LiW should i be upset?

[thedreamer]

Hi everybody, I''m a longtime lurker (actually typing that makes me feel like a creepo, but I guess everybody lurks at first) with a possibly serious issue. Just a warning, this might be a long post!
A little background information:
My bf and I have been together for a little over two years and we are both in our last semesters of college. He is going to be 24 in November, and I will be 23 in December and we just recently moved in together. I thought everything in relationship to our future together was going smoothly until the other night. He dropped a bombshell and I honestly can''t get over it.

Back up 4 months: we are on a European vacation together as I had just finished studying in Prague. We weren''t communicating like we usually did, and I figured it was because I had been gone for four months and the time and distance was hard on us. We talked everything over and I CLEARLY laid out what I wanted in my future. I made it a point to say that I wanted to get married someday, hopefully to him, and that I would like to have a family. We talked about traveling and kids and everything that people in serious relationships should talk about. Then he threw me off guard by actually getting excited about getting married. We both agreed that because we want to continue with school- me law school next fall and him a Ph.D in public health starting next fall- we should wait until we are around 27ish or at least financially stable enough to get married.

I, being the girl that I am, started browsing the internet and found pricescope. He knows about the site, and he will often look with me and poke fun at me being obsessed with learning everything I can about diamonds or rings or whatever I''m learning about that day. Even though I knew that the engagement was years away (one reason I waited to join, I felt strange admitting there is no proposal coming any time soon) I still enjoyed looking and lots of times I will show him pictures of things I like.

So, back to the other night. I made a comment about Mokume bands and said that it would be cool if we got bands like that someday. And then he dropped this bombshell: I NEVER WANT TO GET MARRIED. He didn''t yell, as the caps lock would suggest, he just said it nonchalantly like thats something I always knew. So, needless to say I became very emotional. I told him that getting married is something that I have ALWAYS wanted. He proceeded to say that it doesn''t symbolize anything because so many people get divorced and its not a guarantee. . . then he also said that not marrying somebody doesn''t mean that you don''t love them with all of your heart and want to be with them forever. In my distress I asked him why he would EVER say he wanted to marry me if he knew in his heart he didn''t ( and when he told me, it wasn''t in passing-- he started thinking of ways that we could get married. . . like in a hot air balloon on vacation in Peru or on top of a mountain over looking Albuquerque with just our parents and siblings). He replied: I just wanted to make you happy.

Well, he didn''t make me happy. He made me miserable. We both ended up extremely emotional and I finally said that if he won''t marry me I will find somebody who will- which pretty much destroyed him. He lost it, not in a bad way, just got more emotional than I have ever seen him and said he didn''t understand why getting married meant so much to me- and then I of course responded that I didn''t understand why he didn''t feel it was important. In the end he said if I would ever leave him due to not getting married, then he would just marry me. OBVIOUSLY not the answer I wanted. The next morning he told me he felt bad because he was being selfish and he should consider more what is important to me.

We haven''t talked about it since then, and I don''t know what to do. I mean, I love him more than life. . . I don''t believe in soul mates, but if I did- he would be it. He is my best friend. Its when I think of these things that I wonder why marriage is so important to me, when I know that he is more important than a slip of paper claiming he loves me will ever be. He also said that maybe someday he will change his mind. . . and the thing is, I know I''m young and I''m willing to wait. I also know that I don''t want to be 45 with kids that have a different last name than me and still only be his ''girlfriend''.

I have a feeling people will say ''walk away'' but is there anybody out there that would say stay? When it comes down to it, what are the reasons that have to make marriage so important? (this ideas can help me in the later discussions I''m sure he and I will have on this topic-- I already stated tax breaks and possible hospital scenarios but he wasn''t impressed)

Thanks in advance for reading this, and the responses I hope to get

 

[decodelighted]

Hmmmm. Okay. My gut feeling on this is that he''s young & not really sure HOW he feels about marriage *really*. Still wishy-washy on it. So much of who you are as a person and who you will be is STILL FORMING. Opinions on things CHANGE DRAMATICALLY between 20-25, 25-30. MANY people go through stages of "I''m never getting married" (waste of time, no guarantee, so many divorces etc. etc.). People also have a tendency to tell other people what they want to hear just to please them without thinking of future consequences. (i.e. -- fantasizing about wedding plans while feeling conflicted).

Since you are young too ... and not really thinking of getting hitched for another four? five? years ANYWAY -- I don''t know if this current phase of his is worth breaking up over. I don''t even think it was *really* a malicious lie ... just that he''s not as self-aware as you are & more eager to please. Or, as a said before ... maybe just kind of testing out the options & making up opinions that feel right at the moment.

