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Should i pay for gold weight before polishing ?

JohnnyKarate

Rough_Rock
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Aug 1, 2016
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12
Hey guys. I got a ring made and i am paying a per gram rate for casting grain. The thing is the ring ended up being 20 grams but the jeweler wants me to pay for 24 grams because that's what it weighed before sanding and polishing. It that normal ? Thanks alot.
 

Karl_K

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Aug 4, 2008
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9,479
Yes its normal because the gold was lost in the process.
The jeweler had to pay for the 24 so its reasonable to bill for the 24.
 

JohnnyKarate

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Aug 1, 2016
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Ya i guess that makes sense. The problem is that when they made the wax with their 3D printer it came out with these humps on it that weren't in the CAD file so they had to sand them down which caused it to come out heavier than normal. Also i made a mistake, it was 26 grams and now it's only 20 grams and they also said they don't have tools to hallmark it..
 

JohnnyKarate

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Aug 1, 2016
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Ya i know what those are but these were humps in the wax from their 3D printer. The ring was a slightly different shape than it is in the CAD file.
 

Karl_K

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A wax is never perfect and its normal for some material to be lost in the finishing process.
Most places don't break out material cost for this very reason.
It was lost in the production so in my opinion its fair to charge for it and
that is the standard industry practice to factor it in the price.
It is unusual to break out material costs like that at the consumer level so most never know.
 

OoohShiny

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JohnnyKarate|1474494237|4079347 said:
also said they don't have tools to hallmark it..
This is ringing all sorts of alarm bells with me.

If they have the ability to create wax moulds, it would indicate they have done this sort of work before?

But they are saying they don't have hallmarking tools?


I thought that it was a legal obligation to hallmark precious metals?

What sort of jeweller does not have the tools that everyone in the trade has??



What happens if they refuse to hallmark it, you pay for 18k gold and they only give you 9k gold? You then have no comeback.

I would pay for this on credit card so you have extra protection if it turns out something is not right.

I would also report them to your local Trading Standards organisation (if one exists) or even the Police if they are trying to pull a fast one on you.
 

JohnnyKarate

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Aug 1, 2016
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Hey guys yes it kind of made me wonder. They say the punches are in the mail since they just ordered them... They also said they can't guarantee if the ring turns out a little less than 18k like 17.5 but to let them know if it is like 16k :Up_to_something:

Just got a bad vibe from them. They are making my ring now and i haven't paid yet, what do you recommend ?

Thanks for the advice.
 

denverappraiser

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JohnnyKarate|1474569532|4079635 said:
Hey guys yes it kind of made me wonder. They say the punches are in the mail since they just ordered them... They also said they can't guarantee if the ring turns out a little less than 18k like 17.5 but to let them know if it is like 16k :Up_to_something:

Just got a bad vibe from them. They are making my ring now and i haven't paid yet, what do you recommend ?

Thanks for the advice.
Well, according to the FTC, that's exactly what they're guaranteeing you by providing you a sales receipt that says 18k on it, stamp or not. In the US, 17.5001 can be legally rounded to 18 and in most other places 18 has to be at least 18 and, presumably, less than 19.

It sounds like he's putting the onus on you here. I'm curious how he proposes you test this.
 

Gypsy

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I'd tell him honestly, that he's shady and walk away.
 

JohnnyKarate

Rough_Rock
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Aug 1, 2016
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Ya Gypsy that's what i'm thinking.

@Denverappraiser Thanks for that info about the karats. I assume i would have to get it tested from another jeweler.

They made one ring that weighed 22g out of casting and after polishing it came to 20g which i know is normal and i was fine with that. The issue was the ring was full of porosity so he had to re-do it. Now this ring came out to 26g before polishing not including the sprues. So with that and now he can't hallmark it until a later date makes me just want to go elsewhere. Plus the 3D printed wax/resin came out crooked both times..
 

OoohShiny

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So, let's review what you have posted...


The 'draft' version in wax/resin came out crooked.

The first attempt came out porous.

The second attempt apparently used 4g more gold than the first attempt, which you cannot prove and are paying for but not seeing in the ring.

He is putting the responsibility on you for confirming what karat the gold is, despite this being his day-to-day business.

