI2, etc. This is why EGLs sell at a discount to GIA stones, which everyone knows. Some people will still buy an EGL stone because they think the discount warrants it. Some won''t.


However, I didn''t sell a GIA certed stone. I sold an EGL certed stone and never guaranteed anything. He altered what I sold to him and would like a full refund back. That alteration impacts the market value of my stone. From my research, an EGL F VS1 of this cut fetches on average $5500. A GIA F Si2 of this cut fetches on average $4500. Because of the inscription, I can no longer sell as an EGL.


All matters aside, imagine you owned an EGL stone and were in my position. Forget what you paid for it or better yet, assume you inherited it and wanted to sell it. Would you accept it back after buyer inscribed it and GIA cert came in worse than expected? Would you give him a full refund?

I totally understand you, you did not sell the stone saying was a GIA certificate F VS1, so you did not lie to the client, I''m sorry for the person that bought the stone for you. But this is not your fault, this person made already an alteration to the original stone putting the GIA code on the stone. So I would not accept the stone back if I was you.
 

LadyBlue

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Date: 4/18/2009 1:41:14 PM
Author: MMT
Date: 4/18/2009 1:00:18 PM

Author: oldmancoyote

If I sold it conditional to the buyer sending it off to GIA and having it come back as an F/VS1, yes, absolutely. Not otherwise. You did not misrepresent what you sold; they bought the diamond in full knowledge of the stone having an EGL and not a GIA cert. If they chose to send it to GIA, it''s their business, not yours, and as far as I know GIA actually charges separately for a laser inscription, so they didn''t have to do that, did they?


BTW - purely hypothetically. Had this come back from GIA E/VS1, what would the buyer have done? Paid you some more money? Or would you not even know about it?
Very well said
ditto
 

beach

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
714
Thrito

On a side note, how did the independent appraiser miss the clarity by that much? There is signficant difference in the clarity range. Did you show them the cert. prior to their evaluation? What did the appraiser say when you told them about what GIA said? They were GIA trained right? They should get the feedback too to help with their grading in the future. Good luck!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Very interesting dilema

Date: 4/18/2009 2:01:37 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 4/18/2009 1:31:23 PM
Author: AprilBaby
Why did he laser inscribe it if he wasn''t going to keep it? I wouldn''t take it back as it has been altered. Not part of the deal. He got what he paid for..a EGL F VS1.
I agree with this. I don''t think that you are contractually obligated to accept it & give him a refund. He altered the merchandise - now he has to keep it.
GIA automatically laser inscribe every stone that has the small certificate so they can identify diamonds that are resubmitted to them.

I suggest you ask the buyer to pay the cost of erasing the inscription. If he knew the sale was conditional on the GIA grade he should have paid the higher price for a cert with an inclusion plot and no compulsory inscription.
 

oldmancoyote

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
755
That''s interesting. The way GIA phrase things on their fees schedule makes it sound as if the laser inscription is voluntary - just free if with a "Dossier" (small report, no plot), and extra payment with a Grading Report.

However, Garry, I would have an ethical problem with what you are suggesting. After we (and many other diamond info sources) keep hammering into people that GIA and AGS are more reliable, etc etc, why should the GIA information be "forgotten" - just because it''s an inconvenient truth? I know it''s a lot easier to say this for someone that has no skin in the game, but still...

In addition, ddcha, consider what would happen if you decided to erase the inscription and put the stone back up for sale. Next seller that comes along asks for a sale conditional on a GIA report. What do you do then?
 

RBD hunter

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
46
The new owner/buyer should have specified that they wanted an accurate grading done before committing to the GIA laser inscription.

That being said IT IS harder to do than just sending the diamond in for a cert.

It all comes down to communication with all parties involved (even then) getting things done right the first time may not happen.

My story
I was interested in a diamond from a private party across the country.
So I had the seller send the GIA diamond to an independent appraiser.
The seller did not send the appraiser the current GIA cert (he didn't think it would matter)
The appraiser didn't even know it had a current cert.
The appraiser sent the diamond to GIA for a re cert and inscription.....

In my case the diamond checked out just like the last GIA cert and all went well.
Had it not come back with the same grading?? It should have not come back with a laser inscription.
 

sonnyjane

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Messages
2,476
Date: 4/18/2009 5:09:50 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Folks, it appears that ddcha has a little problem with telling the truth?


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-cert-came-in-very-weak-should-i-ask-them-to-redo.112690/


He clearly states that HE sent it back to the GIA and was asking if he should try to get them to ''change their mind''
I noticed that too. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that your story is true, you owe this person nothing. They should have done more research into EGL vs. GIA, you never misrepresented yourself. I''m actually a bit curious why you''re out to appease the buyer so much since they bought exactly what you sold, and then inscribed the diamond, "decreasing the value" as you said. If everything is as you said, I wouldn''t give the money back, and quite frankly if he were to ever take you to court or anything, he wouldn''t have a case.

This, of course, is only if your story is true, and you didn''t just go to GIA to have your own diamond certified, on a whim had it inscribed, and are now regretting that decision and asking if you should remove it.
 

ddcha

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
170
Date: 4/18/2009 5:09:50 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Folks, it appears that ddcha has a little problem with telling the truth?