People either grow together or grow apart. If you start growing apart ... break up. If you grow together & start wanting the same things & sharing the same values (marriage for starters) ... re-open engagement discussions THEN.

I''ll say that I went through a "never gonna do it" phase ... and I''m almost at my 1st anniversary! (Though the phase was about 25-30 ... and now I''m 40).

 

[Independent Gal]

ETA: Just saw Deco's post, and mine seems to be 'ditto' of everything she says.

Well, the hospital scenarios aren't nothing... And unmarried couples have to be very careful about wills, or economic chaos can ensue, in case of tragedy (heaven forbid).

Marriage isn't for everyone. My brother is 34 and has been with his partner for 11 years. They will never marry. They own a home together and are a permanent couple and marriage is just not for them. My friend S and her partner L have lived together for 7 years and they will never marry. Not their thing.

Similarly, children aren't something that everyone wants. That's OK too.

But the point of the parallel being that that is JUST FINE as long as both partners are on the same page. If one of you wants a marriage (which really is more than a piece of paper... the classic answer 'if that's all it is, why are you so against it?' is a good one) and the other doesn't, that's an extremely serious problem.

That said, you say you don't really care to be married until after law school... late 20's. So, it's not like your vision of a happy life means getting married NOW or even terrifically soon. You're both young (yeah, I know, I know) and people do a LOT of growing and changing in their 20's, particularly if you're moving around, trying new things, doing more school, etc. SO, it's entirely possible that through the course of the next 4-5 years, marriage will come to be something that means something to him too.

And since you're not in a hurry for it, I'd say stick around and see, but don't get your hopes up. If you're 27 or 28 (when you say you'd like to think about marriage) and he still says 'Not my thing' then I'd say 'Move on.' As it is, I say stay, chill out, enjoy the ride, see what happens.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It is usually the girl who dreams of getting married. I seriously doubt most guys spend a lot of time thinking about it. But to me, it is a sign of commitment, pure and simple. If you love me enough, you''ll want me to be your wife, not a permanent girlfriend.

I would definitely not just leave now. But I do think this topic will have to come up again. I don''t think you should waste three more years if he never changes his mind. Are there divorces in his family? It may just be because he is young and his friends aren''t married yet. But those things will change in time. The next time you won''t be caught off guard. You can calmly say that you think it''s time to discuss future goals to be sure you''re both on the same track. He needs to understand that marriage and a family is very important to you, and something you aren''t able to give up.

 

[ljmorgan]

I feel like your situation is initially different from the typical "walk away!" scenario. Many cases that people post here, the men say they never want to get married... period. Or that they aren''t ready for that commitment. In your situation, it doesn''t seem like your boyfriend has an issue with the commitment, just the institution of marriage. He said that if you would leave him because of marriage, then he would marry you, and that shows that he really wants to be with you. Of course, I understand you want him to WANT to marry you!

Give this some time, and consider seeing a therapist together to see if you can work out his issues with marriage, and potentially come to some sort of compromise. Ultimately you may decide to part ways, but at least you will have given things your best shot!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Hey, Dreamer, quick question for you: How does he feel about having kids? Does he want them? What role does marriage have when having kids?

I agree with Deco, it sounds like he just doesn''t know what he wants. He''s only 24 and probably hasn''t really started thinking about having a family or figuring out what marriage means to him. I think in this situation it would be premature to leave (and I''m one who left when he wasn''t ready), just give it another 6 months or a year and re-evaluate. I think that when he starts thinking about it more seriously then you''ll be able to have a more pragmatic, less emotional discussion about it.

One other factor that might be playing a minor role here is that you just started living together. Maybe that step was overwhelming to him and he needs some time to settle in before thinking about the next step?

 

[Independent Gal]

Or alternatively, now with the new live-in situation, he''s got the ''why buy the cow?'' but...? Let''s hope not!

But I''m guessing it''s just cause he''s so young. Give that boy a little time, since you aren''t in a rush yourself!

 

[thedreamer]

You all have made me feel so much better. . . I think I''m just really used to reading the ''walk away'' posts of people that aren''t ready for commitment and I know thats not what I want. You are also all right that people grow and change, and don''t worry Indy Girl, I don''t mind you saying we are young because I completely agree! Thats why marriage wasn''t going to be in the plans for a few years. . . I want to be completely stable in finances and jobs before marriage because those are added stresses that aren''t necessary.