He says he can't hallmark it or mark the karat of the gold before you buy it and leave the shop, because 'the punches for hallmarking and karat weight are in the mail', despite the fact this is presumably his day-to-day business that has been operating for a number of years, so you could be paying for 9k instead of 18k and then be accused of swapping the ring when you go back after having it tested and finding out what they have done.

He can't guarantee the actual karat of the gold, despite the fact he is presumably buying the gold you have requested (18k) and just melting it into the ring shape you want.



Does any of the above sound 'right' to you?

What would be your advice if your mother came to you and described the above?
 

oldminer

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One might find this conversation humorous in some ways or unfortunate in others. You will ALWAYS pay for the final product regardless of loss in casting to finishing. Nearly all the gold filed and polished off is recovered and re-used eventually by refining. Any deal you make should be based on the cost for the finished product because without proper finishing and polishing, the end result is fairly much worthless other than for scrap purposes. If you insist on paying for the metal separately, then you will pay a further premium for labor and loss of weight in finishing. If you think the end result will be lower, you are probably fooling only yourself unless the seller is a novice.

Karat stamping is not required. The FTC says when a maker's mark is in a ring it must be karat stamped, but a lot of unstamped gold jewelry is in circulation and the FTC does not waste any time with enforcement of any other policy on stamping. If a maker's mark is missing, then any karat content warranty falls solely on the seller. Often sellers have no idea of the veracity of the karat content beyond what they may have been verbally told.
 

MollyMalone

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Oldminer|1474643937|4079940 said:
* * * Karat stamping is not required. The FTC says when a maker's mark is in a ring it must be karat stamped, but a lot of unstamped gold jewelry is in circulation and the FTC does not waste any time with enforcement of any other policy on stamping. If a maker's mark is missing, then any karat content warranty falls solely on the seller. Often sellers have no idea of the veracity of the karat content beyond what they may have been verbally told.
David, I think you meant to type the converse: When a manufacturer/maker or retailer does have gold or silver merchandise -- intended for consumer purchase -- stamped with a metal quality mark, like 14K, they are required [by the National Gold & Silver Stamping Act of 1906 a/k/a/ Jewelers’ Liability Act (Gold and Silver Articles] to also engrave/stamp their registered trademark or identifiable name.

That way, you know who's to be held accountable if the gold or silver alloy actually does not live up to the metal quality mark's representation, allowing for the slight deviations permitted under the statute and, in turn, FTC regulations.

ETA in the case of gold items, "the actual fineness of such gold or alloy shall not be less by more than three one-thousandth parts than the fineness indicated by the mark stamped, branded, engraved, [etc]...." 15 U.S.C § 295.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/295
 

OoohShiny

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MollyMalone|1474650476|4079984 said:
Oldminer|1474643937|4079940 said:
* * * Karat stamping is not required. The FTC says when a maker's mark is in a ring it must be karat stamped, but a lot of unstamped gold jewelry is in circulation and the FTC does not waste any time with enforcement of any other policy on stamping. If a maker's mark is missing, then any karat content warranty falls solely on the seller. Often sellers have no idea of the veracity of the karat content beyond what they may have been verbally told.
David, I think you meant to type the converse: When a manufacturer/maker or retailer does have gold or silver merchandise -- intended for consumer purchase -- stamped with a metal quality mark, like 14K, they are required [by the National Gold & Silver Stamping Act of 1906 a/k/a/ Jewelers’ Liability Act (Gold and Silver Articles] to also engrave/stamp their registered trademark or identifiable name.

That way, you know who's to be held accountable if the gold or silver alloy actually does not live up to the metal quality mark's representation, allowing for the slight deviations permitted under the statute and, in turn, FTC regulations.
My concern is that by avoiding stamping the karat mark (and therefore, as per the above post, their maker's mark) they are attempting to dodge any subsequent liabilty issues by being able to deny any connection to the jewellery in question!
 

JohnnyKarate

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 1, 2016
Messages
12
I talked to him and he says they hallmark their stuff on the cad file when they are designing it so he has no need for hallmarking punches and in this case since i brought the cad file to them they aren't able to. As for the porosity he said he would laser it if it was bad. He said he just had to re-do a ring 8 times because of porosity..

And yes @Oldminer i thought they just refined gold that was sanded off. He is telling me it came out 6 grams heavier the second time because he had to add more sprues to avoid porosity again like the first ring.

Thanks for the help guys.
 
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