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/gia-cert-came-in-very-weak-should-i-ask-them-to-redo.112690/

He clearly states that HE sent it back to the GIA and was asking if he should try to get them to 'change their mind'
I told the story from my point of view in that other thread because it was easier than trying to explain all the surrounding details. I'm not trying to conceal any truth or anything. Sorry.

The person I sold to is my brother's brother in law. Not a stranger. Regardless of who he is, he's young, he spent a good portion of his savings on this stone, I know how he feels, and I want to try and accomodate.

In terms of inscription, it was a choice he was given. He wanted the inscription but didn't ask for the results prior to inscribing. Yes, his fault, but just didn't imagine it would come so bad. He thought in his head it would be one notch lower than my appraisal which was VS2, so it was expected worst case SI1, which he could live with but the two notches bothered him too much.

I got my stone appraised about 7 years ago. I did not show them the certificate. They did the clarity viewing with me. The appraiser said out loud, "ah, just missed VS1. I'm grading it VS2." Then I showed her that EGL had VS1 on it. But she stuck to VS2.

GIA appraiser talked to the buyer and explained that it was these little needles that both EGL and the appraiser had missed. They only saw the inclusion of the "crystal" which was obvious, but under 30x magnification they could see needles. This is what the buyer explained to me.

If it didn't have the inscription, I would try to sell it as an EGL stone, F VS1, but also give them a copy of my appraisal that says F VS2. If they say subject to GIA grading, I will tell them that I will not guarantee anything in terms of what GIA will grade it. That is how I would sell it. That is how it was sold to me, and that is how I sold it to the current buyer. And I would have to sell it at a good discount obviously because I'm a private seller, and buyers tend to feel like they're taking greater risk with private sellers. But better offer that discount from a higher market value than from a lower market value (if I sell as a GIA F SI2 certed stone).

Yes, I'm disappointed by the GIA grading. But to me, it's still a HCA 1.1 scoring stone. Beautiful proportions, looks amazing in an idealscope, and I can't see any inclusions with my naked eye. And when I look with a little scope (the ones in the jewelry store), I just see the little crystal inclusion, no needles. My wife loved the stone, and I did too. I still think it's a great stone.

Thank for all your feedback so far folks. I'm having buyer send me an actual copy of the GIA report and I'm gonna ask Mark T to give me a sense of what fair market value would be if I tried to sell it. I'm in the process of making my 10-yr anniversary ring upgrade with Mark T!!!
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
14,069
With all this relationship, why not just give him a discount on the stone and refund him part of the money and let him keep the stone since he already altered it?

It is still weird what the GIA appraiser said. Aren''t the suppose to grade clarity face-up at 10x? Why did he say he look at 30X and find the needles thus dropping the clarity grade?
 

ddcha

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Messages
170
Date: 4/18/2009 8:37:02 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
With all this relationship, why not just give him a discount on the stone and refund him part of the money and let him keep the stone since he already altered it?

It is still weird what the GIA appraiser said. Aren''t the suppose to grade clarity face-up at 10x? Why did he say he look at 30X and find the needles thus dropping the clarity grade?
That''s an interesting point you raise. Is that what GIA is supposed to do? 10x? I am just going by what the buyer told me. Hopefully the detailed report may have this stuff in it.

I did offer him a discount and encouraged him to take the stone to a jewelry store and compare it to other F Vs2 stones to see if he could tell the difference. He apparently went to Tiffany''s and compared the stone with a Tiffany stone and he said the difference was "big" and he realized even more that "this is not what he wants". I kind of raised my brow a bit, but who cares at this point. My stone is tainted in the buyer''s mind and I''m not going to try to convince him anymore.

It''s an awkward situation.
 

Stone-cold11

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Date: 4/18/2009 8:40:49 PM
Author: ddcha
Date: 4/18/2009 8:37:02 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

With all this relationship, why not just give him a discount on the stone and refund him part of the money and let him keep the stone since he already altered it?

It is still weird what the GIA appraiser said. Aren''t the suppose to grade clarity face-up at 10x? Why did he say he look at 30X and find the needles thus dropping the clarity grade?
That''s an interesting point you raise. Is that what GIA is supposed to do? 10x? I am just going by what the buyer told me. Hopefully the detailed report may have this stuff in it.

I did offer him a discount and encouraged him to take the stone to a jewelry store and compare it to other F Vs2 stones to see if he could tell the difference. He apparently went to Tiffany''s and compared the stone with a Tiffany stone and he said the difference was ''big'' and he realized even more that ''this is not what he wants''. I kind of raised my brow a bit, but who cares at this point. My stone is tainted in the buyer''s mind and I''m not going to try to convince him anymore.

It''s an awkward situation.
This is an article on clarity by GOG http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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As this unfolds the thing in my mind is how can an EGL VS1 drop to SI2.


There should never be any assumptions about GIA''s grading either - personally I find more percieved variation in what I see than from other labs (I rarely see any EGL though).

The only thing I can think is the stone has a crown side or girdle surface reaching inclusion - GIA can be very (?excessive?) hard on these - and that could explain the GIA "educated" appraiser (there is no such thing as a GIA appraiser).
If that is the case then it could explain the big difference in grades.
 
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