To answer the question about divorce in the family and about kids-- there are no divorces in his family, but there are in mine. The only thing is that his mom dated somebody that didn''t tell her he was married (his dad). She got pregnant and when she told him she was pregnant he told her he already had a family- and walked away, he doesn''t know his dad. His mom has since married a wonderful man and he has two much younger sisters ( 10 and . His situation with kids was that he never thought he wanted them until he met me, and now he wants to have a family with me. He hasn''t really spoken up on the issue of kids with our last names and not being married, even though I brought it up.

We do have a puppy together and she is wonderful and he is great with her. He is also amazing with his cousin''s son and his little cousins, so I know he will make a great dad someday.

I think I just needed to hear that its not a big deal now-- and I am scared to talk about it with anybody else. I know that my family ADORES him, and that doesn''t come easy. I swear every time I talk to my dad he wants to know when we are getting married and where its going to be and everything else. . . so its hard to have my dad asking and know that it may not ever happen.

As for the living with me so its not a big deal anymore thing- I know thats not the issue. He is taking a big chance by living with me because his parents are super christians and even though they love me and also ask when we are getting married, they are NOT fans of us living together. His mom means the world to him and I swear besides me, she is the only person who can get him upset or worried. . . so he''s not just living with me as an easy way out- its actually harder on him this way than if he just married me

Again thank you all so so so very much, you made me feel a lot better and I''m REALLY glad you didn''t say just walk away (even though I wouldn''t have listened because I love him

)

On a lighter note, it feels really good to be a part of PS now and not just a lurker anymore!!

 

[Independent Gal]

Well, welcome to PS!

I think we say ''Walk'' when two people want different things NOW, or, when two people want different things permanently. But since for the next few years, you don''t want marriage AND he doesn''t want marriage, you''re pretty compatible for the moment! If you were 33 and wanted kids I''d say ''Walk''. In fact, I''d say RUN! But as it is, it seems like a fine situation for you both for the next little while.

Just stop thinking about weddings and think about law school instead!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Not to play amateur therapist, but I''ll bet his hesitation has something to do with underlying feelings about being abandoned by his birth father. He just didn''t experience the two loving parent situation when he was little. Then came a step-father. But hopefully, in time, he can work through all that and move forward with marriage to YOU! It sounds like his mom will encourage him in that direction, too, since she isn''t as thrilled with the living together arrangement.

 

[luckystar112]

Do you think you might have freaked him out a little bit by looking on pricescope all the time after that talk? Just asking, because it seems like you guys were on the same page and had a timeline figured out and everything, but then all of a sudden you''re studying up on diamonds and showing him the site. Not that it''s abnormal to pick out what you want or anything, but maybe he panicked a little.

No?

Also, I don''t think 24 is SOOO young, (I''m 24) but it''s different in guys...especially when none of their friends are married. FI is 26, but I know that marriage wasn''t on his mind at all when he was 24. It wasn''t on any of his friend''s minds either. Weird how that works. Now we are engaged and his friends are all in serious relationships. It seems like everyone is a lot more mature now, even in as little as two years.

 

[Stardust]

I have a different take on it to some extent, but that may be because previous boyfriends didn''t take my "I never want to have children" seriously and I ended up in a couple relationships where people thought I''d change my mind while I thought they truly understood what I was saying and what that meant for us as a couple. About 8 years after those words were first uttered I still don''t want to have children and the two ex-bfs I keep in touch with still do.

While I do agree that 23/24 is young (not that I''m much older and my partner is that age) and waiting it out for a bit might be appropriate for your situation I also think that college is one of the best places to meet people and if he insists he doesn''t want to get married (and that remains important to you) then that needs to be taken at face value at some point.

 

[Independent Gal]

I agree with Stardust that having differing wants and goals needs to be taken into account at some point. ABSOLUTELY. And you should never, never marry, or even buy a house with someone that you know doesn''t want what you want, hoping they might change.

But it sounds like our OP isn''t ready for marriage or buying a house together yet either. So, maybe in 4 years or so when she IS ready for marriage he''ll have changed his mind, in which case great. And maybe he won''t have changed his mind, in which case she should move on, because at THAT point, they will be ready for and want different things. But right now, she''s not in a hurry, so she''s not ''wasting time'' or missing out on anything. And she should realize that it could go either way. Some people, men and women alike, never want to marry just as some never want kids.

Stardust is right that you should remain aware that he might NOT change his mind. But you''ve got time on your side in case he does.

Oh, and I''m not sure it''s pathalogical, something he needs therapy for, that he doesn''t want to be married at 24. I think it''s pretty normal. But that''s just me!

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I think when men (or women) say they don''t want kids or they don''t want marriage, you have to take it at face value. There''s no reason to lie about it and you have to respect that they are telling the truth.

In this case, he''s flip flopped. He wanted marriage, then he didn''t, then when he realize how much it meant he said he''d think about it more seriuosly. Doesn''t sound like a man who knows he definitely does or does not want marriage. Most recently he''s made it clear that he feels marriage is "just a piece of paper" and there''s no way to know if he''ll change is mind. Dreamer, should you expect that he will change? No. Are you willing to give it more time to see if his views change? Well that''s obvioulsy up to you and it sounds like something you''re willing to do. I have no doubt you know the risks and are willing to take them, though I don''t think it''s a bad idea to give yourself a timeframe for how long you''re willing to give it.

 

[ice_princess]

I have to agree with decodelight and all the other posters re the fact that you are both young, the waiting etc etc.
I just want to put something else out there for you to think about. You are 23. You love him. He obviously loves you too and it seems that for the moment you will both be fine because you weren't planning to get married for years anyway, HOWEVER (not shouting, just want to empasize how important I think this is), you might want to talk about it again soon because if he is really adamant about not getting married, you are going to waste so many years on a relationship that is going nowhere fast.
Think about it, if you wait until you finish your law degree and then bring it up again and he still says no, you will have to start from scratch with someone else because I doubt you would end up alone. Usually people who have been in long relationships have more trouble adapting to being alone. It usually takes a long time to get to that point in a relationship where you feel sure enough to get married.
Time flies and I'm just worried that you are going to keep dreaming about your wedding and getting engaged etc and he might still feel the same way after your studies and low and behold, by then you will be 28 and still not sure where it's going. What would be the point of hanging on to a relationship if you dream about something that is never going to happen? You will just be miserable for the rest of your life.
I'm definitely not saying leave him immediately. I'm all for fighting to save a relationship. bf and I have been together years and years and we've been through some tough times together. We don't plan to get married until 27/28 (after studies etc) so I'm completely in agreement with you on that, all I'm saying is make sure that the relationship you are putting so much time and effort into is going to be worth it in the end. Believe me, no-one is more into the whole fairy tale, happily-ever-after thing than I am but sometimes we have to give in and be a bit realistic.
Saying all that, he sounds like he is desperate not to give you up because of his comment about about marrying you anyway. Obviously his feelings for you are stronger that any misgivings he has about marriage so maybe he just needs a bit more time. I have a friend who was in a similar position. Her bf didn't want to get married because he saw what divorce did to his brother and they got over it in the end. He proposed and they bought a ring and everything and she never thought it was going to happen but now they've been married for almost a year and are blisfully happy. She gave him an ultimatum though, either marry her or she goes so maybe it's not really applicable to your situation.
Maybe you should give him a while yet, say a year or so and then talk about it again and if he still feels the same way about it I would re-evaluate the options then, but not before.
Oh, and it might be a good idea if you don't bring up the subject before then, at all, as in don't show him rings or talk about it or anything. Just stick to you little deadline in your head...

 

[lyra]

"Should I be Upset?" Yes, definitely. That's a perfectly normal reaction for you to have. He has flip-flopped, and it's a very emotional issue. I agree with Stardust. It has to at least be considered that he might not change his mind, that he might not come around, regardless of his own inner reasoning. If you are still okay with that, then that's what's right for you.

I've always personally maintained that 3 years is the make it or break it timeline for relationships. You either continue on happily after that point, or the relationship falls apart (mutually usually). Just a personal theory, nothing more. Maybe you could set a personal time limit (6 months, a year?) on how long you would want to stay in this relationship as it is, with his not wanting a firmer commitment. You are young, but I also agree that this is a time in your life where you could be meeting more people before you settle down.

It's really up to you and what you need from the relationship. Certainly it's best for both parties to agree. No one wants to just get engaged and married only to get divorced (or not make it to the wedding stage at all). These are big decisions. Good luck.

 

[risingsun]

I would give it some time, but I also wouldn't wait until I was out of law school to find out if he's changed his mind. Waiting for marriage, when that is what you both desire, is one thing. Waiting for your partner to make up his mind is quite another. I think you need to have a timeline to evaluate if progress is being made--or not. You can decide to stay with him, without marriage and accept it or resent it. You get married and he accepts it--or resents it. Or you decide what is best for you. I wouldn't marry someone who was doing it not to lose me. I think, at some point, you both will need to face this issue in a very open way. Counseling may prove helpful.

To answer your original question: If I were you, I would be upset!

 

[thedreamer]

Thank you again everybody for all of your comments!

Diamondseeker- I think you are probably right about having reservations due to that, and I try not to talk about it or bring up hurtful situations like that, even though he says that he doesn''t care. When I brought up kids outside of marriage he said that having kids outside of marriage doesn''t always turn out bad because look at him, he is successful and happy and he didn''t need his dad to get that way-- then pointing out that if there are two parents who have a child staying together, then the fact of marriage shouldn''t make a difference in the child''s happiness. I''m not exactly on the same page, but I let it go because if there''s not going to be a marriage at some point then there won''t be children because I personally don''t want to have kids without being married or at least an engagement and realistic prospects of marriage.

Luckystar- I think you are also right. . . to a point. He always tells me I''m weird when I show him rings and I started to feel like maybe he thought that I had flopped. I told him that I don''t want to be married for at least 4 more years, but then started looking at rings. I''m not a jewelry person normally, I have a lot but I tend not to wear any because it makes me feel ''fancy'' (another thing he likes to joke about). I think that because he knows I''m not normally into jewelry, my new interest was scary and then maybe he thought that when I said four years I meant next year for the engagement. I''m not sure but I have stressed that I''m serious about 4 years so I hope he is believing me! I also agree with a lot changing between 24 and 26. I know that for him, being successful and having a good job are very important. He was the first of his entire extended family (besides one uncle) to go to college and now he wants to go for his Ph.D. I think once he gets settled into the new university and gets on his way more that a lot will change. I''m not saying a lot will change in my favor, but I think we are both going to grow a lot during our next 3-6 years in school and I''m hoping that we will grow together

Stardust and NElady- This is something that I also know happens. I''m reading a book right now called ''Eat, Pray, Love'' and its about a woman who got married knowing she didn''t want to have kids and then just hoping one day she would. When the day came that her husband wanted kids, she had to leave because she knew she never wanted them. My parents are a product of pretending to want the same things for the sake of a relationship and theirs ended miserably. They weren''t honest and open and it hurt everybody in the process. I won''t do that. I love him so much, and right now being with him is perfect, I don''t need to marry him now, and I don''t want to marry him now so I don''t mind waiting and enjoying our relationship. If I get to law school and start stressing more than I should because I don''t think he is ever going to marry me, then I will leave. Or if I graduate and I know that I want to get married (and I don''t even want a wedding- I''m not a fan, I want a romantic getaway because we love to travel) and he still stands with not wanting to, then I will leave. I hope it doesn''t get to this point, but I am being realistic for myself and I know that I would never want him to marry me just because I want it. Thats the same as expecting me to stay just dating forever, and it wouldn''t be fair to either of us.

Iceprincess- I think I''m on the same page as you, I have a time in my head that I know is my limit. I don''t know if I could give him that ultimatum because thats like him saying to me: either stay just dating or I''m walking. If at that point in time we both feel equally as strong about what we want, ie: him just dating, me marriage, then I will leave. I''m not going to make him marry me because that can just bring up resentment later. .. and I''m not saying it will always because your friend seems to be in a great situation! I just know if he forced me to stay single it would always be in the back of my head and if we got into an argument that would, unfairly, be what I used to my defense.


Lyra- I agree that this is the perfect time to meet people and experience life. That is the exact reason that I spent four months in Prague this past spring. I wanted to make sure that my relationship was what I wanted forever, and after being away with hardly any phone contact due to the time difference (9 hours) we made it work. We emailed and skyped and did everything to be able to talk to each other as often as possible. I had a terrific time there and I met friends that I will have forever, most importantly I found out that I can survive without him. I don''t want to, obviously, but I know that I was happy even though we were apart and I know that I can be happy without him if he chooses not to marry me. I just don''t want it to end that way, but I am mentally preparing myself just in case

Sorry I''m so wordy with my responses! I need to learn to be more concise!!

 

[teetee]

I agree with ice princess. You should definitely give him more time and see if his views change but how long are you willing to wait? It is obvious that you feel very strongly about marriage and kids in your future.

Question - it sounds like he feels it would be okay to have children out of wedlock but you mentioned that his parents are super christians but is he? If he is a christian, I don''t see how he can say that marriage doesn''t make a difference in children''s happiness.

You sound like an independant, strong and successful person. Kudos to you and I wish you all the best. I hope that he will marry you because he truly wants to and not just because that''s what you want. Give it some time (but not too long) and see where he''s at in a year. It could just be that he is still not ready for marriage and you looking at rings is freaking him out!

 

[bee*]

I totally agree with ice-princess. Im all for the trying to keep with the relationship, but I wouldn''t wait until you were finished law school to find out one way or another, especially when you live together.